There's a place where James and I discuss the Shoanti somewhere on these boards, but I'm too busy to find it right now. The short version: Shoanti is not an ethnicity. The Shoanti are kind of like white Americans today: they're a hodge-podge of ethnicities from most of the world, but they have mostly hail from a particular stock (in the case of the Shoanti, that would be the Kellid). The Shoanti also count among their numbers people obviously descended from the Garundi (see Sandpoint's sheriff). There are probably also Ulfen, Chelaxian, and Varisian Shoanti as well. Pathfinder #10 will reveal more. :)

There's a place where James and I discuss the Shoanti somewhere on these boards, but I'm too busy to find it right now. The short version: Shoanti is not an ethnicity. The Shoanti are kind of like white Americans today: they're a hodge-podge of ethnicities from most of the world, but they have mostly hail from a particular stock (in the case of the Shoanti, that would be the Kellid). The Shoanti also count among their numbers people obviously descended from the Garundi (see Sandpoint's sheriff). There are probably also Ulfen, Chelaxian, and Varisian Shoanti as well. Pathfinder #10 will reveal more. :)

thanks Mike. I'll look for that thread as well. If anyone esle knows where it is I would love a link.

Looking forward to number 10 then.

Other than the thread - it looks like the Players Guide to RotRL is the only place currently out there with info then I take it....?

The reason I'm digging for answers on this is because a friend of mine is about to run CotCT starting at the end of this month - and I'm playing a paladin and have found myself truly interested in possibly playing a Shoanti. The other races that seemed to make sense were Chelaxian (but they seem to be too wicked) or Taldan - but they're too far removed geographically. I was looking for a more mideval knight type ethnicity (anglo-saxon, french, british etc).

Robert

Mike McArtor wrote:

There's a place where James and I discuss the Shoanti somewhere on these boards, but I'm too busy to find it right now. The short version: Shoanti is not an ethnicity. The Shoanti are kind of like white Americans today: they're a hodge-podge of ethnicities from most of the world, but they have mostly hail from a particular stock (in the case of the Shoanti, that would be the Kellid). The Shoanti also count among their numbers people obviously descended from the Garundi (see Sandpoint's sheriff). There are probably also Ulfen, Chelaxian, and Varisian Shoanti as well. Pathfinder #10 will reveal more. :)

thanks Mike. I'll look for that thread as well. If anyone esle knows where it is I would love a link.

Here.

Mike and James are a few posts down.

The reason I'm digging for answers on this is because a friend of mine is about to run CotCT starting at the end of this month - and I'm playing a paladin and have found myself truly interested in possibly playing a Shoanti. The other races that seemed to make sense were Chelaxian (but they seem to be too wicked) or Taldan - but they're too far removed geographically. I was looking for a more mideval knight type ethnicity (anglo-saxon, french, british etc).

Robert

Chelaxians as a people aren't wicked. They are haughty and proud, though. They're no more wicked than any other people, despite the empire in which many of them live falling under the sway of devils.

Robert Brambley wrote:

The reason I'm digging for answers on this is because a friend of mine is about to run CotCT starting at the end of this month - and I'm playing a paladin and have found myself truly interested in possibly playing a Shoanti. The other races that seemed to make sense were Chelaxian (but they seem to be too wicked) or Taldan - but they're too far removed geographically. I was looking for a more mideval knight type ethnicity (anglo-saxon, french, british etc).

Robert

Chelaxians as a people aren't wicked. They are haughty and proud, though. They're no more wicked than any other people, despite the empire in which many of them live falling under the sway of devils.

Perhaps so - but the description:

Quick to be offended - slow to forgive. Holding grudges longer than any other human, and "Legendary chelaxian wrath".

Does not sound too paladinish to me. Sounds more draconian to me. Thats just my opinion.

Robert

Mike McArtor wrote:

Robert Brambley wrote:

The reason I'm digging for answers on this is because a friend of mine is about to run CotCT starting at the end of this month - and I'm playing a paladin and have found myself truly interested in possibly playing a Shoanti. The other races that seemed to make sense were Chelaxian (but they seem to be too wicked) or Taldan - but they're too far removed geographically. I was looking for a more mideval knight type ethnicity (anglo-saxon, french, british etc).

Robert

Chelaxians as a people aren't wicked. They are haughty and proud, though. They're no more wicked than any other people, despite the empire in which many of them live falling under the sway of devils.

Perhaps so - but the description:

Quick to be offended - slow to forgive. Holding grudges longer than any other human, and "Legendary chelaxian wrath".

Does not sound too paladinish to me. Sounds more draconian to me. Thats just my opinion.

Robert

PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, but you're being too simplistic. "Quick to be offended by what?" Is a good first question. If you take those traits and run them through a filter of Lawful Good, you wind up with something like Solomon Kane. A very intense, driven, and even vengeful person, to be sure. But an utterly heroic and noble one as well. Being offended by a trivial insult and never forgiving is one thing. Being offended by tyranny and bringing down an evil government because of it is another altogether.

PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, but you're being too simplistic. "Quick to be offended by what?" Is a good first question. If you take those traits and run them through a filter of Lawful Good, you wind up with something like Solomon Kane. A very intense, driven, and even vengeful person, to be sure. But an utterly heroic and noble one as well. Being offended by a trivial insult and never forgiving is one thing. Being offended by tyranny and bringing down an evil government because of it is another altogether.

obviously our definition of "quick to be offended" differs. I consider someone being offended by tyrrany to be a normal or expected outcome.

Contrastly walking down a hall and getting attack by thugs because you cast a glance at them....thats quick to be offended.

Furthermore Lawful Good can have various interpretation (you can ask 10 people to describe it and you'll get 15 different answers) but a paladin (ideally) is not JUST Lawful-good - he is a representation that should even supercede most who are lawful-good. A paragon example.

Finally, just to make sure I didn't take being called simplistic the wrong way; what is the right way I should take it?

Robert

Perhaps so - but the description:

Quick to be offended - slow to forgive. Holding grudges longer than any other human, and "Legendary chelaxian wrath".

Does not sound too paladinish to me. Sounds more draconian to me. Thats just my opinion.

Robert

It just sounds to me like they're grumpy a lot (which I think they are). Having a bad temper and being grumpy doesn't make someone evil or wicked, IMO, it just makes that person bad tempered and grumpy. *shrug*

Timespike wrote:

PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, but you're being too simplistic. "Quick to be offended by what?" Is a good first question. If you take those traits and run them through a filter of Lawful Good, you wind up with something like Solomon Kane. A very intense, driven, and even vengeful person, to be sure. But an utterly heroic and noble one as well. Being offended by a trivial insult and never forgiving is one thing. Being offended by tyranny and bringing down an evil government because of it is another altogether.

obviously our definition of "quick to be offended" differs. I consider someone being offended by tyrrany to be a normal or expected outcome.

Contrastly walking down a hall and getting attack by thugs because you cast a glance at them....thats quick to be offended.

Furthermore Lawful Good can have various interpretation (you can ask 10 people to describe it and you'll get 15 different answers) but a paladin (ideally) is not JUST Lawful-good - he is a representation that should even supercede most who are lawful-good. A paragon example.

Finally, just to make sure I didn't take being called simplistic the wrong way; what is the right way I should take it?

Robert

I suppose I should have put "in your interpretation of the psychological makeup of the average Chelaxian" at the end of the sentence? I certainly didn't mean it as an insult (which is what I was trying to avoid you taking it as. I apparently failed spectacularly. Sorry!). Anyway, you're right, but if they're offended by tyranny, then they're not wicked. ;)

I'm going to try not to offend you any further, but paragons of lawful goodness aren't always the nicest people you ever would meet. In fact, I would imagine some of them would be pretty cranky (particularly dwarves). And if dwarves can be cranky, why not Chelaxians? There's always the "noble exception," too. I've seen tiefling paladins, drow paladins, half-orc paladins, and even one half-black-dragon paladin so why not Chelaxians? Besides, wasn't it mentioned that Cheliax was LG before the god died?

Robert Brambley wrote:

Perhaps so - but the description:

Quick to be offended - slow to forgive. Holding grudges longer than any other human, and "Legendary chelaxian wrath".

Does not sound too paladinish to me. Sounds more draconian to me. Thats just my opinion.

Robert

It just sounds to me like they're grumpy a lot (which I think they are). Having a bad temper and being grumpy doesn't make someone evil or wicked, IMO, it just makes that person bad tempered and grumpy. *shrug*

Okay Mike, I can accept that answer. Thank you.

Initially i didnt read "grumpy" If it had said grumpy, then it would invoke images of old men, possibly congressmen or judges or other such stately people. The term I got caught on was "legendary wrath" which I'm sure you can see why some would think that does not have a very good or happy sound to it - that invokes images of carnage and destruction - akin to fiends. Maybe it's wrath in the more subtle way of just "trying to get back at someone in a spiteful way" but "legendary wrath" is a very evocative term. I didn't get grumpy from that. :-) Which is why I asked for clarification.

I'm sure the big book in August will touch more on the Chelaxian's and that will probably be more insightful.

Thanks for helping me get a better understanding.

Nonetheless, I was looking for more of a KingArthur type of look of Western Europe knightly types - which the closest thing to the blue-eyed blond-haired look is the Ulfen (which evokes images of Vikings of course); and doesn't really fit the bill either.

I think a Ulfen/Chelaxian mix of heritage may work just nicely.

Robert

Anyway, you're right, but if they're offended by tyranny, then they're not wicked. ;)

I'm going to try not to offend you any further, but paragons of lawful goodness aren't always the nicest people you ever would meet. In fact, I would imagine some of them would be pretty cranky (particularly dwarves). And if dwarves can be cranky, why not Chelaxians? There's always the "noble exception," too. I've seen tiefling paladins, drow paladins, half-orc paladins, and even one...

Good point on the various paladins; and I believe your point of "diamond in the rough" wasn't lost on me either. Of course, Cranky dwarves makes sense as they have a statistical hindrance to their charisma. Do chelaxians? (never mind that rhetorical question; it was just meant that it's not a given that Chelaxians just cranky as it is with a race known for their lack of charisma)

You're right if they're offended by tyranny they're not wicked - but my point was if it takes something as grand (in scope) as a wicked tyranny full of vile filth, evil slavery, etc to become offended - then you're not "quick to be offended" Thats a BIG reason to be offended. Someone who gets angered because someone looked at them wrong, or mispronounced their name or cut them off in traffic so they go and ram them off the road - is 'quick to be offended and hard to forgive' in my mind.

Someone who is outraged and angered because some guy broke into a house, raped and killed a 9 year old girl is not necessarily "quick to be offended." That SHOULD offend everyone! including many people who hadn't been truly outraged in quite some time.

Thanks for the help, Spike.
Robert

Lawful good but easily offended, makes me think prudish and not afraid to scold.

Lawful good but easily offended, makes me think prudish and not afraid to scold.

Or maybe even hypersensitive of really petty injustices. The kind of person who will berate someone for half an hour using words like "vile" and "reprehensible" for not giving up their bus seat to a pregnant woman immediately when she gets on the bus.

David Schwartz wrote:

Lawful good but easily offended, makes me think prudish and not afraid to scold.

Or maybe even hypersensitive of really petty injustices. The kind of person who will berate someone for half an hour using words like "vile" and "reprehensible" for not giving up their bus seat to a pregnant woman immediately when she gets on the bus.

LOL this is cool stuff! I can totally see this type of personality. Hell, I've experienced this type of personality. It wasn't the first atypical personality template that I concocted when I though of a paladin (as opposed to the diplomatic, patient, humble and forgiving ideas that I typically envision in a such a paragon example of goodness) but I CAN totally see a pious holy type being that way as well - especially if they have a holier than thou personality - which many religious figures do harbor.

This is good stuff and I'm liking it more and more as I sit and think about a what personality I want to establish....

Originally, I started this thread because I wanted more info on Shoanti people - because that was what I was thinking of doing my new paladin - but instead I've gotten a good crash-course on Chelaxian that has totally altered my initial assessment of them.

Robert

Timespike wrote:

David Schwartz wrote:

Lawful good but easily offended, makes me think prudish and not afraid to scold.

Or maybe even hypersensitive of really petty injustices. The kind of person who will berate someone for half an hour using words like "vile" and "reprehensible" for not giving up their bus seat to a pregnant woman immediately when she gets on the bus.

LOL this is cool stuff! I can totally see this type of personality. Hell, I've experienced this type of personality. It wasn't the first atypical personality template that I concocted when I though of a paladin (as opposed to the diplomatic, patient, humble and forgiving ideas that I typically envision in a such a paragon example of goodness) but I CAN totally see a pious holy type being that way as well - especially if they have a holier than thou personality - which many religious figures do harbor.

This is good stuff and I'm liking it more and more as I sit and think about a what personality I want to establish....

Originally, I started this thread because I wanted more info on Shoanti people - because that was what I was thinking of doing my new paladin - but instead I've gotten a good crash-course on Chelaxian that has totally altered my initial assessment of them.

Robert

For what it's worth, I've played a large number of paladins in games under several different GMs and I've tried to do a different personality every time. There are four that "stick out" to me, however. The first one, a devil slayer, was a "consummate professional". He wasn't mean or cruel at all, but he was somewhat cold and distant until fiends showed up. The second one was a very grim, guilt-ridden, vengeful type. He was dangerous and scary as hell, but the other PCs felt pretty sorry for him a lot. The next one was a laid-back and kindhearted, but mysterious family man (he had rogue levels and volunteered almost nothing about himself. The other players didn't even figure out that he was a paladin for a few sessions). The one I'm playing now is a very rustic and protection-oriented paladin of Erastil. Paladins, despite the alignment restrictions, can be pretty varied. It's always bugged me (and I get the impression that it bugs you, too) that so many people think paladins should all be exact carbon copies of each other. Have fun with it. :)

For what it's worth, I've played a large number of paladins in games under several different GMs and I've tried to do a different personality every time. There are four that "stick out" to me, however. The first one, a devil slayer, was a "consummate professional". He wasn't mean or cruel at all, but he was somewhat cold and distant until fiends showed up. The second one was a very grim, guilt-ridden, vengeful type. He was dangerous and scary as hell, but the other PCs felt pretty sorry for him a lot. The next one was a laid-back and kindhearted, but mysterious family man (he had rogue levels and volunteered almost nothing about himself. The other players didn't even figure out that he...

I have as well. The "doomed champion" is a good one that I've played (sounding much like the one your other players felt sorry for.) But by far and wide my absolute favorite and one I love to play the most is the "Kal-el" superman, personality. Ultra good and chilvaric and all about truth and justice and protecting the meek and saving innocents. Thats the role I most cherish playing. Superman was my childhood hero - and so that has really rubbed off on my fantasy gaming. I concede after yours and Mike's comments that Cheliax people could be a paladin; but I dont see them as the "Kal-El" type in personality that I am looking to play. (generally speaking).

Robert

I've finished reading the Gaz from cover to cover, and my initial impression remains the same.

This is made of win, and I can see myself running a campaign in every country.

Well done, Paizo, well done.

Timespike wrote:

For what it's worth, I've played a large number of paladins in games under several different GMs and I've tried to do a different personality every time. There are four that "stick out" to me, however. The first one, a devil slayer, was a "consummate professional". He wasn't mean or cruel at all, but he was somewhat cold and distant until fiends showed up. The second one was a very grim, guilt-ridden, vengeful type. He was dangerous and scary as hell, but the other PCs felt pretty sorry for him a lot. The next one was a laid-back and kindhearted, but mysterious family man (he had rogue levels and volunteered almost nothing about himself. The other players didn't even figure out that he...

I have as well. The "doomed champion" is a good one that I've played (sounding much like the one your other players felt sorry for.) But by far and wide my absolute favorite and one I love to play the most is the "Kal-el" superman, personality. Ultra good and chilvaric and all about truth and justice and protecting the meek and saving innocents. Thats the role I most cherish playing. Superman was my childhood hero - and so that has really rubbed off on my fantasy gaming. I concede after yours and Mike's comments that Cheliax people could be a paladin; but I dont see them as the "Kal-El" type in personality that I am looking to play. (generally speaking).

Robert

You know, an unusually-disciplined Varisian might work well. They tend good (though chaotic) and have no problem with the wandering lifestyle an adventurer leads.

Initially i didnt read "grumpy" If it had said grumpy, then it would invoke images of old men, possibly congressmen or judges or other such stately people. The term I got caught on was "legendary wrath" which I'm sure you can see why some would think that does not have a very good or happy sound to it - that invokes images of carnage and destruction - akin to fiends.

It is a failing of mine to drop into hyperbole and excessive use of adjectives and adverbs. I apologize for the my legendary blunder.

Nonetheless, I was looking for more of a KingArthur type of look of Western Europe knightly types - which the closest thing to the blue-eyed blond-haired look is the Ulfen (which evokes images of Vikings of course); and doesn't really fit the bill either.

Yeah, I think we're just now realizing that, oops!, we forgot to put in an ethnicity that is known for its uprightness and valor, sort of like the Rohirrim and Gondor folk. I guess Golarion is a little darker and meaner than I thought. lol

Yeah, I think we're just now realizing that, oops!, we forgot to put in an ethnicity that is known for its uprightness and valor, sort of like the Rohirrim and Gondor folk. I guess Golarion is a little darker and meaner than I thought. lol

That doesn't mean you cant add them as you go along. Just because they are not in this part of the world doesn't mean that there isn't a group in Arcadia or on the other side of the great ice shelf that are not know for patience understanding, valor and forthrightness. They could even be oppossed to the "settlement" of their lands from all these people from across the sea.

I just recently purchased the gazeteer and am very impressed with it. I have a small question, however. What is the correct pronunciation of Cheliax? I want to put a French spin on the word and say "Chel-e-aa" but one of my players thinks it's "Chel-e-ax" and another thinks it's "Chel-e-az."

Thanks,

V

Robert Brambley wrote:

Initially i didnt read "grumpy" If it had said grumpy, then it would invoke images of old men, possibly congressmen or judges or other such stately people. The term I got caught on was "legendary wrath" which I'm sure you can see why some would think that does not have a very good or happy sound to it - that invokes images of carnage and destruction - akin to fiends.

It is a failing of mine to drop into hyperbole and excessive use of adjectives and adverbs. I apologize for the my legendary blunder.

Robert Brambley wrote:

Nonetheless, I was looking for more of a KingArthur type of look of Western Europe knightly types - which the closest thing to the blue-eyed blond-haired look is the Ulfen (which evokes images of Vikings of course); and doesn't really fit the bill either.

Yeah, I think we're just now realizing that, oops!, we forgot to put in an ethnicity that is known for its uprightness and valor, sort of like the Rohirrim and Gondor folk. I guess Golarion is a little darker and meaner than I thought. lol

And you have HOW much of the map unfilled yet? I think You've got room. Put them right next to something incredibly nasty and have them be just crawling in paladins. Like one adult in every 200 or so. Besides, just because you don't have a group that tends lawful good doesn't mean that everybody's bad, either. The native Varisians don't seem too bad as a whole.

Yeah, I think we're just now realizing that, oops!, we forgot to put in an ethnicity that is known for its uprightness and valor, sort of like the Rohirrim and Gondor folk. I guess Golarion is a little darker and meaner than I thought. lol

well, I'm glad I could help with that.

Robert

I just recently purchased the gazeteer and am very impressed with it. I have a small question, however. What is the correct pronunciation of Cheliax? I want to put a French spin on the word and say "Chel-e-aa" but one of my players thinks it's "Chel-e-ax" and another thinks it's "Chel-e-az."

CHEL-ee-ax

CHEL-ee-ax

chel-ee-IZZ-ul, baby!

Mike McArtor wrote:

CHEL-ee-ax

chel-ee-IZZ-ul, baby!

Mike's baby's name is Shelley? Interesting...:)

Ahh, finally the mailman put a copy of the Gazetteer in my sweaty, trembling hands. My hands are sweaty and trembling not only because of exitement, but because I suffer a serious cold! D'oh! It's disgusting, but the good thing is, that I can't do anything else than lying around in various locations, inhaling that healthy Gazetteer!
Oh, and in the moment I'm finished, I'll head over to the other thread to post my three favorite!

Is there a download of this?

I just acquired the .pdf version. I'm quite pleased with it. The discount for being a subscriber was an added bonus.

Debby

Is there a download of this?

Yes—it's available here.