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Looking just at PHB II classes as a comparison (especially the duskblade), would it be all that unreasonable to allow monks good BAB with unarmed strikes, special monk weapons, and combat maneuvers?
I'm going to try it out.
Do you think it's really that unbalancing? Especially if I also open up sneak attack against constructs and corporeal undead?
I am a 3.5 purist. Which means I houserule anything that doesn't suit me. ;)
Looking just at PHB II classes as a comparison (especially the duskblade), would it be all that unreasonable to allow monks good BAB with unarmed strikes, special monk weapons, and combat maneuvers?
Be careful. Flurry of blows with a higher BAB alone could be a bit overpowering. Also, are there any other classes whose weapon damage increases with their level like a monk? Those are two things that could be issues with giving a monk a fighter's BAB.
I'd be careful with that. I DM for a goliath monk that uses improved grapple a lot, and unless he's fighting something much, much bigger than him, he wins most grapple checks hands down. And monks cause full damage while grappling, and can use grapples while flurrying. (Right?) If he had a full BAB, he'd be unstoppable--well, except for Freedom of Movement....
Looking just at PHB II classes as a comparison (especially the duskblade), would it be all that unreasonable to allow monks good BAB with unarmed strikes, special monk weapons, and combat maneuvers?Be careful. Flurry of blows with a higher BAB alone could be a bit overpowering. Also, are there any other classes whose weapon damage increases with their level like a monk? Those are two things that could be issues with giving a monk a fighter's BAB.
Well, their damage increase is only for unarmed strikes. It wouldn't apply to monk weapons. Most higher level fighters are picking up things like flaming weapons that increase their damage output.
As always, testing it in play will show what fruit it bears.
Looking just at PHB II classes as a comparison (especially the duskblade), would it be all that unreasonable to allow monks good BAB with unarmed strikes, special monk weapons, and combat maneuvers?Be careful. Flurry of blows with a higher BAB alone could be a bit overpowering. Also, are there any other classes whose weapon damage increases with their level like a monk? Those are two things that could be issues with giving a monk a fighter's BAB.Well, their damage increase is only for unarmed strikes. It wouldn't apply to monk weapons. Most higher level fighters are picking up things like flaming weapons that increase their damage output.
As always, testing it in play will show what fruit it bears.
Simple solution to allow a Monk to deal Fire damage unarmed.
Step 1: Have the Sorcerer/Wizard cast Energy Resistance(Fire) on the Monk.
Step 2: Douse Monk in lantern oil.
Step 3: Set Monk on Fire.
Step 4: Have Monk attack unarmed.
Step 5: Extinguish Flames just before Energy Resistance wears off.
I play a Monk and I would seriously consider doing this.
Looking just at PHB II classes as a comparison (especially the duskblade), would it be all that unreasonable to allow monks good BAB with unarmed strikes, special monk weapons, and combat maneuvers?Be careful. Flurry of blows with a higher BAB alone could be a bit overpowering. Also, are there any other classes whose weapon damage increases with their level like a monk? Those are two things that could be issues with giving a monk a fighter's BAB.Well, their damage increase is only for unarmed strikes. It wouldn't apply to monk weapons. Most higher level fighters are picking up things like flaming weapons that increase their damage output.
As always, testing it in play will show what fruit it bears.
Simple solution to allow a Monk to deal Fire damage unarmed.
Step 1: Have the Sorcerer/Wizard cast Energy Resistance(Fire) on the Monk.
Step 2: Douse Monk in lantern oil.
Step 3: Set Monk on Fire.
Step 4: Have Monk attack unarmed.
Step 5: Extinguish Flames just before Energy Resistance wears off.
I play a Monk and I would seriously consider doing this.
Well, it even kinda sorta has precedence, considering what certain monks did during Vietnam as a protest. Except, they didn't do so much kung fu... and didn't say much about their experiences later....
Well, it even kinda sorta has precedence, considering what certain monks did during Vietnam as a protest. Except, they didn't do so much kung fu... and didn't say much about their experiences later....Looking just at PHB II classes as a comparison (especially the duskblade), would it be all that unreasonable to allow monks good BAB with unarmed strikes, special monk weapons, and combat maneuvers?Be careful. Flurry of blows with a higher BAB alone could be a bit overpowering. Also, are there any other classes whose weapon damage increases with their level like a monk? Those are two things that could be issues with giving a monk a fighter's BAB.Well, their damage increase is only for unarmed strikes. It wouldn't apply to monk weapons. Most higher level fighters are picking up things like flaming weapons that increase their damage output.
As always, testing it in play will show what fruit it bears.
Simple solution to allow a Monk to deal Fire damage unarmed.
Step 1: Have the Sorcerer/Wizard cast Energy Resistance(Fire) on the Monk.
Step 2: Douse Monk in lantern oil.
Step 3: Set Monk on Fire.
Step 4: Have Monk attack unarmed.
Step 5: Extinguish Flames just before Energy Resistance wears off.
I play a Monk and I would seriously consider doing this.
Actually tried something similar, kind of... Our party discovered a 3rd level cleric spell from Renegade Cleric, "Elemental Shape", where unarmed attacks do an extra 1d6 fire damage per round. Worked great in a grapple, especially when our 20 Strength 1/2 orc monk was grappling more than 1 opponent.
The burning oil would only last 2 rounds, correct?
That's a good point -- a monk specialized in grappling can grapple pretty much anything already (if he gets a size increase via Enlarge Person or Polymorph, at any rate).
I'd be careful with that. I DM for a goliath monk that uses improved grapple a lot, and unless he's fighting something much, much bigger than him, he wins most grapple checks hands down. And monks cause full damage while grappling, and can use grapples while flurrying. (Right?) If he had a full BAB, he'd be unstoppable--well, except for Freedom of Movement....
Well, it even kinda sorta has precedence, considering what certain monks did during Vietnam as a protest. Except, they didn't do so much kung fu... and didn't say much about their experiences later....Looking just at PHB II classes as a comparison (especially the duskblade), would it be all that unreasonable to allow monks good BAB with unarmed strikes, special monk weapons, and combat maneuvers?Be careful. Flurry of blows with a higher BAB alone could be a bit overpowering. Also, are there any other classes whose weapon damage increases with their level like a monk? Those are two things that could be issues with giving a monk a fighter's BAB.Well, their damage increase is only for unarmed strikes. It wouldn't apply to monk weapons. Most higher level fighters are picking up things like flaming weapons that increase their damage output.
As always, testing it in play will show what fruit it bears.
Simple solution to allow a Monk to deal Fire damage unarmed.
Step 1: Have the Sorcerer/Wizard cast Energy Resistance(Fire) on the Monk.
Step 2: Douse Monk in lantern oil.
Step 3: Set Monk on Fire.
Step 4: Have Monk attack unarmed.
Step 5: Extinguish Flames just before Energy Resistance wears off.
I play a Monk and I would seriously consider doing this.
Actually tried something similar, kind of... Our party discovered a 3rd level cleric spell from Renegade Cleric, "Elemental Shape", where unarmed attacks do an extra 1d6 fire damage per round. Worked great in a grapple, especially when our 20 Strength 1/2 orc monk was grappling more than 1 opponent.
The burning oil would only last 2 rounds, correct?
Unless you get the halfling to keep throwing more flasks at the monk!
Does anyone else call soaking yourself in burning oil Bruenor's Gambit?
The reason for that would be the fact that the biggest difference between full and 3/4 BAB is five points and an extra attack. At 20th level. Usually, it's a difference of one point. The more I look at it, the more I wonder at it. Why have 3/4 BAB at all? Why not just good and bad, like saves? The only real use I see is for monster attack bonuses, since they can scale ridiculously high.
If the monk is already good at grappling, then what's the difference? The problem is with the grappling rules, not the ability to deal a little extra damage. Monks are secondary fighters. At high levels, fighters can deal out damage between 50-150 per round. Monks can't match that output. If they can increase it a little bit when grappling, fine. (They're still stuck in a grapple now, and not running around....)
A master of the martial arts should be able to kick ass.And they can't per the RAW?If by "ass", you mean "donkey", they certainly can. But otherwise, not really. :-)
They're great at making saving throws and running around real fast, though.
Strictly mathematically speaking...
A fighter at 16th level with two weapon fighting gets a BAB of --
+14 +9 +4 -1/+14 +9 +4 (Assuming Greater Two-Weapon Fighting).
A monk at 16th level with flurry of blows gets a BAB of --
+12 +12 +12 +7 +2.
It's organized a little differently, but is it really that much of a difference? We're talking two points difference overall and one of the monk's attacks is better. In addition, at that level, every one of the monks attacks gets his full strength to damage and does 2d8 points of damage. I don't know of any one handed weapon that a fighter can wield that does 2d8 points of damage (without some special feats to make it work -- monkey grip or some other crap). And I certainly don't know (off the top of my head) how a fighter would get full strength on their off hand.
Monks have other things that the fighter doesn't have and vice versa. You want a fighter - play a fighter.
You want a monk -- play a monk.
But I don't see why we need to try and make the monk a fighter...
Strictly mathematically speaking...A fighter at 16th level with two weapon fighting gets a BAB of --
+14 +9 +4 -1/+14 +9 +4 (Assuming Greater Two-Weapon Fighting).A monk at 16th level with flurry of blows gets a BAB of --
+12 +12 +12 +7 +2.It's organized a little differently, but is it really that much of a difference?
Making a fighter who is as good at melee as a monk is easy. Making a monk who is as good at melee as a fighter is hard.
But as you point out, maybe a monk isn't supposed to be as good at melee as a fighter. But then that raises the question: "What should a monk be good at besides making saving throws and running around real fast?"
Making a fighter who is as good at melee as a monk is easy. Making a monk who is as good at melee as a fighter is hard.
But as you point out, maybe a monk isn't supposed to be as good at melee as a fighter. But then that raises the question: "What should a monk be good at besides making saving throws and running around real fast?"
I forgot to mention the "Bracers of Striking" from Magic of Faerun (not sure if it was reprinted in any other publications) which basically give a monk magic "fists" same as any other magic weapon.
As to "What should a monk be good at..." -- it depends on what you want out of it.
I have always seen a monk as support more than anything else. If I were to change anything, I would make some of their special abilities able to be used on party members. I would also give them more skill points and more class skills. It has never made sense to me that the Knowledge skills are not class skills for a monk.
But in any case, giving a monk the "good" BAB would give him a base of --
+16 +16 +16 +11 +6
As opposed to the fighter's --
+14 +9 +4 -1 / +14 +9 +4
Now, pretty much every attack made by the monk is better than a fighter's. And the damage output is potentially far greater.
I really don't think that is the "solution" to the potential problem. At best, I would offer a "solution" of giving the monk a few more feats.
Monks get all sorts of neat tricks. Also, if you play the Pathfinder version, he uses his level rather than his BAB for combat maneuvers, giving him many more options and makes him even better at grappling than he previously was. Actually, looking over the Pathfinder revision of the monk, it was given quite a bit of love, ability-wise (just like every other class).
But even in 3.5, a 16th level monk gets adamantine strike (I believe that's the level he gets that at, at least) which means (in every game we've played) that he can ignore hardness. A monk with improved Sunder that just walks around crushing everything that an opponent might be holding. Magic Greatsword? Snapped like a twig under his 2d8 flurry of blows that ignores hardness. Got a wizard tossing spells from a staff? Shatter that b!#!+. Granted you could just as easily break the wizard's neck, it's more fun to cost him 80,000 gold in one attack, using two more to break both of his arms, and a fourth to break his jaw. I once asked if since I could ignore iron's hardness, if I could ignore a bone's hardness..... but that's another discussion
Ki Strike under the core rules. You can buypass hardness at 16th level and higher when your unarmed strikes are treated as adamantine for purposes of bypassing DR and Hardness. A nice ability, yes. Not the be all and end all for the 15 levels before that of monk identity.
Note also that you are only able to ignore Hardness 19 or less. Magic helps the 16th level BBEG wizard harden up his staff or other tools to 20 if he knows what's good for him.
But then that raises the question: "What should a monk be good at besides making saving throws and running around real fast?"
A lot. A monk strikes me as primarily being a cross between a rogue and a fighter. They have enough skill points and a diverse enough class skill list to focus on one or two of the rogue's key abilities; such as stealth (Hide and Move Silently) and/or scouting (Listen and Spot) and/or social encounters (Diplomacy and Sense Movtive) and/or (tactical or general) maneuverability (Climb, Jump, Swim; Tumble, even Balance; Escape Artist also likely bears mentioning), especially with their oft-mentinoed yet seemingly under-appreciated fast movement. They can't handle traps, it's true, and they don't get the massive one-hit damage of a rogue's sneak attack. But they deliver far more attacks at the same BAB with higher non-conditional damage which overcomes a wide array of common damage reductions. Further, they have better hit points and the (also oft-mentioned yet seemingly under-appreciated) superior saving throws (which, let us not forget, affords them the goodness of Evasion). Oh, and they get decent-to-good AC without wearing armor. And spell resistance. And immunity to poison. And the ability to heal themselves.
Monks are like playing a missile. You seek out soft targets with incredible speed and accuracy, undeterred by almost any attack thrown at you. For tougher targets, grapple away!
I am a huge fan of monks, and don't think their BAB (or any other aspect of the class) needs alteration.
I agree with Saern. Monks are quite versitile, they're a midway point between a skill monkey and a front line combatant. They do, however, require you to plan your rounds out more than a Fighter, but usually less so than a Rogue.
As Saern mentioned, the Monk has all 3 good Saves, meaning it starts at 2 and goes up by 1 every even numbered level(as opposed to starting at 0 and increasing every third level).
However, I do see the point someone made about not having any energy damage type with their unarmed attacks. So, here's a rough outline(edited) for a feat I mentioned in the other thread.
Energetic Strike
Requirements: Improved Unarmed, Stunning Fist, 6th Level
You have learned to focus multiple daily uses of your Stunning Fist into a raw form of elemental energy, allowing you to deal 1d4+Wis Mod points of energy damage for 1d4+Wis Mod rounds(this is the length of time you can deal the damage, not a continuous damage effect upon your target). This damage is in addition to your normal unarmed attack. You must choose the energy type at the time you activate this feat.
An alteration on this would be to make the energy type chosen when you pick up the feat, to make it more of an investment and a more careful decision about getting it. Do you want a Flaming Fist, an Acidic Kick; or perhaps both?
This would allow any character with Stunning Fist to do it, while leaving the Monk more capable of it.
Looks like a neat idea, but it seems kind of clunky to add +1d4 +Wis bonus. I think either one or the other would be better. Maybe add an additional amount of energy damage equal to your unarmed strike in the selected energy damage? That way, it would scale up with level and continue to be a significant, if not totally over-powered, effect. Also, you don't have to roll different kinds of dice at once for the damage.
And the duration should be for a fixed amount of time, like 1 round per "use" of Stunning Fist.
EDIT: Players Handbook 2 has a feat like this, I believe.
Just trying to keep it from being too much without making it too weak. I can easily see the extra damage being just the total of the character's Wisdom Mod. I wouldn't want it to be equal to the character's unarmed damage, though. That seems a bit too much. I'm not trying to make it as good as a Fighter's +1 Flaming Bastardsword, just trying to think of a way a Monk can "kinda" do the same thing as the Fighter, without actually stepping on the Fighter's toes.
As for the PH2, I'll have to look through it once I get home. I wouldn't be surprised if this was some kind of half-memorized feat.
Fighters SHOULD have a better BAB than monks. Fighters do not get spell resistance, fast movement, unarmored A.C. bonus, evasion, all saves, A.C. based on dex AND wis, dimension door, scaling melee damage, immunity to disease, or the ability to heal themselves.
Want to hit things more often as a monk? Take Weapon Finesse and pump all your future ability points into dex. That also makes you GET hit less. Plus magic items that boost dex and wisdom make a monk much harder to hit than a fighter. I would happily and confidently pit a monk I built against a fighter.
If you want to play a monk-like character with full BAB but less defensive abilities, try the battledancer from the dragon compendium or the defender from the midnight campaign setting.
And don't forget, per the RAW, you can add the TWF tree to the monk and it stacks with flurry of blows. So you could end up with 8 attacks a round, some of which can be touch attacks if you attempt to trip or initiate a grapple. If you're hasted and/or have additional natural attacks, like bites or extra limbs with multiweapon fighting, you can be a blizzard of damage.