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This is a question aimed at those who do not like the 3.5-type psionics system. I'm not looking to start a flame war or anything, I just genuinely want to get an idea of the reasons why some DMs and players do not like that system from those people. So please, no psionics-lovers posting their conjectures here or trying to correct 'misunderstandings' about their beloved systems (I'm a lover of the psionics system myself).
I just want to know what the obstacles are to a Pathfinder psionics project from those that wouldn't want to see an upgrade of the OGL psionics system.
From what I've gathered it mainly has to do with 3 things.
1. Psionics take up too much space to stat block NPCs.
2. Psionics do not play well with current magic system.
3. Psions are capable of "nova-ing" to an extreme amount even far beyond what a basic spellcaster can do.
There are probably more but I think this summarizes things up nicely.
A lot of the complaints i got about using Psionics was that because it was a seperate system, there was little support. spell resist was not psi resist and vice versa.
So if played as written, psionica could be effectively unstoppable. This meant that you had to come up with compremises as to how psionics and magic interacted. Was a dorje basicly a wand and useable with use magic device? Could spell resistance be used against psionics?
In the end we simply ruled that there was no effective difference, so anything that applied to magic applied to psionics and vice versa.
The core of the problem is attemptign to integrate a completly new system into the existing system after the fact.
From what I've gathered it mainly has to do with 3 things.
1. Psionics take up too much space to stat block NPCs.
2. Psionics do not play well with current magic system.
3. Psions are capable of "nova-ing" to an extreme amount even far beyond what a basic spellcaster can do.
There are probably more but I think this summarizes things up nicely.
+1, this is the big three
I think if they brought it more inline with the current magic system{Which fixes 1 and 2} stopped the noving you would have less dislike of psionics as a whole
You'll still have the deal with the "No sci-fi in my fantasy} bunch even if a wizard covers mind powers anyhow. Go fig
This is a question aimed at those who do not like the 3.5-type psionics system. I'm not looking to start a flame war or anything, I just genuinely want to get an idea of the reasons why some DMs and players do not like that system from those people. So please, no psionics-lovers posting their conjectures here or trying to correct 'misunderstandings' about their beloved systems (I'm a lover of the psionics system myself).
I just want to know what the obstacles are to a Pathfinder psionics project from those that wouldn't want to see an upgrade of the OGL psionics system.
There are multiple hundred plus post on this issue. The same points are hashed out every time.
First I am going to send you here Myth of psionics being over powered
Here is one of the larger ones.
Some things are repeated a lot since the thread is over 800 post, but it is one of the better ones. It also spawns a few side threads.
This is when dreamscarred press decided to take on the quest of doing psionics for pathfinder
These are the biggest ones to look at. Have fun.
They just never seem to fit... generally because they've always been added-on in some book that comes out after the core rules. This is only untrue in AD&D 1e where psionics were hidden in an appendix way back at the end of PHB along with a bunch of other stuff that didn't fit in anywhere else (1e bards, anyone?).
Your campaign is humming along nicely and along comes 'the new book' and the inevitable, "Can I play this? All it requires is for you to learn this WHOLE BOOK that is dedicated to the character I want to play. You'll get to expend all sorts of effort learning how the psionic classes work, how the special psionic equipment works, how the various special psionic monsters work... such fun!"
I suppose I'm also a bit skewed in my perception since the people I've seen most attracted to psionics are the ones who'd most like to be able to use vast amounts of min-maxing munchkinitude to make their characters and the opportunity to learn a rules system they know the GM will pay passing attention to is a wide opened door to warehouse full of abusive potential. I know not every fan of psionics is this typee of player... but I gotta learn from experience.
And, before someone says, "Find a new group.", I'm playing with the same group for 25 years... we've stood up at each others' weddings (for the grooms AND the brides... with various individuals serving as best man, ushers, maids or matrons of honor, bridesmaids, etc.), celebrated the births of children, mourned the deaths of parents... and, in one case, the death of one of the group... and another of them GAVE ME A KIDNEY 3 months ago. That's just not an option.
The biggest gripe I had was that psionics didn't fit the flavor of my setting. If it did, I would have allowed it as a DM. That was during 3.5 when the books were released. Now that my setting can possibly support it, I would probably take a second look at it if one of my players was interested. I would definitely allow it if Paizo releases an updated system that is easier to integrate.
They just never seem to fit.......
I suppose I'm also a bit skewed in my perception since the people I've seen most attracted to psionics are the ones who'd most like to be able to use vast amounts of min-maxing munchkinitude to make their characters and the opportunity to learn a rules system they know the GM will pay passing attention to is a wide opened door to warehouse full of abusive potential. I know not every fan of psionics is this typee of player... but I gotta learn from experience.
And, before someone says, "Find a new group.", I'm playing with the same group for 25 years... we've stood up at each others' weddings (for the grooms AND the brides... with various individuals serving as best man, ushers, maids or matrons of honor, bridesmaids, etc.), celebrated the births of children, mourned the deaths of parents... and, in one case, the death of one of the group... and another of them GAVE ME A KIDNEY 3 months ago. That's just not an option.
That is not a psionics issue. That is a group issue. You could replace psionics with baking cakes and that issue would be there, or any other new splat book, subsystem and so on.
Generally speaking, the psionics were always so obscure as compared to everything else as to make them either completely worthless or ridiculously overpowered.
E.G. a group of psionicists could run around with dispel magic disposables, hobbling parties that had no choice but to rely on magic items and casters, and yet the party would typically have really no other defense.
On the flip side, you would have the "too stupid to be affected by psionics" as to make being a psionicist less than fun.
If psionics were on the same level as divine magic as compared to arcane, and arcane as compared to divine, then I would consider playing psionics.
The other annoying aspect is that psionicists would greatly benefit from magic equipment, but non-psionicists would find psionics based equipment beyond worthless to them.
This is a question aimed at those who do not like the 3.5-type psionics system. I'm not looking to start a flame war or anything, I just genuinely want to get an idea of the reasons why some DMs and players do not like that system from those people. So please, no psionics-lovers posting their conjectures here or trying to correct 'misunderstandings' about their beloved systems (I'm a lover of the psionics system myself).
I just want to know what the obstacles are to a Pathfinder psionics project from those that wouldn't want to see an upgrade of the OGL psionics system.
But if one doesn't correct a misunderstanding people might think their misunderstanding is truth.
Like that Spell resistance thing: it is by default equal to psionics resist (SR = PR). Changing the rules to not affect each makes a huge difference to perception of psionics.
So I'd say for Reason:
1. People Misunderstanding rules
2. Bad players purposely misunderstanding rules (Munchkins) and keeping real rules a secret (DM too trusting maybe?)
3. Bad memories from previous editions
Generally speaking, the psionics were always so obscure as compared to everything else as to make them either completely worthless or ridiculously overpowered.
E.G. a group of psionicists could run around with dispel magic disposables, hobbling parties that had no choice but to rely on magic items and casters, and yet the party would typically have really no other defense.
On the flip side, you would have the "too stupid to be affected by psionics" as to make being a psionicist less than fun.
If psionics were on the same level as divine magic as compared to arcane, and arcane as compared to divine, then I would consider playing psionics.
The other annoying aspect is that psionicists would greatly benefit from magic equipment, but non-psionicists would find psionics based equipment beyond worthless to them.
Say that again in english or somebody can translate for him.
To me psionics were supposed to be new character classes originally. That was the goal. But instead of that what they did was to implement a whole new subsystem of combat, stat tracking, and skill systems. Not to mention introducing what is effectively a MP bar into D&D.
The implementation was poorly integrated and it always felt like they tacked it on. It felt like they took a RV trailer and welded it to the side of a nice 2 floor and a basement suburban home. Sure it added new things, but it tarnished the package as a whole.
If pathfinder is to do psionics they are going to HAVE to do it in a different way that the whole power points system due to a number of reasons including closed content and IP laws and such. I hope for a time when they do this that they can integrate in a way so it looks like a nice porch or a pool in the back yard instead of a parking a pop tent on the lawn.
2. Psionics do not play well with current magic system.
Can you clarify this point, please - I'm not challenging it, I just want to know what you mean.
Edit - and I'll back Seeker's comment: I have specifically asked for those that do not like psionics to post here their reasons, and for those that like psionics not to post. I don't want 2nd and 3rd hand supposition, I want it from the horse's mouth. On all the psionics threads we hear a lot about what people think other people might have said they didn't like about psioncs ... nah, I want to know what the current Pathfinder fans actually think of them.
Because if we do not know what the issues are, we can't fix them, and if I have to plough through 300 posts of psionics-lovers telling the not-lovers how they are wrong, I'll never find out what those with a problem actually think!
Say that again in english or somebody can translate for him.Generally speaking, the psionics were always so obscure as compared to everything else as to make them either completely worthless or ridiculously overpowered.
E.G. a group of psionicists could run around with dispel magic disposables, hobbling parties that had no choice but to rely on magic items and casters, and yet the party would typically have really no other defense.
On the flip side, you would have the "too stupid to be affected by psionics" as to make being a psionicist less than fun.
If psionics were on the same level as divine magic as compared to arcane, and arcane as compared to divine, then I would consider playing psionics.
The other annoying aspect is that psionicists would greatly benefit from magic equipment, but non-psionicists would find psionics based equipment beyond worthless to them.
I asked you to explain you didnt. Now I will break it down with my understanding of your words.
They are not worthless or overpowered. I notice you did not give examples. I will have to assume you have not idea what you are talking about.The 2nd paragraph is a bunch of incoherent words that make no sense.
The 3rd paragraph does not state if you think psionics are stronger or weaker, just on a different level. Another non-argument since it is not saying anything.
4th. Not all magical equipment is useful to a psionic class, and not all psionic items are useless to magic classes. There you go.
2. Psionics do not play well with current magic system.Can you clarify this point, please - I'm not challenging it, I just want to know what you mean.
I knew this would turn into the 2nd thread I linked. What he speaks of consist of a variety of issues. One is the nova. That argument alone probably took up 3 pages or more in the other thread. In the end we all decided to agree to disagree.
Some DM's have things take place no matter what the PC's do. Other DM's revolve around the PC's. If the psion novas then the party has to rest which messes with immersion(did I spell that right). I think a player that blows spells or power points and ends up useless in combat deserves what they get, but others feel like it is the systems fault. It is a lot more detailed somewhere in the 2nd thread. I would go there and search for nova, and probably my name. That should get you within a page or two of that portion of it.A big issue was that many of us feel that the mechanics and the psionics idea are a package deal, and they are not to be divorced. Others are willing to take the idea and put the mechanics aside if we can call ourselves psionics. Why not just play a sorcerer and call it a psion was the counter to that, and then there was another counter ad infinitum.....
That is not a psionics issue. That is a group issue. You could replace psionics with baking cakes and that issue would be there, or any other new splat book, subsystem and so on.
Yeah... but I was asked why I don't like psionics and that's my answer. I wasn't asked why psionics are bad (I wouldn't say they're bad... they might work great... for YOU). I'm not saying my reasons are why YOU shouldn't like them.
Incidentally, as I would certainly be susceptible to a bribe that involved a freshly baked cake, cake baking COULD become a min-maxing issue, too (though the maxing would likely involve my waistline). That's an issue I'm willing to wait on before making any rules against it... if any of my players feel like baking me a pineapple upside down cake, better do it quick before I have to send cake baking the way of psionics in my campaigns.
I'll try to keep this brief and simple, and I will state that I've run into several powergamers/munchkins in my group that may have partially spoiled psionics for me, however, that said...
I like the concept of new magic systems, but psionics didn't do it for me. The spell point system was neat, but it felt far too unfair even to sorcerers, who have a certain number of slots that they can't turn into higher level spells. I've seen PCs nova too easily, all of the counters are typically in the same book, which makes it harder for me to look at a list and say "Hey, this looks like a good challenge to the party..." Moving on from that, there was also the point where it brought in entirely new skills. This is something I oppose on the sheer principle, as it can invalidate other classes. (ie. Wizard who got all magical knowledge he could find...and suddenly knows squat about the new magic system.)
The way powers scaled, both DCs and damage-wise, bothered me somewhat, but it was too many small issues and irritations that finally made it so I completely banned it from my games. Oh, and the new-age crystal-y feel, along with unique entire item trees was just the death knell to it. I'm sure Paizo can fix it if they try...I'm just going to be skeptical until I see such.
My main issue with psionics is that I don't particularly feel the need for a third type of magic in the game. I'm also not all that happy with the flavour. Generally I prefer the feel of psionics for modern or futuristic style games.
+1.
I don't necessarily have a beef with any psionic rules system - I just don't like the flavor. The whole idea of tele-whatever and mind powers and sentient power crystals...it's just not my genre. Beyond even "get your sci-fi out of my fantasy", I don't really care for the flavor even in a modern or sci-fi game.
Besides that, the 3.0 psionics (in my experiences) tended to attract "bad" players - Players who either wanted to take advantage of rules loopholes in order to powergame, or who wanted to be a psychic in order to be different and special and attention hogging. I know, this is a player problem, not a rule problem, but like I said, psionics seemed to attract these guys in my groups.
Even then, I still bought the Psionics Handbook in case any of my players wanted to play a psionic character. However, the whole idea of a big rules subset that had to be learned, grafted on, and integrated, made it a lot of work for me as a DM to allow that option.
So, even if a new, "better", Pathfinderized psionics system comes out, I will very likely not buy it, simply because I'm not the target audience - my issues with psionics probably aren't fixable, and I'm okay with that. My input probably isn't extremely valuable for whatever it is you're working on, but that's my $0.02, anyway.
That is not a psionics issue. That is a group issue. You could replace psionics with baking cakes and that issue would be there, or any other new splat book, subsystem and so on.Yeah... but I was asked why I don't like psionics and that's my answer. I wasn't asked why psionics are bad (I wouldn't say they're bad... they might work great... for YOU). I'm not saying my reasons are why YOU shouldn't like them.
Incidentally, as I would certainly be susceptible to a bribe that involved a freshly baked cake, cake baking COULD become a min-maxing issue, too (though the maxing would likely involve my waistline). That's an issue I'm willing to wait on before making any rules against it... if any of my players feel like baking me a pineapple upside down cake, better do it quick before I have to send cake baking the way of psionics in my campaigns.
If you allow psionics your players owe me a slice of cake.
My main beef with psionics is that not only do they not fit the genre very well, but the notion of a "Mana Point" system kind of goes against the already established "Spell Slots" system for "superpowers" (essentially what spells and such boil down to on a very basic level) in this game. One or the other should be used imo but not both.
In 3.5 psionics seemed more of an afterthought... like a new system that was just thrown like spatter of brown paint onto the canvas of the game rather than carefully painted in so it fit seemlessly. You ended up with psionic characters running around in groups being these mysterious beings that no one knew anything about (DM: "Don't have Knowledge: Psionics? You know nothing about the new PC or these new monsters I'm going to throw at you only because the psionic PC is in the group").
My main beef with psionics is that not only do they not fit the genre very well, but the notion of a "Mana Point" system kind of goes against the already established "Spell Slots" system for "superpowers" (essentially what spells and such boil down to on a very basic level) in this game. One or the other should be used imo but not both.
In 3.5 psionics seemed more of an afterthought... like a new system that was just thrown like spatter of brown paint onto the canvas of the game rather than carefully painted in so it fit seemlessly. You ended up with psionic characters running around in groups being these mysterious beings that no one knew anything about (DM: "Don't have Knowledge: Psionics? You know nothing about the new PC or these new monsters I'm going to throw at you only because the psionic PC is in the group").
If I have psionic monsters in a game I would let the players know to take that knowledge or I would allow knowledge(arcane) to work with a penalty. I don't think it is fair to bring nonstandard monsters into a game like that. Now if the "special monsters" are only there for a very limited number of encounters I would not worry about the knowledge psionics issue.
ok. I failed my will save.
My 'problem' with psionics is I don't want to deal with learning yet another complex subsystem.
It's bad enough we have to deal with the fact that there are 3+ systems of casting now (prepared from a full spell list, prepared from a list of spells known, spontaneous from a list of spells known). Teaching players a complete new system would be a PITA. Learning a complete new system because one player wants to play a class is likewise a PITA.
So either change everything to power points (unlikely) or change psionics over to vancian (also unlikely).
My 'problem' with psionics is I don't want to deal with learning yet another complex subsystem.
It's bad enough we have to deal with the fact that there are 3+ systems of casting now (prepared from a full spell list, prepared from a list of spells known, spontaneous from a list of spells known). Teaching players a complete new system would be a PITA. Learning a complete new system because one player wants to play a class is likewise a PITA.
So either change everything to power points (unlikely) or change psionics over to vancian (also unlikely).
Psionics is not hard to learn. You just have to do more math, and learn not to blow all your points in one round, but most new people playing casters have the same issue with spells.
Wraithstrike you are yet again off topic. Would you please stop informing everyone with an opinion they are wrong. Your doing the very thing the OP asked you guys not to do.
I can't help it.
It is like watching someone punch my son in the face. I don't have a son, but still.I also get a -10 to my will save when I see the same arguments. Yeah I could just not look, but someone might surprise me with something new.
In any event to help this thread move along:
Psionics is too sci-fi
Psionic characters can do too much damage with one power
Psionic powers are overpowered compared to the magic versions
Psychic Warrior feats are too powerful
Psychic Warrior is stronger than a fighter
Energy Missile is overpowered
Energy powers are overpowered
The Erudite is broken
Metapsionic feats are too powerful, they cost less than metamagic feats
The Metamind is overpowered with Font of Power
Metamorphosis, Greater is overpowered
Schism is overpowered
Vigor is overpowered
Psychic Reformation is overpowered
The Cerebremancer is overpowered
1st level powers doing 20d6 damage are overpowered
Psionics are more powerful than wizards due to their damage powers
The King of Smack build is overpowered
Time Regression is too strong
Astral Construct is too good for a 1st level power
Empathic Transfer, Hostile is overpowered
Elans are overpowered
The Overchannel feat is too strong
The Slayer is overpowered
Split Psionic Ray is too powerful
Synchronicity is overpowered
Anticipatory Strike is overpowered
The problem is the power point system is far more flexible then the current system for other casters. So if the psionic gets a far more flexible magic system he will be starting with a balance issue. Sure you can slam him back to balance by making his powers ultra weak, but that's not much fun. My problem with psionics is really how it's magic system isn't vancian and it should be if it is going to work in 3.X.
The psion can activate powers even when gagged, bound, and tied up.
There are more reasons, I am sure.
See that is what the OP asked you not to do. Your derailing this thread and that is why folks do not post.
Every single time this come up a few of you guys always derail it trying to prove how wrong someone is. It does not matter if they are wrong or not you guys just have to show how wrong they are
That is not what this thread is about. It does not matter if they are wrong or not. All that matters is what they think, not why they think it.
Feel free to start your own topic, but stop derailing this one and harassing posters that do not share your views.
See that is what the OP asked you not to do. Your derailing this thread and that is why folks do not post.
Every single time this come up a few of you guys always derail it trying to prove how wrong someone is. It does not matter if they are wrong or not you guys just have to show how wrong they are
That is not what this thread is about. It does not matter if they are wrong or not. All that matters is what they think, not why they think it.
Feel free to start your own topic, but stop derailing this one and harassing posters that do not share your views.
I just posted a listed of anti-psiconic issues. Don't tell me you did not see the list.
Psionics is not hard to learn. You just have to do more math, and learn not to blow all your points in one round, but most new people playing casters have the same issue with spells.
First, you should read the OP...
So please, no psionics-lovers posting their conjectures here or trying to correct 'misunderstandings' about their beloved systems (I'm a lover of the psionics system myself).
Second. I don't care, one magic system per game is fine with me.
Psionics is not hard to learn. You just have to do more math, and learn not to blow all your points in one round, but most new people playing casters have the same issue with spells.First, you should read the OP...
I already did. Now you can read my list of items I put up that people have complained about. See, I did gave the OP what he wanted.
Psionics is not hard to learn. You just have to do more math, and learn not to blow all your points in one round, but most new people playing casters have the same issue with spells.First, you should read the OP...
So please, no psionics-lovers posting their conjectures here or trying to correct 'misunderstandings' about their beloved systems (I'm a lover of the psionics system myself).Second. I don't care, one magic system per game is fine with me.
Oh man, so now you want us to choose between the magic systems that the Bard/Inquisitor uses, vs. the Wizard vs. Sorcerer vs. Ranger/Paladin vs. Witch vs. Cleric. They are all different. You already have at least half a dozen competing magic systems. Learning one takes as much time, effort, and brains as learning psionics.
I'm with you Wraith. I understand and appreciate what Dabbler is trying to do, but it is utterly pointless. Why should they be able to civilly trash what we love while maintaining blissful ignorance, but we can't have a nice discussion elsewhere without someone crashing it.
Wraithstrike, while I appreciate your opinions, here is NOT THE PLACE. You are doing exactly what I asked you not to do: a psionics-lover listing all the reasons that you think that those that don't like psionics do not like psionics, and in effect you are 'threadcrapping.' Meatrace, you aren't helping. If this exercise is pointless as you claim I'll find out faster without you two filling the thread up with your own ideas that I specifically asked you NOT TO DO.
Do I have to call the mods in to delete all your posts before you get the hint?
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1 - The 3.5 power point system slowed the game down. This is not a fault of psionics itself but rather the problems with having a separate system. Yes, the rules are not rocket surgery but as mentioned by a few posters, the power point system is more flexible.
This flexibility requires more detailed book keeping which results in slowing the game down.
2 - Personally I don't feel a psionic 'system' is needed to make the game *better*. However I understand that many people don't like the existing magic system and/or want more variety. Otherwise, any existing character class can be played as a psionic character. If you walk, talk and act like a psychic/psionic character, who's going to know otherwise? :)
Examples:
That fire ball? The direct result of imposing your formidable will upon reality.
The eye of newt, strange hand gestures and alien words? Helps focus your mental powers.
Spell slots? A mechanic representing your limited ability to store mental constructs, each the distillation of years of practice and meditation.
A spell? The unleashing of the mental construct into the physical world.
Extra attacks per round? Jedi mind powers, natch!
3 - The annoyance for me was many of our players tried to use psionics to create magic-like effects without running the risk of being accused of wizards/'known casters'. Granted, this is a direct result of dropping psionics into a magic-baised campaign world but still...
''I didn't blow him up! How could I? I'm not a wizard! Why was I glowing? ..because.. I'm *special!*''
Despite the odd turn this thread has taken and the fact that, while I am not in love with it, I still enjoy 3.5 psionics, I will give my issues with that psionic system.
1. It is just different enough to create a number of irritating holes. I don't really see the system as being all that different. There are spellcasters that can cast spells which go up to ninth level. They are separated into a number of schools of magic and access to a new spell is gained (for devoted spellcasters) every two levels. A lot of the words are switched around though; spells are powers, spellcasters are manifesters, schools are disciplines, spell resistance is power resistance, and so on. To me, all the wording changes are unnecessary complications that confuse things more than make psionics special. I think the system wouldn't lose much if it used words like "enchantment" instead of "telepathy." Alternatively, it could just go and be different from the spell system entirely and avoid having schools/disciplines of magic/psionics and levels of spells/powers.
2. "Nova-ing." The idea of throwing one's highest level powers (not just low level powers augmented to full) over and over until all/most power is expended at a more exceptional rate than other casters. While I can apply this worry to PCs abusing it, I am more worried about it being used by NPCs who really pushed into a corner and will not survive past the battle. I've haven't had to deal with this really, just because people haven't played psionic characters in my games nor do I get to play often enough to give a significant amount of experience with psionic characters. If forced to apply my own 'novaing' character's experience to this I would have to say that, while it is entertaining to say "wild surge and augment for full," an eighth level wilder launching energy missile round after round (for lack of non-utility powers in the higher level slots) is not incredibly effective.
3. "Takes up a lot of space in books if one is assuming only Core Rulebooks," barely gets on here just because I perceive that as impacting how they are used in adventures. This won't actually impact me having psionic PCs or inserting my own psionic NPCs into adventures, so it falls as a minor issue I have. It won't affect me as I get DSP's version, but it does mean I am more lenient for Paizo to move away from the system.
Wraithstrike, while I appreciate your opinions, here is NOT THE PLACE. You are doing exactly what I asked you not to do: a psionics-lover listing all the reasons that you think that those that don't like psionics do not like psionics, and in effect you are 'threadcrapping.' Meatrace, you aren't helping. If this exercise is pointless as you claim I'll find out faster without you two filling the thread up with your own ideas that I specifically asked you NOT TO DO.
Do I have to call the mods in to delete all your posts before you get the hint?
I will make it easy psionic complaints made by people who don't like psionics posted by me
I stopped countering threads over 4.5 hours ago.
Edit:Most of the Rage Rant removed.
Kevin Mack
(Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber)
This is a question aimed at those who do not like the 3.5-type psionics system. I'm not looking to start a flame war or anything, I just genuinely want to get an idea of the reasons why some DMs and players do not like that system from those people. So please, no psionics-lovers posting their conjectures here or trying to correct 'misunderstandings' about their beloved systems (I'm a lover of the psionics system myself).
I just want to know what the obstacles are to a Pathfinder psionics project from those that wouldn't want to see an upgrade of the OGL psionics system.
- Yet another rules sub-system to learn = extra burden, as I'm the DM.
- Psionic powers tend to replicate magic spells under another name instead of having a very distinctive flavor - I'm not a specialist wizard/fire-themed sorcerer, I'm a pyrokineticist! Meh.
- Stat block clutter.
- Balance issues, mostly related to loopholes and exploitable situations (eg. nova-ing, but the super-duper telepath/scrier too).
Unfortunately, I'm also quite aware that a psionic subsystem does not fit really well with the vancian spell slot system, and a "holistic system" would require a rather radical redesign (I vote for the one seen in the Thieves' World Players Guide, which is open content too).
To those that have issue with psionics fluff being too sci-fi, I feel the need to ask: do you also ban the wizard spells Detect Thoughts, Charm Person, or Telekinesis, or anything similar/associated?
Honest question. I see "It's to sci-fi" thrown around on occasion, and I'm confused why a power point system that portrays how magic works in many works of fantasy is more sci-fi then the magic system that actually came out of a sci-fi series of books, despite both casting the same spells.
Edit: Likewise, to those that feel psionics don't have their own niche, do you ban those spells? Because that sort of feels like what should be "psion territory" to me. I'm not sure niches can be had when arcane casters have this habit of devouring everything they see and forcing them to become arcane spells.
This is a question aimed at those who do not like the 3.5-type psionics system.
Your first error right there. Banning discussion on a site that is there for just that purpose: Discussing things. You can always hope, but don't expect that to work.
I'm not looking to start a flame war or anything
Have you looked at previous threads about this topic? Every psionics threat is a flamewar waiting to happen. Some people seem to have too strong opinions and/or see this as an excuse to be jerks and insult people.
Maybe that text under the "write your post" window needs to be made more noticeable. I suggest a font size 10 steps above everything else. And make the text bold. And bright red. And blinking. And have a really loud voice read it.
Or actually do something about people who keep breaking the rules. Could work, too.
I just genuinely want to get an idea of the reasons why some DMs and players do not like that system from those people. So please, no psionics-lovers posting their conjectures here or trying to correct 'misunderstandings' about their beloved systems (I'm a lover of the psionics system myself).
What about psionic lovers who don't think the system is perfect?
I just want to know what the obstacles are to a Pathfinder psionics project from those that wouldn't want to see an upgrade of the OGL psionics system.
Aren't those psi lovers? And why would the lovers not be able to give you the reasons?
Anyway, I like psionics, I like its flavour (I don't mind having many flavours in my games), but it does have some problems, and there are things I'd change.
Not much can be done about that, except maybe win them over by finding a good way to introduce psionics into Golarion so that it doesn't seem sci-fi like.
I think Vudra and their mental discipline can help change at least some people's minds. Psionics can be seen as a close relative to Ki power. The Vudrani don't seem to like messing about with icky stuff like newt's testicles and bat droppings. They just think hard about things, and they happen.
The problem with this is that unless psionics are completely integrated into the campaign (i.e. psionics are everywhere), this puts psi manifesters at a huge advantage, as they can ignore a lot of stuff other characters have to put up with.
I made the grave error of running a game like that once. One player abused it to the hilt. That was with 3.0 psionics, where there was other stuff seriously wrong (especially mind blast, which went into overdrive if used against non-psionic creatures)
Since psionics will never be an integral part of Golarion, you just can't use that option.
Psionics will still be different, but only flavour-wise, and in execution. The effects will be considered magical, with all the baggage that comes with it.
For some people, who like the Vancian system (as it is a refreshing change from the ubiquitous mana), this is a step back into the wrong direction.
Ironically, many who don't like the slots don't like psionics because they consider them a jury rig when a real fix would be needed, i.e. "Don't weld a new 'magic' system onto the game and fix the game itself."
I think that's one more of the things that cannot really be helped, since the power point mechanic is for many (me included, to be honest) a part of psi's identity. Change that and you might as well not bother. If you change psionics to use something else, it won't be psionics any more, just like D&D wouldn't be D&D any more if it got rid of Vancian magic.
However, augmentation means you will have to pay more power points. It will not only be as effective as higher-level powers, it will cost the same! This also goes for damage-dealing powers (though they usually do get the DC increase).
Now, taking into consideration that you have one big pool of points, while spellcasters have collections of slots of different levels, you can use all your power in a short time by going up to the limit of power points you can spend in a round every round. You basically sacrifice your ability to use many lower-level powers and combine them into some higher-level powers.
That can be quite powerful, but you'll go through your power stores very quickly. It would be like a spellcaster who could combine his 9 1st-level slots into 1 9th-level slot, and use slots for 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on levels like that, too.
So while the spellcaster still has many lower-level spells to use, the psi manifester will be dry.
I'm not sure how to fix that without wrecking the whole system. Maybe have more limits to augmentations and more power chains. I.e. Lesser Psionic Dominate only works on humanoids, while Greater Works on everything. Of course, that would mean that instead of using lower-level powers augmented to the hilt, you just use high-level powers all the time.
Maybe have different pools. A lesser pool, a greater pool, a grand pool. Lesser pool powers powers of up to 3rd level, greater is for 4-6, and grand for above. You can't transfer power points.
That would mean you still have power points, but the nova thing would be disarmed at least a little bit.
But on the other hand, many augmentations go beyond staying even. They allow extra options a spellcaster can only get with higher-level spells (like the dominate power I mentioned above, which only occupies one "powers known" slot but works like 4 different powers depending on how you augment), and the damage powers usually increase the DC (so that 10d6 psionic fireball lookalike will not only cost the same as a 5th-level power, it will have the same DC, too, and still only take away one of your 3rd-level power choices.)
In addition, all the elemental powers (the psionic equivalent to fireball and its cousins) are not tied to one element. You don't get fireball. You get elemental ball. And every time you manifest it, you choose one element out of 4 (acid is not in the mix, as for some reason, acid powers are separate. Probably spell/power resistance). Energy resistance is against all elements.
A lot of people consider that "cheating". It's too good, as spellcasters have to make do with what they have (or invest in feats or abilities that still can't quite match the versatility psi manifesters get for free.
I think the game needs to be consistent in this. Either allow everyone to choose, or no one. Or if you only let some people choose, make sure it is in balance. While wilders get very little powers, a psion is better off than a sorcerer, I think. And that with multipurpose powers. Even wizards can get jealous.
I think that are the main issues.
All in all, the most I think we will get out of this is a small series of modules, or maybe a super-module if Paizo wants to start doing these.
I do think we'll eventually get Psionics as a rulebook, and some tie-in Chronicles Campaign Setting book (probably either Planets or Vudra), and maybe that module I just mentioned. But I doubt it will be an AP. And I don't think there will be cameos in other modules or AP, either.