what about the bladelings?

And they're WotC IP which makes them totally untouchable anyway.

And they're WotC IP which makes them totally untouchable anyway.

James Jacobs wrote:

Eric Hinkle wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Jared Ouimette wrote:

The big question is...will there be a Volume 3?

I certainly hope so. We've got plans for more than 3 volumes in this series, in fact... so hopefully we'll do a lot more in the series!

But after you cover demons, devils, and daemons, who's left?

Plenty!

Asuras (evil outsiders that rise from the mistakes of the gods)
Daemons (physical manifestations of death)
Demodands (perhaps the mercenaries of chaos and evil or something like that)
Demons (the result of sinful mortal souls exposed to the raw nature of the Abyss)
Devils (fallen angels and heretics of faith)
Divs (corrupted genies)
Kytons (shadow-plane dwelling masochists who have been infused with some strange outer evil)
Oni (evil spirits bound into the flesh of a humanoid form)
Qlippoth (the original evil outsider race, perhaps the first source of evil)
Rakshasas (fiends who have abandoned links to the gods and the outer planes in order to try to rule the Material Plane)

Now, there'll certainly be some crossover here and there (expect to see a fair amount of talk about qlippoth and maybe a little about demodands in Lords of Chaos), but I could certainly see a book about all ten of these fiend races eventually!

I don't see "Republicans" on that list anywhere?

Actually, the little dems/repub's tet-a-tet got me thinking;

with the polarized nature of alignments and their customary host of outsiders, I feel you tend to lose in varying degrees the story-generating conflicts brought about by if not moral ambiguity then at least relativism.

Think about two tribes or cultures.
One has a great culture hero, the "Audacious Hoper" the other is the ancient "Great Communicator."
If you ask the children of the Audacious Hoper, the Great Communicator is this ancient lich that brought about 1,000 years of winter with his Raygun and his dementia.
If yo ask the Cultists of the Great Communicator, they hearken back to his glory days and firmly believe the egotistical Godking will bring upon us hell on earth.
Neither group, of course, necessarily animates the dead, summons infernal forces, or does bad things to people when the stars are right....or maybe some of the more extreme ones do. Hey-what do they say about ends and means?

No, in D&D anyway, reality has a polarized bias.....

Knoq Nixoy wrote:

what about the bladelings?

They were never really true outsiders, it being highly suggested that they were effectively a true-breeding sort of tiefling descended from or created by an earlier race on Acheron.

And they're WotC IP which makes them totally untouchable anyway.

I wish this was out now, my group is in the Abyss! Guess I will just have to pull out my other books with which to kill them.

<snip>Think about two tribes or cultures.</snip>

...sorry, I was having a Frankie moment.

Well, as I have read Book of the Damned Vol 1, and really enjoyed it I can't wait for Vol 2: Lords of Chaos. And I think it's great that James Jacobs is the author of this one... he really is right? (It's not one of those "placeholder" things?) From what I've read here of everyone's posts I'm going to believe that Mr. Jacobs is indeed the author, until otherwise corrected.

And, as an aside, I really liked most (if not all) of the list of potential "Books of the Damned" candidates.

Oh, and I really like the Proteans, and would love to see similar treatment for them, but I don't feel that they are "Damned" per se, so maybe another "blanket" term for them (and possibly other non-evil/non-good outsiders?)

And a book of Celestials would be neat too. (Y'know in your spare time, and while I'm wishing.) ;-)

Peace

~Dean; the Minstrel Wyrm

On the subject of other outsider races, I cannot wait to see what the proposed for Bestiary II true nuetral outsider race is!

Actually, the little dems/repub's tet-a-tet got me thinking;

with the polarized nature of alignments and their customary host of outsiders, I feel you tend to lose in varying degrees the story-generating conflicts brought about by if not moral ambiguity then at least relativism.

Think about two tribes or cultures.
One has a great culture hero, the "Audacious Hoper" the other is the ancient "Great Communicator."
If you ask the children of the Audacious Hoper, the Great Communicator is this ancient lich that brought about 1,000 years of winter with his Raygun and his dementia.
If yo ask the Cultists of the Great Communicator, they hearken back to his glory days and firmly believe the egotistical Godking will bring upon us hell on earth.
Neither group, of course, necessarily animates the dead, summons infernal forces, or does bad things to people when the stars are right....or maybe some of the more extreme ones do. Hey-what do they say about ends and means?

No, in D&D anyway, reality has a polarized bias.....

I am indeed writing this book; this is one case where me as the placeholder author is correct.

I am indeed writing this book; this is one case where me as the placeholder author is correct.

On the subject of other outsider races, I cannot wait to see what the proposed for Bestiary II true nuetral outsider race is!

Personally, unless it's the rilmani, I'm not too interested in Paizo's version unless they keep them the same and just change the copyrighted name of "rilmani" to something else. Do the Bill Gates thing, pretty much.

I'd rather see 3 volumes of "Books of the Exalted" after these 3 volumes of Books of the Damned. Archons, Elad---er--Azati, and Guardin---cough---Agathions. No room for Angels...hmm...maybe 4 volumes?

Two volumes on Law and Chaos would be sweet, for proteans and axiomites/inevitables.

We've actually switched to listing "Paizo Staff" when we need a placeholder author.

Book of the Damned Vol. 3
Author: Pope Pius III

Book of the Damned Vol. 4
Author: Your momma

Etc.

Personally, unless it's the rilmani, I'm not too interested in Paizo's version unless they keep them the same and just change the copyrighted name of "rilmani" to something else. Do the Bill Gates thing, pretty much.

Personally, unless it's the rilmani, I'm not too interested in Paizo's version unless they keep them the same and just change the copyrighted name of "rilmani" to something else. Do the Bill Gates thing, pretty much.

Razz wrote:

Personally, unless it's the rilmani, I'm not too interested in Paizo's version unless they keep them the same and just change the copyrighted name of "rilmani" to something else. Do the Bill Gates thing, pretty much.

We can't do anything with the rilmani. They're closed content. Our Neutral outsider race is gonna be something entirely different, and I'm actually really stoked to see how they end up looking, because the concepts we did for them are really fun.

James Jacobs wrote:

Razz wrote:

Personally, unless it's the rilmani, I'm not too interested in Paizo's version unless they keep them the same and just change the copyrighted name of "rilmani" to something else. Do the Bill Gates thing, pretty much.

We can't do anything with the rilmani. They're closed content. Our Neutral outsider race is gonna be something entirely different, and I'm actually really stoked to see how they end up looking, because the concepts we did for them are really fun.

And they are? :D

Still top secret, alas.

James Jacobs wrote:

Still top secret, alas.

*tries to sneak a peek*

"Tell my wife I said hello."

Todd Stewart wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Still top secret, alas.

*tries to sneak a peek*

*peeks over Todd's shoulder to try and get a look*

That's two times I've asked! Maybe with the third round I'll be more lucky!

*flicks lye in Todd, Adams and vagrant eyes* No peeking, it's not in the spirit of the holiday.

No Futurama fans today, eh?

"Tell my wife I said hello."

Aside from the public declaration, that's a helluva deal!

Three whole people for an outsider race? Sold!

Those Damn neutrals you never know what there thinking.

We've actually switched to listing "Paizo Staff" when we need a placeholder author.

(Story for the interested: Every year just a few weeks before the end of the semester, our school would put out a catalog listing all classes being offered the next semester, including times and professors. If it was as yet unknown who would be teaching the class, the catalog simply said, "Staff."

The sole Japanese language instructor (who was already busy teaching four different classes that semester) was not yet listed as being the instructor for the next semester's classes for some reason. He told the class that yes, he was really "Staff-Sensei," and he was very busy.

"I am Staff-Sensei. See right here? Intermediate Japanese. That's me, and it says "Staff." Yes, I am Staff-Sensei. I teach history, physics, chemistry. I am very, very smart. You should all be smart like me, Staff-Sensei.")

Razz wrote:

Personally, unless it's the rilmani, I'm not too interested in Paizo's version unless they keep them the same and just change the copyrighted name of "rilmani" to something else. Do the Bill Gates thing, pretty much.

That's a kind of pointless attitude, what if their better? Clearly the Rilmani didn't fly, so maybe this race will be far more engaging and actually warrant some use and attention, I don't think paizo would plan them out and have them boring, I don't just understand why anything except a Rilmani clone is suitable.

Proteans have a very different flavor to slaadi [SUMMON KAEYOSS, PROTEAN ADVOCATOR], and frankly daemons are WAY different in that regard to yugoloths who always seemed like slightly more amenable, mercenary fiends, daemons are the LAST fiend a mortal wouldm truck with, they are death and the apocalypse, FAR far from a knock-off, and certainly not cheap. I love daemons, while yugoloths never bothered me, same with sladd to be honest. Axiomites are awesome too!

And I can't see these guys even having a similarity to the rilmani, in theme or whatever. So oyu can use all the old ones if you choose, of course, thats why its compatible.

But, cheap knock-offs! PFFT! I say sir! PFFT!

Is it ok if it's simply because I like the Rilmani as is? Anything else will feel like a cheap knock-off. I already have to deal with daemons being the new "yugoloths" and I use the proteans as an elder outsider race on Limbo that have been there way before the slaadi (like how the obyriths were in the Abyss long before the tanar'ri). No offense to anyone, though, especially the creativeness of Paizo. I'd love to give a look over their version of Neutral outsiders and if I like them, they'll probably be a rilmani offshoot or creation or something in my games, or I'll figure out something.

In any case, it's simply not possible for us to do anything with many of the D&D outsider races; slaadi, rilmani, and a few others just aren't open content and I would prefer to respect WotC enough not to try to replace those races with photocopies. Hence, the proteans are pretty different thematically and appearancewise from slaadi. Our neutral race will be even MORE different than the rilmani.

Our neutral race will be even MORE different than the rilmani.

Razz wrote:

Is it ok if it's simply because I like the Rilmani as is? Anything else will feel like a cheap knock-off. I already have to deal with daemons being the new "yugoloths" and I use the proteans as an elder outsider race on Limbo that have been there way before the slaadi (like how the obyriths were in the Abyss long before the tanar'ri). No offense to anyone, though, especially the creativeness of Paizo. I'd love to give a look over their version of Neutral outsiders and if I like them, they'll probably be a rilmani offshoot or creation or something in my games, or I'll figure out something.

Nevermind the fact that yugoloths are, to me, the "new daemons" since the word yugoloth didn't exist until the 2nd edition of D&D when TSR wanted to avoid accusations that their game promoted devil-worship and changed the names of all the devils, demons, and daemons to made-up nonsense words... so I can see where you're coming from.

In any case, it's simply not possible for us to do anything with many of the D&D outsider races; slaadi, rilmani, and a few others just aren't open content and I would prefer to respect WotC enough not to try to replace those races with photocopies. Hence, the proteans are pretty different thematically and appearancewise from slaadi. Our neutral race will be even MORE different than the rilmani.

I dunno, the guys that did Tome of Horrors received permission from WotC to do their 1st volume (two of which, as mentioned before, are slaad lords but whatever). Is WotC now too hostile to ask for permission on specific other creatures everyone knows they probably won't ever bother with? The list is small, I am sure, but I'm sure there're a few jewels.

Oh don't get me wrong, thematically fitting Paizo's daemons with WotC's yugoloths is easy. They're both similar enough, so no complaints really. Just using an example.

Yeah, as for Paizo being unique, I somewhat agree with that. I just take Pathfinder's "backwards-compatible, keep your game the same as before just with some new updates" to heart. And, to me, slaad, rilmani, modrons, and such were as "D&D" to me as the main 5 metallic dragons always being Gold, Silver, Copper, Bronze, and Brass (not this Adamatine and Iron crap 4E has going). So I use Paizo's stuff, like I said earlier, as either good substitutes or additions (new inevitables for Law plane, Proteans as primordial Limbo beings, Daemons as Yugoloths). Well, anything having to do with beyond the Material Plane anyway, I blame Planescape for that and it got worse when all campaigns followed the same theme, though I like that because it provides consistency (I lost a part of my soul seeing what they did with the cosmology in 4E).

I personally like to find ways to keep that theme, and I know a suggestion of mine won't be considered but the voice had to at least be heard. I will admit it's my fault for assuming Pathfinder was to be a carbon-copy of WotC's 3.5e, I knew better. Blame the hole 4E blasted in my favorite pasttime, honestly.

Is WotC now too hostile to ask for permission on specific other creatures everyone knows they probably won't ever bother with? The list is small, I am sure, but I'm sure there're a few jewels.

I dunno, the guys that did Tome of Horrors received permission from WotC to do their 1st volume (two of which, as mentioned before, are slaad lords but whatever). Is WotC now too hostile to ask for permission on specific other creatures everyone knows they probably won't ever bother with? The list is small, I am sure, but I'm sure there're a few jewels.

In the end... it's just not good business sense for Paizo at this time to seek a license from WotC to use the 11 or so monsters they've held back (and I very much doubt such permissions or licenses would be given anyway, even if we asked). We've had MUCH greater success striking out on our own.

<snip> I just take Pathfinder's "backwards-compatible, keep your game the same as before just with some new updates" to heart. And, to me, slaad, rilmani, modrons, and such were as "D&D" to me as the main 5 metallic dragons always being Gold, Silver, Copper, Bronze, and Brass (not this Adamatine and Iron crap 4E has going). So I use Paizo's stuff, like I said earlier, as either good substitutes or additions (new inevitables for Law plane, Proteans as primordial Limbo beings, Daemons as Yugoloths). <snip>

But as James said, for Paizo's own, they are carving their own path and finding their own critters to populate and play with. I like it, myself, as it keeps things fresh, and my players won't necessarily know what I'm pulling out of the hat.

Since I've whole heartedly embraced Golarion as my campaign setting, I'm not likely to use monsters that "break" the assumptions of the world, such as outsiders that presuppose a given cosmology.

That having been said, there are lots of monsters that can still show up as "something that's pretty rare" from across the various monster manuals, and even using my own logic, its not impossible for something from another cosmology to "break the veil" and end up where it shouldn't.

Heck, if Fritz Leiber can do it by bringing Norse gods into his own cosmology on a cosmic fluke, its good enough for my games from time to time.