Erik Mona wrote:

You should see some of the art. My god this thing is beautiful.

I'd wager that depends on whether one likes Kyle Hunter's art... which I have to say I generally don't. A shame really, sounded like a cool thing to get.

My beef has little to do with art, I think Kyle can do a good job. I do have a problem with the cards being tied in with alignment, though. Ick. Good to hear there's no words on them, I can hopefully ignore that aspect. Looking forward to the blog entries regarding this.

Also, to be clear, is the deck a dm tool, or a player tool?

Also, to be clear, is the deck a dm tool, or a player tool?

And yeah, there's nothing on the face of the cards that says anything like "Chaotic Neutral."

In fact, I believe that in-game, the nine "alignments" won't be referenced as that, nor will the 6 ability scores be so referenced. Not sure yet, but certianly, in world, people don't use phrases like Chaotic Neutral to describe folk, so they wouldn't do the same for this deck of cards. It's just a convenient way for us to model the game itself into the fabric of a fortune-telling mechanic.

hummmmmm ¬¬

good thing he's on the polite side of society now. And you guys at Paizo are so nice offering him a new job as illustrator.
old job.. ?!?!

and now the Paizo logo gains a new way to be seen..........

Both, really. It's a GM tool in that it can help steer your campaign and give it a new bit of cool flavor. It's a Player tool in that there's a feat in the Player's Guide that lets you draw a card from the Harrow Deck to gain a once-per-day random bonus.

Also, there are no words on the divination cards except the card names. I think we've revealed enough about the game mechanics, though. More in our next preview.

Mike

I have this pre-ordered. I am very excited about it.

DarkArt wrote:

To think, an actual deck to fondle...

As one of the Harrow deck's designers, I just need to say: Ick. I mean, "Them Ogres Ain't Right!"-level ick.

Still, I'd say you may need to buy ten copies of Harrow for these purposes. I'm just saying.

Mike

Goroxx wrote:

Will the cards have rules text on them, like the Three Dragon Ante cards?

Dude, I am not going to go down in history as the guy who ruined 54 pieces of Kyle Hunter art. So, heck no.

Mike

hummmmmm ¬¬

good thing he's on the polite side of society now. And you guys at Paizo are so nice offering him a new job as illustrator.
old job.. ?!?!

and now the Paizo logo gains a new way to be seen..........

...
...
...

But not 100% sure.

LOL.

Different guy. Kyle always complains about turning up that dude when he puts his own name into Google.

LOL.

Different guy. Kyle always complains about turning up that dude when he puts his own name into Google.

What does Paizo have against hiring someone with a background in softcore?

Erik Mona wrote:

LOL.

Different guy. Kyle always complains about turning up that dude when he puts his own name into Google.

Aw man. My hopes have been dashed.

What does Paizo have against hiring someone with a background in softcore?

There's an Ex-mousketeer whom I share a name with. I used to get e-mail all the time. I finally started answering it "That was before all the drugs and booze, I don't like to talk about those days."

Now for really scary, there's another Matthew Morris in Columbus, with the same date of birth.

Guy has always drifted across my path, but we've never met.

There are quite a few other Mike Selinkers, but my wife has forbidden me to use the cloning machine at home. Still, the same one of me hasn't been to the Paizo offices in at least a year.

Mike

Erik Mona wrote:

LOL.

Different guy. Kyle always complains about turning up that dude when he puts his own name into Google.

Aw man. My hopes have been dashed.

What does Paizo have against hiring someone with a background in softcore?

Eyebite wrote:

Erik Mona wrote:

LOL.

Different guy. Kyle always complains about turning up that dude when he puts his own name into Google.

Aw man. My hopes have been dashed.

What does Paizo have against hiring someone with a background in softcore?

So you're looking for a job with Paizo? What movies did you play in?

Hot Rods 6 and 7.

Saving Ryan's Privates.

Jurassic f#&&

Deuce Bigalow: Get it on with a Gigolo.

And many more.

There are quite a few other Mike Selinkers, but my wife has forbidden me to use the cloning machine at home. Still, the same one of me hasn't been to the Paizo offices in at least a year.

As to the number of cards question, there are 54 divination cards and 6 cards that help you with your divination results.

Mike

Is this anything like the Three Dragon Ante Character Creation Article featured in one of the Dragons?

That is a pretty long post.

Jub-Jub wrote:

Is this anything like the Three Dragon Ante Character Creation Article featured in one of the Dragons?

I had this same question. If there isn't a char-gen method using these already built in, the rules governing such would be awesome as a blog or maybe a free pdf or something, perhaps to celebrate the release when they finally come out?

In fact, two people alrady said that they might give it a shot (and one of those was the guy who made the Three Dragon Reading method).

So rest assured: We'll have a method (or several) to generate stats with Harrow, and it's not unlikely that it will show up soon after the deck's release (maybe even sooner, in case we get to know the cards before the release)

I can see a new internet meme approaching:

"I have no idea what you are talking about, so here's a Unicorn with a pear on its horn."

The unicorn is one of my favorite pieces. To me, it has a look in it's eye that tells me just what it's thinking: "How the heck am I going to get that pear off there?"

For those who are interested in it:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/pathfinder/pathfinderChroniclesProduct s/characterGenerationUsingHarrowDeck&page=1&source=rss

A first attempt at doing Ability scores with (what we know about) the Harrow Deck.

For those who are interested in it:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/pathfinder/pathfinderChroniclesProduct s/characterGenerationUsingHarrowDeck&page=1&source=rss

A first attempt at doing Ability scores with (what we know about) the Harrow Deck.

The unicorn is one of my favorite pieces. To me, it has a look in it's eye that tells me just what it's thinking: "How the heck am I going to get that pear off there?"

MIke

I think it's thinking "Hey, maybe after more than a thousand years of real world mythology, I might not be such a Good guy after all."

Or at least that's what I read on the Internets.

Will having a Harrow deck be necessary to playing the second adventure path? Do the rules icluded allow a competitive card game like poker or only as a fortunetelling game?

Will having a Harrow deck be necessary to playing the second adventure path?

Do the rules icluded allow a competitive card game like poker or only as a fortunetelling game?

Sean Mahoney

Will having a Harrow deck be necessary to playing the second adventure path? Do the rules icluded allow a competitive card game like poker or only as a fortunetelling game?

The gambling game Towers has nothing to do with fortune telling. It has some similarities to a classic poker game called 3-5-7 in the way payment is handled, but given the lack of numbers on the cards, the game doesn't have much to do with the card play in poker. It does allow for winning a great deal of copper pieces, though.

Mike

The cards are supposed to represent an ability score and an alignment, right? So there's Lawful Good Strength, Chaotic Evil Charisma, True Neutral Wisdom, and so on.

We know 2 cards now, and if I recall correctly, the unicorn is CG Cha. But how do you tell it's CG Cha from the card? Or don't you? Is it colour? The frame?

We know 2 cards now, and if I recall correctly, the unicorn is CG Cha. But how do you tell it's CG Cha from the card? Or don't you? Is it colour? The frame?

KaeYoss wrote:

We know 2 cards now, and if I recall correctly, the unicorn is CG Cha. But how do you tell it's CG Cha from the card? Or don't you? Is it colour? The frame?

If I were to guess from the to cards we've seen, I'd say the symbol indicates the ability, and the symbol's position on the card the alignment.

Though I'm not huge fan of Kyle Hunter's very distinctive art I must say I think it's perfect for the Harrow Deck. It reminds me somewhat of the stylised illuminations used in playing cards circa the 1400s.

In fact, I've shifted from "Definitely not getting this" to "Quite possibly will pick it up".

It does allow for winning a great deal of copper pieces, though.

(Oops! Did I say that out loud?)

It would be nice if the deck includes a booklet with an alternate system for Destiny/Fate/Hero/Actions points : spend a point, draw a card!

Hmm... with all of the interest shown here, perhaps Paizo should see if the writer of the 3 Dragon Ante Character Gen article is available to do the same for Harrow.

Not that I have a bias ;)

It would be nice if the deck includes a booklet with an alternate system for Destiny/Fate/Hero/Actions points : spend a point, draw a card!

It think the idea is quite good.

Also, I think eventually someone will create an artifact level item Harrow Deck with 3e rules, similar to the Deck of Many things (or simply a Harrow table for the Deck).

We got the first honest-to-goodness Harrow deck into the shop today. Vic told my fortune. Not surprisingly, he predicted doom.

Mike

We got the first honest-to-goodness Harrow deck into the shop today. Vic told my fortune. Not surprisingly, he predicted doom.

Mike

I have taken a look at all the preview art and tried to keep an open mind toward the project as a whole. I love the idea of the project, and of having an interesting prop to use. Try as I might, I just can't like the artwork. It looks too cartoon-like, too much like a kid colored it. The art really is not suitable for a fantasy game, or at least not for my game. I imagine that the rules for using a harrow deck will only be available in the deck. That's a shame, because I really do like the idea, and would pay for a pdf of the rules. Just thought you shuold know that there are folks out here who love the concept, but dislike the presentation.

Stephen Miller
Ancient Gamer and Curmudgeon

The art really is not suitable for a fantasy game...

I personally think the deck would have been better served with an artistic style similar to the Rider-Waite-Smith tarot cards.

Mike Selinker wrote:

We got the first honest-to-goodness Harrow deck into the shop today. Vic told my fortune. Not surprisingly, he predicted doom.

Mike

Well, of course it would be a board game. Now you're miffed it's not one of your own?

Mike

I am not going to try to counter anyone's opinion regarding the art. I think that's highly subjective, and not something you can really disagree with or give people a hard time about.

I would point out that it's way too late to do anything about the art. People should give their feedback about this, and it's their right to do so as customers.. But this can only influence future product decisions. Practically speaking, the Paizo folks couldn't get audience approval prior to designing this product and commissioning the artwork. The guys went forward the decision based on their taste, and they liked the art.

How well the first deck sells does impact upon whether they try doing something similiar again. That shouldn't feel like blackmail, but it's a practical consideration.

And I wager you'll be able to retrofit another medium to make your own Harrow Deck. For example, the Cyclone is pretty much the Tower from traditional tarot.

More food for thought: I asked our Pathfinder Editor-in-Chief if there might be support for the Harrow Deck in future AP's (Second Darkness, and so on). The answer was that really depends on how well this product sells and if people like it. If people dislike it, there isn't much point. That will be the practical determiner on whether the Harrow Deck is supported beyond Curse of the Crimson Throne AP.

Personally, I do like the art. I have seen and own many fancy decks, but there are lot of decks that have a style that might be called 'cute'.

It's not always strictly the art, it's whether the symbolism can reach you or not.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to this.

I think the art somehow fits. It shows Fate's fickle humour. Fate never takes you seriously, and it's up to you if you take Fate seriously.

And I think we have enough Tarot decks out there if you want something more sombre.

I think the art somehow fits. It shows Fate's fickle humour. Fate never takes you seriously, and it's up to you if you take Fate seriously.

And I think we have enough Tarot decks out there if you want something more sombre.

Stephen

...People should give their feedback about this, and it's their right to do so as customers.. But this can only influence future product decisions.

I just want them to know for future reference, that in this DMs opinion, game props that are designed to be shown to the players should evoke more of a fantasy feel, and to me this art does not do so.

That being said, i wouldnt mind picking up a deck, even if i dont intend to use it, because i do think the art is nice based on its own merits, i just think it would take my players too much out of the game if i used it in the game as intended.

Going into this, I was well aware that Kyle's style of art wasn't going to make everyone happy. Of course... no matter WHAT artist we chose... there'd be people saying that the art didn't match their ideas of what might or might not exist "in game."

Yet that said, I can't and couldn't imagine using any other artist on this project, partially because his style is perfect for what we envisioned for the cards, but also because Kyle's an INCREDIBLY imaginative guy who just happens to know a LOT about D&D. We pretty much left the design of each image up to him, asking him to work in all sorts of classic D&D style imagery into the cards and he did. Not many artists would have been able to do that without us spending an INCREDIBLE amount of time micromanaging every image... something that most artists detest. (In my experience, something that artists HATE with the fiery passion of a thousand dying suns.)

The cards aren't supposed to be photo-realistic images—to me, they look like images of stained glass windows or of the cool illuminations you might see in the glosses of books transcribed by artistic monks; both very much in-game and in-theme artwork types to the genre. And at the same time, the cards DO feel modern, which makes them fun and memorable.

Kyle's an INCREDIBLY imaginative guy who just happens to know a LOT about D&D.

The style Kyle went with, which seems to be his favorite style to utilize, has a very modern look in certain areas--such as the characterizations in expressions--and his line work often has a very pronounced edge to it, which i feel tends to lead to a very modern, graphic oriented style.

I think it would have been interested to see Kyle translate his recognizable style into...i dont know...let's say a linoleum print for instance. His images would still have defined hard edges, but he would be working in a medium that would also have context in a fantasy genre.

Ok so linoleum prints may be too time consuming now that i think about it...

I dont know maybe i'm just crazy but thats my 2 cp.