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Right here, from the WOTC boards: Ask the Realms Designers Thread
Ok. So they respond to consumer demands in the bet way possible at this time and the haters dump on them for it?
Haters?!?
Are we/they haters, or are you an unrepentant WotC fanboy? Or perhaps you are the hater, rudely disagreeing with all critics of 4/e and WotC.
Many of these so-called "haters" simply they don't accept everything WotC does with euphoric enthusiasm, nor do they agree with you on every point. There is a difference.
You, by contrast, have (again) chosen to portray their response in the best possible light. The "best possible" solution? This solution is superior to a free download?
IMO they've managed to turn a good thing into a thinly-veiled, extortive means to increase DDI subscriptions. There's room for praise here, but there's also room for criticism.
Haters?!?
I would not call the vast majority of posters in this thread haters. Certainly not you and not the OP (Cory) either.
Let's keep the tinfoil hat references for people that are truly bats#$@ crazy about 4e and not the reasonable folks.
Edit: Huh, thought the filter would catch that swear. Sorry Paizo.
Edit2: Wait...your post just appeared and you continue using the word extortion...I take back what I said about you not being a hater. (kidding about the hater label, but seriously, I just can't get that riled up about this issue.)
Half-orcs are not necessary to play D&D, or even necessary for a "traditional" feel to the game.
I'm prone to disagree. Half-orcs have been a part of D&D since the very beginning -- longer than some of the game's classes. They are so popular that the Keoland region in LG had a fairly large meta-org only for half-orcs.
You may not like half-orcs, but they have arguably been a BIG part of the game.
BTW, certain phrases really don't strengthen your arguments. In fact, they tend to make you sound unreasonable. Examples include:
- "Its pretty stupid to assume..."
- "but for some reason you get upset..."
- "...so please find something else to whine about."
- "As for the tin-foil delusion..."
- "As for Mac III's strange epiphany..."
- "The only real issue that I can find in this sea of irrational hatred..."
- "...then griping about it really doesnt count"
If it was free, I would applaud and respect them for it. Requiring a DDI subscription for content that should be in the PHB is in no way the best way possible to make this content available to their customers.Ok. So they respond to consumer demands in the bet way possible at this time and the haters dump on them for it?Right here, from the WOTC boards:
If the PHB is going to the typsetter tomorrow then putting it up on the DDI is the best way for them at this point.
It appears to me lately that what we have on these boards is that a small group of 4ed supporters who feel free to lambaste or ridicule anti-4ed posters, and yet react with outrage when the same treatment is turned onto them.
I see the opposite (that there is a small group of 4ed haters that just want to be poisonous on any topic relating to 4e), but I do agree that Antioch would be well served in cutting back on the generalizations and characterizations that have been peppering his posts thus far. There are a number of reasonable posters on the boards that are not 4e fans and are willing to engage in a dialogue. That being said, the best medicine for those seeking to provoke a reaction is, as always, ignoring them.
Edit: Hmmm...looks like some posts went away...
For ease of access, here is the text.
Well, they're not in the Player's Handbook. I'd hope to have them available on DDi pretty soon after the PH hits, though, since players out there with half-orc characters are going to want to be able to convert or re-create their character concept, as the case may be.
Half-orcs are a bit tricky, because they imply a very ugly backstory that we frankly don't want to dwell on very much. I think it's possible to posit a better backstory, like "long ago a god of evil mixed the races of orcs and humans, and to this day atavistic throwbacks are born to each from time to time." We'll see where we get to on that score when we get serious about updating the half-orc. So far we've just had other fish to fry first.
Oh, and regardless of what core D&D does with half-orcs, they've got to be in the Realms at least as a NPC race (or "playable monster" race); they've been in Faerun in 3e and earlier editions, and we wouldn't retcon them out of existence.
[Enter rant mode]
Now, what irrates me is the suggestion that the half-orc is being left out because they may be the result of rape. While this may not be the case, WOTC has commented on it before. Now, I can think of only one 2e product that hinted at that reason (The Savage Frontier for the Forgotten Realms) and in the case of Eberron, it is completely off base (they are a major part of a dragonmarked house). On top of this,
they are revamping the tiefling as a race that is the result of trafficking with devils. I find the suggestion, given D&D's history, that the backstory of the half-orc race is more touchy than that of the teifling.
I may be off base. I lived through the D&D devil worship mess (including being made to watch Mazes and Monsters) and find that the idea of not wanting to deal with half-orcs because of their touchy origins while having a race that is the result of macking pacts with devils a bit hypocritical.
[/Exit rant mode]
Ok, I might be off base. If I am, I apologize.
I agree. It's not cool to be a savage half-human race because some of them may have bee the result of orcs forcing themselves on human females, but it's cool to be a race of fiendish humanoids that did and still are selling their souls to devils (tiefling warlock with infernal pact, and tiefling paladin of Asmodeous, I'm looking at you.)
Actually, the issue does rile me up. Mostly, it's exasperation at WotC's continued inability to mollify angry customers.
Your posts keep hiding from me today, but I can get behind this sentiment. It's only a matter of time before Kevin Federline ends up with the D&D IP given how well WotC is handling its PR...
I agree. It's not cool to be a savage half-human race because some of them may have bee the result of orcs forcing themselves on human females, but it's cool to be a race of fiendish humanoids that did and still are selling their souls to devils (tiefling warlock with infernal pact, and tiefling paladin of Asmodeous, I'm looking at you.)
One implies consent. The other does not.
Fairly big difference to me at least.
If it was free, I would applaud and respect them for it. Requiring a DDI subscription for content that should be in the PHB is in no way the best way possible to make this content available to their customers.
If the PHB is going to the typsetter tomorrow then putting it up on the DDI is the best way for them at this point.
What does that have to do with this discussion? The PHB isn't going to print tomorrow, and they are not putting it on the (currently free) DDI tomorrow.
Several people have expressed the opinion that posting a free, online half-orc would be best. Are you disagreeing with this claim, or are you ignoring it so that you can continue arguing?
To be clear -- are you saying a free download is not the best solution?
[Enter rant mode]Now, what irrates me is the suggestion that the half-orc is being left out because they may be the result of rape. While this may not be the case, WOTC has commented on it before. Now, I can think of only one 2e product that hinted at that reason (The Savage Frontier for the Forgotten Realms) and in the case of Eberron, it is completely off base (they are a major part of a dragonmarked house). On top of this,
they are revamping the tiefling as a race that is the result of trafficking with devils. I find the suggestion, given D&D's history, that the backstory of the half-orc race is more touchy than that of the teifling.I may be off base. I lived through the D&D devil worship mess (including being made to watch Mazes and Monsters) and find that the idea of not wanting to deal with half-orcs because of their touchy origins while having a race that is the result of macking pacts with devils a bit hypocritical.
[/Exit rant mode]
Ok, I might be off base. If I am, I...
I liked Mazes and Monsters...
Your posts keep hiding from me today, but I can get behind this sentiment. It's only a matter of time before Kevin Federline ends up with the D&D IP given how well WotC is handling its PR...
Actually, the issue does rile me up. Mostly, it's exasperation at WotC's continued inability to mollify angry customers.
LOL
Ok, Sebastian, that was good.
Man, you don't need to rape an orc chick if you want some. I mean sure, humans are packing a little less down below if you know what I mean, but us human dudes are well versed in the language of love and sometimes an orc broad wants a little wine and some lies instead of getting clubbed and dragged back to a cave.
One implies consent. The other does not.
Fairly big difference to me at least.
While I agree, non-consent is not the case with all half-orcs.
I ran a homebrewed campaign in 2e that included a barbarian tribe that was mixed human, orc, and half-orc.
For that matter, you could just as easily get a half-elf through force, but that would depend on the player wanting to develop that kind of character background.
Man, you don't need to rape an orc chick if you want some. I mean sure, humans are packing a little less down below if you know what I mean, but us human dudes are well versed in the language of love and sometimes an orc broad wants a little wine and some lies instead of getting clubbed and dragged back to a cave.
My human cleric's 1/2 orc girlfriend got killed in Aubrey's Eberron campaign. (sniff)
Man, you don't need to rape an orc chick if you want some. I mean sure, humans are packing a little less down below if you know what I mean, but us human dudes are well versed in the language of love and sometimes an orc broad wants a little wine and some lies instead of getting clubbed and dragged back to a cave.My human cleric's 1/2 orc girlfriend got killed in Aubrey's Eberron campaign. (sniff)
I heard it was by your hot, beardless, dwarven, woman mistress.
I'm really not sure why people think that the half-orc needs to be in the PH. It wasn't in 2E (nor previously to the best of my knowledge). It was one of those 3E things to me, like the sorceror, barbarian and monk. Are they cool? Sure. Are they necessary? Not really.
If the 4E PH has different "stuff" than 3E, should we be surprised? My feeling is a huge "not really".
I don't agree with the way 4E is being marketed, mostly due to the lack of "really great stuff" we're seeing. Most of the changes seem to be changes for the sake of change, rather than improvements. Adding in things are getting the public riled up (see half-orcs and gnomes) seems like a good idea, not a bad one.
Just my 2 cents.
I'm really not sure why people think that the half-orc needs to be in the PH. It wasn't in 2E (nor previously to the best of my knowledge). It was one of those 3E things to me, like the sorceror, barbarian and monk.
Half-orcs, monks& barbarians all predate 3e.
Half-orcs and monks are in the AD&D PHB.
I agree. It's not cool to be a savage half-human race because some of them may have bee the result of orcs forcing themselves on human females, but it's cool to be a race of fiendish humanoids that did and still are selling their souls to devils (tiefling warlock with infernal pact, and tiefling paladin of Asmodeous, I'm looking at you.)One implies consent. The other does not.
Fairly big difference to me at least.
Exactly, the half-orc had no say in his or her parentage. Whereas tiefling warlocks willingly sell their souls for power. The half-orc can rise above their heritage, while the tiefling is making a deal with the devil for personal gain. Which one is more evil? Which one is more fitting for a heroic PC? Which one is less likely to harm the reputation of the game, and earn the ire of misinformed fanatics? Plus, who says that half-orcs have to be a product of rape? They aren't in Eberron, and they don't have to be in core D&D either. This is a lame excuse for their own laziness. How hard is to say that in some wilderness areas humans and orcs interbreed?
I agree. It's not cool to be a savage half-human race because some of them may have bee the result of orcs forcing themselves on human females, but it's cool to be a race of fiendish humanoids that did and still are selling their souls to devils (tiefling warlock with infernal pact, and tiefling paladin of Asmodeous, I'm looking at you.)
Perhaps the designers just didn't like the half-orc?
Nah, they wouldn't lie to us... would they?
Man, like,....my dad's so weird.Yah. That T-shirt that says "Half-Orc. Because charisma doesn't matter" isn't gonna make any sense now.How are they finta make half orcs? Don't they need to have -2 to charisma, much less int and now all them races get nothing but bonuses?
My wife, son, and I are walking through a shopping mall and a guy comes by wearing that shirt. My son points at the shirt and says "Mom, that's what a half-orc looks like". My wife thinks he's pointing at the man and says "TB it's not polite to point!!".
hehehe
I don't see how this is different from when new content first appeared in Dragon and was later re-published in book form.Dragon magazine had other useful content and was available in the wonderful lost format that is print.
By leaving out classic elements and then including those elements as DDI material, it seems to me that WotC is intentionally trying to dangle a carrot in front of the reluctant many who don't want to subscribe to DDI BUT want classic content that in their 4th edition games.
You don't need DDI but, if you want the gnome, half-orc, druid, etc that was intentionally left out of the PHB, you'll want it more than you otherwise would.
WotC owes me nothing because they have lost me and the dozen guys I game with as customers because they have made choices that have alienated us. I've heard the same story from the gamers my brother knows and/or games with and, I suspect, that there will be more people walking away from D&D than WotC expected.
My thoughts exactly. A lot of the customers at my local hobby shop are already telling the owner they're not bothering with 4th Edition, so he shouldn't really bother shelving it. The owner likes few of what 4E is offering, hates what they did to the Forgotten Realms, and hates how WotC is marketing the game. If anything, he'll only purchase the 3 core books for himself and his workers to look over and he'll special order if anyone really is serious about 4E. But no one is, heck, many are still interested in what 3.5E books he has on the shelves (I've helped him sell quite a few by suggesting to the customers there what is best to purchase).
Allow me to make things clear to those who can't seem to understand why people are angry with the half-orc idea WotC is doing.
First off, it's bad enough so much lore and tradition is being thrown out the window in order to make the game play in a manner that befits World of Warcraft gamers. There was nothing wrong with 3rd Edition---let me rephrase that, there was nothing wrong with DUNGEONS&DRAGONS itself for them to warp it into what it's becoming.
Bottomline, WotC is milking D&D. No half-orcs in the PHB, but pay $10 fee and you can get access to it online. What if you don't have the Internet? What if you're totally against poking your credit card information online? What if you don't even freaking know about DDI in the first place? Seriously, you think THAT logo they have on the back of the books will really catch anyone's attention, especially the "target audience" they want to attract? The same audience that doesn't care about reading, math, and too many rules? They just want to jump into a game, have fun, jump out and move on to something newer?
Good luck, WotC. You'll need it.
The half-orc is a part of D&D mythology, whether introduced as a race or a monster. What if you really want to get into 4th Edition, and what if you really need the half-orc in your games, not for character or NPC creation, but for storyline as well? What do you tell your PCs?
"Well, until PHB 2 arrives next year, you guys won't bet bumping into or making any half-orcs...they'll just suddenly phase in when I get their stats. But they're still in my world!"
Again, consistency. Which 4th Edition has NONE of.
As I have quoted a million times before: You can port your 1E to 2E or 3E, you can easily port your 2E to 3E, you can port it all just as easily to 3.5E (with a hell of a lot cleaner and extra options, too boot!), but you can NEVER port anything over to 4th Edition thanks to its destruction of original designs, original lore, original history, original tradition, and, well, the sheer ORIGINALITY of D&D as a whole.
It's gone. Kiss your old games goodbye, according to WotC, you wasted your time on such crappy editions and 4E will be the best ever, forever and ever, they say.
Until they announce 5th Edition in about 5 years, of course. ;)
Ok. So they respond to consumer demands in the bet way possible at this time and the haters dump on them for it?Right here, from the WOTC boards:
Its mainly because the minority here that hates 4th Edition so much before even seeing the product arent catering to THEM. Their group (or even that singular person). In my opinion, they probably gathered some data from talking with people, doing surveys, browsing the messageboards, etc, to get a general idea of what was most liked, most hated, and stuff that could use some work.
could you do us all a favor and stop with the inflammatory posts? It wouldn't be ok for me to post that there is a minority here who thinks Wotc eats lead and passes gold. Especially posters whose names may resemble the holy handgrenade of _______ ..... (wouldn't that be rude? luckily, I would never make such an assertion.)
It appears to me lately that what we have on these boards is that a small group of 4ed supporters who feel free to lambaste or ridicule anti-4ed posters, and yet react with outrage when the same treatment is turned onto them.
Antioch, you need to understand that many of us that oppose 4ed may post in a fashion that you dislike, but that does not imply, less knowledge, less intellect, or less right to state our opinion.
Lets see, I didnt imply that Wizards can turn lead to gold through...any means, I dont know what my name has to do with anything (but I do know that it didnt originate from a Monty Python production), and the only time I think implied a stupid instance was about not getting half-orc stats for free (not that the poster was stupid, just that the idea was).
Of course, I also have the right to state my own opinions. :-D
you do work Wotc...;)Razz,
Any serious shop owner that does not stock 4E is going to miss out on a serious chunck of sales - especially given the details on the OGL.
Nah. But I was one of the stunned grognards that watched 2E sell out in with record sales. I watched 3E move rapidly out the door - this time I was buying into it.
4E will sell no matter what any of us think or feel about it.
That has yet to happen. Who knows? But modules that are $29.99 a pop are not going to fly off the shelf, when X-box and Playstations(Games) prices continue to drop, not to many kids/teenagers are rakin in big bucks to slap down on a book with very little replay value.4E will sell no matter what any of us think or feel about it.
Kids are pretty free with mommy and daddy's money.