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But the truth is, it isn't just a game. All of my close friends are gamers. I met my wife playing D&D. My sister and brother-in-law are both gamers, and my niece and nephew are learning how to play. The game that we play is an integral part of the social aspect of our lives. It has kept us close and in contact for decades. It is as much a part of my life as my family, my job or my faith.
Oh, I see, if you view the game as some sort of tribal value that's integral to your identity, that's totally different. Zealotry from such groups is entirely acceptable and appropriate. One thought: don't be afraid to resort to violence to defend your values. Clearly those who do not appreciate the game in the exact same manner as you are heretics and should be opposed with any and all means possible.
But the truth is, it isn't just a game. All of my close friends are gamers. I met my wife playing D&D. My sister and brother-in-law are both gamers, and my niece and nephew are learning how to play. The game that we play is an integral part of the social aspect of our lives. It has kept us close and in contact for decades. It is as much a part of my life as my family, my job or my faith.
Oh, I see, if you view the game as some sort of tribal value that's integral to your identity, that's totally different. Zealotry from such groups is entirely acceptable and appropriate. One thought: don't be afraid to resort to violence to defend your values. Clearly those who do not appreciate the game in the exact same manner as you are heretics and should be opposed with any and all means possible.
Has anyone started a 'The Best of Sebastian' thread? We really need to hyper-link this stuff for posterity.
But the truth is, it isn't just a game. All of my close friends are gamers. I met my wife playing D&D. My sister and brother-in-law are both gamers, and my niece and nephew are learning how to play. The game that we play is an integral part of the social aspect of our lives. It has kept us close and in contact for decades. It is as much a part of my life as my family, my job or my faith.Oh, I see, if you view the game as some sort of tribal value that's integral to your identity, that's totally different. Zealotry from such groups is entirely acceptable and appropriate. One thought: don't be afraid to resort to violence to defend your values. Clearly those who do not appreciate the game in the exact same manner as you are heretics and should be opposed with any and all means possible.
See I am not the only one.
Shonen Knife rules!
Sugar sugar candy in my mouth.
Stay home watch TV.A cute boy singer is singing like a man.
I have nothing to do.
It's very very hot outside.
I'm lazy in my room.
I have to water the cactus on the porch. 'Cos it needs a drink.
Thinking about these kinds of things I suddenly wanted to eat some cookies and dip them in milk.
I wanna go to the cookie shop.
Cookie day, cookie day, it's a beautiful cookie day.
Cookie day, cookie day, it's a beautiful cookie day.
I have a postcard of a big buffalo.
I bought it during the tour.
I missed a chance to send it to you. Back in North Dakota.
There're many pretty things in life.
Take it easy. Let it be.
I promise to send it next time to you.
Really means a lot to me.
Thinking about these kinds of things I suddenly wanted to eat some cookies and dip them in milk.
I wanna go to the cookie shop.
Cookie day, cookie day, it's a beautiful cookie day.
Cookie day, cookie day, it's a beautiful cookie day.
Cookie day, cookie day, it's a beautiful cookie day.
Cookie day, cookie day, it's a beautiful cookie day.
Cookie day, cookie day, oh yeah.
Patrick Curtin
(Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Roleplaying Game, Campaign Setting, Companion, Battles Case Subscriber)
Tharen the Damned
(Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber)
Oh, I see, if you view the game as some sort of tribal value that's integral to your identity, that's totally different. Zealotry from such groups is entirely acceptable and appropriate. One thought: don't be afraid to resort to violence to defend your values. Clearly those who do not appreciate the game in the exact same manner as you are heretics and should be opposed with any and all means possible.
Why do I have to think about this scene of a Mel Brook's Filme where he is an Inquistor and dances and sings the inquisition song?
But the truth is, it isn't just a game. All of my close friends are gamers. I met my wife playing D&D. My sister and brother-in-law are both gamers, and my niece and nephew are learning how to play. The game that we play is an integral part of the social aspect of our lives. It has kept us close and in contact for decades. It is as much a part of my life as my family, my job or my faith.
I love this post, because that totally represents me as well. 100%.
I really find it dismissive at least, insulting at worse, when people keep repeating the "it's just a game" mantra. That's the case for you? Great! But don't talk to me about what's important and not important in my life. This hobby is important in my life... because of what blackdragon said, almost exactly.
See I am not the only one.
Sebastian just has the subtlety of an 800 lb. gorilla. Way to calm down emotions by the way! Being called a violent extremist, gee! What was I thinking? That ought to shut me up, right?
*rolls eyes*
But the truth is, it isn't just a game. All of my close friends are gamers. I met my wife playing D&D. My sister and brother-in-law are both gamers, and my niece and nephew are learning how to play. The game that we play is an integral part of the social aspect of our lives. It has kept us close and in contact for decades. It is as much a part of my life as my family, my job or my faith.I love this post, because that totally represents me as well. 100%.
I really find it dismissive at least, insulting at worse, when people keep repeating the "it's just a game" mantra. That's the case for you? Great! But don't talk to me about what's important and not important in my life. This hobby is important in my life... because of what blackdragon said, almost exactly.
I think it's fine to be passionate about your hobbies and the community that forms around them. Gaming is a huge part of my life as well. The thing to be aware of is that the games we play are published by companies that can change the games, stop publishing them, sell them to other companies, or dramatically alter them in some other way. In other words we have no control over them. Because we have no control we need to relate to the games we play in a very different way then the hobby as a whole or the community of friends we share it with. If we let corporate decisions to impact us personally then we have given control of our happiness away to those corporate entities.
Games will come and go, they will change when we do not want them to, and they will remain unchanged when we feel that they need to evolve, and we cannot control it. So yes, D&D is just a game but gaming is not just a product - it is an important part of all of our lives.
I think it's fine to be passionate about your hobbies and the community that forms around them. Gaming is a huge part of my life as well. The thing to be aware of is that the games we play are published by companies that can change the games, stop publishing them, sell them to other companies, or dramatically alter them in some other way. In other words we have no control over them. Because we have no control we need to relate to the games we play in a very different way then the hobby as a whole or the community of friends we share it with. If we let corporate decisions to impact us personally then we have given control of our happiness away to those corporate entities.
Games will come and go, they will change when we do not want them to, and they will remain unchanged when we feel that they need to evolve, and we cannot control it. So yes, D&D is just a game but gaming is not just a product - it is an important part of all of our lives.
Totally spot-on, my friend.
That's that part, of somehow living with gaming as an important factor in our lives and yet, wake up to the reality that this is just a game, that is making many people hurt right now.
I found my peace by digging up my favorite out-of-print edition, picking up some bits and pieces from other editions and creating "my" own game system. There are no longer expectations regarding publications and whatever the owner of the brand does with it. But it took me a damn lot of time to come to this, and this didn't feel good, let me assure you. In the end, this made me more confident in my ability to craft with the game, so I guess it was worth it, in some way at least.
I still have to make progress on the realization that most players of the game will in the end evolve in a different direction than I, and the multiple instances of misunderstandings this will create, but the worse of it is over, I think.
I really find it dismissive at least, insulting at worse, when people keep repeating the "it's just a game" mantra. That's the case for you? Great! But don't talk to me about what's important and not important in my life. This hobby is important in my life... because of what blackdragon said, almost exactly.
In one respect, they're right. It is 'just a game.' And the Bible (Koran, Torah, Bhagavad-Gita, whatever) is 'just a book,' a book full of fantastic images and stories that people consider important to their lives, schedule their time around and that has helped them connect with other people who share similar interests / beliefs. Some dude who restores antique cars, or collects historical books, or plays an online game could be equally wrapped up in their 'passion.'
Contrary to the jaded emo crowd, it's not actually unhealthy or 'un-cool' to *LIKE SOMETHING.* The world is not as dreary and depressing as the 'everything sucks, be somber' crowd maintains, and if a person likes something enough to get passionate about it, it's not a sign of mental instability, it's a sign of a person *not* being clinically depressed or soul-crushingly cynical.
Soccer is 'just a game.' One whose fans will violently pummel the crap out of each other. We're nowhere near that level of passion about our 'just a game,' and, a few bad apples aside, who insist on calling one faction or the other violent extremists or irrational or fanatics or fascists or sock-puppets or apologists or 'fanbois' or 'haters' or whatever, we're pretty even-keeled people.
Is it possible to take the game 'too seriously?' Probably. But, bad Tom Hanks movies aside, we aren't running around in the sewers stabbing people because we think they're 'monsters.' We aren't running around in the streets flipping over cars and setting them on fire when 'our team' loses, and comparing us to people who *do* flip out and take stuff like that a bit too seriously is just attacking fellow gamers, which is kinda lame, since we're a small enough niche that the backbiting and name-calling only looks petty, from the outside.
In the end, the 'it's just a game' crowd sounds a lot like those kids in school who didn't want to admit that they liked fantasy or sci-fi, because it 'wasn't cool.' Don't show enthusiasm. Don't smile. Don't wave your arms around when you talk. Screw 'em. I'll like what I want to like, whether people-whose-opinions-mean-nothing-to-me think I'm the dorkiest dork that ever dorked.
In the end, the 'it's just a game' crowd sounds a lot like those kids in school who didn't want to admit that they liked fantasy or sci-fi, because it 'wasn't cool.' Don't show enthusiasm. Don't smile. Don't wave your arms around when you talk. Screw 'em. I'll like what I want to like, whether people-whose-opinions-mean-nothing-to-me think I'm the dorkiest dork that ever dorked.
You put the finger on this thing I didn't like and couldn't specifically name before. "The guys who didn't want to admit they liked fantasy or SF because it wasn't cool". That's it. Thanks for your post.
Well, let's see... THey cancel Dungeon & Dragon,
They didn't cancel Dungeon or Dragon, they just reclaimed the license from Paizo for their own use. Both Dungeon and Dragon are alive and (now) well online at WotC's website.
Hold off releasing the rules and the GSL of almost a year leaving most of thier 3PP's hanging, they turn the GSL into a noose,
I'm just not seeing the force inherent in this system, it sounds to me like they are forcing 3PPS to support 3.x, not 4E
and then they spend their entire marketing budget tell their customers (I.E. us) that the stuff they've been selling us sucks and we were fools for buying it
Where does Wizards say that older customers were fools for buying previous editions of D&D?
and now the only way our game will every be good agin is to buy all of our new, poorly playtested, cheaply printed overpriced new books, that are in no way compatiable with that old crap you spent a fortune buying.
Where does Wizards claim that the new books are poorly playtested, cheaply printed, or overpriced? How many D&D accessories from prior to 3.x can be used with 3.x? Did that 'force' people into 3.x?
I call that force. Especially when you are the 800lb gorilla.
To paraphrase Abe Lincoln, calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one.
I have no beef with enjoying the game or being passionate about it. It's the attitude of "I love the game more than you and know the One True Way to play it" that irritates me. That attitude is when you cross the line separating passion from zealotry. Feel free to be insulted by it if you must, but if you believe you need to oppose a particular edition on every front lest it erode your bonds with other humans, you have a serious social disorder and should see a shrink. The existence of a new edition is no more going to destroy your gaming group than the existence of a new game of any type. If Magic didn't destroy your group in the 90s, if WoW didn't destroy your group in the new millenium, if marriage and kids and a mortgage didn't destroy your group when you reached those life stages, then 4e is not going to destroy your group. 4e doesn't threaten your way of life and you are paranoid and a bit out of touch with reality if you think otherwise.
What irritates me personally is the series of assumptions and shortcuts that lead to all sorts of short-sighted comments and insults.
The many people saying "I love this game" with others reading it and assuming it means "my way's the one true way". That's more than a strawman argument, that demonstrates in my opinion that someone is emotionally and intellectually challenged to always interpret affection for something like zealotry and extremism that should be smothered by snipping at them.
I'm not saying that the line can't be crossed. Of course it can, on occasion. But let people with emotions have emotions, God darn it!
The belief that you know someone by reading posts on a screen, or that they can't have any other experience that explains their behavior on a message board than the ones you believe they had, is a fundamental psychological and intellectual mistake. I have news for you: you don't know me. You don't have any authority whatsoever to tell me what I feel, how I ought to feel, because you don't know what the f- is going on in my own life. What do you know about my marriage? What do you know about my group? Nothing. Don't act like you know. You don't. You're not in my shoes.
Use your empathy instead of your ego when typing posts!
That's what I'm saying.
PS: see, I can be subtle, too. LOL
But the truth is, it isn't just a game. All of my close friends are gamers. I met my wife playing D&D. My sister and brother-in-law are both gamers, and my niece and nephew are learning how to play. The game that we play is an integral part of the social aspect of our lives. It has kept us close and in contact for decades. It is as much a part of my life as my family, my job or my faith.
Sure, but I have a different family, different job and likely, different faith from you. Does that mean you should come around my living room or office and explain to me why my family is inferior to yours, or that your job pays better than mine?
3.5 (or whichever) is the game for you. We get that now. We've been hashing, rehashing, and rerehashing (etc) the same discussion points for months now. There's nothing new, and nothing useful being said (if there ever was).
Why not just go play your game, and I'll play whatever game I feel like on a given day, and both sides quit interpreting "I really like my (family/job/faith/game)" as "Your (family/job/faith/game) is totally (something unpleasant)"?
My oh my, someone's feeling persecuted.
The belief that you know someone by reading posts on a screen, or that they can't have any other experience that explains their behavior on a message board than the ones you believe they had, is a fundamental psychological and intellectual mistake. I have news for you: you don't know me. You don't have any authority whatsoever to tell me what I feel, how I ought to feel, because you don't know what the f- is going on in my own life. What do you know about my marriage? What do you know about my group? Nothing. Don't act like you know. You don't. You're not in my shoes.
You forgot "You're not my mom" in that litany.
You forgot "You're not my mom" in that litany.
Basically.
As for persecuted, not really. Nearly everyone here can attest I can work out my differences with other posters when I want to. I just can't stand the "righteous guy who doesn't flame", explains how to not flame, not feel extreme emotions to people, and then engages in condescending remarks and sniping, like you do right now.
Hypocrite.
As for persecuted, not really. Nearly everyone here can attest I can work out my differences with other posters when I want to. I just can't stand the "righteous guy who doesn't flame", explains how to not flame, not feel extreme emotions to people, and then engages in condescending remarks and sniping, like you do right now.
I don't follow.
What irritates me personally is the series of assumptions and shortcuts that lead to all sorts of short-sighted comments and insults.
You put the finger on this thing I didn't like and couldn't specifically name before. "The guys who didn't want to admit they liked fantasy or SF because it wasn't cool". That's it. Thanks for your post.
Dungeons and Dragons is just a game. It happens to be my primary hobby, and I've been playing it since I was 13 years old, but it's just a game. I have been unabashedly reading sci-fi and fantasy for at least that long.
I played 2nd Ed AD&D. I played 3.0. I played 3.5. I rather like 4E, but don't know if it will find a permanent place at my table. They are all just games.
Oh, I know! I wore a black trench in High School, and I'm looking forward to the release of Hunter: The Vigil from White Wolf. Would you like to accuse me of being a gothy, wannabe-Vampire LARPER while you're at it?
Seriously, between you and Sebastian, I see one person making sarcastic exagerations of the situation to point out the ridiculousness of the whole thing, and I see one person making short-sighted comments and insults. I'm not saying either of you is helping, but at least Sebastian's funny.
These wars will continue until you all agree with me that Bunnies and Burrows was the GRPGED*
Until then, you may all consider yourselves combatants and I will open up a can of whoop-*ss if you provoke an attack of opportunity from me.
Roll inititive!
Bunnies Rule!
*Greatest Role Playing Game Ever, Dude!
if you believe you need to oppose a particular edition on every front lest it erode your bonds with other humans, you have a serious social disorder and should see a shrink.
I agree with that. But I haven't really seen that around here (the closest I've come to seeing such dire hand-wringing sky-is-falling overwrought drama is on a specific forum of the WotC boards, which was recently re-orged), so it feels kind of like you are using a straw man to justify calling anywho who disagrees with you mentally unhinged or socially maladjusted.
Almost every poster who is generally considered 'anti-4E' has posted some things in 4E that they wouldn't mind seeing snatched away and tweaked into 3.75 or whatever, so they definitely aren't opposing 'everything' about 4E, just, in most cases, *some* things about 4E, and, in a fairly small percentage of cases, compared to the total gaming population, enough specific stuff that they aren't willing to abandon 3.X completely. For everyone who posts '4E sucks!' there's someone posting how they are cancelling their Paizo orders because Paizo didn't go 4E. For everyone who says 'fanboi,' which, frankly, I haven't seen for months, at least not here, there are three posters who say 'hater' and start threads to harangue the minority who haven't chosen to adopt 4E, sometimes even starting threads to *specifically harangue a single poster,* which, IMO, is damn petty.
4e doesn't threaten your way of life and you are paranoid and a bit out of touch with reality if you think otherwise.
Agreed. Turning that around, the exist of a few thousand fans of 3.0 or Pathfinder or whatever who don't choose to completely abandon the game and convert fully to 4E (despite many, if not most, of them admitting that they will play 4E as well) isn't such a personal affront that it warrants them being called various names or accused of being irrational or unbalanced somehow. It's just people, some of whom like 'plain old vanilla,' and some of whom like 'newfangled strawberry,' and the existence of those who like vanilla in now way is an insult to the people who like strawberry (or vice versa).
There are fans of 1st edition still out there, which I completely fail to understand, since I think 2nd edition was a huge improvement over it. But I don't think they are deranged or anything, just having made some different choices based on different preferences than my own. Heck, you can even find divisions *within* such niches, such as people who prefer pre-Unearthed Arcana 1st edition or pre-Skills & Powers 2nd edition! More power to them. Play what turns your crank, even if it's Bella Sara. /poke
I'm a pre-Time of Troubles Realms fan and a post-From the Ashes Greyhawk fan, myself, so my own absolute preferences are pretty niche themselves!
if you believe you need to oppose a particular edition on every front lest it erode your bonds with other humans, you have a serious social disorder and should see a shrink.I agree with that. But I haven't really seen that around here (the closest I've come to seeing such dire hand-wringing sky-is-falling overwrought drama is on a specific forum of the WotC boards, which was recently re-orged), so it feels kind of like you are using a straw man to justify calling anywho who disagrees with you mentally unhinged or socially maladjusted.
Okay, I think I see where this all went wrong now. My original comment was not at a strawman, it was at Blackdragon, who in this thread wrote about how he thinks he needs to oppose 4e at every front and believes everyone should write letters to WotC expressing their discontent. My post that sparked this controversy was in response to him specifically, and was not aimed at every person who prefers 3e over 4e, the overwhelming majority of whom take a reasonable position on the subject. Then Red Death got all upset, so I attempted to scale it back to say "if you believe absurd position x, you're paranoid" without going into whether he believed absurd position x or not. Then he got angry and mean for reasons I can't entirely follow, I thought it was funny, and here we are today.
So, to recap, and hopefully in a let's-heal-the-rifts-kinda-way, I agree, it is generally a strawman argument, and the only posters I can think of off the top of my head that seem to have a serious personal beef with 4e that crosses into zealotry are Razz and Blackdragon, with the former being much worse than the later.
Does that help?
Edit: And don't you ever talk any smack about people that prefer Bella Sara. That game blows D&D out of the water, and anyone who says otherwise is a nazi crackhead that hates America, freedom, and Jessica Alba.
Edit2: And apologies to Blackdragon for this post. I hate discussing other posters like this - my feeling is that if I've got something to say to a poster, I'll say it to them directly and not in some sort of meta-post where I discuss them like they aren't there, but I wanted to clarify some stuff for everyone that took my pot shots at you as pot shots against all 3er's. You're a nut, and I go back and forth between being on your wavelength and thinking you need medication (or maybe I need the medication to be on your wavelength full time - who knows), but I don't think you're per se a troll, or a bane on the boards, or anything like that. You've actually been pretty restrained in the 4e threads despite your strong opinions on the subject.
Edit: And don't you ever talk any smack about people that prefer Bella Sara. That game blows D&D out of the water, and anyone who says otherwise is a nazi crackhead that hates America, freedom, and Jessica Alba.
Whoah, whoah, whoah...careful there, sir. America and freedom? Who needs'em. But even nazi crackheads love the Alba.
I suggest you apologize to all the nazi crackheads you just offended with that kind of talk.
Edit2: And apologies to Blackdragon for this post. I hate discussing other posters like...
I don't think you need to worry. He came in yesterday, spammed 10 posts in less then an hour into this thread (See: BlackDragon Posts ) and then must have gotten distracted by the next shiny object. :-) I just ignored the posts for the most part. There is no reason to argue, nothing I say will sway him and I don't enjoy bickering as much as you do. :-)
[
Edit: And don't you ever talk any smack about people that prefer Bella Sara. That game blows D&D out of the water, and anyone who says otherwise is a nazi crackhead that hates America, freedom, and Jessica Alba.
You lie sir, there not a living thing that could hate Miss Alba.
I demand reparations!
Yeah, 1st Edition AD&D is cool. I preferred it to 2E :)
Same thing here. I've never really liked AD&D2's political correctness, nerfing of character classes, and what I'd brand as an "half-baked" optional skill system.
First Ed has a "vibe" that has never been emulated by other editions of the game. The "arcana" (people searching for information through First Ed's DMG often see this as a flaw while I consider it a feature) and "gygaxian medieval" flair of the game in particular.
(For the record, I also am an avid WoD player and ST, and own all the old and new WoD games with Chronicles that ran for years - just so I don't get branded a "simulationist", some conservative reject from the past, or whatever)
I'm actually quite suprised by people enjoying 4E and saying this "brings them back to First Ed's days". Why do you reckon that is?
Never having played 1E, perhaps I'm not the best source for this, but I think it is because 4E is a much more freeform open ended game than 3E. 3E definitely went down the path of "a rule for every situation" something that both 1E and 4E seem to veer strongly away from.
That's the sense I've gotten at least. Anyone else?
Never having played 1E, perhaps I'm not the best source for this, but I think it is because 4E is a much more freeform open ended game than 3E. 3E definitely went down the path of "a rule for every situation" something that both 1E and 4E seem to veer strongly away from.
That's the sense I've gotten at least. Anyone else?
As of the initial release of 4E, it does seem to capture that lighter feel from 1E. 2E and 3E both became enormously bloated with stuff (which I liked, because some of my favorite stuff got added in the 'bloat,' such as the Sha'ir and Totem-Sister kits or the Warlock class / Reserve Feats).
Whether or not 4E remains light, or begins to bloat up with the annual PHBs, remains to be seen. It seems like complexity and optional / newer systems keep getting added on, like the specialist mages, specialty priests, the skills & powers race/class building or the skill / proficiency systems of 2E, or the skill tricks, tactical feats, action points, etc. of 3E.
To some degree, lighter systems (such as True20 or M&M) have an inherent appeal. As much as I love hopping between a dozen books to find the perfect feat, spell, item, etc. for a character design that I want to be just so, there are also players who just want to play the damn game and not fiddle around on character design. (I tend to spend a lot of time writing up two page backstories and stuff that the GM never reads anyway. I think I'm a frustrated novelist...)
What I find interesting in the "rules light" approach is that First Ed has been accused time and time again to be a nitpicky system full of oddities and particular cases, that basically was the incarnation of a bloated system from the core on!
Have times changed and opinions evolved with them, or are we not talking about the same audience, here?