*squee*

Any chance for getting one in pink or lavender? ;)

Greatest shirt EVER

Are you going to have any of these at GenCon UK?

I'd love to wear them around the con, and I'm not sure one would arrive in time if I ordered it for delivery.

There could be a problem with this.

There could be a problem with this.

No offense, but I wouldn't wear that on patrol in Iraq... it looks like a sniper's crosshairs.

Auxmaulous wrote:

There could be a problem with this.

Explain.

Of course with all the Beta excitement and work I forgot.

Not a major issue per say, but looking at the symbol as it appeared in the Gazetteer as the Cheliax flag, and later on the cover of the Last Baron Module, the symbol is a Wolfsangel, or Wolfshook - a Germanic rune that has been associated with WWII national socialism movements and popular in the post-war NS scene, also used by the Church of Satan and various white power groups. The symbol as it appears on the shirt a little less so, but it does looking incredibly like a NS/Nazi symbol.

I think that is why I found the symbol so powerful and appropriate for the Cheliax Empire, it is the Germanic runic base for the swastika (in addition to the Black Sun).

I can't say that I am an authority on history or runic traditions, but being a skinhead for 19 (of my 37) years has put me in some bizarre circles. I have seen this symbol before (be it on tats, shirts or album covers).

The Cheliax flag is probably the closest thing you could get for a Nazi type banner (the color scheme, inverted swords, wolfshook) for a quasi-medieval game. It is the perfect symbol for the combination of fascism and devil worship.
Now that, is hardcore.

For the record I am not offended personally; it is a symbol for a fantasy game and I bring it up as more of a point of concern for Paizo getting some idiots worked up about their products.

Edit to add: when I say "skin" I mean and Oi/Punk skin, not a goose stepping stormtrooper. I don't go out beating up people of other ethnicities or do anything of that moronic nature. WP skins are actually a minority in the skin counter culture, most people don't know that.

Fascinating post, Auxmaulos. What does NS mean?

Fascinating post, Auxmaulos. What does NS mean?

Not a major issue per say, but looking at the symbol as it appeared in the Gazetteer as the Cheliax flag, and later on the cover of the Last Baron Module, the symbol is a Wolfsangel, or Wolfshook - a Germanic rune that has been associated with WWII national socialism movements and popular in the post-war NS scene, also used by the Church of Satan and various white power groups. The symbol as it appears on the shirt a little less so, but it does looking incredibly like a NS/Nazi symbol.

The pitfalls of symbolism I suppose. It's all been done before.

It's a great, thoughtful post, but I don't think Paizo is in dangerous waters. If it took this long for someone to point out the similarity (in a community that has more than a few history buffs), then we're probably safe.

However, your comparisons have sparked my imagination. The Chelaxian tableau has come alive. Thanks!

Edit: IconoclasticScream's link has put me in a bad spot. That does look rather close. Considering the colors and the nature of the Cheliax empire...erg. Hmm.

....

Now where's the dang Taldor T-shirt? I do hope it comes with an ascot.

Fascinating post, Auxmaulos. What does NS mean?

I'm not try to raise non-issues to issue status, just bringing it up as an FYI. The shirt logo doesn't look like an exact replica of their flag as depicted in the books, but looks more like the Odin/Celtic cross which has been co-opted and now associated with WP and NS groups. The actual hooks on the shirt are different than the book logos which are in fact Wolfhooks - by coincidence if not by design.

Not really big deal, more of an FYI concerning the subject.

A lot of interesting stuff

What I didn't realize was that they were actual real-world symbols. This use of old Nazi symbols could be misconstrued, especially when put on tee shirts. I don't know what can be done about it at this point, except hope that they won't be taken out of context by someone.

Of course, considering the many possibly offensive kinds of tee shirts you can see at any big gathering these days, perhaps no one will notice.

The pitfalls of symbolism I suppose. It's all been done before.

It's a great, thoughtful post, but I don't think Paizo is in dangerous waters. If it took this long for someone to point out the similarity (in a community that has more than a few history buffs), then we're probably safe.

However, your comparisons have sparked my imagination. The Chelaxian tableau has come alive. Thanks!

....

Now where's the dang Taldor T-shirt? I do hope it comes with an ascot.

It is powerful though...if the minds at Paizo wanted to create an totalitarian evil empire that will put most other rl or fantasy ones to shame then they have done a hell (heh) of a job with Cheliax.

Now bring on the heroes!

I understand your concern Aux. Wearing the shirt in the wrong situation could have people looking at you funny, or at worst assuming something about your political views and starting a confrontation.

One night in Seattle, while waiting for a bus in the U-District around midnight, I saw a skinhead wearing an anti-fascist patch (a swastika inside a red circle with a slash) get jumped by four black guys who had mistaken him for a skinhead wearing a nazi patch.

I'd hate to see some poor Chelixian innocent get their ass beat because someone mistook them for Nazi.

Except, of course, that there are no innocent Chelix...

I had meant to say something about this, too. See here, from the Anti-Defamation League's website (second row, last image).

You're telling me (not you, personally, IconoclasticScream) the Futhark rune for elk is a symbol for hate?

Not that I would be concerned with "public opinion" (between my penchant for heavy-metal tees and my seal of baphomet amulet), but I wouldn't mind having a Cheliax T-shirt with the emblem a little less prominent; perhaps a solid coloured tee with the symbol on the shoulder? Personal taste, though I doubt that there will be enough interest to have 2 different styles of tees (though I seem to see our flag adorning more avatars than the other factions ... do we have an official head count yet as to who has more adherents?)

Obviously, the intention behind this symbol is innocent. However, it's questionable enough to cause potential problems in certain circles. I live in Oregon, and we do have occasional problems with white power skinheads starting s&!~. We also have some fairly violent non-racist skins who might mistake the Cheliax shirt for something it isn't, and I wouldn't want to be wearing this shirt when such a mistake was made. There are also some violent elements in the larger punk community here who think that ANY perceived skinhead symbol is reason for a fight, racist or not.

I used to tend bar at a place where non-racist skins would occasionally hang out, I've seen some bad fights go down and I've actually seen a guy get stabbed because some skins mistook one of his tattoos for something it wasn't (ironically, it was a Warhammer Imperial Eagle that looked a little too close to a Nazi eagle). It's going to be hard to explain that your shirt actually represents an imaginary country of devil binders to a guy who's looking for a fight.

What I'm talking about is an extreme situation, one that would maybe never even happen, and I'm not saying that all skinheads are going to try to beat up a gamer for this shirt because they're not. I do, however, think it might be a good idea to modify the emblem if it's going on a T-shirt. It's a great symbol, but it's easier to change it than deal with the potential (albeit remote) possibility of fallout.

Anyway, like Auxmaulous said, this probably isn't a serious issue. I just f!&~ing hate fights.

Hm... just what I need to strike fear into the hearts of my players. I'll have to get one of those some day, when I arrived at my more or less final weight.

Well, until then I have my "Gamemaster at work" Tee to carry me over.

I understand your concern Aux. Wearing the shirt in the wrong situation could have people looking at you funny, or at worst assuming something about your political views and starting a confrontation.

Well, if this is going to be a big issue, then perhaps something along the lines of a devil... say, an Erinyes?

>.>
<.<

:D

2nd SS Panzer Division - "Das Reich"

While many of the SS were no more than murderous brutes, political opportunists and/or depraved sycophants hiding in uniforms, Das Reich of the Waffen SS was thought of as one of the most capable of units in the German warmachine. They were considered as a first rate division by Russia and the Western Allies alike.

links

http://www.dasreich.ca/

http://www.dasreich.ca/unithistory.html

Let's just make *certain* that we don't put Cheliax Uber Allles on the backs of those shirts and I think we'll be fine.

The Infernal Empire is Eternal

Auxmaulous wrote:

2nd SS Panzer Division - "Das Reich"

Speaking of history buffs ::

While many of the SS were no more than murderous brutes, political opportunists and/or depraved sycophants hiding in uniforms, Das Reich of the Waffen SS was thought of as one of the most capable of units in the German warmachine. They were considered as a first rate division by Russia and the Western Allies alike.

while it's unfortunate that some fascist movements have perverted the meaning of traditional pagan symbols from more than a thousand years ago, this shirt could get you killed at some shows i've been to. wear it with caution and be prepared to get messed with.

IconoclasticScream wrote:

I had meant to say something about this, too. See here, from the Anti-Defamation League's website (second row, last image).

You're telling me (not you, personally, IconoclasticScream) the Futhark rune for elk is a symbol for hate?

I seriously would love to start peace/equality group/coalition and co-opt the swastika (and other symbols) in an attempt to drown out the haters.

I seriously would love to start peace/equality group/coalition and co-opt the swastika (and other symbols) in an attempt to drown out the haters.

Azzy wrote:

I seriously would love to start peace/equality group/coalition and co-opt the swastika (and other symbols) in an attempt to drown out the haters.

I don't think that would work, sadly. That one's gone. I can't imagine anyone's going to be able to reclaim it. A genocide of 6 million lives has the tendency to be irrevocable.

Personally, I'd love to see it work. I think it would be a serious blow to the hate groups to take their symbols away from them and reclaim them for a positive purpose.

Personally, I'd love to see it work. I think it would be a serious blow to the hate groups to take their symbols away from them and reclaim them for a positive purpose.

Folks,

We decided to change the design of the Cheliax flag to make it look _less_ like a swastika. I don't want to get into a political argument about this (obviously, Nazis are lame), except to say that we are aware of the similarities and have taken some steps to remedy it. The current design is our current solution.

If it becomes a serious problem, this is something we will revisit.

Right now, Asmodeus smiles upon the current design.

Let's just make *certain* that we don't put Cheliax Uber Allles on the backs of those shirts and I think we'll be fine.

*squee*

Mike McArtor wrote:

*squee*

I wouldn't think Chelaxians "squee."

Mike McArtor wrote:

*squee*

I wouldn't think Chelaxians "squee."

Vic Wertz wrote:

Mike McArtor wrote:

*squee*

I wouldn't think Chelaxians "squee."

Well maybe not in public, or in front of the minions . . . but when no one's looking?

after a Cheliaxian noble uses a trapdoor in the throne room to drop some Andoran rebels into the infernal breeding pits below the castle, (Aka "Club Malbolge")

Right now, Asmodeus smiles upon the current design.

Erik Mona wrote:

Right now, Asmodeus smiles upon the current design.

So does Joseph Goebbels. Heh.

Erik Mona wrote:

Right now, Asmodeus smiles upon the current design.

So does Joseph Goebbels. Heh.

We get it, Nazis were bad. Really bad. Monsters. And yes, they stole mysticism from all over the world and violated it (the swastika was a symbol of good luck and well-being, originally).

But that doesn't mean that everything that even resembles one of the signs they used is forever unusable.

We get it. I thought this was put to bed already. Where's that dead horse when you need him?

yoda8myhead wrote:

We get it. I thought this was put to bed already. Where's that dead horse when you need him?

Ja?

Dämliche Totenbeschwörer.

Its too bad the Cheliax logo is not more in line with the Devil. Demon and blood worship and enjoyment.

We love blood.