So my Druid went the way of the Dodo. So I have a shiny new Warden give we TPK'd because of the lack of a defender.

But...

Nature's Wrath = mark all adjacent enemies as a free action.

Warden's Lunge = mark target if you hit (can be used as part of a charge)

Ok, is there something I'm missing or is Warden's Lunge useless given you can mark as a free action.

Cheers,
S.

um... ont have the books and specifics in front of me, but if lunge is an attack power then you can mark all dudes adjacent at begining of your turn then move away and mark someone else with lunge.

um... ont have the books and specifics in front of me, but if lunge is an attack power then you can mark all dudes adjacent at begining of your turn then move away and mark someone else with lunge.

Ok that makes sense. Thanks for that, hadn't occurred to me - darn 4e newbie on the board! :)

its cool. besides they do take some getting used to compared to a fighter or pally.

Also, your turn ends after you charge. You can't charge and then use a free action to mark.

Also, your turn ends after you charge. You can't charge and then use a free action to mark.

Except free actions are the only actions that can interrupt other actions. Otherwise Wand Accuracy and the Elven Reroll cannot function as powers.

Lunge is not useless at all. Warden's have a ranged interrupt for marked foes, so you can start a turn adjacent, to, say, 2 baddies. Mark for free, charge baddie 3, use Lunge, mark him. Now, you have 3 marked, and you can mess with all three.

Warden's are very very very good at defining where on the battlefield the enemy can move. They don't punish movement as much as a fighter or paladin, but they say 'You can go here or there. No where else.'

And as your hapless DM, I hate them :D

Lunge is not useless at all. Warden's have a ranged interrupt for marked foes, so you can start a turn adjacent, to, say, 2 baddies. Mark for free, charge baddie 3, use Lunge, mark him. Now, you have 3 marked, and you can mess with all three.

Warden's are very very very good at defining where on the battlefield the enemy can move. They don't punish movement as much as a fighter or paladin, but they say 'You can go here or there. No where else.'

What stops the multiple AoO from happening?

Amelia wrote:

Lunge is not useless at all. Warden's have a ranged interrupt for marked foes, so you can start a turn adjacent, to, say, 2 baddies. Mark for free, charge baddie 3, use Lunge, mark him. Now, you have 3 marked, and you can mess with all three.

Warden's are very very very good at defining where on the battlefield the enemy can move. They don't punish movement as much as a fighter or paladin, but they say 'You can go here or there. No where else.'

What stops the multiple AoO from happening?

When you move away in my example? Nothing, you take the AoOs. So what - you're a tank, you take hits :) On Whiteclaw, my warden in Rosey's PbP, I never worry about if I take an AoO. I worry about finding a way to make sure I can get to where I'm needed most on the field. I draw a lot of AoOs.

Lunge is not useless at all. Warden's have a ranged interrupt for marked foes, so you can start a turn adjacent, to, say, 2 baddies. Mark for free, charge baddie 3, use Lunge, mark him. Now, you have 3 marked, and you can mess with all three.

Warden's are very very very good at defining where on the battlefield the enemy can move. They don't punish movement as much as a fighter or paladin, but they say 'You can go here or there. No where else.'

What stops the multiple AoO from happening?

When you move away in my example? Nothing, you take the AoOs. So what - you're a tank, you take hits :) On Whiteclaw, my warden in Rosey's PbP, I never worry about if I take an AoO. I worry about finding a way to make sure I can get to where I'm needed most on the field. I draw a lot of AoOs.

This general sitution comes up a lot for our Warden. The other restriction is that although the Warden gets a AoO on his Markees, unless he has Reach or and Ranged Basic attack, he can only attack those adjacent. Sound right?

The markee (is that a word?) can still shift 'out of range' and then attack someone or charge someone else. I don't have my books handy, but it is not like the Avenger powers that allow you to follow the enemy and attack them? For example, we had a bad guy teleport the other night and then attack someone else. The Warden player argued that he should get an AoO even though he had no means of reaching the bad guy.

EDIT: I have to look up this ranged interrupt power for marked foes Amelia mentioned. Our player did not mention it. Do all Warden's get it or did the Player have to pick a Feat or Power to get it?

All Warden's get it, it's a class feature.

Warden's Grip, at will, Primal
Immediate Reaction, close burst 5.
Trigger: An enemy marked by you that is within 5 square of you makes an attack that does not include you as a target.
Target: The triggering enemy in burst.
Effect: You slide the target 1 square. The target is slowed and cannot shift until the end of it's turn.

Note - no to hit, no save. You yank and slow automatically. It's pretty sweet, IMO.

All Warden's get it, it's a class feature.

Warden's Grip, at will, Primal...

Great, this makes sense. So there is some sort of elemental connection that creates the shift/slow effect. The Warden does not get an actual attack. It also happens after the triggering attack, so the marked opponent could attack someone else but then pay the price.

Now if the Warden had an opponent within 5 squares that was marked and this opponent attack someone else, the attacker affect would be:
1- -2 to the attack as a general affect for being marked
2- If the Warden chooses, Slide 1 and slowed for Warden's Grip

If adjacent, would the Warden get an AoO? Only if they had another power similar to the fighters Combat Challenge I think. If they have another power that can cause an AoO, do they get the AoO AND the Wardens Grip affect? I think they would have to choose one interrupt or reaction per turn.

Minor points, but I am saying that just because they get to mark all adjacent opponents at once as a free action does not mean they get more than one immediate interrupt/reaction to use all those marks. The only thing that applies to everything is the -2 for attacking someone besides the marker.

No need to respond unless I am off base. Thanks.

EDIT: More clarification. The player can not wait for all the enemy attacks to occur and then after the last attack say, "As an Immediate Reaction, all my marked opponents that attacked someone else get hit by Warden's Grip. So all those guys who attacked someone else get to be slide/slowed." We resolve one opponent at a time and the Warden chooses whether to affect that ONE opponent. Once again, just because they get to mark all adjacent opponents at once as a free action does not mean they get more than one interrupt to use all those marks.

EDIT2: At least at lower levels. I don't know whether these powers escalate to hit more targets since it is a Burst power. I can not figure out why they call these powers "Close Burst 5" instead of "Range 5" unless they get better with level/feat/powers and affect more than one target.

I can not figure out why they call these powers "Close Burst 5" instead of "Range 5" unless they get better...

The power only hits one targets. The reason this, and several similar powers, are "one target within a Close Burst 5" is because a "Ranged 5" effect would provoke an OA, while this does not. Personally, I think it would have been easily to just have a 'Defensive' keyword for powers so they don't provoke, but this method mostly works, I suppose.

I can not figure out why they call these powers "Close Burst 5" instead of "Range 5" unless they get better...

The reason this, and several similar powers, are "one target within a Close Burst 5" is because a "Ranged 5" effect would provoke an OA, while this does not.

Thanks, I did not even think about that angle.

Duncan & Dragons wrote:

I can not figure out why they call these powers "Close Burst 5" instead of "Range 5" unless they get better...

The power only hits one targets. The reason this, and several similar powers, are "one target within a Close Burst 5" is because a "Ranged 5" effect would provoke an OA, while this does not. Personally, I think it would have been easily to just have a 'Defensive' keyword for powers so they don't provoke, but this method mostly works, I suppose.

Defensive keyword would definitely have been better - this feels like a kludge. Works but its not elegant.

Personally, I think it would have been easily to just have a 'Defensive' keyword for powers so they don't provoke, but this method mostly works, I suppose.

Defensive keyword would definitely have been better - this feels like a kludge. Works but its not elegant.

We don't have fighters in our group, so we don't deal with Combat Challenge much. A lot of Immediate Interrupts are are Burst or Teleport. So we have a habit, presumably bad, of assuming Immediate Interrupts/Reactions do not cause OA.

I could see how certain powers could cause a chain reaction of Immediate Interrupts interfering with each other across the battlefield. We mostly just look at what happens during your turn and making sure we do not provoke an OA. I should probably pay more attention.....

Matthew Koelbl wrote:

Personally, I think it would have been easily to just have a 'Defensive' keyword for powers so they don't provoke, but this method mostly works, I suppose.

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:

Defensive keyword would definitely have been better - this feels like a kludge. Works but its not elegant.

We don't have fighters in our group, so we don't deal with Combat Challenge much. A lot of Immediate Interrupts are are Burst or Teleport. So we have a habit, presumably bad, of assuming Immediate Interrupts/Reactions do not cause OA.

I could see how certain powers could cause a chain reaction of Immediate Interrupts interfering with each other across the battlefield. We mostly just look at what happens during your turn and making sure we do not provoke an OA. I should probably pay more attention.....

Well, one thing to make this even more complicated is to realize you can't take Opportunity Attacks on your own turn. So if you stand next to someone, and they use an Immediate Interrupt to shoot you in the chest with a bow, you don't get an OA.

So I think in practice, those effects often work out to not provoking - and I don't think there is any harm in that, since it avoids he chance for a chance reaction of effects!