That's a significant addition. Anyone have thoughts on what might be included?

Maghelm wrote:

That's a significant addition. Anyone have thoughts on what might be included?

Prestige Classes for sure. Spells that were not included in Beta for space reasons. Some more DM tools. And other stuff that escapes me right now.

420 pages!!??! WOW

I totally agree this seems like the way to go. Forget 4th edition make mine Pathfinder.

I am playing with the beta version softback now. So far it has been well received by my group and we plan to stay with Pathfinder when this hardcover is released. I do hope the cover art will be new and exciting stuff. The only other art I would like to see replaced is the racial comparison chart. Those low polygon count characters in their underwear make me think of Nintendo 64 graphics.

I believe that there will be ways that some people will qualify for a free PDF, but I don't think it's concrete yet.

If I pre-order my copy now, do I get a free PDF?

There's been talk of a rules supplement sub. Perhaps that'll get the free pdf?

"It's less expensive than the 3.5 core rulebooks it replaces"

My problem with this statement is that for people who already own the 3.5 core rulebooks its is an additional $49.99 to spend, as it has become apparent that the rules have changed enough that you won't be able to play in a PF RPG game using the 3.5 core books.

I see Pathfinder RPG as just a d20 fantasy system now, something to use to play in the Golarion setting and required to play in Season 1+ of the Pathfinder Society organised play campaign.

So to me the comparison would be with the likes of Conan 2nd Edition ($39.99) and FantasyCraft ($39.95).

Still it does seem PF RPG will be giving us a lot of content for the money (but that content isn't as valuable to me as it is so similar to what I already own) and is cheaper than the three D&D4e core books.

Not having either of your examples, I have to ask...

Just can't wait to play 3.5 in a setting rivalling my favourite world which was Forgotten Realms!

Not having either of your examples, I have to ask...

How plug and play are Conan and Fantasy craft to WOTC supliments?

However, to be clear my statements above, were in relation to my perspective on the Pathfinder RPG, and so whilst I don't imagine either Conan or FantasyCraft are particularly plug & play with WOTC suppliments, I have come to the opinion that Pathfinder RPG is not compatible enough for me to bother trying to plug & play either. If I want to use WOTC supplements I will use D&D3.5.

I recognise that yourself & others will feel differently, but then if you & others have WOTC supplements to plug & play with I imagien you also already own the 3.5 core books, so my point about PF RPG being an additional cost still stands.

Are their respective publishers going to continue to support those lines?

Is there a 'Living' Conan?

I just ran my first 'real' Pathfinder Society game last night (as opposed to my bi-weekly game with friends and their family) and had a blast.

If I pick up Pathfinder RPG and get comfortable enough with it I may continue to be a GM in Season 1+, otherwise I may drop to just playing it, or even drop out and look elsewhere for a 3.5 living game (such as Living Arcanis).

Although I do now own the D&D 4e PHB (and am enjoying what I read) I am not a fan of the Forgotten Realms so that living campaign is not as appealing. Mind you, if as a player I can't find enough PFS games and I really want a living campaign I may decide to bite the bullet and go LFR.

Vic Wertz wrote:

I believe that there will be ways that some people will qualify for a free PDF, but I don't think it's concrete yet.

Any news on how people can get the hardcopy with a free PDF?

I am playing with the beta version softback now. So far it has been well received by my group and we plan to stay with Pathfinder when this hardcover is released. I do hope the cover art will be new and exciting stuff. The only other art I would like to see replaced is the racial comparison chart. Those low polygon count characters in their underwear make me think of Nintendo 64 graphics.

-Lisa

There will be a new Wayne Reynolds cover for the RPG hardcover. The finished art hit our offices last week and will be unveiled sometime in the future. As for the racial comparison chart, that has been on the new art list for quite some time.

-Lisa

As for the racial comparison chart, that has been on the new art list for quite some time.

-Lisa

I have been using the Beta book for a while now and dearly wish it had an index. Please include a good index in the final hardcopy, for a book like that it is invaluable. I know compiling a good index for a book of that length is a very difficult and costly undertaking, but it would really enhance its usefulness.

BTW, I hated the index in the 3.5 PHB. IMO, it was the worst part of the book.

What we also need is a PF Dungeonm Master Guide. That way it makes the game unique yet also allowing those who only like 3.5. to use it also.

What we also need is a PF Dungeonm Master Guide. That way it makes the game unique yet also allowing those who only like 3.5. to use it also.

Thanks for the information PW. It makes sense too. Why have two seperate books that really complement each other be seperate. I could understand for a game such as Gurps. Never did understand that about D&D.

I have been using the Beta book for a while now and dearly wish it had an index. Please include a good index in the final hardcopy, for a book like that it is invaluable. I know compiling a good index for a book of that length is a very difficult and costly undertaking, but it would really enhance its usefulness.

BTW, I hated the index in the 3.5 PHB. IMO, it was the worst part of the book.

Not cheap, but cheaper than upgrading to 4.0

Paizo may want to make clear that this serves as both the PG and DMG else the many will assume that the Core book is only half of a pair.

Lisa Stevens wrote:

As for the racial comparison chart, that has been on the new art list for quite some time.

-Lisa

Might I recommend getting Hugo Solis aka. Butterfrog to do it?

Ross Byers wrote:

Is there any news regarding this being on the Chronicles subscription and/or free PDFs with purchase?

It definitely will NOT be part of the Chronicles subscription. We still have a year or so to figure out the answer to the PDF question....

because i want my big book, but the PDF is definitively quite useful, so with the Pathfinder Bestiary

Ross Byers wrote:

Lisa Stevens wrote:

As for the racial comparison chart, that has been on the new art list for quite some time.

-Lisa

Might I recommend getting Hugo Solis aka. Butterfrog to do it?

I would like to second this. Hugo's art is fantastic.

Not cheap, but cheaper than upgrading to 4.0

Who is Hugo Solis and where might I have seen his art? I tried Googling but came up with a musician and his band, not a graphic artist.

Who is Hugo Solis and where might I have seen his art? I tried Googling but came up with a musician and his band, not a graphic artist.

Who is Hugo Solis and where might I have seen his art? I tried Googling but came up with a musician and his band, not a graphic artist.

edit: ninjaed-by Kessu!

edit: ninjaed-by Kessu!

Also, be sure to check out the other Paizo artists while you're on DA Davelozzi. There's a lot of great talent there, though I think it's generally agreed that Hugo's the best of us.

meh Kessu :P (lol not always being the first is good :P)

there is also another thead monsters drawing a lot smaller but with interesting things

also there is the unofficial Paizonia! Comic Strip (yeah they still haven't decided name, but i like Paizonia!

i like pathfinder, but the differences between it and WoTC's 3.5 are so subtle that i end up disappointed when so many obviously broken WoTC 3.5 mechanics issues aren't addressed at all.. so why reprint 99% the same content under a new design? it seems like a missed opportunity to make the game better. can anyone give me a good reason to see things differently?

560 pages .... .my leguminous teeth are chattering in anticipation!

i like pathfinder, but the differences between it and WoTC's 3.5 are so subtle that i end up disappointed when so many obviously broken WoTC 3.5 mechanics issues aren't addressed at all.. so why reprint 99% the same content under a new design? it seems like a missed opportunity to make the game better. can anyone give me a good reason to see things differently?

i agree many issues are not solved with PF (which i won't repeat here... i try to not whine in public :P) but many other are being solved

Fighter is a better and round class
skills in general work better and is less confusing to make high level characters or characters at all
races and classes are certianly stronger, but many of the last classes & races brought by WotC and3rd party editorials are quite powerful, so the original ones were not atractive or were suboptimal, more people organizing their character around a tight evolution so they will beable to take one or to her prestigue class, single classes have beenmade more attractive.

Mi main complains with 3.5 is "planned obsolescence"

Edit: sight and i think i did whine after all

if you are at certian level and if you don't have certain quantity or type of magic items your character in general is useless, so characters become Christmas trees walking syndromes... this is a rule that i dislike, and i think it happens for 2 reasons how monsters are created.. and 3.5 nerfing of magic, as much of the magic duration and effects are the same this issue is not being solved by the time being, we will see if it is.

I myself i am in love with Paizo's quality and integral work, many of their changes are excellent... and for the last issue and another i have (half the classes having 2 skill points + int mod, which limits them, while cripples the sorcerer and fighter making them pretty of not a lot of use outside their areas specialization [casting spells & fighting] and i would prefer them having more opportunities to help the team and have greater circunstances to roleplay by not forcing them into not being able to do anything but their role) well in duetime i solve them with houserules... which we all do.

anyway i only need to know if another friend will ask a physical copy to preorder this and the PF beastiary or i just preorder mine and heask for the PDF

shmeck, i hope i did any sense

JZ wrote:

Not cheap, but cheaper than upgrading to 4.0

Unless you are just a player and don't need or want all the DM information.

if you are at certian level and if you don't have certain quantity or type of magic items your character in general is useless, so characters become Christmas trees

Montalve wrote:

if you are at certian level and if you don't have certain quantity or type of magic items your character in general is useless, so characters become Christmas trees

this is also my main gripe with 3.5, and it is not addressed in PF. also, tracking spell durations (and math in general) becomes incredibly tedious above 9th level, especially for the DM. i also hate to whine, but the big issues don't seem to be addressed in the PF beta. i was really hoping they would be.

anyway i already preordered my copy and the bestiary, mine and another for a friend... so i am in...

Very disappointed.

When I first heard that Paizo decided to be the successor of the mantle of 3.5, I exclaimed in excitement.
But on reading the beta version, I am sorely disappointed.
It's just another unsorted/pointless gigantic set of house-rule.
And you guys seem to miss the glaring weaknesses of 3.5 mechanisms and failed to address/correct them, just adding even more complexity to the already headbangingly complex 3.5 ruleset.

1. 3.0/3.5 had a serious balance & fun factor issue between caster vs melee(including archer).
While casters can cast whole lot of astounding, powerful and spectacular spells of different kinds, melee character can do nothing but dealing damage.

Most of your new rules still focus on dealing damage(well indirectly, but consequently). Come on, they don't need more damage. It's already over the top!(heck, melee damage should be nerfed) It's diversity and functionality that they achingly need.

To correct this, you guys have to introduce a whole new system like Tome of Battle, or new feats that breach the limit of the conventional feat system(perhaps you should dump or revamp most of the old feats).

2. 3.0/3.5 had a skill redunduncy and unfair distribution of skills(and skill points) among classes.
Some of redunduncy problem is resolved, but it's still there.
Reduce the number of skills. You can.

And the unfair distribution is untouched.
Pathfinder fighter in the social interaction is not much better than 3.5 fighter in social interaction.

3. Too complex mechanisms and rules.
Trip, Grapple, Turn Undead, Feint, and ect.
They are way to complicated and become useless, pointless or tedius way too soon.

I wish my comment could be of help. I really wish.

I wish my comment could be of help. I really wish.

somethings get adressed, somethings not

things are seen by every people in different lights, please check the developers forums, there are a few changes that James and Jason and the rest have put for us

but there is a point i agree with you: the Fighter should be a person, not just a damagedealer

alleynbard wrote:

JZ wrote:

Not cheap, but cheaper than upgrading to 4.0

Unless you are just a player and don't need or want all the DM information.

even players need access to at least some in the DMG, point buy systems and character creation was in the DMG, not to mention the magical items listing. the amount of info in the DMG that is pertinent to DMs only is actually quite small. nearly every player in my group has a DMG as well as PHB. only the two newest players do not

Don't get me wrong, I am buying the book. But this is a much harder sell for some of my players.

That's nice for you. Since we are discussing anecdotes, let me tell you my own. My players often do not buy nor need the DMG. In the 20 years I have GMed (through 3 editions/not including OD&D), even with my current group of 12, only three players have ever purchased a DMG. If they desperately need something they borrow mine at the table. I have never restricted the purchase of the book. They simply have never found a need to buy it. It should be noted my group is rather diverse in its commitment to the game and its family/economic spectrum. Therefore, being a rather active DM, I often provide the information for them via handouts or simple repetition from the book. Everything else comes out on a "need to know" basis or isn't needed at all. I hardly think I am alone in that. I also think I am hardly alone in having a group that balks at a $50 price tag. It practically begs for my players to purchase this book on ebay instead of through Paizo or at the FLGS. If they even want to purchase it at all, since no matter what price they purchase it at, some of them will see it as wasted money.

Don't get me wrong, I am buying the book. But this is a much harder sell for some of my players.

but at least for me paying 60 dlls for 2 books plus shipping for both... its lots more expensive than paying 50 + shipping for one

also i have learned to love all encompasing rulebooks like Arcana Evolved and A Game of Thrones RPGs, with a single book i have everything i need to play

also it would be rather complciated and expensive now turn a whole book into 2 for Paizo

i am sure most of us understand your tables problems

my recommendation? if all the price will fall over you, buy the main book for yourself, you have also 12 players if they don't want or need to buy such a big book ask 10 books from each of them (10 bucks they can spare) that makes 120 dlls... more than enought to get 2 extra books for your table that anyone of them could borrow, or that can be passed in and out of the game table

economy right now is not ready for big expenditures... but if your group of players is tight i don't see the problem of this

just for god's sake check who has the book if you move out of town! lol that is how i lost Oriental Adventures (yes we bought in group a feek books, in the end we each took one, snif mine was Oriental Adventures :P)

[quote ]i agree Alleynbard in that Pathfinder is too big a book, i also usually provided what was needed on my gaming table, and sure not every player even gets the player's handbook

I would tend to disagree. As a game master I find it frustrating to have to jump back and forth between two books to find certain rules. Rarely have I had any player buy their own book, they usually use mine. When a player does buy his own books they tend to move towards wanting to DM their own game as well.

I'm sure each of our own experiences are different, but I'm quite happy to see the whole game system in one book and the monsters in another.

I would like to add that my first impression (and continuing impression) of Pathfinder is that it's vastly more readable than the 3.5 books. As I use the system I find very minor things that I would like changed, but overall it's a much easier system to use and it's much easier to understand (even though the beta doesn't have an index). I enjoyed it enough to download the free PDF and then buy the softcover.

As with everything in this game, the one book vs. two books thing is a balance. I'm happy with the single book concept and I'm very happy that we have a new and well supported 3.5 gaming system rather than having to move to the 4e system.

I'm sure each of our own experiences are different, but I'm quite happy to see the whole game system in one book and the monsters in another.

I would like to add that my first impression (and continuing impression) of Pathfinder is that it's vastly more readable than the 3.5 books. As I use the system I find very minor things that I would like changed, but overall it's a much easier system to use and it's much easier to understand (even though the beta doesn't have an index). I enjoyed it enough to download the free PDF and then buy the softcover.

As with everything in this game, the one book vs. two books thing is a balance. I'm happy with the single book concept and I'm very happy that we have a new and well supported 3.5 gaming system rather than having to move to the 4e system.

i tried to get my own pathfinder RPG Beta but it went out of stock too soon :P

now i wait for the Final Product :D

My gaming group and myself have enjoyed the 3.5 system since it came out. Sure a few things were messed up, but we fixed those with house rules and enjoyed the system. 4.0 was far too different and we didn't enjoy it. We planned on sticking with 3.5 (we have enough stuff to use for the next handful of year anyway) and the Pathfinder Game was an opportunity to improve on it. We were not looking for massive widespread changes, or that defeats the purpose. Just enough to fix old problems and make it fun learning some of the changes. Paizo have done this in our opinion. We bought, and downloaded, the BETA rules and my players and I are happy with it. There are a couple of outstanding items, but nothing serious. I am looking forward to the final printing and each of our players has committed to purchasing the book. We are also very happy with the new setting and the support material. It is a win-win for us. We tend not to get overly worked up about rules and more about having a fun gaming experience.

So Paizo, work out them final issues and send it to the printer!

Will the weight of the book be over 4 pounds? :-)

I do hope the cover art will be new and exciting stuff. The only other art I would like to see replaced is the racial comparison chart. Those low polygon count characters in their underwear make me think of Nintendo 64 graphics.

Will the weight of the book be over 4 pounds? :-)

Tom Green wrote:

I do hope the cover art will be new and exciting stuff. The only other art I would like to see replaced is the racial comparison chart. Those low polygon count characters in their underwear make me think of Nintendo 64 graphics.

I know this is something of a delayed blast response, but I like the artist who did the current race-chart. His/her stuff has a just-slightly-abstract look to it that I find expressive. And as I recall, he/she did the artwork for Bruthazmus (one of my favorite bits of Pathfinder art,) in Burnt Offerings, which I found much more bogeyman creepy (surreal, like a child's iconic imagining of a hungry, shaggy monster under the bed,) than the tiny-head bruisers in Classic Monsters Revisited.

Guess I will weigh in on the whole one book vs two book debate. I do not really have a preference but have no problem with one book. I actually do plan to buy several copies for my groups so they can use them at home.

For my use I found with BETA that I printed it and put it in a tabbed notebook. I love this option and doubt that I will even use the hardcover myself (although it will be on my shelf and at the table of course. I also like the PDF to search for something. I get that at times things are hard to find in the BETA rules and when that happens I just bring up the PDF and do a search. Only compaint about that is I was preparing for the final encounter of Rise of the Runelords and found that the spell names were not searchable. It was a pain because I cut and pasted all the spells that the BBEG has into a separate document and made a separate notebook for him so when the encounter goes down I have everthing I need in one place and do not have to look up spells.

I also wrote out a plan of how I would like those spells to be used so i will have strategized in advance for the climax of over a year of gaming and I hope to run this encounter well for our heroes. Right now I am convinced that we will have a near TPK but that is before the group pulls out Bigby's Interposing Wrench and throws it in the works.

Beta hardcopy is amazing...

Playtesting is sublime...

Roll on the release!