There seems to be a strange trend in 4e races: many of them seek some form of abstract enlightenment, kind of like a Buddhist or Hindi style consciousness. The three examples I'm thinking of are devas (PH2), Kalashtar(Eberron PG), and now githzerai (PH3). Have other people noticed this?

There seems to be a strange trend in 4e races: many of them seek some form of abstract enlightenment, kind of like a Buddhist or Hindi style consciousness. The three examples I'm thinking of are devas (PH2), Kalashtar(Eberron PG), and now githzerai (PH3). Have other people noticed this?

No, Ive been to distracted by the trend that a lot of the races are either currently dead or in between being dead.

Ive been to distracted by the trend that a lot of the races are either currently dead or in between being dead.

There is the revenant. I guess you could argue that devas are in between being dead, but death is not necessarily their shtick. What others are there?

There seems to be a strange trend in 4e races: many of them seek some form of abstract enlightenment, kind of like a Buddhist or Hindi style consciousness. The three examples I'm thinking of are devas (PH2), Kalashtar(Eberron PG), and now githzerai (PH3). Have other people noticed this?

Warforged are kind of looking for deeper meaning to their existence as well. Maybe it's just a useful class-generic adventure/quest hook. Once you get tired of common looting & glory-seeking, your character gets more introspective about their adventuring (or they might've started out that way). PCs have always had a variety of worldviews at their disposal, so maybe they're just retconning the game canon to reflect that.

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:

Ive been to distracted by the trend that a lot of the races are either currently dead or in between being dead.

There is the revenant. I guess you could argue that devas are in between being dead, but death is not necessarily their shtick. What others are there?

These are the main ones I'm thinking of - seems a larger trend in my group as half the party is made up of these two races.

Whimsy Chris wrote:

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:

Ive been to distracted by the trend that a lot of the races are either currently dead or in between being dead.

There is the revenant. I guess you could argue that devas are in between being dead, but death is not necessarily their shtick. What others are there?

These are the main ones I'm thinking of - seems a larger trend in my group as half the party is made up of these two races.

I've noticed devas seem surprising popular, and yet they are supposedly rare in the game world. We've had to create stories just to explain why a certain group would have so many of them.

Devas are deceptively powerful. Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes and a couple resistances to energy are strong selling points for the race.

I've noticed devas seem surprising popular, and yet they are supposedly rare in the game world. We've had to create stories just to explain why a certain group would have so many of them.

I scratch my head when I see stuff like this. Why would having more than one deva in your group make them any less rare in the game world? Is it unrealistic that someone of a certain race or culture would seek out someone of the same race or culture for companionship? I know it says that a deva can live without ever meeting another one, but are you treating a statement like that as the exception or the rule?

Why would having more than one deva in your group make them any less rare in the game world?

When I read something like "can live without EVER meeting another of its kind", I see a lonely creature with a lonely existence (no matter how much it may yearn for companionship from another of its kind). Unique solely because of its rarity...

It should mean that there are only so many of them in existence (the PH II says "their numbers are so small" in fact). That to find two or more gathered in any one spot would be as likely as you or me hitting the lottery once, let alone twice within our lifetimes...

Rare is rare! I mean if I have one, you have, and that person over there has one, then the DM wants to use one during the course of the campaign, what was once rare, is now fairly commonplace...

-That One Digitalelf Fellow-

I tend to agree with Digitalelf. We are not talking about minorities, but creatures that most people would never see in their lifetime (at least that's how I interpret it). It cheapens their uniqueness a little if two or more exist in a single party without some form of explanation. Seeking others out of the same race is a perfectly legitimate reason, but that should, in my mind, be a story unto itself. And it should be recognized that any party with a deva would be considered unique, let alone a party with two devas.

As a DM, I'm not going to say, "No," to the races my players want to play, but I do want them to have a full understanding of their place in the world and how others might react to them, especially if they represent something unique or something that defies the stereotypes (such as a dwarf raised by elves).

When I read something like "can live without EVER meeting another of its kind", I see a lonely creature with a lonely existence (no matter how much it may yearn for companionship from another of its kind). Unique solely because of its rarity...

Ah, so you are treating that statement as the rule rather than the exception. I can see how that would colour your view. I see it the other way. Certainly if the only two devas you ever see in your game are the two in the group, then creating the sense that they are rare can be achieved. If there are two in your group and every other adventure has you running into devas, then that sense can be lost. Everyone is going to have different impressions of what is rare to them.

mouthymerc wrote:

Why would having more than one deva in your group make them any less rare in the game world?

When I read something like "can live without EVER meeting another of its kind", I see a lonely creature with a lonely existence (no matter how much it may yearn for companionship from another of its kind). Unique solely because of its rarity...

It should mean that there are only so many of them in existence (the PH II says "their numbers are so small" in fact). That to find two or more gathered in any one spot would be as likely as you or me hitting the lottery once, let alone twice within our lifetimes...

Rare is rare! I mean if I have one, you have, and that person over there has one, then the DM wants to use one during the course of the campaign, what was once rare, is now fairly commonplace...

Except that the PCs, by their nature, defy the laws of chance. Fate and destiny often seem oddly focused on them (simply due to the fact that, by virtue of being the player characters, they tend to be the active agents within any ongoing plot or storyline). There is a term used in the Wheel of Time series - ta'veren, representing a character that the story itself tends to revolve around, and coincidences become commonplace. It is an in-character justification for what truly does happen to many characters in fiction - in many ways, if a character wasn't at the heart of a web of interesting events, there often wouldn't be a reason to write a story about them.

So I don't find it problematic when the party just happens to consist of a bunch of rare or unique individuals, who happened to be thrown together at just the right time. Even less so with Deva, who already have this rather mystical background - between lives, they dream together with the world spirit, so it should be no surprise when the right ones happen to be reborn in the right circumstances to find themselves closely working together. They are still rare in the world at large - the fact they are brought together doesn't defy that, but honestly just provides more room to come up with an intriguing reason why, and tell an interesting story.

Sure, it might be a one-in-a-million chance for several Deva to find themselves suddenly brought together... but everyone knows a one-in-a-million chance crops up nine times out of ten...

There's also of course the option of is your Deva a Deva in both mechanics and flavor? I'm playing a Deva Shaman that for all roleplaying purposes is a human. The resistances and 'Memory of 1000 Lifetimes' are explained as bonus effects for being so tightly associated with the spirit companion. The Deva is particularly (IMHO) a very mechanically alluring race that begs to be reflavored as something else.

There's also of course the option of is your Deva a Deva in both mechanics and flavor? I'm playing a Deva Shaman that for all roleplaying purposes is a human. The resistances and 'Memory of 1000 Lifetimes' are explained as bonus effects for being so tightly associated with the spirit companion. The Deva is particularly (IMHO) a very mechanically alluring race that begs to be reflavored as something else.

That sounds pretty good. One of the reasons I like 4e is because it's so easy to change the fluff.

There's also of course the option of is your Deva a Deva in both mechanics and flavor? I'm playing a Deva Shaman that for all roleplaying purposes is a human. The resistances and 'Memory of 1000 Lifetimes' are explained as bonus effects for being so tightly associated with the spirit companion. The Deva is particularly (IMHO) a very mechanically alluring race that begs to be reflavored as something else.

I too plan to take Diva's and riff off them for my homebrew if I ever DM. The current back story is pretty good but I can think of something more suitable for my homebrew. One of the things I really like about the edition is just how easy it is to reskin things to better suite ones needs.