In reading over the PDF I may wait until the third book to see what is going on and whether it is worth it. I'll be going over to the other forum for some specific questions but as long as the third book has all the classes I may wait and buy that one instead of just getting the second and the third, but I play mainly rangers.

The Alpha releases will all be free PDF-only products; the Beta PDF will be free, with printed copies available for purchase; the finished product will be for sale in print and PDF form.

We don't have firm timelines for the Alpha releases, but I suspect there will probably be close to a month between releases.

I have been getting the dragon and dungeon magazine ever since i can remember at the local book store. Now that pathfinder has come out i have bought that subscription since it first was released. I have every book WOC made for 3.5 and more. I write my own campaigns and play evey weekend. I love what your doing and take a lot of stuff from your publishings. I really can't wait to see what you guys have came up with.
I like the new ideas alot, but i have some problems with some ideas. Now i know you want feed back from actual game play but these are a few things i notice off the top of my head by reading throu this.
I like the new class skills but the fighter was over powering in the regular 3.5 now with the armor/weapon free feats, they are unstopable. The rouge new class skills are awsome. They add just enuff to them without making them the most favored class.
Now the new feats are kind of cool. The combate feats not so much, the complexity of keeping track of what feats you used the previous round might be too involved for most players let alone the DM keeping track. Simplicity is the key. Now this feat 2-weapon rend requires you to use weapon swap the round before. So after weapon swap you have to draw another weapon to the primary hand. Granted this limits this feat being used multiple times in combat but it also makes it seem not so appealing to get.
I can't wait to see the finished product. I'll be using this before I would the new 4.0.

el manual es muy bueno y es alo que no se puede dudar, lo unico que es molesto es el crecimiento mecanico de las habilidades o skills, alli deberian de mantener la vieja reparticion de puntos de rangos, ya que eso garantiza un proceso mucho mas creativo en crear a un personaje, al hacerlo como esta en el manual es como caer en las mismas situacion de Starwars saga y posiblemente en cuarta edicion de D&D, el proceso mecanizado y automatico de las habilidades es un proceso que destruye la creatividad del jugador al crear su personaje, es un proceso que para mi opinion es mal estudiado y hecho aun a la carrera.

lo que se podria hacer es rehacer la tabla de los rangos maximos de las habilidades y el calculo de las habilidades de las clases de los personajes, para que de esta forma se llegue a equilibrarlas y no se pierda esa magia que hace de D&D un juego creativo donde el jugador pueda explotar su imaginacion al crear un personaje.

se que mi post lo eliminaron y creo que en verdad es ofensivo hacer eso, ya que estoy dando mi opinion con referente al sistema, ya he probado el sistema y en verdad le falta solo ese pequeño detalle en las habilidades.

si he de postear mas de una vez esto, es porque con el corazon lo digo y en plan de ayudar en el sistema para que no caiga en los desastres que se hizo en cuarta edición.

O_o

el manual es muy bueno y es alo que no se puede dudar, lo unico que es molesto es el crecimiento mecanico de las habilidades o skills, alli deberian de mantener la vieja reparticion de puntos de rangos, ya que eso garantiza un proceso mucho mas creativo en crear a un personaje, al hacerlo como esta en el manual es como caer en las mismas situacion de Starwars saga y posiblemente en cuarta edicion de D&D, el proceso mecanizado y automatico de las habilidades es un proceso que destruye la creatividad del jugador al crear su personaje, es un proceso que para mi opinion es mal estudiado y hecho aun a la carrera.

lo que se podria hacer es rehacer la tabla de los rangos maximos de las habilidades y el calculo de las habilidades de las clases de los personajes, para que de esta forma se llegue a equilibrarlas y no se pierda esa magia que hace de D&D un juego creativo donde el jugador pueda explotar su imaginacion al crear un personaje.

se que mi post lo eliminaron y creo que en verdad es ofensivo hacer eso, ya que estoy dando mi opinion con referente al sistema, ya he probado el sistema y en verdad le falta solo ese pequeño detalle en las habilidades.

si he de postear mas de una vez esto, es porque con el corazon lo digo y en plan de ayudar en el sistema para que no caiga en los desastres que se hizo en cuarta edición.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

I just would like to congratulate you for this brave move! I love the news! Thank you for keeping doing what is IMHO the best incarnation and spirit of the D&D game.

I downloaded and read the PDF this afternoon and am very impressed with the changes you've made. It's making me want to restart work on a project I had proposed to Wizards of the Coast, but they'd rejected; "Races of Savagery", expanding upon the Orcs and Goblinoids, who were sorely ignored in 3.x.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The alpha release looks great! Your products have always been top notch & I expect nothing less from this release.

The line between 4e & 3.5 has been drawn in the sand; and as you can see, MANY of us have your back!!! Hopefully this bold move will encourage other small RPG companies to follow suit to support 3.5 OGL.

Also, any chance of a PRINTED D&D related magazine??? Basically just re-release Dragon under a different name to suppory 3.5. Pathfinder is a great substitute for Dungeon magazine, but I want my Dragon Mag!!!

Also, any chance of a PRINTED D&D related magazine??? Basically just re-release Dragon under a different name to suppory 3.5. Pathfinder is a great substitute for Dungeon magazine, but I want my Dragon Mag!!!

FenrysStar wrote:

In reading over the PDF I may wait until the third book to see what is going on and whether it is worth it. I'll be going over to the other forum for some specific questions but as long as the third book has all the classes I may wait and buy that one instead of just getting the second and the third, but I play mainly rangers.

I think you might be confused... the remaining classes will debut in the second and third Alpha releases. Thus, the Beta release due in August will have all of the classes, as will the finished product (of course).

The Alpha releases will all be free PDF-only products; the Beta PDF will be free, with printed copies available for purchase; the finished product will be for sale in print and PDF form.

We don't have firm timelines for the Alpha releases, but I suspect there will probably be close to a month between releases.

I was perusing the WOTC 4E forums when I happened to find a thread titled "Paizo gives Wizards the finger" or something to that effect. I curiously checked the thread and it described this Pathfinder rpg being developed by Paizo that was going to stick with a modified version of 3.5 rules. Well one link led to another and the next thing you know I'm downloading the Alpha playtest pdf and staying up until 3 am reading it.

I don't know what to say... I'm really impressed! I've been following 4e with a mixture of nervous apprehension and morbid curiosity, only to see every tidbit of leaked information let me down. Don't get me wrong, I'm not some ancient grognard who nostalgically wishes that DnD never made it out of 2nd edition (the edition I first go into). I was excited when I first learned about 4e being released, but something just doesn't seem right, the more I read about it the less it feels like DnD.

Pathfinder on the other hand really blew me away, the subtle changes to the classes and races make them relevant, exciting and new while still retaining that DnD feel. I'm going to start playtesting with my group as soon as possible and all I can say is that I'm excited to see how the system unfolds, and even more excited to be a part of the process. Awesome work!

I will need to check back frequently for the other pieces of the Alpha then.

I will have to add my appreciation for continuing to work with the 3.5 ruleset also. I wasn't going to contribute (throw) $$ towards the 4.0 setting either. I was going to do what a long-time friend did with 2nd ed. He never converted and continues to this day to play from the 2nd ed. materials with his group.

Having said that, I will add a couple of comments about what I have read so far into the rules you are developing. So far, I have to say "BRAVO". What you are coming up with is fantastic.

The racial modifications now truly allow individuals to "tailor" certain races (half elf, human specifically)and allow a half orc of any class to stay true to it's heratage and allow the use of the Great axe and falchion withut taking a martial weapon feat (wasted) to "role-play" their racial preferences.

Finally there is something toat doesn't "Penalize" a player for wanting to play a Cleric. I say "penalize" because they didn't get any additional feats for the class other than the ones (abilities) at 1st lvl. After 1st lvl is seemed all players then began planning what prestige classes they would expand to for additiona abilities and feats instead of going straight cleric.

Your addition of the "Orisons" is a great idea. It is similar to what I adopted for my campaing world to encourage players to play divine casters. I would allow divine casters to spontaneously cast (like a sorcerer) any of their 1st-3rd lvl spells and would have to pray for 4 and up (memorize). This helped but the cleric has never truly been a favorite class of any of my players.

Last: I am concerned (this is the only down side so far (finishing the Character creation), and I haven't finished going through the pdf.; Raising the hd for the rogue and wizard classes (d6 to d8 and d4 to d6) is a great idea and will do what you are proposing, help survivability at all levels, but what will happen to any of the now current prestige classes based off these classes and their prerequisites theyfurnish for other classes and prestige classes? Do you raise the HD of those presige classes and classes to match the base class they were designed to branch from or emulate?

So far this is my only concern.

Great job though and I look foreward to the rest of the releases so I can start my players playtesting in my own campaign by allowing them to convert all of their characters.

From my discussions with my gaming group, I have to say that I am pleased that Pathfinder RPG is on the way. I like what I see in the Alpha docs so far. My opinion is this, whether I go 4E or stay 3.5E, I've got a talented group of publishers releasing material. Kudos to Paizo. If 4E doesn't live up to the hype, 3.5E is not dying off. Great news, folks! Either way, Pathfinder is worth the price. It is packed full of really cool ideas.

Kobold... I've heard of it, but not entirely sure what its all about... I guess its worth a shot.

And just cuz I feel like it...

WoooooHoooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!! PATHFINDER!!!!!

You guys seriously need to help WoTC with their Web work. I mean really, sending me an automated email about the 1.1 version of the Alpha? Providing print and read versions? Crazy. : )

Seriously, great work and I look forward to patronizing your products for many years to come.

I've had everyone in my group download the new ruleset and we've agreed to playtest it (we'll update as the rulesets come out)with the Curse of the Crimson Throne adventure path. So far, we like it and I'll be posting our thoughts once we get a few games under our belts.

btw I was actually one of those people pumped about 4th ed. But now I think what I really wanted was this. Thankyou Paizo for all your hard work and improving on a game we all love! The way that your going about your playtesting is fantastic. It is great to feel like we can have some impact (however little or big it may be) on how this game will turn out.

- Mike

I like the new class skills but the fighter was over powering in the regular 3.5 now with the armor/weapon free feats, they are unstopable. The rouge new class skills are awsome. They add just enuff to them without making them the most favored class.

Well at least they got the Rogue and Races right.

I'm sure that 4E will be a decent game, but truth is they need to take the D&D title off of the product. This is no longer D&D, but more akin to EVERQUEST, WORLD OF WARCRAFT, or any other fantasy MMORPG out there with limited scope and forced roles. Why does a paladin have to be a Divine Defender? Why do I need to fall into a role at all? I feel that these clique-like roles are going to be more limiting to the development of good role-play than character alignments ever were.

That being said, I've been going through the Pathfinder RPG, and I'm finding it quite interesting. I'm a touch disappointed that a few of the things my 3.5 character had doesn't quite fit into Pathfinder (yet), but hopefully it will come in time. (Like, for example, Tieflings, or players using Book of Nine Swords)

As a charter subscriber, I have continued to be entranced and amazed by the Pathfinder line. These are STORIES! This is what Role-playing is about!

= David

Thank you very much, as a role-player and DM of 14 years I was NOT excited about 4th edition. My 500+ dollar library of 3.5 manuals would have been a waste of my money. As for the pathfinder rpg it looks like it could be the best tabletop rpg release since 3.0.
Thanks again.

Do I need any special written permissions to get the alpha releases printed? I am trying to get a few copies done for myself and friends to reference from FedEx/Kinkos, and the employees are not especially cooperative on this.

Thank you very much, as a role-player and DM of 14 years I was NOT excited about 4th edition. My 500+ dollar library of 3.5 manuals would have been a waste of my money. As for the pathfinder rpg it looks like it could be the best tabletop rpg release since 3.0.
Thanks again.

Simply put, it makes sense for the company to upgrade their games when times and playing styles change. There were concepts I liked about earlier versions of all these games, but the next generation cleaned up a number of things I didn't like.

1E D&D: Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings are a 'Class', not a 'Race'.

1E AD&D: Demi-Humans are a race. However, there are no 'Skills' par se (until way, way later when Proficiencies came out), Multi-Classing exists only for demi-humans, and humans can 'dual class'. Monsters can not have a Class at all, and races are limited in what levels they can take in certain Classes. Anyone in a Class is pretty much the same as anyone else in a Class.

2E AD&D: Skills exist as Non-Weapon Proficiencies. The 'Complete X Books' come out, allowing you to use 'Kits' to perform minor tweaks to the Classes. Specialized Mages exist, and Rogue Abilities can be assigned and strengthened individually, rather than having them all creep up at a snail's pace. Attribute requirements for Race and Class removed. Level limits for Class by Race removed.

3E: 'Kits' become Prestige Classes. Rogue Abilities moved to Skills for the most part. Skills fully integrated into the game. Monsters can now have Classes and progress.

Of course, making a character in 3.5 takes bloody forever, and involves an inordinate amount of number crunching. From what I've seen of Pathfinder, they've tried to limit some of that, and 4E is doing the same thing.

Personally, if it takes more than 5 minutes to make a character or an NPC, there's something seriously wrong.

Do I need any special written permissions to get the alpha releases printed? I am trying to get a few copies done for myself and friends to reference from FedEx/Kinkos, and the employees are not especially cooperative on this.

Tim Nutting wrote:

Do I need any special written permissions to get the alpha releases printed? I am trying to get a few copies done for myself and friends to reference from FedEx/Kinkos, and the employees are not especially cooperative on this.

I haven't heard of anybody having problems. We certainly don't mind you printing copies for personal use.

Having worked at a Kinko's, you're probably not going to be able to get them to do it (if they're following the rules). They are not allowed to print or copy anything that is copyrighted unless they are doing it for the person who holds the copyright. (In this case, they would print it for Paizo, but likely won't for you.)

Easy workaround for that is to put it on a disk (or in your email), pay the dollar or two to use Kinko's customer use computers for the few minutes it'll take you to print it, then go make copies. Should work out best for everyone that way.

If you need help printing it, they'll likely even help you do that. They just can't do it themselves.

I am happy that you have chosen to seek destiny on a different path from WotC. They became a giant hobby-eating monster, and I wanted nothing to do with it. Pathfinder is going to put me back into the RP hobby. The changes to the races I see as positive. Streamlining the skill system is a great goal. Feats should be...scrapped! I see them as the role-playing equivalent of ABABLRLRUDX button sequence to unleash the power attack. As a GM, I do not want to handle 8-20 NPCs with varying feats, skills, and class abilities to keep track of. I do not want a combat encounter to take 4 hours to resolve. Pull in the reins on the escalating complexity. No new rule should add to the GM's load. You have made a great start. Have the courage to do what needs to be done--your fans will reward you loyally. Thanks, Mike Young

I am not going to read the rest of it..what I just read makes me support it 100%.

Finally, half-elfs get a stat bonus. Finally, a reason to pick them..for the options they provide.

Good job Paizo.

Wow.....

I was feeling a bit left in the cold there. Necromancer is going 4E all out as I understand it. I really want to stick with 3.5E and looks like this is the place for me! And the thought of fixing the parts of 3.5E tha dont work it just fabulous....I just have to sit out and get a hold of myself. I am just overwhelmed with joy!!

Thank you Paizo!

I am not going to read the rest of it..what I just read makes me support it 100%.

Finally, half-elfs get a stat bonus. Finally, a reason to pick them..for the options they provide.

Good job Paizo.

Death to 4.0, wheres the roleplaying, why wouldnt we all just go out an play warcraft! keep supporting the new 3.5-3.75 no need to invest in another wizard money hungry scheme

Seriously, are you actually paying attention to the information coming out for 4E, or are you just jumping on the Wizard-Bashing bandwagon.

I hope 4E works well for WotC, just like I hope Pathfinder works well for Paizo. I don't think either company deserves to get slammed.

Now, Games Workshop, on the other hand... but then I have a legitimate beef with them.

Looks good!!!!!!! I've just started the first campaign path, and am wondering if anyone has come up with a Character record sheet for the RPG?

I salute your initiative Paizo!

I really like where you are taking the 3.5! 4.0 can wait (for crying out loud, I've got a whole bookcase crammed with unused/unread 3.5 books)

Thanks Paizo, you made me want to play D&D again!

Looks good!!!!!!! I've just started the first campaign path, and am wondering if anyone has come up with a Character record sheet for the RPG?

http://secure.paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/path finderRPG/general/characterSheets

Very good ideas, pro art, You have all for the best. The art of wayne reynolds empolga any scenario campaign. I am a fan of wayne. You have everything to be the best and occupy the space deserved. I am Brazilian, and when your articles are published in Portuguese, can be sure that buying! The new races ajust are very very good. I will test this scenario today.

Thank you Paizo. I support the change to the new Pathfinder system and appreciate your attempt to implement an "open playtest". Between all the players who love Paizo's APs, all the opinions on 3.5 vs. 4E and all the other input that comes in I'm certain that what Pathfinder becomes will be a wonderful Dungeons and Dragons game. I look forward to the whole thing coming together.

I like what have read so far, and I really like the difference between 3.x and this new book.. but I gotta ask one question.. is there gonna be an official Pathfinder character sheet download??? Just curious...

FenrysStar wrote:

I will need to check back frequently for the other pieces of the Alpha then.

If you've downloaded the current release, we'll e-mail you when subsequent releases are published.

So far myself and all my players are excited at the changes that has been made and can't wait till our next game seesion to use these new rules. I actually have one person who has had to create a new character due to death by Nualia,(see Rise of the Runelords #1)he had no interest in rolling up a fighter until i showed him the Pathfinder RPG.pdf.IN summary great job guys keep it up

Mostly a big success. What you have done to races, skills and hit dice are really fine.I have always thought Gnomes favoured class should be cleric so all the base classes have a race, but that's probably just me.
As for classes until I read barbarian I was really happy. I might have been purring after reading Fighter! I hate rage points, more math, slows down game and adds stuff that might be confusing and irrelevant. Frankly barbarian was perfect as it was, if it aint broke don't fix it eh? I got a Barbarian in living Arcanis to level 12 he seemed fine to me.
Grapple is not quite right yet, you did not mention when to determine damage. I am sure you'll get there. You added some helpful rules!
I am not convinced power attack needed nerfing. At high levels a fighter is just not relevant damage wise without it. Mind you everyone is aware that the cleric and wizard at high levels is going to out perform a fighter. He can not hit enough targets in one round to do wizard or cleric level damage. The ability to do major damage to one opponent was practically his only use and you severely limited it. Just my opinion.
Ciao Lewis

Absolutely fantastic, guys. Looking forward to watching this develop.

Rogue, and Fighter are the most improved classes in the game. In my opinion.

Sorcerer Bloodlines, really seperate them from Wizards.

Dig the +3 to trained class skills!

I like the Wizards Schools and powers, (Cleric needs this!) Wizard needed more spells, and the extra powers give it a touch of class, and further seperate Wizard from Sorcerer.

Hate the way domains work for Clerics, Wizard schools are far better. Clerics get more spells and spell like abilities that cost you your standard action, but no power associated with the domain?

Druid gets rooked! Almost identical to 3.5, but less skill points. Between that and the Cleric Domain, I'd ask any DM if I could play the 3.5 version. Druid should have access to 2 Domains (from limited list (plus I'd add Travel and Protection) that you have) with the added power associated, like the Wizard schools and Domains in 3.5. Also with the condensed skill lists, the 4 skill points is a minor gripe. But Domains need power associated with them!

Great job guys! I just looked over the new classes and am impressed. Not everything in 3.5 Need be tweaked or fixed. I felt the touches they added to the druid were fine and just enough to add some spice to the class. I love the changes made to the paladin, however their hitdice were reduced to a d8. Was this really necessary? Granted he now has some new abilities added but it shoudn't unbalance the class so much that it would warrent a reduction in hit dice and overall hitpoiints. A paladin is a frontline combatant like your standard fighter and needs to be able to take the punishment thats dished out just as much as he does. I love the changes in the sorcerer. Those are just brilliant. I've always wanted to include rules for differing blood lines to sorcerers and now here they are. Thanks guys! I am greatly looking forward to seeing the ranger and monk.
One last thing. Was the paladin's spell list intentionally left out or is it unchanged? Will we perhaps see it and the ranger's spell list with the next release of the alpha pdf? I hope so. I'd hate to think with the new spell changes that these two classes wouldn't have changes made as well.

I'm not sure if this is where we post feedback or not, but I do have a question. It's probably too soon to bother about this, but can you guys give us some idea of your stat-equivalence paradigm since the stat blocks of the races obviously don't follow the current rules.

Second question: I don't know the "ins" and "outs" of the OGL but if you guys converted existing WotC classes and just posted them for free, would you be infringing on their rights? I just ask because I love what you've done, and I would really like to see you're thoughts on other base races and classes or similar options in Pathfinder-RGP could be. This question relates to the first in that I know business-wise it would take a lot of time and effort to produce something you wouldn't legally have rights, so if you posted your approach to race redesign, I could just work on adaptations on my own.

As little as I know about 4th ed. so far, I like some of the new ideas, but you're system seems to be solving just the same problems but with a greater respect to the substantial body of work under the 3.5 banner and those patrons who love the system.

Again, this is really great and exciting. I turn pages and keep saying to myself, "I'm glad someone else finally saw this solution and was able to formulate it on paper!"

Finally, I have a couple thoughts. On the plus side, your Pathfinder line of adapted 3.5 material will allow new material in a proven, well supported market with a world-wide consumer base, the material has great art direction and writing, that I've seen, but... On the negative side, all the OGL material producers, although great on their own, still live under the shadow of DnD trademark loyalty, and as the "leader" in this market changes systems, it will probably take with it a substantial chunk of the consumers. So as much as I love what you're doing, oh man do I love it, if I were on your business side, I would be wary in my estimate of this product lines earning potential in the next few years. It all kinda depends on what WotC does with 4th and if they can seduce people into something new. You have the fear of great change on your side, so that is nice.

By the way, I'm finishing my BFA in art studio and my BA in religious studies this semester and could really use a reliable source of grocery money: my two degrees usually don't "feed" reliably.

Keep it up, Paizo

I'm not sure if this is where we post feedback or not...

You should get a copy of the First Edition DMG with it's bell curves describing the 3-18 score range. A single die makes a flat graph. Multile dice create a bell curve with a MUCH higher probability in the mid-range. Again, on a single d8, EVERY number will appear, statistically, the sam eamount of times. On 2d4, five will almost always be the score, with four and six right up there. Get some dice out and try it, even just 2d6. Snake eyes has one chance of coming up when each dice comes up one. Seven, on the other hand, comes up with
1 + 6
6 + 1
2 + 5
5 + 2
4 + 3
3 + 4
Multiple dice creat a slanted bell curve that does not fit in well with the concept of random damage. It IS, however, a great feature in rollling attributes...

BTW, I've played D&D since 1978, so I've covered A LOT of statistical ground, here. It really is a broken rule...

Last week I played a 3.5 Campaign that I've been in for months, started a Pathfinder Campaign based on the Alpha, and ran a 4.0 game. This week I played the second session of Pathfinder and then the 4.0 game again.

Pathfinder has basically ruined 3.5 for me. 4.0 and Pathfinder are different, but some of the best 4.0 things are in Pathfinder, and if you want to use your library of materials from over the years Pathfinder is the only way to go.

So I need to talk my 3.5 Game into going Pathfinder, because they are anti-4.0, and Pathfinder is so much better than 3.5. Pathfinder and 4.0 are just different, but similarly better.

todavia veo que el sistema de reparticion de puntos es igual de mecanico, deberian de poner un sistema de reparticion de puntos de habilidades o skills igual que 3.5 de D&D, ya que ese sistema libre de reparticion permite una mayor creatividad en crear un personaje

todavia veo que el sistema de reparticion de puntos es igual de mecanico, deberian de poner un sistema de reparticion de puntos de habilidades o skills igual que 3.5 de D&D, ya que ese sistema libre de reparticion permite una mayor creatividad en crear un personaje

I finally had a chance to read this a bit. All I can say is "wow." This is really excellent. Well done, folks, keep at it.

eh?

Hi we would nead an explanation about the thief rogue talent
Surprise attack... We had an argument...
How does it apply exacly:

- does it grant you the ability to counts opponents as flat foot even when you are victim of the suprise attack
or is it only when you suprised them?