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Kvantum
(Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Roleplaying Game, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber)
Does anybody else think Goblins as PCs are a bit on the broken side now? +4 to Dex and a +4 size bonus to Stealth and a +4 racial bonus to Stealth? A 1st level Goblin Rogue with a 19 Dex (15 base +4) and a net +16 Stealth check (1 rank +3 class +4 Dex +4 racial +4 size)? A +19 if he or she takes Skill Focus (Stealth)? A 3.5 Goblin only had a +2 to Dex and a +4 racial to Move Silently alone - still had the +4 size bonus to Hide, alright, but not a racial bonus on top of that. Halflings don't get to carry over their 3.5 racial bonus to Move Silently as a racial bonus to Stealth, so why should Goblins?
I'm just having an issue with any skill having a +19 modifier easily accessible at 1st level.
Edit: To get even more twinky with it, 10th level Goblin Rogue with a 23 Dex (15+4 racial +2 levels +2 Belt of Incredible Dexterity), Skill Focus (Stealth) and Stealthy feats, a Cloak of Elvenkind, and a Ring of Invisibility (all easily accessible to a 10th level character (assumed wealth 62,000 gp). 10 ranks, +6 Dex, +3 class, +5 Cloak, +20 invisible, +4 Stealthy, +6 Skill Focus, +4 racial, +4 size = a +62 Stealth check. O_O.
Does anybody else think Goblins as PCs are a bit on the broken side now? +4 to Dex and a +4 size bonus to Stealth and a +4 racial bonus to Stealth? A 1st level Goblin Rogue with a 19 Dex (15 base +4) and a net +16 Stealth check (1 rank +3 class +4 Dex +4 racial +4 size)? A +19 if he or she takes Skill Focus (Stealth)? A 3.5 Goblin only had a +2 to Dex and a +4 racial to Move Silently alone - still had the +4 size bonus to Hide, alright, but not a racial bonus on top of that. Halflings don't get to carry over their 3.5 racial bonus to Move Silently as a racial bonus to Stealth, so why should Goblins?
I'm just having an issue with any skill having a +19 modifier easily accessible at 1st level.
Edit: To get even more twinky with it, 10th level Goblin Rogue with a 23 Dex (15+4 racial +2 levels +2 Belt of Incredible Dexterity), Skill Focus (Stealth) and Stealthy feats, a Cloak of Elvenkind, and a Ring of Invisibility (all easily accessible to a 10th level character (assumed wealth 62,000 gp). 10 ranks, +6 Dex, +3 class, +5 Cloak, +20 invisible, +4 Stealthy, +6 Skill Focus, +4 racial, +4 size = a +62 Stealth check. O_O.
I don't know, but maybe they lose some of that stuff if they become a PC class/character. From the looks of it the goblin on the preview actually had nothing bad about him, i.e. nothing negative with regard to stats or abilities. A PC version might end up being a bit more stripped out and toned down (as they suggested in one of the design bubbles). Does that mean that there will be a player character version vs. a Bestiary one. As a DM I sure as hell hope so.
I don't have a problem with it as a DM, it gives me some baseline sneaky goblins without crappy skill scores. I don't think it would (or even should) directly translate over into a PC usable race.
Of course I would keep all his perks if I stated him out as an NPC with real class levels to throw at the pcs.
Sucks to be a hero.
The tengu was a pleasant surprise indeed! And the crag linnorm is appropriately monstrous.
Now, as for complaints... the riding dog is CR 1/2. The wolf is CR 1.
The riding dog does an average of 2 more points of damage per attack. The wolf has an AC 1 higher and 10 feet more movement speed.
Explain to me how this makes sense.
The tengu was a pleasant surprise indeed! And the crag linnorm is appropriately monstrous.
Now, as for complaints... the riding dog is CR 1/2. The wolf is CR 1.
The riding dog does an average of 2 more points of damage per attack. The wolf has an AC 1 higher and 10 feet more movement speed.
Explain to me how this makes sense.
Because you can just tell the dog to "sit."
The tengu was a pleasant surprise indeed! And the crag linnorm is appropriately monstrous.
Now, as for complaints... the riding dog is CR 1/2. The wolf is CR 1.
The riding dog does an average of 2 more points of damage per attack. The wolf has an AC 1 higher and 10 feet more movement speed.
Explain to me how this makes sense.
Because, especially at low levels, trip is an absolute pain in the rear.
chopswil
(Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Roleplaying Game, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber)
Because, especially at low levels, trip is an absolute pain in the rear.
Now, as for complaints... the riding dog is CR 1/2. The wolf is CR 1.The riding dog does an average of 2 more points of damage per attack. The wolf has an AC 1 higher and 10 feet more movement speed.
Explain to me how this makes sense.
See, that was my original thought too. Except that riding dogs also have trip. And, due to their higher Str scores, are better at it than wolves are.
This preview is *AMAZING*... great art (I can't wait to show that moldy skeleton to my players!) and a greatly improved layout is the first thing I noticed -- in fact, this may be the most gorgeous monster book I've yet seen! Plus those small icons are really nifty; I love them!
As far as the monster stats go, some abilities are more clearly worded or simplified from 3E... and those 'quick templates' are a great idea! The same applies to variations for zombies and skeletons... I wish there will be more of them; both templates and variant monsters.
Reading it almost brought a tear to an old Chelaxian dwarven librarian's eye... and made me want to put together some sort of introductory adventure using these monsters before the Bestiary is out! (Hmmm... a nixie cleric who worships Asmodeus and animates some burning skeletons... ;))
Brilliant job, guys! I just can't wait to get my dirty hands on the final book! =)
See, that was my original thought too. Except that riding dogs also have trip. And, due to their higher Str scores, are better at it than wolves are.Because, especially at low levels, trip is an absolute pain in the rear.
Now, as for complaints... the riding dog is CR 1/2. The wolf is CR 1.The riding dog does an average of 2 more points of damage per attack. The wolf has an AC 1 higher and 10 feet more movement speed.
Explain to me how this makes sense.
Um... I have no idea then.
chopswil
(Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Roleplaying Game, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber)
chopswil
(Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Roleplaying Game, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber)
A PC version might end up being a bit more stripped out and toned down (as they suggested in one of the design bubbles).
...
Sucks to be a hero.
I couldn't find said design bubble?
The whole handling of monsterous PC's has me seriously confused.
From the bestiary preview all the PCable monsters have no ECL, and no CR adjustment.
Yet if you look in the players guide for council of thieves the recommendation is that players take the special debuffing trait if you are a Tiefling so your not to powerful (which is a bit of a double kick in the teeth since you loose abilities, and a trait slot, and are kind of pigeonholed into the traits background of "chip on my shoulder beaten up as a kid.")
But roleplaying the character aside, and just looking at the mechanics, I can't help but feel a mixed message, are we doing away with ECL/CR? Are the monstrous PC races in the Bestiary for DMs only, and a later players version of the races will appear in a playable race guide?
As a DM at least when we had ECL it didn't feel to the player like they were being arbitrarily penalized for playing an uneven race, but without it/leaving it up to the DM it feels like it is introducing unnecessary player/DM tension.
Am I crazy here, or is there really a mixed message?
Question about the Goblin Entry:
I see that the warrior listed has a base attack bonus of +1. Being small creatures, the Goblin also gets +1 size bonus on attack rolls. He is listed with a Strength of 11 (no modifier).
Why then is his short sword attack at only +1? Shouldn't that add up to +2 or am I missing something obvious?
Question about the Goblin Entry:
I see that the warrior listed has a base attack bonus of +1. Being small creatures, the Goblin also gets +1 size bonus on attack rolls. He is listed with a Strength of 11 (no modifier).
Why then is his short sword attack at only +1? Shouldn't that add up to +2 or am I missing something obvious?
It's probably an error. Sigh.
The whole handling of monsterous PC's has me seriously confused...
I just wrote a enormous post about why we ditched ECL and LA here.
For the Bestiary, we did a "Monster charcters" section for all of the races who don't have Racial HD, primarily because we wanted to make it easier for GMs to build NPCs of those races, since they are so defined by their class levels. We have to present those races with a level in a class already, and by putting in the "Monster Characters" section it makes it easier for GMs to keep track of the bare-bones traits and adjustments the monsters have for ANY class they want to make.
That it also doubles as a handy place for Players to go to look and see and use for PCs is secondary.
The message we're trying to send, really, is that if you as the GM want to let players play non-core races, or if you as a player want to play one, the players and the GM need to work it out on their own. The tiefling stuff in the Council of Thieves player's guide offers several ways to make tieflings equal to PC races (note that the trait route is only ONE of the suggestions... not THE suggestion), and that "make no adjustments and play the tiefling as-is" is a perfectly valid choice. By giving multiple suggestions for the GM on how to handle this (also including giving other PC races a boost, or handing the non-tieflings more starting cash, or charging the tiefling an XP tax, etc.) are included to give the GM options and also to encourage each GM to come up with their own creative solutions.
We'll probably do a Savage Species type book some day in the future that really DOES focus on rules for playing non-human classes, but for now that's not really a feature that's supported by the game.
It's probably an error. Sigh.Question about the Goblin Entry:
I see that the warrior listed has a base attack bonus of +1. Being small creatures, the Goblin also gets +1 size bonus on attack rolls. He is listed with a Strength of 11 (no modifier).
Why then is his short sword attack at only +1? Shouldn't that add up to +2 or am I missing something obvious?
Thanks for the quick response, James. I always tend to think that I missed something rather than find that the nice folks at Paizo made a mistake. :-) I drive myself crazy at times.
Incidentally, I believe the shortbow entry needs to be updated as well.
I find this to be an error.
Heavy Horse: A heavy horse gains the advanced simple template.
and
Advanced Creature (CR +1)
Creatures with the advanced template are fiercer and more powerful than their ordinary cousins.
Quick Rules: +2 on all rolls (including damage rolls) and special ability DCs; +4 to AC and CMD; +2 hp/HD.
Rebuild Rules: AC increase natural armor by +2; Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores.
The rebuild rules mean that Heavy Horses have Int 6. I don't want my horse to be smarter than my character.
I find this to be an error.
Heavy Horse: A heavy horse gains the advanced simple template.and
The rebuild rules mean that Heavy Horses have Int 6. I don't want my horse to be smarter than my character.Advanced Creature (CR +1)
Creatures with the advanced template are fiercer and more powerful than their ordinary cousins.
Quick Rules: +2 on all rolls (including damage rolls) and special ability DCs; +4 to AC and CMD; +2 hp/HD.
Rebuild Rules: AC increase natural armor by +2; Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores.
This is a good point; it's probably a good idea to not increase the horse's Intelligence score to 6. But even if you do, the horse doesn't suddenly get the ability to speak or understand languages; he'd need to take ranks in Linguistics to do that, and even then would lack the ability to speak.
In any case, I'll speak with Jason about making sure this bit of clarification gets added to the FAQ or whatever we end up doing for the Bestiary. Of course, if you just use the quick rules for the advanced template (which is the whole point of the advanced template, to make it easy to use), this isn't a problem anyway.
Question regarding the Crag Linnorm: can its "triple tail" grab and constrict three separate creatures simultaneously?
Edit: it clearly gets only one tail attack per round, this question is more about how prehensile the tail is -- it its tail holding capacity one creature or three?
The crag linnorm has only one tail attack (despite the fact hat the tip of its tail splits into three tails); it can only use its tail against one target and thus cannot constrict three separate creatures at once.
The crag linnorm has only one tail attack (despite the fact hat the tip of its tail splits into three tails); it can only use its tail against one target and thus cannot constrict three separate creatures at once.
Thanks.
BTW, between the magma breath weapon, the long list of immunities, the high AC, HP, and SR, the poison bite, the constricting prehensile tail, and the assorted special abilities (particularly the death curse) this thing looks really really REALLY nasty.
The crag linnorm has only one tail attack (despite the fact hat the tip of its tail splits into three tails); it can only use its tail against one target and thus cannot constrict three separate creatures at once.Thanks.
BTW, between the magma breath weapon, the long list of immunities, the high AC, HP, and SR, the poison bite, the constricting prehensile tail, and the assorted special abilities (particularly the death curse) this thing looks really really REALLY nasty.
Yup! Even better... he's the wimpiest of the three linnorms that are in the book.
Yup! Even better... he's the wimpiest of the three linnorms that are in the book.The crag linnorm has only one tail attack (despite the fact hat the tip of its tail splits into three tails); it can only use its tail against one target and thus cannot constrict three separate creatures at once.Thanks.
BTW, between the magma breath weapon, the long list of immunities, the high AC, HP, and SR, the poison bite, the constricting prehensile tail, and the assorted special abilities (particularly the death curse) this thing looks really really REALLY nasty.
So its safe to assume that this ISN'T the Linnrom Dragon of Myth and Legend! I can hardly wait to see that critters stats!
So its safe to assume that this ISN'T the Linnrom Dragon of Myth and Legend! I can hardly wait to see that critters stats!
There are three types of linnorm in the Pathfinder Bestiary. There'll probably, eventually, be more linnorms statted up as well. In Pathfinder, they're a classification of dragon that has ties to the First World and generally lives in colder climates... they're certainly inspired by the real-world linnorm legends, but aren't meant to be exact representations of that.
Dire Bat is weak!
AC has dropped from 20 to 14!
Hit points have dropped from 30 to 22!
Saves were f7/r10/w6 and are now f5/r6/w3!
Physical Stats have gone from Str17, Dex22, Con17 to Str17, Dex15, Con 13
The base classes have all got stronger so why such a huge nerf to Dire Bats?
Edit: What about the Dire Wolf...
Attack was +11(1d8+10) but now it's +7(1d8+6)
As someone that has player a number of Summoners these creatures were defined by their abilities. If you wanted something to stick around you summoned a Dire Bat [AC20], if you wanted some damage output you summoned a Dire Wolf [+11(1d8+10)].
Now they all look very, well... similar.
Maybe James or someone else of Authority can answer this: Would a Paladin's Special Mount gain the Advanced Creature Template? Under Paladin it states that "This mount is usually a heavy horse." It foes on to say that it functions as a Druid animal companion (which has different horse stats than the horse stats in the bestiary for some reason), but does not seem to account for it being a heavy horse. Any offical word on how to handle this would be greatly appreciated.
This is a case where the rules are interfering with the words, compounded by the fact that we hadn't fully worked out how heavy horses worked yet. But despite that confusion... it's not an error.
ALL of the rules for animal companions are pretty much totally separate from the stats for animals as monsters. A close examination of the raw animal companion stat blocks listed with the druid will reveal a LOT of differences (usually pretty minor) when compared with the same animal's actual stat block in the Bestiary. This is completely intentional.
Part of the way we put balance back into the game as far as animal companions go was to give them their own advancements. A paladin's warhorse, as a result, uses the base stat block as appropriate from the list of animal companions and then improves using the big table of animal companions improvements. It doesn't interact with the Bestiary stats really at all; the only case where it WOULD is in the case of something like a boar or a deinonychus, where it lists that the animal has a special attack or quality like pounce or ferocity, in which case you'd go to the Bestiary to see how those attacks work. You'd still ignore all of the other stats you see in the Bestiary.
So in the end... your paladin won't have an Int 6 horse at all... unless you decided to put points into Intelligence as your horse leveled up, of course. The Advanced Template has nothing to do with animal companions.