Eilistraee was killed at the end of the Lady Penitent series. Her greatest temple was devastated by the Avatar of Ghaunadar that was unleashed. All of her followers were converted to dark elves (vs. their previous existence as drow). The last book of the series left a bad taste in my mouth that an ocean of Listerine couldn't get out.

Silly me...

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-

Lathiira wrote:

Eilistraee was killed at the end of the Lady Penitent series. Her greatest temple was devastated by the Avatar of Ghaunadar that was unleashed. All of her followers were converted to dark elves (vs. their previous existence as drow). The last book of the series left a bad taste in my mouth that an ocean of Listerine couldn't get out.

I read about that, and that's just silly (IMO)! What's this nonsense about drow TURNING INTO dark elves! WTF?? I thought they were one-in-the-same...

Silly me...

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-

In the days of the Crown Wars (and before), there were still multiple elven races. One of them was the Ilythiiri . These were the dark elves. They were native to the south and concentrated in two kingdoms. When we got through the 4th Crown War (IIRC), the mandate of Corellon and the High Magic of several elven races forced the Ilythiiri underground as retaliation for war crimes even more heinous than those of the sun elves of Aryvandaar (butchered that one too). In addition, the dark elves went from dusky skin to black. Old elven history. Now, there's one detail I neglected: not all drow became dark elves at the end of the Lady Penitent series. Only those drow that worshipped Eilistraee or were descended from the dark elven population of Miyeritar were transformed. The rest remain the black-skinned scheming evil that we all know and love. So all this time, the term "dark elf" has been used but is only correct based on a technicality.

*puts away sage hat*

*Puts on sage hat*

Still think the whole thing silly (now even more so)!

However, I stand corrected on the interchangeability of the term Dark Elf/Drow...

Thank you oh wise sage... ;-p

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-

Lathiira wrote:

*Puts on sage hat*

I knew there was a reason I just glossed over the history of the Crown Wars...

Still think the whole thing silly (now even more so)!

However, I stand corrected on the interchangeability of the term Dark Elf/Drow...

Thank you...

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-

Of course, all of this is a moot point, as most of us seem to agree that recent events in the Realms should suffer the fate of a sitcom "it was all a dream" episode: laughed at and then brushed aside so we can get on with the real fun.

It was all a dream? Try a recurring nightmare. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to prevent myself from looking at the new Realms novels whenever I'm browsing for books in the fantasy section of the bookstore. Kinda like a toothache you keep poking even though it hurts and you know you shouldn't.

It was all a dream? Try a recurring nightmare. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to prevent myself from looking at the new Realms novels whenever I'm browsing for books in the fantasy section of the bookstore. Kinda like a toothache you keep poking even though it hurts and you know you shouldn't.

Nah, even as just a casual Realms-lover, I am very bothered by the changes. I can't imagine what it feels like for a long-time devotee.

You know, in a way, this is how I felt when I played "Zelda: Windwaker".

Actually, it is exactly the same. Delete the first sentence of my spoiler, and it applies exactly to the Realms.

Lathiira wrote:

It was all a dream? Try a recurring nightmare. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to prevent myself from looking at the new Realms novels whenever I'm browsing for books in the fantasy section of the bookstore. Kinda like a toothache you keep poking even though it hurts and you know you shouldn't.

Or worse, you forget which ones you have, and which ones are "new", start reading it and realize that you have dragonborn running around, Halastar is dead, and you wasted 8 bucks on kindling.

Nah, even as just a casual Realms-lover, I am very bothered by the changes. I can't imagine what it feels like for a long-time devotee.

You know, in a way, this is how I felt when I played "Zelda: Windwaker".

** spoiler omitted **

Actually, it is exactly the same. Delete the first sentence of my spoiler, and it applies exactly to the Realms.

[/end rant]

I can't imagine what it feels like for a long-time devotee.

I would get uptight with the events in the novels! I always had the question of Why!? What was wrong with a simple story now and then with FR as the backdrop? But no, it seemed EVERY novel had to be EPIC!

Okay, uptight is an overstatment but still...

So yeah, sure I ignored them for the most part and I made the Realms my own over the years, but damn...

*SIGH*

Guess I really can have the Realms my way now (Hi, welcome to Burger King, can I take your order?) ;-p

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-

What I am most amazed by is that your friend is a fan of the setting for 25 years... a setting that only came into being (as D&D) in 1988.

How did he manage to get FR novels five full years before TSR bought the setting from Ed Greenwood?

Is he magic? :o

Anyhow, I am a huge FR fan... and I am hanging out here now, awaiting Golarion's release... which should tell you something.

The new setting is a trainwreck, plain and simple.

...friend is a fan of the setting

a setting that only came into being (as D&D) in 1988.

Not to nit-pick or anything ;-P

Markus Tay wrote:

...friend is a fan of the setting

Ah, to clarify, my friend of 25 years is also a fan of the setting. We may have dangling modifiers here. I know what a kick in the gut 4e felt like, but can only imagine that FR fans, like many from Candlekeep are also sick over this. I can't understand just how a company can screw up so royally? No consumer base deserves this.

I havent seriously read a FR novel since the Horde Series.So in my realms

Spell Plague: didn't happen

Death of Ellistreae...didn't happen

Death of Mystra..didn't happen

(I do like the idea of an insane Elminster though...boring old fart)

In short the realms are so large I could just reboot every campaign to start just after the death of Azoun IV

Awww screw it I'm moving to the Wilderlands permanently. Golarion will become a new continent on that campaign world. Stuff 4E and the horse it rode in on.

What I am most amazed by is that your friend is a fan of the setting for 25 years... a setting that only came into being (as D&D) in 1988.

How did he manage to get FR novels five full years before TSR bought the setting from Ed Greenwood?

Is he magic? :o

Anyhow, I am a huge FR fan... and I am hanging out here now, awaiting Golarion's release... which should tell you something.

The new setting is a trainwreck, plain and simple.

How about unwanted sexual advances?

Thanks Rhothaerill, ...and it would be of no small coincidence that my friend would also have those Dragon magazines still, from 25 years ago. Thanks for the thought.

I wonder too, what will happen to all the items built off of the realms.. from 3.5 PC generators, Candlekeep mags, video games, our collections of Forgotten Realms source books... For anyone who hasn't looked at these, many of these are some of the finest source books I've ever seen.

I was first turned on by the fantastic, Races of Faerun, written by PAIZO's own, Sean K Reynolds. The richness and coherency of this series is unparalleled in the industry. I would encourage even those who are new to dnd, to pick some of these up (I'm sure now greatly discounted) - they're amazing!

I am hard pressed to think of an example in recent literature where a beloved story series so richly woven with coherancy was abused so badly. In last night's conversation, my friend stated repeatedly how there could be no sense to it, and suggested these decisions were made without the best interests of the players in mind.

Digitalelf wrote:

Lathiira wrote:

Eilistraee was killed at the end of the Lady Penitent series. Her greatest temple was devastated by the Avatar of Ghaunadar that was unleashed. All of her followers were converted to dark elves (vs. their previous existence as drow). The last book of the series left a bad taste in my mouth that an ocean of Listerine couldn't get out.

I read about that, and that's just silly (IMO)! What's this nonsense about drow TURNING INTO dark elves! WTF?? I thought they were one-in-the-same...

Silly me...

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-

*Puts on sage hat*

In the days of the Crown Wars (and before), there were still multiple elven races. One of them was the Ilythiiri . These were the dark elves. They were native to the south and concentrated in two kingdoms. When we got through the 4th Crown War (IIRC), the mandate of Corellon and the High Magic of several elven races forced the Ilythiiri underground as retaliation for war crimes even more heinous than those of the sun elves of Aryvandaar (butchered that one too). In addition, the dark elves went from dusky skin to black. Old elven history. Now, there's one detail I neglected: not all drow became dark elves at the end of the Lady Penitent series. Only those drow that worshipped Eilistraee or were descended from the dark elven population of Miyeritar were transformed. The rest remain the black-skinned scheming evil that we all know and love. So all this time, the term "dark elf" has been used but is only correct based on a technicality.

*puts away sage hat*

There might be some precedent for the distinction in medieval Norse paganism, from which elves or álfar come. Snorri Sturluson, who wrote the Prose Edda in early 13th century Iceland (after it had become Christian) distinguished between ljósálfar (light elves) and døkkálfar (dark elves). Earlier sources make reference to svartálfar, or black elves, with no apparent connection to Snorri's døkkálfar, but with connection to the dvergar, or dwarves, which also come from Norse paganism. (Some of you will notice that not only does "dwarf" come from Old Norse "dvergar" but so does "duergar.") There is some suggestion that the dvergar were female fertility spirits, associated with Fejya, and that álfar were their male counterparts, associated with Frey. This isn't entirely clear, however, because some sources refer to dísir as female fertility spirits associated with Frejya instead. (Note that it's no coincidence that Tolkien named his one female dwarf "Dis.") In some sources the álfar appear to the the spirits of the dead, living in burial mounds (much like Tolkien's barrow wights, albeit not always viewed as evil).

The English word "drow" actually comes from Scottish, a softened version of the Scottish word "trow" (the word having experienced what linguists call consonantal shift--a shift form a hard consonant to a related softer consonant) which comes from the Old Norse word "troll." Although Gary Gygax (whose first posthumous birthday comes in 5 days) created a sharp distinction among dwarves, elves and trolls, the lines were much blurrier in Norse paganism.

MarkusTay wrote:

What I am most amazed by is that your friend is a fan of the setting for 25 years... a setting that only came into being (as D&D) in 1988.

How did he manage to get FR novels five full years before TSR bought the setting from Ed Greenwood?

Is he magic? :o

Anyhow, I am a huge FR fan... and I am hanging out here now, awaiting Golarion's release... which should tell you something.

The new setting is a trainwreck, plain and simple.

Pax has already cleared up his comment, but to be fair, his friend could have been a fan of the Realms for 25 years. Ed Greenwood had Realms-based columns published in Dragon well before it became an official campaign setting.

For those with an interest in a prior discussion/venting of feelings on the matter there was a thread here: *link* on the Paizo messageboards on the topic. Please note that although it has been archived in the 4E section of the messageboards, it dates from a time before the release of 4E when there was not a lot to do but speculate and/or vent, and the current 4E forum users discussing DDI articles & rules will probably not appreciate this thread surfacing again. Please look but think twice before posting on the thread.

Edit:
I seem to recall discussing one or two points with Teiran and/or Krauser in the latter stages of another thread on the 4E boards about the 4E Rendition of the Forgotten Realms, but cannot currently recall what the thread was called.

CourtFool wrote:

Sebastian wrote:

And my friend is a big Bella Sara fan.

There are two Bella Sara fans?

I thought the more controversial point was that I had a friend.

Sebastian wrote:

CourtFool wrote:

Sebastian wrote:

And my friend is a big Bella Sara fan.

There are two Bella Sara fans?

I thought the more controversial point was that I had a friend.

Yeah, sure, your FRIEND is a Bella Sara fan.
And you have to order all the Bella Sara Stuff for him or her, yes?
And he/she talks so much about Bella Sara that you are an expert now too, yes?
Yeah, we all have that kind of friends...

What is the publication date of the Forgotten Realms books that distinguish between dark elves and drow? Traditionally in D&D--I've been playing since 1978--people used the two names synonymously. This is the first I've heard of any distinction between drow and dark elves in D&D.

There might be some precedent for the distinction in medieval Norse paganism, from which elves or álfar come. Snorri Sturluson, who wrote...

Sebastian wrote:

CourtFool wrote:

Sebastian wrote:

And my friend is a big Bella Sara fan.

There are two Bella Sara fans?

I thought the more controversial point was that I had a friend.

Yeah, sure, your FRIEND is a Bella Sara fan.
And you have to order all the Bella Sara Stuff for him or her, yes?
And he/she talks so much about Bella Sara that you are an expert now too, yes?
Yeah, we all have that kind of friends...

Post was too long to snip the part I wanted, but this is in response to the question of where to reference the Dark Elves / Drow thing:

Evermeet by Elaine Cunningham is a history of the elves in Toril, including the descent of the Drow. The Ilithyri (sp?) were referenced as Dark Elves before they became drow, and it mentions a change in their skin to jet black with white hair when they become drow. The physical description of the Ilithyri, however, and exactly WHY they were called Dark Elves (personality vs. appearance... seemed to have aspects of both) wasn't really clear to me.

Did you not notice that following "Sebastian" came the words "Bella Sara Charter Subscriber"?

So... you admit to having a Bella Sara "friend" too? ;-)

I've been sensing wotc trying to pull in two different directions on this issue. One arrow said, "wrap up your campaigns, and apocalypse methods are a fun way to do so, check out our final books on that topic." Then, I hear things like "living forgotten realms," LFR, as something that will continue to be developed beginning with GEN CON. But, right now, isn't it more the "dying forgotten realms", DFR? [P.s. I also heard that "production issues" have compromised LFR play at DragonCon, but I heard this as a rumor.]

Another awkward pull in two directions: the wotc site, on which we can no longer access stuff without getting odd prompts to enable cookies, log in, or install ActiveX, started talking about the kingdom of Cormyr... eh, while the other arrow is announcing to the world a POL setting. Hmmn. Does it seem like they're going in very different directions at the same time?

Does anyone feel like they've disrespected the continuity of the realms in a huge way? Would it have been so difficult for them to have created a unique POL game world? Or would that have been too "difficult" for them?

Does anyone feel like they've disrespected the continuity of the realms in a huge way?

Now look at all the races and monsters that frequent these areas. Add in all the high level NPCs and what not. Now add in all the events of the novels where there is always one epic episode after another.

When you look at FR, and all the stuff that is supposed to dwell in it, and all the events that have supposedly happened in it, you're left with a nightmare if you want something even remotely logical (and I'm talking about within the "logic" of a fantasy world, not the real world).

I suppose things could just have continued down this path throwing everything including the kitchen sink into the realms and pretending it wasn't a complete mess...but seriously, why not blow the whole thing up and try to start over, this time avoiding the mistakes of the past.

I've never been a FR fan for the reasons stated above, but I might take a look at it now.

From a practical standpoint, though, if the majority of existing FR fans are pissed off, WotC won't be able to recoup those numbers from people like me who hated the Realms to begin with...so I doubt it was a marketing decision.

I have not read much of this thread but ya I think they have disrespected the continuity of the realms big time. Any Realms DM could have written a better story line. Hell eds only a phone call away if ya don't know something ask him..do not make up a whole new realms history that means all other realms history is wrong.

The Realms was there one and only shot of me ever buying a 4e product. And now I cant even buy the novels.It sad to see something like the realms gutted and reanimated as a shallow ghost of what it once was. As a mockery
of the setting I have played for 20 years now .

The realms I know died officially with 3e. Every player I have will not play or run it that thing there calling the realms. At the end of the day its a whole new setting with names used from an old setting. Say what ya want thats all there is to it.

And now I cant even buy the novels.It sad to see something like the realms gutted and reanimated as a shallow ghost of what it once was.

Not to sound stupid, but who is the Lady Penitent? I haven't been keeping up with the novels like I should and I have no idea who this character is.

Not to sound stupid, but who is the Lady Penitent? I haven't been keeping up with the novels like I should and I have no idea who this character is.

Halisstra Melarn, the Lady Pentinent, was also a priestess of the Dark Maiden during the Silence of Lolth.

Spoilery stuff here.

Uzziel the Angel wrote:

What is the publication date of the Forgotten Realms books that distinguish between dark elves and drow? Traditionally in D&D--I've been playing since 1978--people used the two names synonymously. This is the first I've heard of any distinction between drow and dark elves in D&D.

There might be some precedent for the distinction in medieval Norse paganism, from which elves or álfar come. Snorri Sturluson, who wrote...

Races of Faerun and Lost Empires of Faerun mention these facts. But the info may have come from an older source I'm not currently remembering: for some reason I keep thinking of Cormanthyr but I'd have to dig through the books to confirm that.

I'm looking a the Monster Manual and on page 103 it says

Also known as dark elves, drow are a depraved and evil subterranean offshoot.

count me in that group. i've been a fan of "the realms" (or, at least ed greenwood's articles) from their first appearances in dragon magazine, and that's been longer than 25 years.

What are their dates of publication?
I'm looking a the Monster Manual and on page 103 it says

Monster Manual wrote:

Also known as dark elves, drow are a depraved and evil subterranean offshoot.

So it sounds like only on Faerun do the terms "drow" and "dark elves" have different meanings.

So yeah, unfortunately, the differences (LOL) between Dark Elves and Drow, is an FR thing...

And as far as I know, the two terms were interchangeable in the Realms BEFORE all those blasted dark elf novels came out...

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-

...When you look at FR, and all the stuff that is supposed to dwell in it, and all the events that have supposedly happened in it, you're left with a nightmare if you want something even remotely logical (and I'm talking about within the "logic" of a fantasy world, not the real world)...

Now, I enjoyed the heck out of The Dark Elf Trilogy, but that's like saying I like chocolate- it goes without saying!! I really liked some of the 2nd edition source material for FR, too ("Faiths and Avatars", for instance, IIRC).

I loved Al Qadim and the fact that it could "fit" into FR; thought Mazitca was kinda neat as well.

I hated the Avatar series, or at least the first book...I COULD NOT finish it to save my life. Elminster? meh.

I've got 5 of the 2nd edition Volo's Guides. I love reading them; they are a lot of fun. However, they are a perfect example of why the Realms don't make sense to me*. Flip to any random page, find an NPC, and just look at the loot s/he has available (specifically magic items). "Volo's Guide to Waterdeep" is especially guilty of this- it's just incredible!

* that and I hated the maps in the 2nd edition boxed set: never could tell where Cormyr "began" and where it "ended"- the lack of visible political boundaries played a number on my head.

Uzziel the Angel wrote:

What are their dates of publication?
I'm looking a the Monster Manual and on page 103 it says

Monster Manual wrote:

Also known as dark elves, drow are a depraved and evil subterranean offshoot.

So it sounds like only on Faerun do the terms "drow" and "dark elves" have different meanings.

Races and Lost Empires are post 3.5 MM (and are 3.5 as well)...

So yeah, unfortunately, the differences (LOL) between Dark Elves and Drow, is an FR thing...

And as far as I know, the two terms were interchangeable in the Realms BEFORE all those blasted dark elf novels came out...

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-

So it sounds like only on Faerun do the terms "drow" and "dark elves" have different meanings.

/rereading the _Annotated Chronicles_ at the moment, or I wouldn't have remembered that

[QUOTE]
count me in that group. i've been a fan of "the realms" (or, at least ed greenwood's articles) from their first appearances in dragon magazine, and that's been longer than 25 years. i especially enjoyed his "ecology" articles (the ecology of the gulguthra was set in harrowdale, issue #96, published in 85 i think), and his "nine hells" articles. the earliest mention of the realms i think is in #37 (city of brass and dead orc's pass), so, at least dragon readers have been aware of a setting called "the forgotten realms" and a wizard named elminster years before the 1e FRCS boxed set was released.
*Raises hand*

Yup, that's me. I first learned of 'The Forgotton Realms' and 'Elminster' back in Dragon #85 (iirc; don't want to dig out my dragon mags right now) with the article about the "Nine Hells". That article is what I use for how the Hell's are.

I'm glad I don't play in the FR. I'm a Greyhawk guy. But I do/did enjoy the original 'grey-box' FR set. If/when I DM in FR, that's the one I use.

I honestly feel for the FR fans. I almost feel guilty that they are getting all the attention from WotC while WotC has thankfully decided to dismiss GH with a wave of their hand. :D I can only imagine the horror that they'd bring down on GH! (hell, I *still* don't use the From the Ashes version of GH...).

I think I mentioned this in another thread, but I hate FR with a burning passion and yet even I am appalled by the treatment this setting has recieved. It's disheartening, but at the same time is fuel in the tank for homebrewers everywhere, I think.

Do you mean Races of Faerun?

I don't know what the proposed changes are - I've never been too bothered about following published settings to the absolute letter. I'll take the themes I like and run with them.

However the 'literal destruction' of the Realms would be a very appealing and exciting campaign indeed.

At least to my group where the players once took the roles of very significant (homegrown) movers and shakers in Faerûn.

I don't know what the proposed changes are...

I've been a poster/reader on the WotC FR boards ever since I first heard from a friend what was coming for the Realms, starting with the impending killing off of Mystra. As a result, I've been in the thick of a number of the complaints lodged regarding this, and have gotten to see/hear some of the WotC responses to fan objections, as well as to get an idea of their rationales behind the changes.

To me, my problems with the 4th Edition changes to the Realms come down to three major things:

1) What they've done.
2) Why they did it.
3) How they did it.

For the first, I think enough people have mentioned some of the changes being made. Most of these bother me to a greater or lesser degree, though I could probably live with a number of them. It probably wouldn't be too hard to just alter some of them for my own campaigns, were it not for the degree and scope of it all. What bothers me most, I think, are the 100 year time jump, and the deliberate killing of many NPCs and deities that have their own followings. I'll touch on that more in the next sections.

Second - there are a number of reasons why WotC's designers that worked on FR felt they needed to do what they did, whether it was to kill this God, jump the timeline 100 years, and so on. To me, it seemed as if they had taken a lot of the complaints from those who held the most extreme grudges against the Realms, and did not take into account the desires of those who had been long-time fans of the setting. I felt that many of the stated issues could have been resolved in a much less intrusive manner, to address concerns without angering the existing customers. Certain deities, for instance, could have been reduced in power or scope, rather than just killed off. To use Mystra as an example, the problem isn't the concept of a deity of magic. How many complaints do people hear about Boccob, anyway? The problem was in how she was set up, as the all-powerful of who can and can't use magic. Given that she basically never invoked this anyway, in practice, where's the real problem? Have an event that changes the nature of the weave, and leave her weaker, but still alive. Take the uber-power from her Chosen at the same time, and poof, one big problem solved.

Third - much of it just seemed lazy to me. The cataclysmic event and the huge time jump essentially present excuses to just rewrite things from the ground up without bothering to do the groundwork to make it happen. Many of the deaths of NPCs were also bothersome. I personally think that killing an NPC in the prelude text of an adventure is about as ignominious an end as you can have, and this happened more than once. It's bad enough that you're going to kill off one of the world's major figures, but there should at least be some drama and reasoning behind it. Furthermore, the way that they claimed that having major NPC heroes overshadowed the player characters is grossly belied by the fact that they chose to leave the most obvious pair of examples - Drizzt and Elminster - alive and kicking. Based on my anecdotal experiences, Drizzt is probably the one FR NPC I most often hear cited as a "Mary Sue", and most often complained about.

I've been a fan of the Forgotten Realms for years, and bought every single 3.0/3.5 sourcebook and novel that came out (well, I may have missed a novel or two, but I tried). This whole experience has soured me on it, and while I still enjoy playing in the pre-Spellplague Realms, I find myself thoroughly uninterested in the 4th edition version, much in the way I lost all interest in Dragonlance after the whole "Fifth Age" conversion (and still haven't yet found any interest in going back even after they returned to the 3.x rules).

Bottom line - I don't think it was necessary, and I think that if the designers had spent more time listening to some of the fans, and trying to incorporate everyone's feedback, rather than just the most vocal objections and rants, 4th Edition FR could have been an amazingly cool world. I wanted to like it - but there are just too many things I can't get over.

This is all a large part of my rising interest in Pathfinder and Golarion. I'd just as soon not change worlds, but there have been a number of aspects that really impressed me thus far. The openness and responsiveness of Paizo's staff have also made a not insignificant impact on my decisions, compared to how I felt when looking at the decisions WotC made. So rock on, guys. :D

How many complaints do people hear about Boccob, anyway?

Fire_Wraith wrote:

How many complaints do people hear about Boccob, anyway?

Complaining about Boccob wouldn't do anything. It's not like he or his followers would care.

"Hey, you darn sorcerers, get your hands off my scrolls!"

Mystra on the other hand...another symptom of novelists and designers doing a game of one-upmanship, designing a nigh-unkillable character who exercises massive power with extreme prejudice (and when I say prejudice, I mean the "my servants get +10 Con and awesome abilities" prejudice - part of me thinks they should just make the Chosen demi-gods and be done with it).

So, as a Realms fan with a hate on for characters who are impossibly overpowered (not including Drizzt in this bunch, he is average for his level), I can say that some change would have been welcomed (I like the suggestion of weakening Mystra) but I dislike the massive overhaul more than just sticking with the status quo.

I mean, every other time Mystra died (and there have been several) another entity came in to take her place. This time, Shar tries and instead of becoming the new Mystra (which would be a neat twist, having Shar altered forever) she fails to become Mystra AND loses the Shadow Weave. Arbitrary, contrived, and downright ridiculous.

Ao: "Well, I never liked the Realms anyway, because I am stupid, so I'll just let a massive cataclysm occur by not stopping Cyric, not helping Mystra, stopping Shar, and then ensuring everything goes haywire by not having a god of magic."

Bah! And what happened to all of Mystra's cohorts like Azuth?

[/rant]

Bah! And what happened to all of Mystra's cohorts like Azuth?

[/rant]

It would just have been easy enough to address the issues, and just say "Well, it's a new edition, we're presenting it a little differently. Yes, this guy was a god in a previous edition, but now there are no demi-gods, just divine servants." Just print the major gods in the campaign setting, and do another book that lists all of their lesser allies, servitors, and such.

As far as Drizzt, the problem that some people apparently have isn't so much his power, as it is that he tends to be a scene-stealer, and as such he overshadows people, despite the fact that he is otherwise 'normal' in terms of stats.

As far as a replacement for Mystra, the designers seemed determined not to have one, regardless of how the new Mystra be portrayed. They seemed to think that 4E's magic system was so antithetical to the notions of the Weave, period, and that Mystra was so conceptually tied into the very notion of the Weave, that she had to go - as if the simple fact of having a god/goddess of magic was the problem.

again, the proverbial chainsaw instead of a scalpel.

But then, they went and dropped a chunk of a whole different world on Toril, along with a race that has no precedent. Why couldn't they have made the dragonborn a fledgling race just coming to their own from one of the less-focused-on parts of the world? They go off killing deities in ridiculous ways (come on...Eilistraee killed by -Halisstra Melarn-? Mystra's death not even happening -on screen-!?!?), drastically alter the landscape for no good reason...and for what? So they can fit FR into their "points of light" craptacular idea?

People play in the Realms because they -like- the complexity, because they -like- hundreds of deities, because they -like- the world -as it is-. Why butcher your most well known setting for the people that don't like it to begin with? They have other settings for those people, other settings that fit their ideas better.

But no, instead they took a flamethrower to the place we know and love...this, more than -any- other reason (even more than it not feeling like real D&D anymore) is why I'm not interested in 4e. They ruined the place we loved, relieved themselves on the ashes, and poured them over our heads while laughing maniacally. I hope like hell WotC's market share burns as badly as they burned FR...I hope (even though I know it's fruitless) that by this time next year, WotC will no longer -have- a market share.

The world already has Uwe Boll to obliterate the franchises the fans know and love...the last thing we needed was that treatment in our tabletop games, too.

The world already has Uwe Boll to obliterate the franchises the fans know and love...the last thing we needed was that treatment in our tabletop games, too.

Drizzt - a shades-wearing cop in Amn on the lookout for Shadow Thieves
Elminster - crotchety old sage with way to many super-powers (no change)
Artemis - possessed by Cyric and conducting secret genetic experiments on the people of Baldur's Gate
Halastar - now a woman, scantily clad and NOT insane, a companion of Drizzt
Ao - the name of a powerful corporation that owns the Sword Coast
The Simbul: one word - PSIONICS!

Is this any worse than what has actually happened?

Oh, and I think it is pretty obvious that the design team cares more for attracting new players to a popular campaign setting than for the reason for liking the campaign setting in the first place. I love the fact that when I make a Paladin, I can choose from a handful of deities who represent subtle nuances of the LG ethos. Nope, now you get cookie-cutter Lawful Stupid.