ok so here is the problem.
I have the PC's tracing threw a dungeon and a priest had used "wall of stone" to seal off a passage. the placing of the passage and now the wall spell makes it not so obvious that a passage should be there. Im trying to figure out what, if any, EL I should give it. the spell makes the wall perminant and the time frame in which it was cast, well a couple of decades seems right. so no trace magic exists. so i cant figure if an EL should be given or not.

oh, it also blocks the stairs that lead to the rest of the module so if they dont find it they lose a crap load of info on the main villain.

ok so here is the problem.

I have the PC's tracing threw a dungeon and a priest had used "wall of stone" to seal off a passage. the placing of the passage and now the wall spell makes it not so obvious that a passage should be there. Im trying to figure out what, if any, EL I should give it. the spell makes the wall perminant and the time frame in which it was cast, well a couple of decades seems right. so no trace magic exists. so i cant figure if an EL should be given or not.

oh, it also blocks the stairs that lead to the rest of the module so if they dont find it they lose a crap load of info on the main villain.

I'm not sure why this is an "EL" situation. There really isn't any danger to the PCs. At worst, it's a search or spot DC. Which I would probably set at the caster's "hide" skill. I feel that it would also fall under a secret passage so elves and possibly dwarves with stone sense might be able to notice it.

Why do you feel that the wall spell "makes it not so obvious"? It's your call, but the spell doesn't say that it's the same stone type as the surrounding terrain. It's also not necessarily worked or unworked stone. It doesn't say that what exactly it is either -- so it ends up being your call -- but not sure that it is defaulted that way.

ok so here is the problem.

I have the PC's tracing threw a dungeon and a priest had used "wall of stone" to seal off a passage. the placing of the passage and now the wall spell makes it not so obvious that a passage should be there. Im trying to figure out what, if any, EL I should give it. the spell makes the wall perminant and the time frame in which it was cast, well a couple of decades seems right. so no trace magic exists. so i cant figure if an EL should be given or not.

oh, it also blocks the stairs that lead to the rest of the module so if they dont find it they lose a crap load of info on the main villain.

Having them find a map, or at least make it possible to find an old map of the place so they will know the wall should not be there might work.

well what i was thinking....

the priest (CL 19)set the wall to hide the rest of the ruins sealing himself in the depths of the catacomes. the un-worked stone from the spell matches the worked stone almost 98.8%. the only differance is the lack of chisle marks, but the length of time and erossion would make it extreemly difficualt to notice. do to continental drift/uplift and such and the fact its from an extinced race that has been forgotten, i dont think a map should exsist. also the burried temple was stumbled apon by accident.

Vikking I think you are over thinking this. Continental drift or what not isn't very important, and erosion takes much much longer in a sealed environment like a cave than a few decades.
The question is what mechanic do you want to use. Detect magic seems out, so go with a perception check DC... 20~25ish.

If the PCs notice it great just give something vague along the lines of "You notice that the stone here doesn't match the worked pattern in the stone on the other walls, roof or floor".

If not they head back to town after clearing out the rest only to hear some old person talk about how the mine goes down much longer and how something happened and they can't mine the lower layers anymore.

ya, i kinda came to that conclusion about a minute after i posted the second time. i figure with 7 players and 4 of them are elf or half elf, noticing the differance isnt that difficult as i was thinking. thanks for the slap up side the back of the head guys....lol

... the un-worked stone from the spell matches the worked stone almost 98.8%. the only differance is the lack of chisle marks, but the length of time and erossion would make it extreemly difficualt to notice. ...

Again, why? I agree that I think you are making this far more complicated than it needs to be.

The spell description says that "This spell creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces." It also says that "Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire." Well, a block of stone can be cut "in almost any shape you desire" but it takes some skill to do so. For him to cast this spell to make it so perfect as to not have ANY indication that there was once a passage there, he must have been some kind of dwarf with massive ranks in stonecutting or engineering or something similar.

In the end, if the players need to find this passage, make it possible for the players to have a chance to find the passage. Otherwise it won't happen and it won't be fun for anyone.

yep, like i said, i figured out i was over thinking it. lack of sleep doesnt go well with creative writing......lol

i really need to stop staying awake for 24 hours writing....:)

my only two cents would be a knowlegde dungeoneering or a knowledge architecture and engineering to see something odd about it but it sounds like you've got it well under control. Keep us posted please.

ya, i just needed to sleep and clear my head. I was way overthinking it. basiclly the party is all half elves so them spotting the differance is a no brainer.

A simple way to rule it is that the Spot/Search DC to detect the difference is either the same as the save DC of the spell (17, minimum, probably closer to 20), or the same as a magical trap of the same level as the spell (DC 25+5=30, though that may be considerably too high).

vikking wrote:

... the un-worked stone from the spell matches the worked stone

For him to cast this spell to make it so perfect as to not have ANY indication that there was once a passage there, he must have been some kind of dwarf with massive ranks in stonecutting or engineering or something similar.

I know I'm late to the table and you've basically sorted it out, but this was my immediate thought, too.

+1 to Rimmer

FWIW,

Rez

thanks all. i figured i should respond, so.....

yes i worked it out, i thank all for the help. I desided to just let the party notice a slight differance in the stone work. if they deside to not investagate it, then they lose out on a bit of info that would help them, but its not the end all if they dont as i reworked the amount of info i was to give them, so now its maybe 25% important to have rather than the 75% important info i was going to give.

the lack of sleep i think was the main problem i was having. ive writen so far 125 pages or 5 parts of a 9 part epic level adventure series.

all the creatures, traps and the whole realm in the abyss i have created has taxed my brain to the point of, well lets just say i almost gave up on the idea of writing this. once i had gotten some sleep, every thing worked itself out and i finished the complete section and have now moved on to the 5th part of the series.

again, i thank you for the slap upside the head that i needed and im sure ill need a few more by the time im done.....lol

oh and for those that want to know, the series is designed for 7-8 charactors of starting level of 17. so far im up to designing the next part for charactor level 23. i figure by the time the series is done, the PC's should be about 28th to possibly 30th level.

i now see why there isnt much out there for epic level games....my brain hurts by the end of each day of writing.....lol

well, here are some thoughts; dispel gets rid of the wall regardless of how long its there; also; unless it also is mortared in place; it might fall over; also; bricks can only take some much wieght before they crumble to the brick walls around the created wall should look different and some of the bricks could get crushed. maybe some of these thoughts will help.

ok so here is the problem.

I have the PC's tracing threw a dungeon and a priest had used "wall of stone" to seal off a passage. the placing of the passage and now the wall spell makes it not so obvious that a passage should be there. Im trying to figure out what, if any, EL I should give it. the spell makes the wall perminant and the time frame in which it was cast, well a couple of decades seems right. so no trace magic exists. so i cant figure if an EL should be given or not.

oh, it also blocks the stairs that lead to the rest of the module so if they dont find it they lose a crap load of info on the main villain.

If the passage was used heavily, wear marks that lead up to the "blank" wall would still be there.

I like to award the PCs for overcoming challenges that are not combats. This challenge is pretty important, so you don't want to make it too difficult. Look at the party's ability to spot the place, add 15 to the average of their perceptions, and call it an EL 2. That's my suggestion.

if they were 1st-3rd level, that might work, but im dealing with 22nd level. so no matter what i do, it just wont be a challenge to find a wall from a wall spell....lol

if they were 1st-3rd level, that might work, but im dealing with 22nd level. so no matter what i do, it just wont be a challenge to find a wall from a wall spell....lol

I would allow several chances to detect the wall(Perhaps opposed by the walls caster level +10 or such):

Spellcraft- to notice that the wall is a magical construct.

Knowledge (Architecture and engineering)- To notice that the wall isn't part of the original structure.

Stonecunning- To notice that the wall isn't natural stone.

Perception- To notice something is "off" with the wall.

With a 22nd level party this should just be a minor inconvenience to bypass so I wouldn't award any XP for bypassing it.

well, here are some thoughts; dispel gets rid of the wall regardless of how long its there; also; unless it also is mortared in place; it might fall over; also; bricks can only take some much wieght before they crumble to the brick walls around the created wall should look different and some of the bricks could get crushed. maybe some of these thoughts will help.

vikking wrote:

ok so here is the problem.

I have the PC's tracing threw a dungeon and a priest had used "wall of stone" to seal off a passage. the placing of the passage and now the wall spell makes it not so obvious that a passage should be there. Im trying to figure out what, if any, EL I should give it. the spell makes the wall perminant and the time frame in which it was cast, well a couple of decades seems right. so no trace magic exists. so i cant figure if an EL should be given or not.

oh, it also blocks the stairs that lead to the rest of the module so if they dont find it they lose a crap load of info on the main villain.

Val I am not sure about that.

A wall of stone is permanent forever unless someone gets out the sledgehammer.

The DC would be exactly equal to that of someone dragging in a bunch of bricks and building a wall, I suppose.

Valegrim wrote:

well, here are some thoughts; dispel gets rid of the wall regardless of how long its there

Val I am not sure about that.

I thought that when a wall was created that it was permenant unless it had a actuall duration.

I thought of this as well, but didn't get to posting it yesterday.

Steve is correct. Wall of iron and wall of stone both have durations of "instantaneous", meaning that they can be counter spelled but not dispelled. Once they are in place, they are permanent, real creations. The spell type is Conjuration (Creation) rather than (Summoning) or (Calling) so they are now real and permanent objects.

The magic of the spell creates rather than sustains the wall. Once it's done there is nothing left to dispel.

I know I've seen a write-up on this before in FAQ, Sage Advice or elsewhere.

As a Rule-of-Thumb I'd go with this ... if duration is any clocked quantity then it can be dispelled; if duration is permanent then it can be suppressed (case-by-case); if duration is instantaneous it can be counter spelled but there is no active magic thereafter to dispel.

Basically, dispelling a wall of stone would be like trying to dispel a fireball. Cast it all you want, but the effects are real and you can't dispel them away.

FWIW,

Rez