Recent Posts
*yawn*
Hmmn. Now I'm convinced they've run out of ideas. As if 4e in general isn't enough to prove lightning doesn't strike twice for designers of star wars minis/dnd4e, this re-hash method of game design is drivel. Electronic Dungeon Mags You Never Read—volume XIII, Players Handbook XVI—Director's Cut, Adventurers Vault VII—more little rehashed widgets you already own in a better game system.
*harsh, but honest discussion nonetheless, with a glowing ring of truth*
*yawn*
Hmmn. Now I'm convinced they've run out of ideas. As if 4e in general isn't enough to prove lightning doesn't strike twice for designers of star wars minis/dnd4e, this re-hash method of game design is drivel. Electronic Dungeon Mags You Never Read—volume XIII, Players Handbook XVI—Director's Cut, Adventurers Vault VII—more little rehashed widgets you already own in a better game system.
*harsh, but honest discussion nonetheless, with a glowing ring of truth*
so I assume you already ordered your copy then? What don't you like? You'd prefer a different title? Adventurer's Locker.... Gear Vault.... Flashy Trinket Stuff Vol 1. Ahh sure the guy in the titles dept. down at good old WOTC is afraid of just lunging out there with some revolutionary eye grabbing, pupil mashing, power title. The job market is grim. Might get fired if someone finds the title offensive or blows out a retina.
Widgets and roman numerals get me all tingly. I love hash and drivel. Especially with grits and sawmill gravy. But hey I live in the south.
*galnörag sides steps the troll pits*
So this book is a great follow up to AV1, at the moment I've been using both AV's to feed my PFRPG AP, not every item works, but most do.
For example the Grizzly Claws, a hand slot item that in AV2 grants +3 to initiate, or escape a grapple, in PFRPG, well +3 to your CMB to grapple check, +3 to your CMB or Escape Artists check to break a grapple. Pretty obvious translation. Probably too powerful an item for its item level if the monk wasn't currently demon chow, but in the hands of the warrior who recently found himself hip deep in tentacles, that +3 would have freed him much sooner.
Another great item I believe is the Amulet of Luck Charms. Like all amulets it grants a item bonus to all defenses (except ac) I opted since 4e has less item slots, and no natural armor to change this to a bonus to natural armor instead. But the 1/day add 1d6 to basically any d20 roll that failed is pretty great, without breaking the game.
Finally, another item that will be coming to the table soon, its name escapes me, something to do with time. If I describe it, it is more clear. It is a type of armour, that grants some + to AC, and that same + to initiative checks. So a +3 chain shirt of the time lord (or what ever it is called) grants +3 ac, +3 init.
Since the init bonus scales with the base bonus of the item, I've decided (for pricing) that this is a +1. So to the +3 item would cost the same to enchant as a +4 item.
I think this item is going to come on the back of a major npc, who will seem preternaturally fast.
Anyways, just a handful of items that I love from this book, and they are all easy to steal.
Honestly, the basic pattern of 4e items is on going basic effect shared with all items of its class (ac, def, attack, saves etc) and a 1/day or 1/encounter power. Encounter powers I typically say 1/5min, or just say 3/day. and daily remains 1/day in the conversion. For myself I think it just breathes a little fresh air in to the mundane world that has become magic items.
I paizo is coming out with a book of interesting non-magic equipment, but I do hope they turn their quill to some interesting new magic items.
Hmm, I'm torn (again, disclaimer: I'm not a 4x player)
I understand the feeling of you can never have enough toys, but I have to wonder, does the DMG 2 have magic items? What about the X power books? How many vaults do you have before you start getting game useless items like "Lawn gnome of mowing: Once a week this statue of a gnome animates and walks around the lawn with a large pair of scissors, trimming your grass down to one inch tall" or items like "gauntlets of brokenation: These adamantine gauntlets allow you to use your Daily powers at will."
Yes, this is a risk or any game, not just 4.x, I just worry it will accellerate.
Hmm, I'm torn (again, disclaimer: I'm not a 4x player)
I understand the feeling of you can never have enough toys, but I have to wonder, does the DMG 2 have magic items? What about the X power books? How many vaults do you have before you start getting game useless items like "Lawn gnome of mowing: Once a week this statue of a gnome animates and walks around the lawn with a large pair of scissors, trimming your grass down to one inch tall" or items like "gauntlets of brokenation: These adamantine gauntlets allow you to use your Daily powers at will."
Yes, this is a risk or any game, not just 4.x, I just worry it will accellerate.
PHB 1 had a very small section on magic items, AV1 was released as one of the first core books, as DMG1&2 have no magic items.
So the AV are the source of magic items.
Beyond thematic items introduced in campaigns/adventures/dragon&dungeon
The model 4e takes to magic items makes it difficult to make an item of brokination, as
1) you are limited by the number of item powers you can use per day (so if you had 10 million slotless items with powers, you are still capped by number of uses)
2) the base stats of like leveled items (items have levels to indicate relative value/suggested player level, they have no other function) So all level 25 amulets would have a similar +5 to defenses, and 1 power. That one power could be made overly powerful, but so far the more powerful the power, the more narrow it is. (that is, the most powerful abilities are often coupled to a limited use power your character may have, and to a very specific one making a super power item only goood for character class x, with power y. and if you want to use the items 1/day power it also means using your characters 1/day power, so you are ticking 2 limited resources at once.
SO there is a model in place to mitigate that, but like you said, this is an issue in any game system, but they have at least given it careful consideration.
So they took the power of magic items fromthe DM and gave it to the player?
Then they made a new line of must-have books...wow, I definitely can't afford 4e...
Magic items have been in the "players hands" since 3.5, although no DM I know ever stopped a player from reading the DMG in 2nd edition either.
In PRRPG it is one book...
In 4e, they made the books separate, the smattering of items in the PHB are there to educate a player on how to use/understand magic items.
But in a game at your table magic items are, as always, at the purview of the DM.
So they took the power of magic items fromthe DM and gave it to the player?
Then they made a new line of must-have books...wow, I definitely can't afford 4e...
Magic items have been in the "players hands" since 3.5, although no DM I know ever stopped a player from reading the DMG in 2nd edition either.
In PRRPG it is one book...
In 4e, they made the books separate, the smattering of items in the PHB are there to educate a player on how to use/understand magic items.
But in a game at your table magic items are, as always, at the purview of the DM.
I actually didn't let players read everything back in the days of 2e...now of course the players that were also DMs, well that's nother story...
I've even toyed with the idea of making players make knowledge (arcana) to even know anything but basic magic items exist! How would a fighter with an 8 intelligence know to go and ask a wizard to make a +5 axiomatic flaming burst weapon?
By putting magic items straight into the player's handbook it says here...you have the RIGHT to have these, demand them from you DM!
I remember some of my favorite games I ever played were in Earthdawn where the GM limited our knowledge of EVERYTHING...it was all a mystery...it was GREAT!
So they took the power of magic items fromthe DM and gave it to the player?
Then they made a new line of must-have books...wow, I definitely can't afford 4e...
Magic items have been in the "players hands" since 3.5, although no DM I know ever stopped a player from reading the DMG in 2nd edition either.
In PRRPG it is one book...
In 4e, they made the books separate, the smattering of items in the PHB are there to educate a player on how to use/understand magic items.
But in a game at your table magic items are, as always, at the purview of the DM.
I actually didn't let players read everything back in the days of 2e...now of course the players that were also DMs, well that's nother story...
I've even toyed with the idea of making players make knowledge (arcana) to even know anything but basic magic items exist! How would a fighter with an 8 intelligence know to go and ask a wizard to make a +5 axiomatic flaming burst weapon?
By putting magic items straight into the player's handbook it says here...you have the RIGHT to have these, demand them from you DM!
I remember some of my favorite games I ever played were in Earthdawn where the GM limited our knowledge of EVERYTHING...it was all a mystery...it was GREAT!
Ever since 3.0 it would be naive to pretend the players don't know about magic items. That doesn't mean there characters know. What characters know of magical items is always at the GM's discretion.
Even though the magic items were listed in the DMG, the magic item creation feats were in the PHB, by your logic, entitling the players to demand access to any item they have the feats and skills to create.
house rules like a knowledge arcana check seems like a reasonable way to control a pack of rabid meta-gamers.
You know, I could totally understand if someone that played 4E on a regular basis but wasn't thrilled with a given product posted some negative comments, but I really don't get the point of even posting in a specific product thread for a 4E product when a given poster's general stance is, and has been for some time, "4E isn't for me."
Given that, from the beginning, the design team has said that sequels were part of the plan (pretty early on mentioning a PH 2, PH 3, etc.), why would this even be worthy of note?
I just don't see the point of going out of your way to keep poking a hornet's nest in this manner.
KEJr,
Was that directed at me?
While I've no inerest in 4.x mechanically, I am curious about development. One thing that plauged 3.x in its later years was item/prestige/mostner glut. Things weren't tested or proofread with any degree of reliability (abjurant cheesewhore, I'm looking at you).
My concern is from a development POV. Is 4e going to go the way of item glut, with poorly tested items 'breaking' the game. The last thing we need is 'another edition' or revision right now.
My concern is from a development POV. Is 4e going to go the way of item glut, with poorly tested items 'breaking' the game. The last thing we need is 'another edition' or revision right now.
Not that I've seen so far. I'm a RPGA member and my fellows mix-max this stuff like mad. So far I haven't seen anything within our games that is blatantly broken. Many of the magic items now in the current D&D system are more adjuncts to the PCs' powers rather than a power in their own right.
KEJr,
Was that directed at me?
While I've no inerest in 4.x mechanically, I am curious about development. One thing that plauged 3.x in its later years was item/prestige/mostner glut. Things weren't tested or proofread with any degree of reliability (abjurant cheesewhore, I'm looking at you).
My concern is from a development POV. Is 4e going to go the way of item glut, with poorly tested items 'breaking' the game. The last thing we need is 'another edition' or revision right now.
It seems like such fears would really need some evidence to back them up, or some good reasons to explain away why you don't share them for PFRPG, which already has announced an "Advanced PHB" which sounds a lot like PHB2
KEJr,
Was that directed at me?
While I've no inerest in 4.x mechanically, I am curious about development. One thing that plauged 3.x in its later years was item/prestige/mostner glut. Things weren't tested or proofread with any degree of reliability (abjurant cheesewhore, I'm looking at you).
My concern is from a development POV. Is 4e going to go the way of item glut, with poorly tested items 'breaking' the game. The last thing we need is 'another edition' or revision right now.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to single anyone out, but no, I think you just asked a legitimate question, you didn't pop into the thread and make the same comment that has been made about a thousand times before.
It seems like such fears would really need some evidence to back them up, or some good reasons to explain away why you don't share them for PFRPG, which already has announced an "Advanced PHB" which sounds a lot like PHB2
For what its worth, though, James has indicated a few times that this is going to be the "one shot" expansion to base classes and alternate features, not the first in a series.
Not that I've seen so far. I'm a RPGA member and my fellows mix-max this stuff like mad. So far I haven't seen anything within our games that is blatantly broken. Many of the magic items now in the current D&D system are more adjuncts to the PCs' powers rather than a power in their own right.
The one magic item that I recall hearing my LFR playing friends mention getting banned struck me as kind of strange and not really massively overpowered.
Now, there have been some class abilities . . . but that's another story. I did picked up a used copy of the first AV when I was still playing in a 4E game regularly, and it was fun to read through, although I missed some of the wilder wondrous items from other editions.
I did picked up a used copy of the first AV when I was still playing in a 4E game regularly, and it was fun to read through, although I missed some of the wilder wondrous items from other editions.
Discussing the actual book at hand, there is a really great new wondrous item in here, I don't have it on hand to quote exactly, but it is "like an ioun stone" but it is basically a murmuring and babbling, horrifying ball of flesh that encircles your head, and as an immediate reaction when your hit by an attack targeting your will defense, your foe is subject to some psychic damage. Basically feedback as they try and attack your mind which is protected by this aspect of madness.
Discussing the actual book at hand, there is a really great new wondrous item in here, I don't have it on hand to quote exactly, but it is "like an ioun stone" but it is basically a murmuring and babbling, horrifying ball of flesh that encircles your head
I'd have it look like a bald head with tentacles in lieu of a mouth ^_^
I'd have it look like a bald head with tentacles in lieu of a mouth ^_^
Discussing the actual book at hand, there is a really great new wondrous item in here, I don't have it on hand to quote exactly, but it is "like an ioun stone" but it is basically a murmuring and babbling, horrifying ball of flesh that encircles your head
The image in the book is that of kind of lumpy purple/red thing with many eyes and mouths.
WOTC earned the Vista upgrade stigma template when they created 4e. They created so many bad feeling that few people are willing to give it a chance.
The reason that there is so much pent-up demand for all things Pathfinder is that so we have been starved for more 3.5 and WoTC isn't in that business any more.
WOTC earned the Vista upgrade stigma template when they created 4e. They created so many bad feeling that few people are willing to give it a chance.
The reason that there is so much pent-up demand for all things Pathfinder is that so we have been starved for more 3.5 and WoTC isn't in that business any more.
Sorry, to quote Methos "I outgrew my angry adolescence." I'm not a 4x player, but am interested in how the game will evolve and when it starts to show its age, if they'll milk the last few drops from it, release 4.5 or 5.x. From what the 4e players are saying, that time isn't rushing towards us, despite the appearance of this book, and the implications of four 'core' rule books a year (PHB, DMG, MM, and now AV)
Funny thing is, I've never had Vista problems.
I think a lot of people are misinterpreting what the appearance of this book means.
One can play D&D 4e with the first 3 books. One could play forever, as long as their imagination doesn't run dry. There are plenty of character options, magic items, and monsters to keep a person occupied for a long time.
All items published, including those in Dragon and Dungeon, are considered "core" now. These various books, including the Power series, add options. Adventurer's Vault 2 isn't a revised version of AV1, but adds more options to your game. They don't revise the basic rules, but give new possibilities. They are "must have" only in the sense that a publisher always sells its books as "must have." Paizo does it. If one wants to play CoCT, one "must have," besides the 6 adventure books, the Korvosa book, the player's guide, the harrow deck, the map folio, and so on.
In my mind, the appearance of these books doesn't denote that the designers are drying up on ideas, but are managing to find ever new possibilities for various aspects of the game. And actually having read the book, I find these new possibilities innovative and good additions.
These books don't show signs of 4.5 or 5e. For one, the designers made it very clear before the release of 4e that they would be creating sequel books every year, like PHB2 and DMG2. Secondly, the output of these additional books shows that WotC is concentrating pretty heavily on the current edition. Why focus on a 4.5 when you are creating PHB3, PHB4, and on and on. These additional books aren't creating new rules, just new options - and quite a number of them. Plus, a 4.5 just doesn't seem necessary. You rarely hear of a person who likes 4e complaining about a broken rule. Maybe a broken power or magic item here or there, but rarely about the overall system. 4.5 would most likely alienate current customers and wouldn't likely bring new customers.
As for 5e, it's probably inevitable. It's a matter of when. However, the appearance of AV2, or Martial Power 2, or any of the subsequent sequels are in no way a sign of that edition. To say so I think shows a lack of understanding of how supplemental material works in 4e. As a DM, I don't need to own anything other than the three main books, even if my players are using options from other books. I just need to look over the players' character sheets and powers to get a basic understanding.
Like or hate 4e, AV2 is not a sign of the 4e apocalypse. It's just another book with several new options along a growing line of many other books that add options to the game.
I am not saying that 4e is bad or good. What I meant was that because of perceptions they generated on that horrible release, few old school players are willing to give it a try.
It is my groups impression (wrong or right) that they are trying to follow the computer game RPG model with tanking, buffing and DPS stolen strait from WoW.
What makes me sad is that CRPG's were trying to be shadow recreations of the table top experience. By basing the table top game off of MMORPGs you are letting the tail wag the dog.
D&D was the single most popular title that WoTC ever had. WoTC needs to get in front again and be a leader not a follower. Give me a call when D&D 4.5 comes out.
Paizo does it. If one wants to play CoCT, one "must have," besides the 6 adventure books, the Korvosa book, the player's guide, the harrow deck, the map folio, and so on.
Actually there is a difference between "fluff" or story lines that Pazio is putting out and rules, or options as you call them that are ever increasing with obvious lack of play-testing and eventually "breaking" the game. There is no way they are play-testing all these new rules/options they are releasing EVERY month.
Of course this is just my opinion and to throw it in because I think the argument that Pazio is doing it is wrong. Yes they are a publishing company and put out publications. But the stuff they are putting out are story lines as in there adventure paths or their Chronicles which is generic and can be used for anything or nothing. This is different from rule "options" that WoC is putting out. While yes you do not have to use the new books you will get a player that complains and b$&#^ until either you relent or tell him to leave that you well not let him use this or that option.
A DM might not need to buy the books that the player uses but I guarantee that you'll have a guy using the power incorrectly or "cheating" whether its intentional or not if you do have the book and get a VERY sound understanding of the rules/options.
My two cents....Sean
Somehow I get the feeling that certain people here would hold their tongues if Paizo released something very similar to this.
Double standard for the sake of a double standard, nothing more (not to mention taking the idea of judging a book by its cover to its most ridiculous extreme). Stay classy.
Perhaps some but I would voice my opinion the same if they started putting obvious unplay-tested "options" every month.
Sean
Somehow I get the feeling that certain people here would hold their tongues if Paizo released something very similar to this.
Double standard for the sake of a double standard, nothing more (not to mention taking the idea of judging a book by its cover to its most ridiculous extreme). Stay classy.
Perhaps some but I would voice my opinion the same if they started putting obvious unplay-tested "options" every month.
Sean
I'd like to know what it is "obvious" that it is unplay tested?
Because they didn't do an open beta?
Somehow I get the feeling that certain people here would hold their tongues if Paizo released something very similar to this.
Double standard for the sake of a double standard, nothing more (not to mention taking the idea of judging a book by its cover to its most ridiculous extreme). Stay classy.
Perhaps some but I would voice my opinion the same if they started putting obvious unplay-tested "options" every month.
Sean
I'd like to know what it is "obvious" that it is unplay tested?
Because they didn't do an open beta?
Obvious unplayed tested in the term of their is no way all the material they are putting out is play-tested like it should be. This will result in it being broken eventually.
This is a lot of material they are putting out, a book every month. Powers get increasing stronger in each book....means eventually the person with the initial core three well not be able to compete or well be a third wheel on an adventuring party because one member can do it with super duper force wind or something.
That is what I mean by obviously unplay tested. Nothing specific to an exact thing YET. I quit buying the 4e books after Dungeon Delve.
Sean
I really do think that the roles would be reversed if this were a Paizo product on another forum with members of both sides seemingly disregarding what they said other places to take a difference stance or just hold their tongue. That is sad, but that excuse there being a stinking battle in the product discussion forum! I seriously don't think this is the right place of almost all the posts from both sides.
This is a lot of material they are putting out, a book every month. Powers get increasing stronger in each book....means eventually the person with the initial core three well not be able to compete or well be a third wheel on an adventuring party because one member can do it with super duper force wind or something.I find this interesting as it doesnt match my group's experience. One of the things I've been relatively pleased with in 4th edition is that, even with all the new books, the powers available in the core books are often still attractive.
We a complete set of the books (I think anyway), although not a DDI subscription and freely use powers from anywhere - nonetheless we dont find ourselves always going to the latest supplements on the grounds that the powers there are stronger than the core three books. The later books seem more about changing the flavor of a class rather than increasing the power.
Awesome! I suppose it also depends on the group of players you play with. WHich unfortunately I do not think I have found a good one yet. Well I have but they are playing Role Master or Space master. Of course I am in love with PFRPG now but still not that huge of a following in Alaska yet. But I did see three books at one store that were accounted for already so there is promise. Cause I am sure there are more that ordered direct.
At any rate I saw potential and maybe part of it was the lack players that are not meta gamers up here.
Sean
I really do think that the roles would be reversed if this were a Paizo product on another forum with members of both sides seemingly disregarding what they said other places to take a difference stance or just hold their tongue. That is sad, but that excuse there being a stinking battle in the product discussion forum! I seriously don't think this is the right place of almost all the posts from both sides.
Perhaps. Actually more than likely you might be right more than I would like to agree.
:O)
Sean
Actually there is a difference between "fluff" or story lines that Pazio is putting out and rules, or options as you call them that are ever increasing with obvious lack of play-testing and eventually "breaking" the game.
You're making an assumption that what happened in previous editions will happen in 4.0. So far, what you are saying about "breaking" the game has not happened, despite the numerous character option books that have already come out. My group as a whole probably owns every 4e book published and we find the original powers and classes from the first three books to be just as powerful as subsequent books and we use them just as much. Until the game actually "breaks", I don't think one can make the assumption that history will repeat itself. I believe WotC is actually playtesting every rule before it is published, some rules perhaps more than others, based on what I've read and the regular calls for playtesting.
... you will get a player that complains and b$&#^ until either you relent or tell him to leave that you well not let him use this or that option. A DM might not need to buy the books that the player uses but I guarantee that you'll have a guy using the power incorrectly or "cheating" whether its intentional or not if you do have the book and get a VERY sound understanding of the rules/options.
Again, this has not been my experience with 4e. Most players have Power Cards, so one can easily read a power if need be. A power's description is short and the rules are standardized, and therefore one doesn't have to read the fine print. If a use of a power seems too overpowered, then it's easy enough to look up and see if the power is being played correctly.
All I can say is that, from experience, the problems you speak of have never been an actual problem for us at the game table. We allow use of all WotC published material regardless of whether the DM owns the materials and we rarely have any kind of serious overestimation of a power or extended arguments about it rules. You might "guarantee" it will become a problem, but so far everyone at our table feels that everything is for the most part balanced and fair, no one is overshadowing anyone, and we have a very playable game with no outrageously broken rules.
Actually there is a difference between "fluff" or story lines that Pazio is putting out and rules, or options as you call them that are ever increasing with obvious lack of play-testing and eventually "breaking" the game.You're making an assumption that what happened in previous editions will happen in 4.0. So far, what you are saying about "breaking" the game has not happened, despite the numerous character option books that have already come out. My group as a whole probably owns every 4e book published and we find the original powers and classes from the first three books to be just as powerful as subsequent books and we use them just as much. Until the game actually "breaks", I don't think one can make the assumption that history will repeat itself. I believe WotC is actually playtesting every rule before it is published, some rules perhaps more than others, based on what I've read and the regular calls for playtesting.
... you will get a player that complains and b$&#^ until either you relent or tell him to leave that you well not let him use this or that option. A DM might not need to buy the books that the player uses but I guarantee that you'll have a guy using the power incorrectly or "cheating" whether its intentional or not if you do have the book and get a VERY sound understanding of the rules/options.Again, this has not been my experience with 4e. Most players have Power Cards, so one can easily read a power if need be. A power's description is short and the rules are standardized, and therefore one doesn't have to read the fine print. If a use of a power seems too overpowered, then it's easy enough to look up and see if the power is being played correctly.
All I can say is that, from experience, the problems you speak of have never been an actual problem for us at the game table. We allow use of all WotC published material regardless of whether the DM owns the materials and we rarely have any kind of serious overestimation...
Then again it could of been me not catching the rule and he was taking advantage of it. IF I recall correctly it was Attack of Opportunities when he was doing spells or something in that regard.
At any rate I hope your correct because I do personally own every book up to as previously mentioned Dungeon Delve. I was planning on selling the majority of them if your interested :O) for like 50% of retail Or Best Offer. :O) Except the Players hand book I and II. Plus four of the power cards sets. The other ones are going. The power card packs I am keeping are Range, Fighter, Paladin, and Rouge.
I have a list of remaining items if some one is interested.
Sean
Somehow I get the feeling that certain people here would hold their tongues if Paizo released something very similar to this.
Double standard for the sake of a double standard, nothing more (not to mention taking the idea of judging a book by its cover to its most ridiculous extreme). Stay classy.
Perhaps some but I would voice my opinion the same if they started putting obvious unplay-tested "options" every month.
Sean
I'd like to know what it is "obvious" that it is unplay tested?
Because they didn't do an open beta?
Obvious unplayed tested in the term of their is no way all the material they are putting out is play-tested like it should be. This will result in it being broken eventually.
This is a lot of material they are putting out, a book every month. Powers get increasing stronger in each book....means eventually the person with the initial core three well not be able to compete or well be a third wheel on an adventuring party because one member can do it with super duper force wind or something.
That is what I mean by obviously unplay tested. Nothing specific to an exact thing YET. I quit buying the 4e books after Dungeon Delve.
Sean
The stuff you're talking about doesn't exist in any appreciable quantity. If anything, many of the strongest rule elements in 4th Edition remain in the PHB. Not only are all releases playtested, but significant portions of them are playtested publicly. The reality is that 4th Edition releases see plenty of playtesting for what they are - certainly more than the vast majority of releases in this hobby. And those balance issues that do sneak by (which is ironic, given that some people decry 4th Edition for its insistence on ensuring equitable options; can't have it both ways, guys) are pretty reliably corrected by digital updates provided free of charge.
I'd like to know what it is "obvious" that it is unplay tested?Because they didn't do an open beta?
Obvious unplayed tested in the term of their is no way all the material they are putting out is play-tested like it should be. This will result in it being broken eventually.
This is a lot of material they are putting out, a book every month. Powers get increasing stronger in each book....means eventually the person with the initial core three well not be able to compete or well be a third wheel on an adventuring party because one member can do it with super duper force wind or something.
That is what I mean by obviously unplay tested. Nothing specific to an exact thing YET. I quit buying the 4e books after Dungeon Delve.
Sean
I'm sorry, but that is fallacious, and unfounded, I have as little evidence as yourself, but the sheer volume of material isn't evidence unto itself that it isn't play tested.
Somehow I get the feeling that certain people here would hold their tongues if Paizo released something very similar to this.
Not me. I already think that the "Elves of Golarion", "Dwarves of Golarion", "Dragons of Golarion", ..., "Carbuncles of Golarion", "Flail Snails of Golarion" series is pretty weak.
I really do think that the roles would be reversed if this were a Paizo product on another forum with members of both sides seemingly disregarding what they said other places to take a difference stance or just hold their tongue. That is sad, but that excuse there being a stinking battle in the product discussion forum! I seriously don't think this is the right place of almost all the posts from both sides.
I'd like to think that I don't come down on Paizo, because I play and enjoy both 4e and PFRPG. I think they are both great systems, I'm just disgusted that every time a new 4e product shows up here in the Product Discussion forum in collapses into unfounded undermining of a perfectly good game system.
Sure, WotC rolled a 1 on its diplomacy check when it first announced 4e, but the acrimonious hate mongering that continues to go on is just silly, and mean spirited.
Somehow I get the feeling that certain people here would hold their tongues if Paizo released something very similar to this.
Yes, because no one complains about clerics not having heavy armour, spiked chains not having reach humans not getting a martial weapon proficiency, the production of the map packs, or countless other things...
Stay classy, Scott.
Somehow I get the feeling that certain people here would hold their tongues if Paizo released something very similar to this.
Yes, because no one complains about clerics not having heavy armour, spiked chains not having reach humans not getting a martial weapon proficiency, the production of the map packs, or countless other things...
Stay classy, Scott.
There is a difference in the kind of heated debate over specifics where people lose their heads, and the kind of non-specific version trashing that is occurring in this thread (and others like it.)
If people have a negative review of this product that would be welcome here, at least someone coming here to buy this product would see reasons for and against Adventure Vault 2, instead they come here and all they see is a bunch of crotchety old loons (I include myself in that) carrying on like a bunch of children (again, I include myself in that.)
Gaming isn't some Procrustean bed, one size doesn't have to fit all, and but if we can't elevate the discourse the only thing threads like this accomplish is to starve the retail portion Paizo's business of legitimate sales, as we drive any 4th edition players to other friendlier shores to buy their products.
I agree that the 'non-specific' trashing isn't needed. In fact, I was quite satisfied with my curiosity with yours and others answers and felt no need to comment any more. From the descriptions given, so far no one has found broken items or things that are 'must haves' (I'll admit the one item that it a mass of screaming faces sounds cool, and very 'Xoriat' themed to me. I might get this from my FLPL (Friendly Local Public Library) if they get it.
Until some posts got my hackles up.
The only thing I have noticed on this thread is how we have barely discussed the actual product. Personally, I find these conversations are dull and repetitive. I'm not sure I'd even bother to hang around the Paizo site anymore if I didn't have friends here online who I PbP with. For the love of Christ, can we stop going on about whether we like WotC's attitude and can some f~#$er who as actually read this product actually say whether they think it is any good or not.