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My concerns with doing that are:
Spontaneous healing lets a cleric not plan on being a heal bot, but is able to fall back on a critical role. If we don't let spont heal continue, we are nearly requiring the healing domain and/or spontaneous healing feat (which is non-SRD)
If we allow spont casting in one domain, it is okay, but really focuses the character, specifically they focus intently on memorizing spells from their other domain (or domains) given our rules
Finally if we allow spontanous casting across all domains, we are basically allowing clerics a general extra spell every level, since they prepare any domain spell in their bonus slot, then spont cast the one they need.
I don't have a cure yet
I don't have a cure yetAll good points... Me, neither. But we'll think of something. Maybe when Grindor gets up he'll have had another epiphany.
Maybe not an epiphany, but I'll throw some ideas out there as I think of them. I agree, it's a tough decision.
If we let them spontaneously cast from all domains, it would mean that the more 'points' you spend on domains, the more benefit you get, and some clerics could spontaneously casting healing spells and other spells too. Could be under or overpowered depending.
As we've gathered more features into the list, I've been thinking of 'major' and 'minor' features, or 'core' and 'bonus' features. So, BAB, saves, hit die, extra domain, etc. are all major features, while some other things are minor features, such as 'more class skills' or 'spontaneously cast from an extra domain'. This idea's really rough at the moment, because it's just been floating in my head after noticing that some features kinda seem more powerful than others. I'll have to think about this again.
I've run a solo campaign with a cleric who spontaneously cast spells from the trickery and fate (SpC) domains. It was solo, so she didn't have to heal many people - just herself and her NPC companion - but having a wand of cure light wounds did wonders. Also, remember that with spontaneous domain casting, what formerly would've been domain slots can now have healing spells prepared in them. So, you've always got a healing spell of every level on hand.
I haven't found a problem with it yet, but it's only been one solo campaign. Here's an idea... we make it a choice. It shouldn't even cost any points. You can choose to spontaneously cast cure/inflict spells, or domain spells. This would allow for medics are carers of each faith, as well as those clerics who try to emulate their god and feel that casting spells from the god's domain is a form of honour.
That's a simple work around and I'm not sure how good it is, but it would get rid of the problem. Then people can choose to play an old-style cleric or a new-style cleric.
Now, a couple of things about the most recent list. I like what you've done with the saves. Always having good will makes perfect sense. And you can still make the PHB cleric from here. The bonus domain not from your god's list being 2 choices puts me off a bit. I understand why it's been done, but it messes up the cloistered cleric a little. If I'm counting correctly, it means they can only get up to 4 skills points. If the god they worship already has the Knowledge domain, they get more choices. Anyway, as I said, the 'values' of the choices are getting a bit tricky at the moment, but it's mostly all good.
Oh, I'm also still in favour of just flat out giving proficiency with the deity's weapon (not just moving it one step closer). I think its specific enough that it doesn't overpower it.
Let me just say this is one of the most interesting threads I've run across. I wish I had something to say that was adding to the discussion, but I don't. I don't think I'm that good at 3rd edition crunch & balancing issues. But I seriously love the way this modular base cleric is developing. As long as we can still build the core "Jozan" build w/ it, it just opens up new worlds of possibilities, in which clerics really are more dissimilar to one another than similar. Very cool.
One question for Grindor: by "solo" campaign, did you mean you were the DM, and you had a buddy playing one character (+ NPC run by ?)?
EDIT: Hey Paizo! How about considering this new modular cleric for your new world? It's a win-win. Those who like the "normal" cleric can keep playing one, but those who want to try something new (and still balanced) could.
Let me just say this is one of the most interesting threads I've run across. I wish I had something to say that was adding to the discussion, but I don't. I don't think I'm that good at 3rd edition crunch & balancing issues. But I seriously love the way this modular base cleric is developing. As long as we can still build the core "Jozan" build w/ it, it just opens up new worlds of possibilities, in which clerics really are more dissimilar to one another than similar. Very cool.
One question for Grindor: by "solo" campaign, did you mean you were the DM, and you had a buddy playing one character (+ NPC run by ?)?
EDIT: Hey Paizo! How about considering this new modular cleric for your new world? It's a win-win. Those who like the "normal" cleric can keep playing one, but those who want to try something new (and still balanced) could.
Thanks Ben :) Glad you like what we're doing. It's been on my mind for a while, and when I saw that some others had interest in it, I just had to get it started :)
Yeah, I never quite know what to call it. I run a regular game with four players, but the solo game I'm talking about is me as the DM running a game for my girlfriend. Because the general structure of D&D is based on a four person party, I also play as a NPC that goes along with her on all her adventures to balance things out a little (and if she falls unconscious, it's not the end of the world). He's got stats, takes a share of the treasure, and so on. Like a sidekick or partner, really. So, in total (including me) two people.
I'd love it if Paizo took this modular cleric idea on board for Pathfinder! Unfortunately we wouldn't get developer credit or anything, but it'd be supported by Paizo, which would be awesome! Not expecting that to happen, but I think I recall them talking about something similar for down the track... so who knows?
Anyway, this is moving along a lot quicker than I thought it would, and the basics have come together quite nicely. It'll be awesome once we work through to completion. Once it's done, I'll definitely be using this in my games, and of course, I hope other people get use from it too :)
Here's an idea... we make it a choice. It shouldn't even cost any points. You can choose to spontaneously cast cure/inflict spells, or domain spells.
No problem with that here.
The bonus domain not from your god's list being 2 choices puts me off a bit. I understand why it's been done, but it messes up the cloistered cleric a little.
No; by my reckoning, the cloistered guys are going to be the ones who worship gods with the Knowledge domain anyway (Boccob or Vecna). If not, well, then they lose some something in the bargain... but a cleric of Kord has no business being cloistered in the first place! But this keeps people from ALL taking the War domain just for the weapon focus and cool domain spells.
No problem with that here.
Great :)
No; by my reckoning, the cloistered guys are going to be the ones who worship gods with the Knowledge domain anyway (Boccob or Vecna). If not, well, then they lose some something in the bargain... but a cleric of Kord has no business being cloistered in the first place! But this keeps people from ALL taking the War domain just for the weapon focus and cool domain spells.
So true. After reading your comment, I agree. I was kinda on the fence about it anyway. It's always seemed like cloistered clerics who actually worship a god of knowledge lose out, because they don't get the extra domain (seeing as they've already got it). But I think you're right. If we make that the default, then if a cleric of a war god wants to be a bookworm, they lose something else. I'm basically typing while thinking, and this is just repeating what you've said, but it's helping me work through it.
I wasn't against it before, just a bit iffy, but upon thinking about it, I'm now all for the domain not on your god's list costing two points or choices. Makes sense :)
What's your take on the deity's favoured weapon? Move it one step closer to simple (martial becomes simple, exotic becomes martial) or just grant proficiency with it? This does step on War clerics' toes a bit, but they still get Weapon Focus. Maybe, we could let them select fighter feats as a fighter equal to their level minus two, or something (like a warblade)? Just a thought.
What's your take on the deity's favoured weapon? Move it one step closer to simple (martial becomes simple, exotic becomes martial) or just grant proficiency with it? This does step on War clerics' toes a bit, but they still get Weapon Focus. Maybe, we could let them select fighter feats as a fighter equal to their level minus two, or something (like a warblade)? Just a thought.
I'd still like to pull this off without any flagrant violations of core rules, if we can, so I'm hesitant to change any domain granted powers. We could either:
(a) leave it alone. Advantages: simplicity, core rules compliance, people worshipping Corellon Larethean already get longsword proficiency by virtue of being elves, etc. Disadvantages: Clerics of deities with martial or exotic favored weapons lose out unless those deities grant the War domain.(b) Give 'em proficiency for free. Advantages: everyone gets their deity's favored weapon (makes sense). Disadvantages: nerfs the War domain.
i have a beef with throwing out "turn undead".
i don't mind trading it in for equally powerful abilities by individual clerics but it seems to me that most gods, as representatives of 'the natural order of things' should be outraged by undead and want to return them to their graves as a matter of course...
(a) leave it alone. Advantages: simplicity, core rules compliance, people worshipping Corellon Larethean already get longsword proficiency by virtue of being elves, etc. Disadvantages: Clerics of deities with martial or exotic favored weapons lose out unless those deities grant the War domain.
(b) Give 'em proficiency for free. Advantages: everyone gets their deity's favored weapon (makes sense). Disadvantages: nerfs the War domain.
Yeah, even though I suggested it, I was hesitant, because I also want to leave the core rules as much in tact as possible. Ideally, the core rules wouldn't need any changing. Maybe we could offer weapon proficiency as one of the features. That way, you can select it, but lose something else. Then again... most people wouldn't do that, because it's only worth a feat, two at most. In the iconics thread, they were discussing making a feat for each god, which gives proficiency with that god's favoured weapon, and maybe a +2 to a relevant skill, or another little bonus of some sort.
Again, thinking as I type, but maybe we should just leave the proficiency out of it. I personally give to for free to my players, but that's a house rule.
Ok. I think we leave it alone. And then after we're done, if we want, we can make a feat (or feats) like those mentioned above. I'm still on the fence about this one too, but I've gotta go one way or the other. The reason I'm leaning towards leaving it alone is - as you said - for simplicity and core rules compliance.
i have a beef with throwing out "turn undead".
i don't mind trading it in for equally powerful abilities by individual clerics but it seems to me that most gods, as representatives of 'the natural order of things' should be outraged by undead and want to return them to their graves as a matter of course...
We're not actually throwing it out. I can see how it could look that way, though. We're basically turning it into a feat which you can select for free. So, those who want it can select it (and you can build a normal PHB cleric) and those who want something a bit different can select one of the other divine feats that already exist and are powered by turn undead attempts. That way, any cleric of any god could still have turn/rebuke undead, but if they wanted something a bit different, they could. We're doing the same thing with spontaneous cure/inflict spells. You can choose that, or to spontaneously cast spells from one of your domains.
i have a beef with throwing out "turn undead".
i don't mind trading it in for equally powerful abilities by individual clerics but it seems to me that most gods, as representatives of 'the natural order of things' should be outraged by undead and want to return them to their graves as a matter of course...
am i right or am i right?
We're not actually throwing it out. I can see how it could look that way, though. We're basically turning it into a feat which you can select for free. So, those who want it can select it (and you can build a normal PHB cleric) and those who want something a bit different can select one of the other divine feats that already exist and are powered by turn undead attempts. That way, any cleric of any god could still have turn/rebuke undead, but if they wanted something a bit different, they could. We're doing the same thing with spontaneous cure/inflict spells. You can choose that, or to spontaneously cast spells from one of your domains.i have a beef with throwing out "turn undead".
i don't mind trading it in for equally powerful abilities by individual clerics but it seems to me that most gods, as representatives of 'the natural order of things' should be outraged by undead and want to return them to their graves as a matter of course...
oh,well that's alright, then
We're not actually throwing it out. I can see how it could look that way, though. We're basically turning it into a feat which you can select for free. So, those who want it can select it (and you can build a normal PHB cleric) and those who want something a bit different can select one of the other divine feats that already exist and are powered by turn undead attempts. That way, any cleric of any god could still have turn/rebuke undead, but if they wanted something a bit different, they could. We're doing the same thing with spontaneous cure/inflict spells. You can choose that, or to spontaneously cast spells from one of your domains.i have a beef with throwing out "turn undead".
i don't mind trading it in for equally powerful abilities by individual clerics but it seems to me that most gods, as representatives of 'the natural order of things' should be outraged by undead and want to return them to their graves as a matter of course...oh,well that's alright, then
i am actually a fan of interchangeable class features-e.g. I'd like to build an SRD bard with sneak attack so i can have a party of bards with each one specializing in his/her own iconic role
-wouldn't Olidammara approve of a cleric with sneak attack?-
i am actually a fan of interchangeable class features-e.g. I'd like to build an SRD bard with sneak attack so i can have a party of bards with each one specializing in his/her own iconic role
-wouldn't Olidammara approve of a cleric with sneak attack?-
Yeah, I'm a fan too. As you may have read, I house ruled a sneak attacking cleric. But that wasn't as thought out as this.
I think the Paizo monster ate a post of mine just now, so here it is again (glad I'm saving these offline).
Here's the latest build. Have I missed anything? Have I added anything we didn't agree on? I think we were leaning towards letting the hit die get as high as a d12, because you'll have lots of health, but not much more (seeing as it'll take three of your four points to get to a d12).
THE NON-GENERIC CLERIC
Base Cleric:
* Hit Die: d6
* Poor Base Attack Bonus
* Poor Fortitude save
* Poor Reflex save
* Good Will save
* 2 skill points per level
* Proficiency with all simple weapons and light armour
* 2 domains from the list of your deity's domains
* Divine Channelling (usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier)
* Choice of one divine feat (powered by Divine Channelling; one of these feats is Turn/Rebuke Undead)
* Choice of spontaneously casting cure or inflict spells (depending on your alignment) or spontaneously casting spells from one of your domains
You have four points to spend on the following additions and improvements to the base cleric.
Unless otherwise stated, each option is worth one point and may only be selected once.
* Increase hit die by one step. This option may be selected three times.
* Improve Base Attack Bonus by one step. This option may be selected twice.
* Improve Fortitude save.
* Improve Reflex save.
* Gain 2 more skill points per level and two more class skills. This option may be selected twice.
* Gain medium and heavy armour proficiency, and shield proficiency (except tower shields).
* Gain access to a domain on your deity's list of domains. This option may be selected twice.
* Gain access to a domain not on your deity's list of domains. This option costs two points.
I like the ideas here very much, and it goes in a direction I was looking for. It comes close to the more specialized clerics of 2nd Ed, without having to look up the various spheres etc.
Now, for the deities weapon: I would not give them to the cleric for free.
Reasons: 1. core rules compliance (crc? :-))
2. devalueing the war domain.
3. taking a feat for the weapon shows the priests dedication and should be a point of honor to most clerics.
Spontaneous casting: having cure/inflict as default and being able to replace it with casting domain spells seems resonable and balanced to me.
Turning undead: much the same as spontaneous casting: leave TU as default, and having an option of using divine energies for other purposes (just some spontaneous ideas: War: morale bonus on battlefield, perhaps like the Bless spell for a whole military unit; Trickery: distracting guards (or other people) for a few rounds; Knowledge: gaining a temporary bonus (clerics level?) on knowledge rolls.)
Being able to turn enemies of the faith is interesting as well, but can be troubling for game balance. Could clerics of an evil death god turn every living being then? I know this is a bit far-fetched as an example, but I wanted to point out the trouble spots here. And a god of knowledge? illiterates? book-burners? This should be reserved for more warlike gods, or gods with clearly defined enemies, if used at all. Elves vs. orcs or Heironeans vs. Hextorians might work well.
Just some ideas.
Stefan
Posting at the same time as Grindor...
So, by your list, a cleric gets up to four "regular" domains. I´ve no problem with that, but keep in mind that if a cleric with four domains and spontaneous domain casting gets quite powerful there. Perhaps limiting spontaneous domain casting to the two domains selected at start?
Stefan
EDIT: Reading thoroughly sure helps: you have limited it to one domain already. Shtupid me...
I like the ideas here very much, and it goes in a direction I was looking for. It comes close to the more specialized clerics of 2nd Ed, without having to look up the various spheres etc.
Now, for the deities weapon: I would not give them to the cleric for free.
Reasons: 1. core rules compliance (crc? :-))
2. devalueing the war domain.
3. taking a feat for the weapon shows the priests dedication and should be a point of honor to most clerics.
Glad you like the concept. It's coming along well, I think. Funny thing is that I've actually never played or read 2nd Edition :)
I agree with you on all counts here. Especially the in-game idea that priests who learn to use the deity's weapon - despite not necessarily being great with weapons to begin with - consider it a point of honour. If you've got the War domain, then fair enough, but if you don't, you're gonna have to spend a feat - showing in-game training and choices - to wield the weapon effectively.
Posting at the same time as Grindor...
So, by your list, a cleric gets up to four "regular" domains. I´ve no problem with that, but keep in mind that if a cleric with four domains and spontaneous domain casting gets quite powerful there. Perhaps limiting spontaneous domain casting to the two domains selected at start?
Stefan
EDIT: Reading thoroughly sure helps: you have limited it to one domain already. Shtupid me...
Responses here have been good. Nobody's complaining about the option of having several domains, for example.
The great thing about making them choose is that they can have four domains if they want, but that's all they're gonna get.I agree - as you've seen, judging by your edit - that spontaneous casting of all of them is a bit much. However, I personally house rule that you can spontaneously cast from both your domains (for clerics who normally only have two) but I'm not sure about that here, seeing as all spontaneous casting that exists in the core rules (clerics and druids) only lets them cast one type of spell spontaneously. As much as I like being able to cast from two of them, maybe even that is too much.
Hmm... spontaneously casting one domain is ok, but perhaps we can include an option allowing more domains? One choice of the "four points" could be
* Allows spontaneous casting of domain spells from one domain.
This should be independent from the choice of the cleric if he casts heal or one domain spell spontaneously in the first place. So, you could get a cleric spontaneously casting healing spells and one or more domains as well.
Opinions?
Stefan
Yeah, if anything, that's probably the way to do it. The issue here, again, is the 'value' of spontaneous casting. I think it'd fit fairly well though. You'd have to sacrifice higher hit die or BAB, etc. so it'd kinda show your focus on the magical side of things.
Well, yeah, I think that might be a good way to go about it, but I'd be interested to hear the opinions of the others who have contributed so far.
Snorter
(Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Roleplaying Game, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber; GameMastery Superscriber)
What have I started?
LOL
Thank you to everyone who has taken my threadjack on the Pathfinder Iconics topic, and run with it, so well, and intelligently.
I can't believe so many posts have been left since, what, Friday? Saturday?
I'm so happy to see that there's been no sarcasm, no flaming, and no 'munchkinism' (apologies to all who hate the term, but you all know what I mean). Everyone here seems to be trying to keep everything balanced, rather than trying to gain an 'angle' to twist the arm of their home DM.
I have the issues of Dragon, but I still have them in a pile waiting to be read, but I am aware that much of what I have been thinking for years may have been covered by better writers than me.
Utmost respect to all the posters so far, some of you I know, some are new to me, but I think we have some bright people here!
Snort!
What have I started?
LOL
Thank you to everyone who has taken my threadjack on the Pathfinder Iconics topic, and run with it, so well, and intelligently.
I can't believe so many posts have been left since, what, Friday? Saturday?I'm so happy to see that there's been no sarcasm, no flaming, and no 'munchkinism' (apologies to all who hate the term, but you all know what I mean). Everyone here seems to be trying to keep everything balanced, rather than trying to gain an 'angle' to twist the arm of their home DM.
I have the issues of Dragon, but I still have them in a pile waiting to be read, but I am aware that much of what I have been thinking for years may have been covered by better writers than me.
Utmost respect to all the posters so far, some of you I know, some are new to me, but I think we have some bright people here!
Snort!
Hi. I was just wondering when you might post here. Thankyou for the inspiration and the kind words. Threadjacking can lead to good things sometimes, I guess :)
As I mentioned here earlier, this type of cleric has been on my mind for quite some time and when I saw your post in the other thread and people responding positively to it, I thought a thread like this soon would appear. After a day or two, it hadn't so I thought I'd get the ball rolling :)
I was also checking the post count today and was a bit surprised we'd racked up so many already. It's been a very productive thread.
Thanks again for your original post which inspired all this, and thanks for the support!
That´s what I love these boards for: productive work in concert with others, and a very civil tone overall.
May I ask a litte thing here: Could everybody try to give the sources of his ideas? I read several times about some dragon articles, but if you would state which issue (and ideally, page) you refer to, it would be much easier to follow you. Same goes for sourcebooks etc.
Stefan
May I ask a litte thing here: Could everybody try to give the sources of his ideas? I read several times about some dragon articles, but if you would state which issue (and ideally, page) you refer to, it would be much easier to follow you. Same goes for sourcebooks etc.
Sure :)
Some of these page references have been written before and then afterwards, simply referred to without page reference, which is probably why you missed them. Here's a list of what we've been using.
The first three are in the SRD, so I've linked to them.
RESOURCES
Cleric - PHB, p30 - This is, of course, the standard cleric, which we want to make sure this can still be made from our variant.
Cloistered Cleric - UA, p50 - This is a variant cleric which focuses more on knowledge and less on combat. This is where we got the idea to reduce the BAB and allow for extra domains. We're trying to let it be made using our variant too (or something close to it).
Thug - UA, p51 - We used this fighter variant to work out that Medium + Heavy + Shield Proficiencies is approximately equal to 2 extra skill points per level.
Spontaneous Domain Casting - PHB2, p37 - This alternate class feature allows - as the name suggests - spontaneous domain casting, instead of spontaneous cure/inflict spells.
Divine Feats - Complete Divine, p78; Complete Warrior, p106; Complete Champion, p56; PHB2, p88 - These feats allow you to spend a turn/rebuke attempt to perform some other function. The Divine Channelling feature of our cleric powers these feats (they work exactly the same as before) and Turn/Rebuke Undead is now a Divine Feat.
Improved Domain Powers - Dragon #342, p21 - This is an article with a turn/rebuke undead replacement for each domain from the PHB. They forgot to include Plant, which you can find here.
No Turning - Dragon #353, p88 - This is an article with 14 different substitutes for turn/rebuke undead, including one that allows you to gain an animal companion, and another that gives you some new class skills.
Rage Cleric - Dragon #333, p86 - Haven't really used this yet, but gives an idea of what's been done before and what features were exchanged.
There we go. I think that's pretty much all the sources we've been using. Good to get them organised for easy reference :)
I just had a hippopatumus... er eulogy...., one of those smart thingies
Lock spontaneous casting into Divine channeling.
Increase it to 5+Charisma Mod per day, then the cleric can spontaneously cast any spell from a domain they have or any cure (if good) or inflict (if evil) in exchange for one use of channeling.
The down side is it breaks from the standard SRD cleric
As you said, it messes with the standard cleric, so although I like the idea, I don't think we should do it. Also, it doesn't let you spontaneously cast all day, only a few times (plenty at lower levels, not really enough later on, perhaps).
Fortunately, the Domain Spontaneity divine feat on page 80 of Complete Divine does basically the same thing. Let's you spontaneously cast from one of your domains by expending a turn/rebuke attempt. So you could take that as your divine feat, which would work fairly well, allowing them to heal mostly, but sometimes cast domain spells. Or cast from one domain mostly, and from another a few times per day. It seems to give the same effect as what you're suggesting, without altering the standard cleric :)
Yup,
the clicnh is that we have come a long way towards making clerics who are more in tune with their gods. Abilities and training that reflect their religion and even their sect.
Then we run into spontaneous casting which is a game balance ability. Every party needs healing, and it usually comes from the cleric. In order to keep the cleric from having to memorize heal spells exclusively (to make sure they had enough) WotC let them spont cast healing.
In the Classic (fighter wizard rogue cleric) group the problem is quite pronounced, the rogue can use magic device and carry a wand of CLW, but otherwise all healing flows through the cleric. Say bye bye buff spells for fear of unhealable damage.
Spontaneous domain casting makes the most sense religion wise, and spontaneous healing makes the most sense meta-game wise, and both together are really too powerful when the cleric is tweaked for exactly what the player wants.
grrr... not sure what to do here
Spontaneous domain casting makes the most sense religion wise, and spontaneous healing makes the most sense meta-game wise, and both together are really too powerful when the cleric is tweaked for exactly what the player wants.
grrr... not sure what to do here
I understand your concern, but don't think it's too big a problem.
I think that if we give the player the choice, then it's up to them (and their DM) to decide. I'm not trying to shift the problem, I just think it's not something that we - designing this class - should try to work out to deeply. Some people are going to want cure/inflict, some will want domain. We should give them the option to have one or the other. And if they want both, they can take that Domain Spontaneity feat we mentioned.
How does this sit with you?
I think it will be fine that way, really, but somewhere deep inside my over controlling psyche it feels like selling something in a box with a crushed corner, the contents are certainly fined, but it still doesn't seem perfect as a result.
I think I will get over it.
Ha, that's a good way of putting it. I know what you mean. I think there'll be a few things like that with this cleric. But hey, once we're done, then we can all tweak it even more however we want for our own use :)
This would be a really good Class Acts article for Dragon... if only...
Hmm... yeah. I saw they put up "Dragon/Dungeon Submission Guidelines" the other day. Didn't look into it much further than that though. Wonder how similar their online replacement will be.
Anyway... what's next for this cleric? We can't be done, yet. Surely not!
Here's what we've got:
THE NON-GENERIC CLERIC
Base Cleric:
* Hit Die: d6
* Poor Base Attack Bonus
* Poor Fortitude save
* Poor Reflex save
* Good Will save
* 2 skill points per level
* Proficiency with all simple weapons and light armour
* 2 domains from the list of your deity's domains
* Divine Channelling (usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier)
* Choice of one divine feat (powered by Divine Channelling; one of these feats is Turn/Rebuke Undead)
* Choice of spontaneously casting cure or inflict spells (depending on your alignment) or spontaneously casting spells from one of your domainsYou have four points to spend on the following additions and improvements to the base cleric.
Unless otherwise stated, each option is worth one point and may only be selected once.* Increase hit die by one step. This option may be selected three times.
* Improve Base Attack Bonus by one step. This option may be selected twice.
* Improve Fortitude save.
* Improve Reflex save.
* Gain 2 more skill points per level and two more class skills. This option may be selected twice.
* Gain medium and heavy armour proficiency, and shield proficiency (except tower shields).
* Gain access to a domain on your deity's list of domains. This option may be selected twice.
* Gain access to a domain not on your deity's list of domains. This option costs two points.
We've agreed to remove the deity's favoured weapon thing (for simplicity and core rules compliance) and we've just now agreed that the spontaneous casting is fine how we've got it listed.
What else do we need?
The only other thing I can think of that we might need is a reaon to stay a cleric, as opposed to getting out in to the first available PrC.
Perhaps abilites at 10+ like the rogue
Hmm, that's a thought. Most people usually prestige to make their cleric more like the god they worship, but now you get that from level one. That's a good point and we'll have to think about it.
I've started writing a few up, and I've already hit a few problems. The cloistered cleric isn't quite the same, and some variants people might want aren't actually powered by divine channelling (such as gaining an animal companion). That's fine though. We just need to add to one line.
Choice of one divine feat (powered by Divine Channelling; one of these feats is Turn/Rebuke Undead)
...changes to...
Choice of one divine feat (powered by Divine Channelling; one of these feats is Turn/Rebuke Undead) or one other variant class feature which states that it replaces turn or rebuke undead.
Perhaps abilites at 10+ like the rogueThen we're out of compliance with the SRD cleric again.
Silly forum ate my post...
Anyway, I would argue we aren't becuase very very few clerics make it to 10+ without prestiging out, because you don't loose anything, only gain
A while back while having a similar discussion about wizards, we decided to roll the archmage into the wizard class, granting high arcana at even levels starting at 12.
We suggest then doing the same thing for clerics and hierophants, and i still think it is a good idea.
Ahem...
Hmm... spontaneously casting one domain is ok, but perhaps we can include an option allowing more domains? One choice of the "four points" could be* Allows spontaneous casting of domain spells from one domain.
This should be independent from the choice of the cleric if he casts heal or one domain spell spontaneously in the first place. So, you could get a cleric spontaneously casting healing spells and one or more domains as well.
Opinions?
Stefan
What about this? (Ok, it´s my idea, that´s why I push it :-))
btw, the build for the Olidammara cleric looked good to me.
Stefan
* Allows spontaneous casting of domain spells from one domain.That looks OK to me, but as a player, I'd rather spend a feat on it (given the option).
Oh yeah! I forgot about that. I did like the sound of it, and still do.
I would also rather spend a feat on it (as a player), even though it'd be limited to 3 + Cha mod times per day, instead of unlimited. Still, if we'd rather spend a feat on it, then it can't be too powerful to add in :)
I'm gonna post a couple of clerics now, so prepare for the onslaught... well, two to three more posts.
Grindor,
After we finish this, I wonder if I can beg you to glance at my Prestige Sorcerer thread, and/or my Variant Assassin one? I'm having a hard time getting mechanical feedback here, and you're an ace. If you've no interest in arcane casters, then no big deal; just figured it wouldn't hurt to ask ;)
THE STANDARD PHB CLERIC
* Hit Die: d8 [1 point]
* Average Base Attack Bonus [1 point]
* Good Fortitude save [1 point]
* Poor Reflex save
* Good Will save
* 2 skill points per level
* Proficiency with all simple weapons, with all types of armour (light, medium and heavy), and with shields (except tower shields) [1 point]
* Domains: Healing, Protection
* Divine Channelling
* Divine Feat: Turn Undead
* Spontaneously Cast: Cure spells
I know this was already posted, but it's set out in the same format as the other ones I'm about to post, which gives a nice reference point.
THE CLOISTERED CLERIC
* Hit Die: d6
* Poor Base Attack Bonus
* Good Fortitude save [1 point]
* Poor Reflex save
* Good Will save
* 6 skill points per level and four more class skills (Decipher Script, Forgery, Gather Information, Speak Language) [2 points]
* Proficiency with all simple weapons and light armour
* Domains: Knowledge (granting all Knowledge skills as class skills), Magic
* Divine Channelling
* Divine Feat: Divine Lore...?
* Spontaneously Cast: Knowledge spells
Ok, slight problem. The SRD cloistered cleric has ‘lore’ (like bardic knowledge) but it’s not powered by divine channelling. Maybe we can make a feat for that. I knew we weren’t going to exactly meet the cloistered cleric, but this is as close as I can get to it. The SRD cloistered cleric has a good fortitude save despite having a low BAB, which is why this example does too. Didn’t end up spending all the points...