Kruelaid wrote:

Nobody is giving offense. What gives?

Offense is not in the eye of the giver.

True. On a related note, I think that Beholder wants its eyes back...

Offense is not in the eye of the giver.

getting Kruels "offense" in your eye is not something I would admit....

Mactaka wrote:

So..anyone know how Goodman Games is doing this?

Because it's pretty obvious they're not DOING the GSL?

Right. But I guess a better question is how are they allowed to do this? Are they defying the GSL/WotC or do they have their own agreement? And why would there be such hush-hush about it? Wouldn't WotC want to do this and show other 3PPS that its authors can make their own world their own way?

Offense is not in the eye of the giver.

getting Kruels "offense" in your eye is not something I would admit....

Now I can go to work.

LMAO out the door.

Right. But I guess a better question is how are they allowed to do this? Are they defying the GSL/WotC or do they have their own agreement? And why would there be such hush-hush about it? Wouldn't WotC want to do this and show other 3PPS that its authors can make their own world their own way?

WOTC isn't going to advertise to 3PP that you can quite easily skirt the GSL, and Goodman isn't going to advertise to WOTC HOW they're skirting the GSL before release...

Mactaka wrote:

Right. But I guess a better question is how are they allowed to do this? Are they defying the GSL/WotC or do they have their own agreement? And why would there be such hush-hush about it? Wouldn't WotC want to do this and show other 3PPS that its authors can make their own world their own way?

WOTC isn't going to advertise to 3PP that you can quite easily skirt the GSL, and Goodman isn't going to advertise to WOTC HOW they're skirting the GSL before release...

Why not?

I just went through the newly announced products that have come through our distributor in the last few days, and noticed a couple of other Goodman products:

Character Codex

DM Campaign Record

Interestingly, the solicitation text for the DM Campaign Record includes the term "Dungeon Master."

Interestingly, the solicitation text for the DM Campaign Record includes the term "Dungeon Master."

That's because the trademarked 'Dungeon Master' is the animated series character... (not sure why people missed that, it's right there on the trademark search...)

Vic Wertz wrote:

Interestingly, the solicitation text for the DM Campaign Record includes the term "Dungeon Master."

That's because the trademarked 'Dungeon Master' is the animated series character... (not sure why people missed that, it's right there on the trademark search...)

You're looking at the wrong trademark entry.

Word Mark DUNGEON MASTER
Goods and Services IC 028. US 022. G & S: fantasy role-playing games and board games, and game accessories; namely, booklets containing role-playing game scenarios, and computer game programs. FIRST USE: 19921200. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19921200
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 74264094
Filing Date April 9, 1992
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition August 25, 1992
Registration Number 1815460
Registration Date January 4, 1994
Owner (REGISTRANT) TSR, Inc. CORPORATION WISCONSIN 1801 Lind Avenue SE Renton WASHINGTON 98057
(LAST LISTED OWNER) WIZARDS OF THE COAST, INC. CORPORATION WASHINGTON 1801 LIND AVENUE SW RENTON WASHINGTON 98055

Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20040223.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20040223
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

Really seems odd that that trademark would be allowed.. but, I guess, no one else really uses dungeons as the key focus of their games.

For those who are interested I got permission to post this excerpt from a Points of Light map.

center of the Southland Map

Don't know if this has been posted yet (didn't see it upthread) but:

The Rouse wrote:

We are allowing the publishers that take advantage of the designer kit to distribute promotional (not for sale) products prior to Aug 1 (as in the case for free RPG Day).

It's irrelevant. Sure, the GSL does allow for "promotional (not for sale) products prior to Aug 1." —

Without limiting the foregoing, Licensee may produce, publish, and distribute (a) marketing and promotional materials for Licensed Products, and (b) non-commercial Licensed Products (i.e. free), in accordance with the terms of this License prior to October 1, 2008.

— but the Dungeon Crawl Classics are not no-charge promotional items, they're $10.99 apiece. (See http://www.goodman-games.com/5052preview.html , http://www.goodman-games.com/5053preview.html , http://www.goodman-games.com/5054preview.html ).

So we're still stuck with three possibilities:

1. Goodman Games is publishing under a private, non-GSL license from Wizards of the Coast.
   
2. Goodman Games is publishing without a license, relying on Fair Use and other aspects of copyright law.
   
3. Goodman Games is publishing under the Open Game License, having derived 4e-compatible mechanics from the 3.x material released under the OGL.

-Brian R. James said that Goodman Games made a seperate License with WotC.

18DELTA

As someone else posted, Brian R James is not an employee of Goodman, so we wonder if that's also speculation or if he actually has a source.

As someone else posted, Brian R James is not an employee of Goodman, so we wonder if that's also speculation or if he actually has a source.

That's not really confirmation. In having talked to WotC, they explicitly said that they are absolutely not interested in making seperate GSL deals. Granted, they may have done this BEFORE hand, sure, but if Goodman and WotC actually had a deal going... wouldn't they publicize it a bit?

Karui Kage wrote:

As someone else posted, Brian R James is not an employee of Goodman, so we wonder if that's also speculation or if he actually has a source.

That's not really confirmation. In having talked to WotC, they explicitly said that they are absolutely not interested in making seperate GSL deals. Granted, they may have done this BEFORE hand, sure, but if Goodman and WotC actually had a deal going... wouldn't they publicize it a bit?

That was my thought when our group talked about it last night. (It wasn't a DnD night, but rather a boardgame night, so we had a lot of "off-topic" discussion)

If it was a seperate negotiated agreement, why wouldn't they say so? Even if Wizards didn't care (unlikly IMHO), why wouldn't Goodman Games be splashing it all over the web that they are the first 3PP to put out officially licensed 4E material?

Unless of course they are <b>in negotiations</b> and Goodman Games just jumped the gun in announcing these, and are assuming that the seperate licensing deal will be in place by Gencon. But that is problematic on multiple levels.

Personally, I think they are just avoiding the GSL as outlined by others above.

Karui Kage wrote:

As someone else posted, Brian R James is not an employee of Goodman, so we wonder if that's also speculation or if he actually has a source.

That's not really confirmation. In having talked to WotC, they explicitly said that they are absolutely not interested in making seperate GSL deals. Granted, they may have done this BEFORE hand, sure, but if Goodman and WotC actually had a deal going... wouldn't they publicize it a bit?

Exactly. They need good PR with the community right now, and advertising/announcing their willingness to make separate agreements would be a positive step, unless neither Goodman nor WotC cares.

So we're still stuck with three possibilities:

1. Goodman Games is publishing under a private, non-GSL license from Wizards of the Coast.
   
2. Goodman Games is publishing without a license, relying on Fair Use and other aspects of copyright law.
   
3. Goodman Games is publishing under the Open Game License, having derived 4e-compatible mechanics from the 3.x material released under the OGL.

My suspicion given the limited evidence:

4. Goodman is publishing under the GSL, but managed to get the October 1 start date waived.

My suspicion given the limited evidence:

4. Goodman is publishing under the GSL, but managed to get the October 1 start date waived.

I hope not, for their sake. I'd hate to see Aeryth lost to a GSL revocation.

Also, it makes me wonder, there is a DCC Freeport so I hope it doesn't daisy chain to Green Ronin for example.

*goes off to buy Buccaneers of freeport.

My suspicion given the limited evidence:

4. Goodman is publishing under the GSL, but managed to get the October 1 start date waived.

I thought about that, but it would mean they couldn't do any more of the Dungeon Crawl Classics CD collections, would have to pull their DCC PDFs from sale, and could never do another 3.x Dungeon Crawl Classic.

Now, maybe all that's minor enough to them that they would, but I'd generally expect that they'd announce time was running out to buy 3e DCC PDFs, to goose the sales figures a bit before having to withdraw them.

Still, yeah, it's possible.

vance wrote:

Karui Kage wrote:

As someone else posted, Brian R James is not an employee of Goodman, so we wonder if that's also speculation or if he actually has a source.

That's not really confirmation. In having talked to WotC, they explicitly said that they are absolutely not interested in making seperate GSL deals. Granted, they may have done this BEFORE hand, sure, but if Goodman and WotC actually had a deal going... wouldn't they publicize it a bit?

Exactly. They need good PR with the community right now, and advertising/announcing their willingness to make separate agreements would be a positive step, unless neither Goodman nor WotC cares.

Or, perhaps, WotC is only willing to negotiate separate licenses with the big guys, and want the smaller publishers to contend with the GSL? If that's case, it would make sense to not make such separe agreements public.

Or, perhaps, WotC is only willing to negotiate separate licenses with the big guys, and want the smaller publishers to contend with the GSL? If that's case, it would make sense to not make such separe agreements public.

Not necessarily. They could use a lot in the way of PR points, and letting 3PP fans know their favorite publishers could convert, safely, to 4E would be a huge step in the right direction for some. So I'm not sure they would keep something like this cloak and dagger like when its so easy to leak...

Vic Wertz wrote:

My suspicion given the limited evidence:

4. Goodman is publishing under the GSL, but managed to get the October 1 start date waived.

I hope not, for their sake. I'd hate to see Aeryth lost to a GSL revocation.

Also, it makes me wonder, there is a DCC Freeport so I hope it doesn't daisy chain to Green Ronin for example.

*goes off to buy Buccaneers of freeport.

It looks like nothing could daisy-chain to Green Ronin unless Green Ronin also accepts the GSL. Of course, since I'm not even a lawyer, much less a judge, my opinion doesn't necessarily mean anything, but that's what it looks like just parsing Section 6.2.

Vic Wertz wrote:

My suspicion given the limited evidence:

4. Goodman is publishing under the GSL, but managed to get the October 1 start date waived.

I thought about that, but it would mean they couldn't do any more of the Dungeon Crawl Classics CD collections, would have to pull their DCC PDFs from sale, and could never do another 3.x Dungeon Crawl Classic.

Now, maybe all that's minor enough to them that they would, but I'd generally expect that they'd announce time was running out to buy 3e DCC PDFs, to goose the sales figures a bit before having to withdraw them.

Still, yeah, it's possible.

It really depends on what their sales figures have been for the last six months. A lot of 3PPs have been having a really tough time of it. Possibly they figured they needed to create some positive revenue and they needed to do it now. At the moment 4E players are a tad short of adventures to actually play. That will change of course but there is a potential revenue stream to be made if one is fairly quick about it.

It really depends on what their sales figures have been for the last six months. A lot of 3PPs have been having a really tough time of it. Possibly they figured they needed to create some positive revenue and they needed to do it now. At the moment 4E players are a tad short of adventures to actually play. That will change of course but there is a potential revenue stream to be made if one is fairly quick about it.

Quite reasonable. But if they've been hurting and they're going GSL, then I'd really be expecting them to be touting that the 3.x DCC PDFs were going away in August, saying "Hurry up and buy before it's too late!" and try to drive a few extra sales that way.

(Yeah, I'm hanging my "it's not just the GSL with a date waiver" theory on a pretty thin thread . . . I mean, maybe Wizards just isn't allowing them to do such a thing since it would tip the hand that it was GSL-with-waiver.)

Crikey, I wish someone at Goodman Games would explain. All this conjecture makes me crazy.

Crikey, I wish someone at Goodman Games would explain. All this conjecture makes me crazy.

You are already Crazy..... So would it be Crazier?...More Crazy?..Crazylicious?

Kruelaid wrote:

Crikey, I wish someone at Goodman Games would explain. All this conjecture makes me crazy.

You are already Crazy..... So would it be Crazier?...More Crazy?..Crazylicious?

I think "Driving me sane" is still the best version.

Crikey, I wish someone at Goodman Games would explain. All this conjecture makes me crazy.

But do you see how many posts are being generated on how many sites discussing Goodman Games' upcoming products? The longer they leave it unanswered, the more people will keep talking about their products.

I wouldn't be surprised if they leave it hanging all the way until some fan cracks one of them open at Gen Con. It may be frustrating, but in such a way that makes us eager to get our hands on the books and see what is up for ourselves.

WotC should take notes because this is excellent marketing.

But do you see how many posts are being generated on how many sites discussing Goodman Games' upcoming products? The longer they leave it unanswered, the more people will keep talking about their products.

I wouldn't be surprised if they leave it hanging all the way until some fan cracks one of them open at Gen Con....

OMG! NOOOOoooooooooooooo!

Evil!

Kruelaid wrote:

Crikey, I wish someone at Goodman Games would explain. All this conjecture makes me crazy.

But do you see how many posts are being generated on how many sites discussing Goodman Games' upcoming products? The longer they leave it unanswered, the more people will keep talking about their products.

I wouldn't be surprised if they leave it hanging all the way until some fan cracks one of them open at Gen Con. It may be frustrating, but in such a way that makes us eager to get our hands on the books and see what is up for ourselves.

WotC should take notes because this is excellent marketing.

I thought one of the complaints about WotC's marketing was we didn't know enough apart from "It'll be really, really cool" for too long. Seems Goodman are just using the same tactic but getting the amount of release right.

Heck, they're not even saying "it's really really cool."

Heck, they're not even saying "it's really really cool."

I think we're supposed to take that as a given. ;-)

I thought one of the complaints about WotC's marketing was we didn't know enough apart from "It'll be really, really cool" for too long. Seems Goodman are just using the same tactic but getting the amount of release right.

I guess here the information they are withholding is the license under which they are publishing. I know those of us on this thread are awful eager to find out the truth, but looking at it in perspective, I'd imagine it's largely irrelevant to most gamers (myself included). They just want cool 4e adventures. The legal status of it is a side question.

I don't know, maybe it's just WotC's track history catching up with them, and Goodman Games is just better positioned to take advantage of keeping their mouths shut. If there was the belief that Goodman might not have the books ready on time and it's all just vaporware right now, then, yeah a lack of information could burn them. But I think most people believe that when they get to Gen Con and go to the Goodman Games booth, there will be actual physical books there waiting for them.

With the DDI and GSL, WotC's "real soon" and "We can't show you anything more than the same screenshots we showed you last summer, but it's going to awesome!" and constantly shifting deadlines were a train wreck.

So, maybe I should retract my statement that WotC should take notes. It is a similar tactic, but Goodman Games doesn't have as much distrust built up among fans as WotC has.

My guess: Goodman saying nothing is not a strategy by Goodman, but a requirement by Wizards.

(Again, I know nothing—merely speculating based on what little public info there is.)

And, yep, looks like an early-release GSL. RPGNow and e23 have announced half-off sales on the Dungeon Crawl Classics before they're discontinued forever . . .

We will also be offering the 50% off sale here on paizo.com.

-Lisa

PS: Btw, information posted on a retailer only board I am a member of makes me believe that Goodman is NOT publishing under the GSL, though I don't have 100% proof of this yet (in other words, nothing directly from Goodman Games). Not sure why he is selling off his 3e products if he isn't doing the GSL, but perhaps Goodman wants to make it clear which side of the edition wars he is coming out on and not leaving any ambiguity? In any case, interesting times.

Maybe it is a clever marketing strategy?

Damn you goodman for making me spend money!!!!

Lisa, is this for goodman PDFs or dead tree as well

Maybe it is a clever marketing strategy?

Show of good faith for eventual GSL compliance?

Tharen the Damned wrote:

Maybe it is a clever marketing strategy?

Show of good faith for eventual GSL compliance?

Except the content of GG's stuff, even the Free RPG offering, makes sexual and other dark and risque' references (ie prostitution, drug use, dark rites involving sexuality) that would be against the GSL. It's very much implied adult contents even in the preview.

David Marks wrote:

Tharen the Damned wrote:

Maybe it is a clever marketing strategy?

Show of good faith for eventual GSL compliance?

Except the content of GG's stuff, even the Free RPG offering, makes sexual and other dark and risque' references (ie prostitution, drug use, dark rites involving sexuality) that would be against the GSL. It's very much implied adult contents even in the preview.

Hrms. My first thought was that GG have hammered out some kind of private license, so maybe I was right after all? That seems too implausible though! :P

Damn you goodman for making me spend money!!!!

Lisa, is this for goodman PDFs or dead tree as well

Just the PDFs.

-Lisa

Damn you goodman for making me spend money!!!!

Lisa, is this for goodman PDFs or dead tree as well

Beware the Vashta Nerada

Beware the Vashta Nerada

Who turned out the lights?

We will also be offering the 50% off sale here on paizo.com.

-Lisa

PS: Btw, information posted on a retailer only board I am a member of makes me believe that Goodman is NOT publishing under the GSL, though I don't have 100% proof of this yet (in other words, nothing directly from Goodman Games). Not sure why he is selling off his 3e products if he isn't doing the GSL, but perhaps Goodman wants to make it clear which side of the edition wars he is coming out on and not leaving any ambiguity? In any case, interesting times.

Was trying to figure out why I was not seeing the Discount... when I saw... We Will.... not We Are..... DOH!!!!

Who turned out the lights?

"Hey, who turned out the lights...

Hey who turned out the lights..."

Creeeeeeepy episode. That line is right up there with "Are you my mummy?"

Matthew Morris wrote:

Damn you goodman for making me spend money!!!!

Lisa, is this for goodman PDFs or dead tree as well

Just the PDFs.

-Lisa

Could you offer them in bundles? There are 52 of the things and a bundle discount or two would be cool.... :)

Lisa Stevens wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

Damn you goodman for making me spend money!!!!

Lisa, is this for goodman PDFs or dead tree as well

Just the PDFs.

-Lisa

Could you offer them in bundles? There are 52 of the things and a bundle discount or two would be cool.... :)

I don't think Joseph Goodman is inclined to give bigger discounts than the 50% he is already going to be discounting them! :)

-Lisa

Seems to me that the 3X sale is more an acknowledgement that the shelf needs clearin' more than a true 'we're on THIS side of the edition war', really. Why waste valuable time and effort supporting things which are no longer selling (because, really, everyone who would want them likely HAS them) when you have a new product line to launch?