paizo.com - Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Community / Gaming / D&D 4th Edition / GSL posted

Koldoon, Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:06 PM

The GSL has been posted to:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/welcome

like 2 min ago.

- Ashavan

joela, Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:09 PM

Koldoon wrote:

The GSL has been posted to:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/welcome

like 2 min ago.

- Ashavan

This is it. Can't wait to see Goodman Games, Green Ronin, and Necromancer Games' reaction over the next few days. Paizo, blessed be, will continue with Pathfinder for the foreseeable future.

Ross Byers (RPG Superstar Top 32), Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:11 PM

And if this happened in February, it might have mattered. Now I can't be bothered to care.

sigh.

Pax Veritas (Pathfinder Charter Subscriber, Pathfinder Modules Subscriber), Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:23 PM

WHAT A BUNCH OF SH!T.

DaveMage (Pathfinder Charter Superscriber, Planet Stories Subscriber), Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:27 PM

This should be *really* interesting.

I especially like the provision that says if you make a 4E product, you can never go back to making it an OGL product EVEN AFTER THE GSL TERMINATES.

Koldoon, Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:29 PM

DaveMage wrote:

This should be *really* interesting.

I especially like the provision that says if you make a 4E product, you can never go back to making it an OGL product EVEN AFTER THE GSL TERMINATES.

It really forces folks to make a distinctive line that they're willing to write off.

Which could be profitable or not. Hard to say.

- Ashavan

Sebastian (Bella Sara Charter Superscriber), Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:31 PM

Oooh...shiny!

I must say, that's some fine looking legal work there.

Shroomy, Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:33 PM

Sebastian wrote:

Oooh...shiny!

I must say, that's some fine looking legal work there.

It better be for all the delays! ;)

rclifton, Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:34 PM

Sebastian wrote:

Oooh...shiny!

I must say, that's some fine looking legal work there.

Sarcasm or truthfulness?

Koldoon, Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:35 PM

Sebastian wrote:

Oooh...shiny!

I must say, that's some fine looking legal work there.

I'd love to hear your impressions, Sebastian, if you're willing to share.

- Ashavan

Wicht (Pathfinder Superscriber), Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:41 PM

So if I understand this right, if you don't yet have your Tome of Horrors pdf you'd better obtain it quick because as of October, all the OGL product lines that switch over are going to have to be pulled off the PDF shelves.

Vampire Hunter G, Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:42 PM

They're coming. Run for that abandoned house, I'll hold them off.

Koldoon, Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:45 PM

no websites... harsh.

- Ashavan

DudeMonkey, Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:47 PM

WotC is basically saying that they can yank the rug out from under you any time they want with this license. Is that how it reads to everyone else?

I don't think I would publish under this license if I was in this industry, professionally speaking.

Nyarlathotep (Pathfinder Charter Subscriber, Pathfinder Chronicles Subscriber, Pathfinder Companion Subscriber), Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:55 PM

I haven't fully read it yet, but it sure looks like 3 party adventures are going to be ... unpleasent to use unless it's all custom/advanced monsters.

Koldoon, Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:55 PM

yes.... they are saying they can pull the rug out from under you... and worse, that a successful line done in 4e cannot, after termination of the license, be reworked into OGL.

I'd think very carefully about accepting this license if I were a company, you'd need to develop a unique line and distinctive trade dress that ideally would starkly contrast from anything else you did. You'd also have to be completely willing to write the whole line off at any time.

I'll be curious to see Clark's reaction to it, since he's been so much a champion of the GSL, despite many of the rumored restrictions. Now that we know what the restrictions are... I mean... I don't know, everything they give they are giving (provisionally), but I chafe at losing the flexibility to do websites, even as a fan.

Supposedly there will be a separate license that will cover fan websites, and I suppose I'm back to the waiting game to see that one.

- Ashavan

Erik Mona (Publisher), Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:56 PM

DudeMonkey wrote:

WotC is basically saying that they can yank the rug out from under you any time they want with this license. Is that how it reads to everyone else?

Yes, that's my take.

DudeMonkey wrote:

I don't think I would publish under this license if I was in this industry, professionally speaking.

That's my take, too.

joela, Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:58 PM

I think Skinsaw Murders and Hook Mountain Massacre would never qualify under the GSL. And I'd be surprised if Curse of the Crimson Throne would make it with the Queen's, uh, "alternative lifestyle".

EDIT: Oops. My bad on the latter. It's okay per the GSL as long as it's not a "put down" on such minorities. But forget Massacre under the new license!

Sebastian (Bella Sara Charter Superscriber), Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:58 PM

Koldoon wrote:

Sebastian wrote:

Oooh...shiny!

I must say, that's some fine looking legal work there.

I'd love to hear your impressions, Sebastian, if you're willing to share.

- Ashavan

I don't have much to say. It's what we would call a "Licensor favorable license". There are some absolutely brutal provisions. The one I find most funny is Section 10.1 which basically says you will never sue Wizards for infringement. Ever. It can be terminated at any time and you can't sell any product you've created using it.

I can't say I'd put money down to make a product under this license. That being said, if I were one of the medium sized fish in the rpg industry pond, I'd try and eek out a side letter granting me the rights to continue publishing for a set period of time after the revocation of the license. Who knows if WotC would do it, but that's what I would try.

Sebastian (Bella Sara Charter Superscriber), Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 05:59 PM

rclifton wrote:

Sebastian wrote:

Oooh...shiny!

I must say, that's some fine looking legal work there.

Sarcasm or truthfulness?

Truthfulness. It's very artfully drafted, and I love the way they include a countersigning provision. This sucker is a very different beast from the OGL, which was elegant, but fairly simple.

crosswiredmind, Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 06:00 PM

DudeMonkey wrote:

WotC is basically saying that they can yank the rug out from under you any time they want with this license. Is that how it reads to everyone else?

I don't think I would publish under this license if I was in this industry, professionally speaking.

Actually this reads very much like the licenses I have been party to way back when I worked on licensed products form film and comic properties. Basically the owner of the IP holds all of the cards. The OGL was truly unique and it is no surprise to me that it is as restrictive as it is.

Remember, most companies make you pay for the use of their IP in your products.

joela, Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 06:00 PM

Koldoon wrote:

I'll be curious to see Clark's reaction to it....

Same with Joseph Goodman of Goodman games.

DaveMage (Pathfinder Charter Superscriber, Planet Stories Subscriber), Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 06:01 PM

Erik Mona wrote:

DudeMonkey wrote:

WotC is basically saying that they can yank the rug out from under you any time they want with this license. Is that how it reads to everyone else?

Yes, that's my take.

DudeMonkey wrote:

I don't think I would publish under this license if I was in this industry, professionally speaking.

That's my take, too.

I guess it's a good thing you didn't wait for the license. :)

Erik Mona (Publisher), Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 06:03 PM

I've been expecting this sort of thing for months, obviously.

I'm feeling very pleased with our decision to stick with the OGL today...

crosswiredmind, Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 06:05 PM

Erik Mona wrote:

I've been expecting this sort of thing for months, obviously.

I'm feeling very pleased with our decision to stick with the OGL today...

Yep. You guys were spot on. That is a very comforting thought.

SirUrza (Pathfinder Charter Superscriber), Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 06:07 PM

It's pretty much everything I thought it'd be.

1) People can't use 3rd party products without the Core books.
2) Publisher can't mix and match their 3e and 4e products.
3) There won't be any more Books of Erotic Fantasy.

rclifton, Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 06:07 PM

Erik Mona wrote:

I've been expecting this sort of thing for months, obviously.

I'm feeling very pleased with our decision to stick with the OGL today...

As well you should! This sort of contract may be normal in some industries but even a cursory reading should make any publisher seriously think again...

Yasha0006, Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 06:07 PM

All I can say is WOW!

Rather <expletive deleted> harsh. I can certainly understand where WoTC is coming from in making this license work this way...but I don't think its a good way to do business in such a customer oriented environment.

Personally, I think this is a big mistake by WoTC. Actually, who wants to bet that its someone at Big Brother Hasbro that made this particular decision? It seems like Hasbro (likely WoTC too) don't want to share the field with quite as many third party companies. Added in is the clause that basically says, join us and you can no longer compete, except under the terms we have delineated.

rclifton, Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 06:08 PM

crosswiredmind wrote:

Erik Mona wrote:

I've been expecting this sort of thing for months, obviously.

I'm feeling very pleased with our decision to stick with the OGL today...

Yep. You guys were spot on. That is a very comforting thought.

Very gracious of you CWM! Thank you, as always for your civility!