A great review

Thanks for the info, Callum.

As this seems to be based on "Keep on the Borderlands", I'd be interested in hearing any comparisons to that adventure. While KOTB is fondly remembered by many of us as our 1st adventure (mine was actually "Into the Unknown"), if you re-read it now you may form a different opinion.

I don't understand why they think the delve format increases page count.

Sir Urza, it does inflate page count, as referenced in posts subsequent to yours.

I do freely admit that the format is ideal for those who can only run "out of the can". Even so, I do make a point to read the text of whatever it is I'm running for a given session at least once, generally more often than that.

Callum Finlayson does an excellent review of the product as well - hopefully he has also posted a Product Review of his own, as his hits on points I missed during my examination of the product and/or goes into further detail than I did on certain points.

Excellent review Sir Finlayson! ^_^ (Not so good for WotC, I am afraid.)

At the $30 MSRP price tag, I am VERY leery of 4e modules at this point. Many of the gamers in our area try to support the FLGS - but as a group we are going to shy away from doing so when what equates to a realistic page count of 64 for a module (factoring in a modest 20% reduction of anything in the Delve format) at anywhere from 50% to 300% of the MSRP of any of their competitors' products of a comparable or superior level of product quality and content.

Is this suppose to get me to go to 4.0???

As I said in the title I won't be going to 4.0. I was honestly intrigued by it, and had read the boards & I wanted this so i could give it an honest try. It fails to impress.

Pros: None really except they changed the format of how the adventure is presented to a much easier way with the mini map local right where the game information for that local is.

Cons:3 large maps, two of which are from other products which thankfully I hadn't bought.
Rules for 4.0 that are not clear, no flavour, and turn wizards into sorcerers or machine guns
Art has pictures of 3 main villians and 2 locals & thats it, not bad but for a showcase item fails to impress.
The adventure is Keep on the Borderlands & is nothing special which again for a showcase item why not try & wow us but really just no omph to it

Is this suppose to get me to go to 4.0???

As I said in the title I won't be going to 4.0. I was honestly intrigued by it, and had read the boards & I wanted this so i could give it an honest try. It fails to impress.

Pros: None really except they changed the format of how the adventure is presented to a much easier way with the mini map local right where the game information for that local is.

Cons:3 large maps, two of which are from other products which thankfully I hadn't bought.
Rules for 4.0 that are not clear, no flavour, and turn wizards into sorcerers or machine guns
Art has pictures of 3 main villians and 2 locals & thats it, not bad but for a showcase item fails to impress.
The adventure is Keep on the Borderlands & is nothing special which again for a showcase item why not try & wow us but really just no omph to it

I think we all suspected that WotC was going to come up short in the adventure design department, which makes the previous alienation of 3rd party publishers all the more mystifying. That said, I'm looking forward to the new system.

H = Heroic (levels 1-10).

Though it also references the classic "beat up Orcus" H-series of modules from 2E... :D

turn wizards into sorcerers or machine guns

Don't worry, Pathfinder RPG's trying to do that too! :P

The letters refer to the suggested level tiers.

H = Heroic (1-10)
P = Paragon (11-20)
E = Epic (21-30)

Well, my friends and I started playing this adventure last night. Characters were chosen (though, the adventure assumes 5 characters participate which meant that I as the DM had to play a character as well) and we dived right in after a short talk about some of the differences between 3.5 and 4th Ed. Needless to say, we ran into more than a few snags during the first battle as we attempted to divest ourselves of our 3.5 knowledge and start trying to learn 4E rules.

Some things that stood out to me, either from my own observations or from comments made by the players:

-- For those players that liked playing simple characters--those requiring little reading and thought--like fighters or barbarians in 3.5, 4E is a little daunting with all the powers and abilities, even at 1st level.

-- Crits are a little underwhelming, especially for the rogue who's using daggers.

-- The rogue's player wasn't happy with not being able to feint in combat with the Bluff skill.

-- Battle doesn't seem to take any less time... It probably took us an hour to finish the first battle, though admittedly we had to keep looking up rules.

Concerning the adventure itself, it is somewhat underwhelming, especially for the price. Most of it is a hack fest where you cut down bunches of typically low level humanoid foes that have been encountered in many introductory adventures before (Sunless Citadel... Crown of the Kobold King... Pathfinder #1). How much is it to ask to get some original newbie foes?

I'll write more of my observations once my group gets further into the adventure...

Threats comes out on tuesday also.

You only threaten people on Tuesdays?

That is goo to know..;-)

The package and format are almost identical to Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde but instead of the quite good and useful mini-campaign setting we got with Shattered Gates we get some quick start rules. The adventure itself is nowhere near as interesting as Shattered gates imo. As far as similarities to KoTB it's low level and the players base of operations is a small village outside a mysterious keep but that's about it.

I have to agree about the underwhelming nature of the story for this adventure. I mean, come on WTOC. I recall last night setting it down next to my latest Pathfinder module and thinking, WOW, this doesn't even compare. Not in the slightest.

I don't know if it was stripped down to the barest of bones because it is an introductory adventure OR if this is what we can expect 4E to be, i.e. all combat set ups.

The Pros (things I'd like to see Paizo do):

- Love getting poster maps
- Love the "multi-room" combat concept
- Love the combat presentation, i.e. it gives a set up, positions monsters, and provides detailed stat blocks
- I kind of like the concept of minions, although I'm not sure how I like the idea that they officially have 1 hp. I'd rather they'd just said that they automatically go down on a successful hit rather than having to go to the extent of saying they have 1 hp.

The Cons:

- It's a really cliched and pretty boring story. I can't emphasize this enough. Come on, guys. On the other hand, since I'm planning on completely revamping the story and setting this in Stormreach on Xen'Drik, maybe that's not a bad thing after all.

I'm undecided on the game system. I like a bunch of the concepts, like 4 defense scores, that warriors have martial maneuvers, etc. But, I'm not sure I'm sold on the complete elimination of the Vancian 9-level spell system.

The skill DCs seemed VERY low when compared to the skill bonuses these 1st level characters had.

One of the enemies, a 3rd level or 4th level solo brute had 300+ hit points. WHAT?!?!?! Character damage output didn't seem THAT much higher, but I haven't playtested it, so maybe it is.

Yes, I'm thinking I'm going to require the full rule books to really make a decision on 4th Ed. But, I'll continue running this adventure so we can learn the rules somewhat.

One of the enemies, a 3rd level or 4th level solo brute had 300+ hit points. WHAT?!?!?! Character damage output didn't seem THAT much higher, but I haven't playtested it, so maybe it is.

The guy with 325HP, AC20, and wish requirement to kill (or was that somebody else?) is good and the PCs aren't expected to fight him; but point taken -- there are several baddies with triple-digit-hitpoints.

I can't be bothered to work the numbers out correctly, but approximately (assuming a single 1st level dwarf fighter vs a single 2nd level kobold soldier, and assuming the dwarf "reaps" each round rather than cleaving which would auto-kill a 1hp minion))...

1st level dwarf fighter
HP 31 AC 17
To hit +6 Dmg 2d6+3 (10)
reaping strike = 3 dmg to target on a miss

2nd level kobold soldier
HP 36 AC 18
To hit +7 Dmg 1d6+3 (6.5)

D +6v18=45%, dmg = (0.40 x 10) + (0.55 x 3) + (0.05 x 15) = 6.4hp/rnd
K +7v17=55%, dmg = (0.50 x 6.5) + 0 + (0.05 x 9) = 3.7hp/rnd

Edited to correct the hp/round
and to add the ObModuleNumbering comment that H is for Heroic :)

For that matter, what the hell does H1 mean?

U is for Urban.
W is for Wilderness.
J is for Journey.
D is for Dungeon.
E is for Event.

...wtf is 'H'?!

Based on the labels I've seen for upcoming 4th ed modules, it looks like the non-world specific modules will be using the labels H, P and E to denote the level range of the module. Hence:

H = Heroic tier (Levels 1-10)
P = Paragon tier (Levels 11-20)
E = Epic tier (Levels 21-30)

Campaign specific modules appear to be so labeled, or at least, the one Forgotten Realms module announced is currently labeled FR1.

crap, just noticed someone beat me to this - didn't see that on the front page comments.

There's a dialogue section for gathering info and such that I found very useful.

Most of the encounters were sort of mediocre, but the last scene rocks really hard.

And yes, I suspect the adventure is a callback to keep on the borderlands.

Based on the labels I've seen for upcoming 4th ed modules, it looks like the non-world specific modules will be using the labels H, P and E to denote the level range of the module. Hence:

H = Heroic tier (Levels 1-10)
P = Paragon tier (Levels 11-20)
E = Epic tier (Levels 21-30)

Campaign specific modules appear to be so labeled, or at least, the one Forgotten Realms module announced is currently labeled FR1.

crap, just noticed someone beat me to this - didn't see that on the front page comments.

Don't feel bad. By my count your about the 15th person to answer the question, which is an astounding 10%+ of this thread.

;)

Most likely, this means that ALL adventures will be marked this way, perhaps leading to large numbers for H. Anyone feel like they'll use this to reference adventures?

"You remember that Poison Ooze in H34?" =)

H must equal hubris in this case.

I believe that H1 would be "Heroic."

I think 'H' stands for Heroic, that is levels 1-10.

Game on!
- Corey

18 and still growing. :/

Odonna Mirrin wrote:

turn wizards into sorcerers or machine guns

Don't worry, Pathfinder RPG's trying to do that too! :P

How do you figure?

18 and still growing. :/

"H" is for "Heroic".

Had to do it. Especially after reading this entire thread.

19.

'H' is for Hero-tier, isn't it?

I having seen the U...rban, D...ungeon etc monikers before. Seems interesting, though not really suitable to a campaign arc/adventure path that would normally include more than one of urban/dungeon/journey etc.

Keep smiling,
S

Lewy wrote:

Odonna Mirrin wrote:

turn wizards into sorcerers or machine guns

Don't worry, Pathfinder RPG's trying to do that too! :P

How do you figure?

And there was me thinking my sarcasm was going to go unanswered!

The ability for mages to continually cast spells in a never ending stream is exactly what the original poster was complaining about aimed at this 4E adventure. The two systems have both gone this direction. Personally I think this is a shame.

Oh, and I think H is for Heroic. 21! :)

I've read the whole thread and I just cant seem to find it anywhere, what does H stand for?

Elcian

I've read the whole thread and I just cant seem to find it anywhere, what does H stand for?

Elcian

"H" Stands for Hobert. Duh. :)

Fantastic, cant wait for the "E" designated modules.

Elcian

H= Hoo-Ya!!

H is for *Hey why is this mediocre Module so frigging expensive*

My guess is H = Heroic, the first tier of 4th Edition character progression.

IIRC...
Heroic = Levels 1-10
Paragon = Levels 11-20
Epic = Level 21-30

EDIT: *sigh* Note to self: Open a thread and read it fully rather than replying from the topic except on the Product Detail page in the store...

So a dwarf is walking along a cave and sees a goblin, hopping up and down on a large iron grate in the shape of the letter "H", calling out "four hands and three; four hands and three!"

"By Osric! What does that "H" stand for, and why your confounded parrotting of 'four-hands-and-three"?"

The goblin stops, grins, and opens the grate, showing a staircase. "See for dwarf-self!"

For that matter, what the hell does H1 mean?

U is for Urban.
W is for Wilderness.
J is for Journey.
D is for Dungeon.
E is for Event.

...wtf is 'H'?!

Remember, you are talking two different companies here. WotC has their own scheme, just like Paizo. The five you posted are Paizo's numbering scheme, not WotC.

As for the actual product, I have yet to see it and after reading a few responses here and elsewhere, I am a bit gun-shy about it at the moment. We'll have to wait and see what the actual game brings about.

[Slight Edit] Teaches me to not look at the page number at the bottom of the screen. Sorry... looks like this has been answered several times over. *blush*

Its like some insidious virtual pit trap.

I think we all suspected that WotC was going to come up short in the adventure design department, which makes the previous alienation of 3rd party publishers all the more mystifying. That said, I'm looking forward to the new system.

I wasn't suspecting that this adventure would come up short at all. I mean... it's Bruce Cordell! I love this guy's work.

I got my copy rather quickly (Thanks, Paizo!), but I've only glanced over it, so I can't give a in-depth review. Here are my first thoughts:

I love the DM's quick-start rules. They are more in-depth than the player handout, and they answered a lot of my questions of 4e mechanics.

I would have liked the covers to be thicker. The covers are printed on the same paper as the entire booklet.

The adventure seems okay, but I haven't looked at very much. But they did pick my favorited low-level bad guys, so I'm happy about that.

I'll post more later.

H1 comes from 1st pre-made adventure for Hero Levels (levels 1-10), just as there are P1 for Paragon levels and E1 for Epic.

For that matter, what the hell does H1 mean?

U is for Urban.
W is for Wilderness.
J is for Journey.
D is for Dungeon.
E is for Event.

...wtf is 'H'?!

Paizo uses those letters. Wizards of the Coast, which is the company that wrote and published this adventure uses H for Heroic Tier, P for Paragon Tier or E for Epic Tier. You would have to read the descriptive text to find out what type of setting dominates the adventure.

For that matter, what the hell does H1 mean?

U is for Urban.
W is for Wilderness.
J is for Journey.
D is for Dungeon.
E is for Event.

...wtf is 'H'?!

H is for Heroic

For that matter, what the hell does H1 mean?

U is for Urban.
W is for Wilderness.
J is for Journey.
D is for Dungeon.
E is for Event.

...wtf is 'H'?!

I never knew what the first letters stood for and I started playing in '80. Thanks man. Seems obvious now but I never saw that anywhere befre here.