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I am VERY upset to see your "Baked Baked Plush" doll. My wife and I are both teachers of high risk students and my daughter works in drug rehabilitation and we have a FIRM, IRON-CLAD POLICY against spending money on any merchant who supports a drug lifestyle. The doll whose "activities include baking batches of special brownies, ripping crispy bingers and burning bowls followed by the consumption of large quantities of chips, cookies, candy bars, ice cream, pizza, pretty much anything edible and some things that aren't" certainly qualifies.
Anything that sends the message "you can celebrate your drug use with this purchase" is not acceptable to me. I estimate I have spent over $200 on Paizo products in the last year and was considering subscribing to your "Pathfinder" periodical. That is out of the question if you choose to market and sell this doll. Marijuana use is a "starter" for almost every other drug out there.
Between students and clients my family has seen one tragic death, one suicide, at least two murders, multiple life-changing injuries, multiple jail sentences (including two life sentences) and more than a few drop-outs related to drug use. We take this matter seriously and will not "get over it" or "lighten up" about "just pot."
I really hope I can spend money on Paizo products again. Send this doll back to the manufacturer now.
I'll agree that its a perplexing item to have on the site. Its not really a "gamer" or "geek" thing, and the site really does try to maintain a friendly attitude toward younger gamers and potential gamers. I'll not tell you what to sell, but I can agree that I'm not sure this is the greatest choice for the site.
Hi everyone.
This discussion started over at ENWorld and I told Firebeetle to bring it over here where the Paizo people will see it. As I mentioned in that thread, our database of products automatically lists everything available from Alliance, so please don't get mad at us.
Please everyone, let's keep the discussion here friendly. We've already seen enough angriness over on the ENWorld boards on both sides of the debate, and I don't think we want to bring that here. :)
When the bosses get back from Gen Con, I'll make sure they see this thread.
Thanks everyone for your cooperation and understanding. I hope we can come to a solution agreeable to everyone. :)
Marijuana use is a "starter" for almost every other drug out there.
While I'm very anti-drug personally, this statement is something of a fallacy (mind you I'm not trying to crap on your personal experience).
This is the first time I have been truly bothered by something I have seen offered from the Paizo team.
Sooo....the modules full of sexual innuendos, dismemberment, torture, and drug use have been totally no big dealio then?
Do you listen to music, read books, or watch movies?
See I think drugs have done some good things for us. If you don't think drugs have done good things for us then do me a favor. Go home tonight and take all of your records,tapes and all your CD's and burn them. Because, you know all those musicians who made all that great music that's enhanced your lives throughout the years? Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreal f##+ing high on drugs, man. - Bill Hicks (apologies for the vulgarity in there but it seemed wrong to censor a direct quote)
I'm not about to buy one for my child, but I'm sure some stoner would love one for theirs (assuming the pot hasn’t rendered them infertile or filled them with birth defects by this time). As the saying goes, the world needs ditch diggers too.
Hey, you ignorant bastard. I am a "Ditch Digger", I plumb..I'm a plumber, you have to dig trenches for that sort of thing. You like poop in your house? I don't. And I certainly don't do drugs or drink and if you can believe it I don't drool. Neither do any of the people that I work with. One guy speaks kinda funny but that's about it. Digging ditches is hard work. Dangerous work. And you can make good money doing it. So stop pointing your soft fat little finger at people that you think are beneath you. Whether that is ditch diggers or people with drug problems or what ever. This isn't the first time I have heard the words Ditch Digger used as a derogatory term on there boards.
As far as toys that promote drug culture, what ever makes paizo money I'm cool with. If that means getting rid of 'em then fine. I have no problem with them.
Hey, you ignorant bastard. I am a "Ditch Digger", I plumb..I'm a plumber, you have to dig trenches for that sort of thing. You like poop in your house? I don't. And I certainly don't do drugs or drink and if you can believe it I don't drool. Neither do any of the people that I work with. One guy speaks kinda funny but that's about it. Digging ditches is hard work. Dangerous work. And you can make good money doing it. So stop pointing your soft fat little finger at people that you think are beneath you. Whether that is ditch diggers or people with drug problems or what ever. This isn't the first time I have heard the words Ditch Digger used as a derogatory term on there boards.
As far as toys that promote drug culture, what ever makes paizo money I'm cool with. If that means getting rid of 'em then fine. I have no problem with them.
Normally I don't single anyone out (though I apparently did, and offended you by doing so, which I apologize for), but by flailing away with ignorant stereotypes you're only demeaning yourself (I’m aware of the hypocrisy in that statement, given my apparently ill-advised ditch digger comment). I actually spend a good part of my time doing CPR on drug addicts. As for manual laborers, they (you) do deserve equal respect, maybe a little larger share even. However, with this sort of diatribe, I must confess I do find it difficult to believe you are capable of holding a conversation without drooling.
"Gateway Drug"
I smoked pot. I didn't smoke crack. The only reason both might have come from the same source (a criminal) was because of the law. I taught English in high school for several years before accepting my current job and I have seen students who drink and do drugs, and neither one of them impressed me. When I was in high school a friend of mine was raped while she was drunk. I've never met a girl who was raped after smoking copious amounts of pot. My best friend's dad was killed by a drunk driver. I know two people who died of lung cancer smoking cigarettes.
Why do I say these things? Because I think the issue is far more complicated than saying "marijuana is bad" and people who do so really annoy me.
Our young people having a future and being able to think for themselves seems to me to be far more important than generalizations about drug users.
Whatever. Go elect a former crack user (sorry, coke sniffer, ed.)as president.
"Ditch Diggers"
I dug a few ditches in my time. My fingers are "soft" these days, though. You know, I met a lot of morons while I was a landscaping foreman. I met some really sharp, hardworking people, too. I'm not offended. Go figure.
"Baked Baked Plush"
What a dumb plush toy, and I say that as someone who has smoked a few bowls. I don't even think it would sell in a Head shop... unless it was stuffed with weed or came with a free bong.
I am VERY upset to see your "Baked Baked Plush" doll....
I really hope I can spend money on Paizo products again. Send this doll back to the manufacturer now.
My guess is they'll pull it. Any takers?
By the way, why is it BLACK? Next thing you know it's going to be the white "Studious Bob" plush toy....
Just stirring it up, baby!
Just change "Baked Baked Plush" to the Nathan 'Dreads' Iron DM action figure and that should stop the complaining. It's quite a resemblance.
I think they should probably pull this thing. It's just stupid. Paizo is for gaming. While I'd be happy to discuss the rights and wrongs of the subject (from a position of total ignorance, never having smoked anything) on this website, I don't think it is an appropriate thing to see advertised anywhere much except a pro-legalisation website.
And as someone points out, it is black. Racist? Tokenist? PC? God knows. It's just a can of worms in plush form, and a stupid joke that probably should not have got off the drawing board.
I think they should probably pull this thing. It's just stupid. Paizo is for gaming. While I'd be happy to discuss the rights and wrongs of the subject (from a position of total ignorance, never having smoked anything) on this website, I don't think it is an appropriate thing to see advertised anywhere much except a pro-legalisation website.
Hallelujah!
It's a plush toy for heavens sake. In other words for kids.
And from a pothead perspective, it neither humorously celebrates the dope life nor explicitly satirizes it.
What were they (those who made it) thinking.... oh, wait, I get it: they were right f@~$ing rocked on wheelchair herb when they decided to market it.
Just to chime in my 2 coppers, but has anyone seen the other doll they're offering. The "Bliss bliss doll? happiness to the point of questionable sanity? It is in no way apprpriate either, though maybe not as inappropriate as this one. I have a feeling this entire line is going to be this way, and I for one won't buy any. Personally, I would like them pulled from the shop, but should that not happen I see no reason to let the fact that they carry some inappropriate things to hinder my shopping here. And it's not like it's the first questionable thing in their store (Hentacle, anyone?).
It gets better. They have a teddybear that curses. What the crap where they thinking? Pfffffffsnork.....gack. Wait, wait, it's got feet like a duck....but it's furry. Dude, dude, make it POISONOUS! Oh heck yeah man...pfffffffftttttt.
Honestly, if no one buys it, shouldn't the product line be self-correcting? Still, it makes you feel like the lawyer who has to defend the KKK; they have rights, but man would you love to put a bootprint on their face regardless.
Y'know...I think that swearbear line may be the most offensive thing I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot. I have to know just what these guys were thinking. Seriously. Are they run by juvinile 12 year olds?
And I think you're right Mwbeeler. If no one buys them then they should go away by themselves, but since the swearbears havn't, and are in fact collecting preorders for new ones, I think the only recourse is to state plainly how offensive the products are and hope Paizo drops the lines.
Hey y'all:
We'll take a look at these toys when we get back from GenCon. We have content that we sell on the website that isn't intended for all people. We usually tag this as adult content so that folks who are less than 18 can't actually see it. Looks like we missed this product. I'll have Gary switch the picture on the blog.
We try to offer a wide range of products that appeal to all tastes. Some of it is adult content and it goes all the way to Christian card and board games. To each his own. I don't want to make paizo.com a place where I personally make decisions about what is right and wrong, and what people should buy or not. So my suggestion is to buy the stuff that you want and don't buy the other stuff. If enough folks don't buy items, they eventually die off.
Thanks!
-Lisa
I don't want to make paizo.com a place where I personally make decisions about what is right and wrong, and what people should buy or not.
Point taken. However, products celebrating illegal activities go a bit beyond personal morality. But if it is in the 18+ section, I can't see any harm - I doubt anyone will end up a dope fiend after seeing a picture of a plush toy.
I'm hoping, vis a vis Mike McArtor's comments above, that the inclusion of this item is merely an oversight. On the other hand, what else would you expect from the Paizo folks? Paizo's production values and customer service are tops, but they hardly corner the market on (or seem interested in, IMO) family values. Their choice of suppliers is proof.
However, products celebrating illegal activities go a bit beyond personal morality. But if it is in the 18+ section, I can't see any harm - I doubt anyone will end up a dope fiend after seeing a picture of a plush toy.
I don't really see how this toy itself celebrates drug lifestyles. I find a black stick man rather ambiguous in this regard. Rather, it is the fact that the product blurb seems to be taking pot smoking in a light and uncritical manner that would suggest to me it belongs in an adult section.
Also, talking about pot smoking is not illegal, and nobody is telling anyone to smoke a bowl, although talking about it on this thread has unfortunately brought this thought to mind. Perhaps I have a p... p... problem. *Twitch*
...but they hardly corner the market on (or seem interested in, IMO) family values. Their choice of suppliers is proof.
And that, you know, one of the major aspects of our company supports a game that glorifies violence and theft. ;)
And that, you know, one of the major aspects of our company supports a game that glorifies violence and theft. ;)
Technically it glorifies heroism. the violence and theft for the greater good are just an added bonus. :)
This stoner plush toy stuff is just so much more interesting than the five or more 4th ed threads. Reading it, I really was surprised to see some of the stuff Paizo is selling that I've never browsed....
(Well, this is going to be an interesting weekend on the boards, although not as interesting as the days following the announcement of the cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon.)
And that, you know, one of the major aspects of our company supports a game that glorifies violence and theft. ;)
That had occured to me. But you could also say that - by and large - it actually glorifies the righting of wrongs in a very muscular fashion. It also does it in a fantasy setting which is not really anything to do with real life at all. I think the problem with the plush is that it deals with a real world concern in a flippantly stupid way which isn't so easy to compartmentalise into a fantasy universe. Or something. Anyway, the issue is dealt with now.
"Gateway Drug"
I smoked pot. I didn't smoke crack. The only reason both might have come from the same source (a criminal) was because of the law. I taught English in high school for several years before accepting my current job and I have seen students who drink and do drugs, and neither one of them impressed me. When I was in high school a friend of mine was raped while she was drunk. I've never met a girl who was raped after smoking copious amounts of pot. My best friend's dad was killed by a drunk driver. I know two people who died of lung cancer smoking cigarettes.Why do I say these things? Because I think the issue is far more complicated than saying "marijuana is bad" and people who do so really annoy me.
Our young people having a future and being able to think for themselves seems to me to be far more important than generalizations about drug users.
Two weeks ago one of my wife’s students was picked up and charged with dealing marijuana. After being released he committed suicide. He was 16 years old. He had a family that loved him, they miss him terribly.
Two years ago, a former student of mine was playing with a gun his marijuana using mother had bought for him. Thinking it unloaded, he pointed it at his best friend, another former student, and pulled the trigger. The good news is that his best friend died instantly as the brain went through his skull. Another family is short a son. The shooter has to live with the guilt of killing his best friend forever. As far as I know, his mother still smokes pot.
A former client of my daughter’s had been a marijuana user when he decided to try something harder for the first time. A common scenario as marijuana gives the impression that drugs are safe to use. He and a friend of his went out under the influence of this drug, tortured and killed an old man (a father and grandfather.) The former client and his accomplice are now serving a life sentences.
I am not making any of this up, I wish to God I was. Nothing here is exaggerated. These are just a few examples of the dangers of marijuana use that I can personally attest to. So at the risk of annoying you, I’m going to “generalize” and say “marijuana is bad.”
I don’t know you personally, but I have to say you present a very classic set of addict arguments. I’ll restate these into statements, you can tell me if I’m incorrect.
1. I have used marijuana and have suffered no problems, therefore it is OK- I’ve seen addicts who cannot hold a job for over a month say this. I’ve seen addicts out of work, divorced and estranged from their families, and getting into violent brawls constantly say this. I’ve seen people in court for stealing to support their habit say this. Denial is in the nature of the drug. Users almost never admit there
But let’s say you really haven’t had a problem. As my three examples above show, this is not the case for everyone else. If marijuana was immediately as terrible as the end results, we wouldn’t be having this discourse. Drugs often destroy slowly, not to see that is unintelligent and unperceptive.
2. Alcohol and tobacco are legal drugs with terrible consequences, so marijuana is good- This is a fallacy. AIDS is bad, so herpes is good. Bears are bad, so lions are good. The reason the consequences for drugs and alcohol are so prevalent is because these drugs are legal and therefore usage is widespread. I find it ironic that some call for marijuana legalization on the basis of alcohol and tobacco legality, which would only increase usage of yet another problem drug. We really should be addressing the problems with alcohol and tobacco.
3. Marijuana isn’t the problem, it is harder drugs like crack that are the problem- Every drug destroys, but the consequences and time frame vary. Many drugs are immediately dangerous, others are more subtle and sinister. Tobacco, with its highly addictive quality, ready availability, slick advertising, and payload of carcinogens was denied as dangerous for decades. Marijuana’s victims range from suicide (it’s a depressant, after all) to people who simply drop out of existence (like the mother of the shooter above.) Finally, marijuana is the gateway drug (I find people understand “starter” more intuitively, but I am very familiar with the term) for those harder drugs like the murderer in the third example. It is the stepping stone for hard drug use. Without the stepping stone, the determined will still make it across the river but most will be dissuaded.
I absolutely think children need to think for themselves. That's why I think the message about the unacceptability of drugs needs to be loud and clear. Because they do choose, and they need to know from us that we as a society do not approve of drugs instead of selling them dolls and games.
Hey y'all:
We'll take a look at these toys when we get back from GenCon. We have content that we sell on the website that isn't intended for all people. We usually tag this as adult content so that folks who are less than 18 can't actually see it. Looks like we missed this product. I'll have Gary switch the picture on the blog.
We try to offer a wide range of products that appeal to all tastes. Some of it is adult content and it goes all the way to Christian card and board games. To each his own. I don't want to make paizo.com a place where I personally make decisions about what is right and wrong, and what people should buy or not. So my suggestion is to buy the stuff that you want and don't buy the other stuff. If enough folks don't buy items, they eventually die off.
Thanks!
-Lisa
“To each his own” In this response you legitimize drug use, you say, “some adults choose that, and that is OK.” I disagree.
We aren’t talking about a matter of taste here, we are talking about illegal drug use that is detrimental to our society and your company is making a profit from it. I’m going to try to summarize your response, please let me know if I’ve got it wrong. Since I’m dealing with inference here it’s tricky.
“Adults may choose to use illegal drugs if they want to. As a merchant, I can sell them merchandise that supports their drug lifestyle and profit from it, regardless of the social harm illegal drugs and their users cause.”
What, ma’am, is incorrect about this statement or do I have it right?
I am not claiming that the Baked Baked doll or Stoner Fluxx causes anyone to use drugs. They do, however, support the drug lifestyle. They let the drug user celebrate and revel in their addiction. It communicate to other users and gives them reason to discourse and socialize. In short, when a user buys your doll or game, they are buying acceptance. Drug subculture doesn’t need any help, yet here is Paizo profiting from it.
I have no problem, as some have suggested, with profiting from D&D. No matter the content and despite urban legends to the contrary, there is no evidence of social harm from D&D. In fact, research has found gamers have been found to be more likely to be law-abiding citizens with regular jobs, and (ironically) are less likely to commit suicide. There is no harm here. There is no harm in selling games, even ones with morbid themes, as games are a social activity in an ever-increasingly unsocial world. I don’t even have a problem with your Hentai porn. If some guy masturbates to a picture of a naked girl with a bat wing hat or a tail or cat slit eyes or something, I fail to see the victim other than some innocent sperm cells.
I must ask Ms. Stevens. How much profit do you make from these dolls, or from Stoner Fluxx? How much do legitimate merchants make from a user buying knick knacks and doodads that celebrate her favorite activity? Let’s say a user spends as much as I do on D&D, at least $500 a year. That seems generous.
How much do the rest of us pay? How much of their money goes to drug dealers who use it to fund their other criminal operations? How much do they steal from family, friends, and others to fund their habit? How much do we taxpayers spend on law enforcement to deal with them? How much do we spend on courts costs? How much to jail them? I’m willing to bet it is more than $500. That $3 to $6 dollars you made so your adult, drug using customer could feel good about her habit isn’t worth it.
The consequences of drug use on the user and on the rest of us are very, very real. They are often hard to see, as confidentiality restrictions and the rules of polite society blind most of the populace to it. For many of us who deal with this population, I can assure you it is horrifying. Are you really so comfortable profiting from that? I for one am not. Others feel as I do.
I have many Paizo issues of Dungeon and Dragon on my shelf. I’ve got the whole set of Steel Sqwire spell templates and maps. I frequently buy your material form my FLGS, scouting out your website ahead of those rare times I have cash. I look with envy at your Gamer Mastery miniature sets and little tile maps. I’d really hate not to be able to purchase these items when the money comes, and I hope you will not stay my hand further.
You’ve advised me to “not buy the items I don’t like.” That does not address the problem, which is profiting from drug usage. The message must be sent loud and clear. We as a society reject illegal drug use. It is not acceptable. If you accept the drug addict’s business for your drug-related items, you’re accepting her addiction. I will not buy from anyone who profits from drug use. I can’t spend my money here, nor on anything Paizo makes. It would not be responsible to the students and community I serve. I would dishonor those many victims I have already seen.
So long as Paizo profits from products that support a drug lifestyle, I will not purchase Paizo products and will encourage others to do the same. If you’re still unsure, please call your former partner Johnny. I have met him and I feel certain he will advise you well on this issue. You have stated you would rather not have to choose what does and does not appear on your site. That, in itself, is a choice.
I'm a teacher and it is the first of the year (hence missing Gen Con.) I've got a million things to do. Everybody else can have the last word. I feel I've made myself clear on this issue. If it belongs in a head shop, it doesn't belong on Paizo.com
“To each his own” In this response you legitimize drug use, you say, “some adults choose that, and that is OK.” I disagree.
We aren’t talking about a matter of taste here, we are talking about illegal drug use that is detrimental to our society and your company is making a profit from it. I’m going to try to summarize your response, please let me know if I’ve got it wrong. Since I’m dealing with inference here it’s tricky.
“Adults may choose to use illegal drugs if they want to. As a merchant, I can sell them merchandise that supports their drug lifestyle and profit from it, regardless of the social harm illegal drugs and their users cause.”
What, ma’am, is incorrect about this statement or do I have it right?
You obviously feel really strongly about this issue Firebettle, and I respect that. I have never used illegal drugs in my life and have seen many a friend go down a bad road thanks to marijuana or other narcotics. I feel you. However I think you are grossly over-reacting here.
This doll is the first in a line called "Posers." This doll as a product does not say to me: "YEAH! USE MARIJUANA!" It says, marijuana is for posers (which is a word young people are very familar with and really don't want to be), and the doll looks ridiculous. I don't think this product celebrates marijuana culture, I think is comments on it.
Paizo does not sell any products that celebrate drug culture. They don't sell bongs, or other paraphenalia. Maybe this doll stuck a bad chord with you immediately and that's a fair reaction, however you might want to reconsider the product's design and name. As a Poser, it's obviously not trumpeting pot-smokers as "cool" or something to aspire to.
It's great to exercise your dollar vote by boycotting irresponsible companies, however I can't think of a more responsible one than Paizo. It's dangerous ground when we start punishing or berating companies or anyone for touching on subjects that have such a high impact on our culture, such as illegal drugs (and this impact is highly negative in my opinion). I think products or publications that deal with these topics in ways that poke and prod and incite reactions are good. Posers, keep that in mind. The doll's not called "Super Pot Smoking Cool Doll."
“To each his own” In this response you legitimize drug use, you say, “some adults choose that, and that is OK.” I disagree.
We aren’t talking about a matter of taste here, we are talking about illegal drug use that is detrimental to our society and your company is making a profit from it. I’m going to try to summarize your response, please let me know if I’ve got it wrong. Since I’m dealing with inference here it’s tricky.
“Adults may choose to use illegal drugs if they want to. As a merchant, I can sell them merchandise that supports their drug lifestyle and profit from it, regardless of the social harm illegal drugs and their users cause.”
What, ma’am, is incorrect about this statement or do I have it right?
You obviously feel really strongly about this issue Firebettle, and I respect that. I have never used illegal drugs in my life and have seen many a friend go down a bad road thanks to marijuana or other narcotics. I feel you. However I think you are grossly over-reacting here.
This doll is the first in a line called "Posers." This doll as a product does not say to me: "YEAH! USE MARIJUANA!" It says, marijuana is for posers (which is a word young people are very familar with and really don't want to be), and the doll looks ridiculous. I don't think this product celebrates marijuana culture, I think is comments on it.
Paizo does not sell any products that celebrate drug culture. They don't sell bongs, or other paraphenalia. Maybe this doll stuck a bad chord with you immediately and that's a fair reaction, however you might want to reconsider the product's design and name. As a Poser, it's obviously not trumpeting pot-smokers as "cool" or something to aspire to.
It's great to exercise your dollar vote by boycotting irresponsible companies, however I can't think of a more responsible one than Paizo. It's dangerous ground when we start punishing or berating companies or anyone for touching on subjects that have such a high impact on our...
Wow, Nick, that was really impressive . . . no wonder they pay you the big bucks . . .
Let me chime in here and say The Last Rogue has no problems with drugs, in a time not to far off I was definitely a pothead for better or worse. Yes, there a lot of things wrong with smoking pot and doing some of the other 'stuff' I did, and yes in some cases I completely see where it truly, and in serious ways, adversely affected people I know -- at the same time I find it hard to villianize marijuana use and users when we live in a nation that at times glorifies alcohol. I digress.
The matter at hand -- I cannot fathom a truly compelling and logical argument to take down this plush. It is a novelty toy with no inherent harm. If I gave it to my friends 1 year old, he would not start wanting to get high, he would think it a doll, which it is. As for kids searching this website, chances are they are intelligent enough (or versed enough) to know that marijuana is out there, and probably know quite a bit about it via school/friends/etc . . I highly doubt a plush is going to sway them one way or the other.
This is just my opinion, obviously, and I do not want to feed the fire. Just label me a John Stuart Mills guy -- everyone needs to be allowed to be different. In my book, a pothead is no worse than a straight laced doctor, for example . . . or a ditch digger. :)
PS -- Bloody root, the whole ditch digger thing is a common statement that I have heard many times, I truly doubt any insult was meant. I believe the poster was just using that maxim to show that world has/needs different types to truly be what it is.
.
3. Marijuana isn’t the problem, it is harder drugs like crack that are the problem- Marijuana’s victims range from suicide (it’s a depressant, after all)
I absolutely think children need to think for themselves. That's why I think the message about the unacceptability of drugs needs to be loud and clear. Because they do choose, and they need to know from us that we as a society do not approve of drugs instead of selling them dolls and games.
couple of quick corrections and one reaction:
1st - The 'gateway theory' has never been quantitatively proven in an unbiased survey. The only published studies come from groups whose funding is tied to the war on drugs - a clear conflict of interest.
2nd - Marijuana is a mild hallucinogen, not a depressant.
Finally, I strongly agree with the position that people need to make up their own minds on a topic. Especially youth. Your method of stating your point clearly demonstrates your passion about the topic and your caring for today's youth. Unfortunately, your tone and delivery leave it clear that the only acceptable 'decision' a person could make is to agree with you. That's not actually a decision at all.
Even though I agree with much of what you say, these products are satirical in the same vein as the Big Johnson T-shirts of the early 1990's. Those shirts elicited a similar over-reaction. Many attempts to limit free speech or censor humor come from misguided altruism. Personally, I find that irksome.
I truly doubt any insult was meant.
It wasn't, but I'm clearly in the wrong regardless, and I empathize with his right to be offended.
Anyhow, I think Lisa (and Paizo) has dealt with in a very responsible manner. She / They didn't have to do....anything. Instead, they broached the subject, put it in a public place to get consumer feedback, and when they realized the item was...unpopular...they moved (or will move) the product to a section where only more mature consumers able to make an informed purchase could view it. I find this eminently acceptable.
----
I apologize in advance for this, but I'm going to say it anyhow:
Firebeetle: The flippant part would explode if I didn't type this: "Woah, someone needs a toke!" (SEE: This is how I get myself into trouble).
----
I'm not a fan of pot, or illegal drugs of any kind, and in general, even having an excess of prescription drugs pushed on me. I understand that you have lost people close to you to drug abuse (or even let's say, use), and personally (and I know I will take flak for this) I tend to look down (sorry guys / gals) on those who do use drugs (not that I don't have my own glaring flaws). That being said, it's their prerogative. If Paizo started selling "Helmet laws suck" dolls with broken open heads, I'd consider those to be in bad taste (even if helmet laws "do" suck, and trust me, I've scraped a few brains out of helmets, but I don't need anyone to legislate common sense to me), and expect them to be moved out of general purview. Banned? Not so much. Someone might like one for their sidecar, and I'm ok with that. I don't expect a product to be banned simply because I don't agree with that lifestyle. If someone wants to buy a plush squirrel humping a turtle, more power to them, just make it a little hard to get to for the rest of us so we don't stumble on it.
There is a difference between accepting a thing (even an illegal one) and embracing a thing. One doesn't necessarily lead to the other. I accept that this product exists and someone might really want one. I don't care for it, and would go out of my way to keep one from falling into the hands of my child, but I'm not about to say that no one should own one, or that simply by offering it from a third party that Paizo is displaying tacit approval of illegal activity.
To waffle a bit, it does seem an odd product for a gaming company to carry, like if I saw a "love ewe" (don't google that) on here.
Ahh... My previous life as a High School English teacher rears again.
"Good and evil we know in the field of this world grow up together almost inseparably; and the knowledge of good is so involved and interwoven with the knowledge of evil, and in so many cunning resemblances hardly to be discerned, that those confused seeds which were imposed upon Psyche as an incessant labour to cull out and sort asunder, were not more intermixed. It was from out the rind of one apple tasted that the knowledge of good and evil, as two twins cleaving together, leaped forth into the world. And perhaps this is that doom which Adam fell into of knowing good and evil, that is to say of knowing good by evil."
Please, Censors of the World, read John Milton's Areopagitica, or at least read the Spark/Cliff Notes...
You obviously feel really strongly about this issue Firebettle, and I respect that. I have never used illegal drugs in my life and have seen many a friend go down a bad road thanks to marijuana or other narcotics. I feel you. However I think you are grossly over-reacting here.
This doll is the first in a line called "Posers." This doll as a product does not say to me: "YEAH! USE MARIJUANA!" It says, marijuana is for posers (which is a word young people are very familar with and really don't want to be), and the doll looks ridiculous. I don't think this product celebrates marijuana culture, I think is comments on it.
Paizo does not sell any products that celebrate drug culture. They don't sell bongs, or other paraphenalia. Maybe this doll stuck a bad chord with you immediately and that's a fair reaction, however you might want to reconsider the product's design and name. As a Poser, it's obviously not trumpeting pot-smokers as "cool" or something to aspire to.
It's great to exercise your dollar vote by boycotting irresponsible companies, however I can't think of a more responsible one than Paizo. It's dangerous ground when we start punishing or berating companies or anyone for touching on subjects that have such a high impact on our...
This doll is not satirising drug use, it is saying (without much subtlety) that using drugs is kinda funny and cool. And I don't think you need to be selling bongs to do that.
I also don't really buy the "let the kids choose" argument. Obviously we have to make our minds up about stuff, all stuff. People obviously need to make their minds up if they want to engage in antisocial and illegal activities. But that doesn't mean that making said activities look harmless and funny when in fact they can lead to serious personal and societal consequences is a good, even moral, thing to do. Individuals have a broader responsibility to society than to just shrug their shoulders and let people make their own decisions, irrespective of the potential impact.
And the key to making good decisions is being informed. The statistics are murky, but I think we can agree there is a drug problem in society. All the ancedotal "I took the stuff and was OK" is somewhat worthless - the people who took it and aren't are probably not posting with any lucidity anywhere, let alone on this website.
The doll adds nothing much to the debate, but does give out a dubious message that such illegal activity is cool (i.e. that you should do it too). I doubt that anyone will suddenly get the urge to smoke a reefer from looking at or even buying the thing. But it does suggest a permissive attitude towards it, on the part of the company that makes it and one of the ones that sells it. Coupled with other similar messages, it has a "drip, drip" effect that drugs are OK, even normal - especially when the "freedom to choose" is so eloquently supported above, and the words of someone who actually has seen the negative aspects of even soft drug use are "pooh pooh-ed" as being crypto-fascist and anti-choice.
The problem with drugs is that there isn't the information out there to make the choice. And as it is illegal, and the proceeds are used to fund all sorts of unsavoury things like terrorism, maybe a blanket libertarian approach is not the best. After all, that is why we have laws.
Does this drug count? And what about all the Internal Medicine specialists, 'Internists' who belong to this world-renowned organization, would they agree with you? In fact, you can search their archives, as well as the archives for this respectable little club, who argue that tobacco is the gateway drug to alcohol, which statistically causes more accidental deaths, incidents of domestic and child abuse, murder, rape, and theft in a single year than marijuana in a decade; and that marijuana is statistically less dangerous a drug, pharmacologically, than cough syrup...but don't take my word for it; research the sites on your own.
Every drug destroys, but the consequences and time frame vary.
I think Tylenol's support is more likely due to cannoboid research. They want it legalized so they can grow scads of pot and then patent the new drugs that result from it. I can't say I'm entirely opposed, though, because some incredible crap is coming out of that line lately. I should probably also add here that I tend to see a lot more people OD on tylenol than any other drug. Liver damage = bad.
Annnnnnnnddddddd....back to the Rastafarian Doll.
We aren’t talking about a matter of taste here, we are talking about illegal drug use that is detrimental to our society and your company is making a profit from it.
Um, no. This plush doll is not a drug. Whether it glorifies drug use or not is up to debate (I, like Logue, say "not necessarily"). But the doll itself is not actually drugs, nor do the profits from the sale of this product (or the card game) profit drug dealers.
Unless, of course, you are privy to some information about the company that manufactures these products that the rest of us are not.
I am not claiming that the Baked Baked doll or Stoner Fluxx causes anyone to use drugs. They do, however, support the drug lifestyle. They let the drug user celebrate and revel in their addiction. It communicate to other users and gives them reason to discourse and socialize. In short, when a user buys your doll or game, they are buying acceptance.
That's a nice story, but it makes a bunch of vague claims about broad effects, without any supporting data of any kind. In short, it's pure fiction. All spin, to make your argument look better. If you want to sling some facts, particularly any facts that show a direct correlation between the sale of a perfectly legal product (plush doll, card game) and the uptick of drug crime, you go right ahead. Until then? Spin.
If you want to sling some facts, particularly any facts that show a direct correlation between the sale of a perfectly legal product (plush doll, card game) and the uptick of drug crime, you go right ahead. Until then? Spin.
I think the point is that it is part of a generalised societal drift that says illegal drugs are fine, rather than by itself it will cause an outbreak of reefer madness.