I don't care what people's sex life is like, I just don't like gaming with d-bags. A-holes and d-bags aren't welcome at my game, everyone else is fine. Keeps it simple.

I for one am delighted at the tone of this thread. Because we have authors and artists and employees at Paizo who are in the same categories as all the "alternative" lifestyles mentioned in this thread. That our messageboards are open and welcoming to all walks of life makes me very happy to be a part of the boards and a part of Paizo.

*smiles* Thank you, I'm happy that I was able to bring it up in a place where I'm not insta-flamed for a change. I would have to agree that this is quite possibly the best experience with this particular discourse that I've EVER had online.

I'm also very happy to hear that Paizo is, as a company, as welcoming and understanding of their employees as their boards are of people such as myself.

If only I lived in Seattle, I'd totally be applying for any positions I'd qualify for. C'est la vie though.

Meh, you'd hardly raise an eyebrow at our table.

The longest established player in our group (besides myself) is a Pagan/Wiccan/Spiritual Humanist post-op transexual bisexual, gay-identified man, who writes slash fan-fic when he's not working in a safe-sex outreach program for gay and bi men. And, he is married to a woman (and wow...marrying a straight woman was probably the most shocking thing he ever did to us!).

As for myself, I'm a Taoist, bisexual-identified man (1 to 2 on the Kinsey Scale I reckon), and my mother has run the office of the non-profit group that organizes the aforementioned outreach program for many years - point being, that I grew up around sexuality (alternate, safe, "normal", etc). As a kid, I would attend AIDS Day events, gay pride events, etc, our house always had books about sexuality/puberty geared towards children, and whenever I ended up at my mother's office, I was usually put to work separating huge strips of condoms in to single ones that would be passed out by the outreach programs.

My two most favorite characters: Serrek, a litorian half-vampire rogue (litorians = anthropomorphic lions...kind of a furry thing I suppose, though I don't consider myself one). I decided he was gay early in the campaign, on a whim - the DM was trying to use a standard female seduction plot hook on me, and I declared "I'm gay" just to be a jerk :p . However, it developed from there, with the almost-but-not-technically-evil Serrek developing a surprisingly touching relationship with a litorian courtier. It was very sweet.
My other favorite I'm still playing. His name is Kuldak, a half-orc rogue/barbarian. He's not so much "bisexual" as "not picky", and has a...ahem...healthy appetite. Your typical ale-and-wenches barbarian I suppose, but he's been an absolute hoot to roleplay. The faux-Russian "orcish" accent helps :D .

If anything about you would be unusual at my table, it'd be your previously mentioned "recovering munchkinism" (no one in our usual group has the skill, inclination or patience for much optimization in our characters) or perhaps your status as a Furry (I must admit, Furries fall into a category of people that I like to poke goodnatured fun at - this group also includes LARPers, fans of Twilight, and most anime fans).

I must admit, Furries fall into a category of people that I like to poke goodnatured fun at - this group also includes LARPers, fans of Twilight, and most anime fans.

WA HA HA HA HA!

I'd also like to point something out to the people who say "your sex life doesn't matter; we're just here to play" or a variation thereof. Please note that I say these things in the most respectful way possible; I'm not accusing anyone of anything, just attempting to share a viewpoint you may not have considered.

Orientation and identity is more than just sex - that's just the most noted part of it. The "LGBT community" exists for reasons other than being a support group - there's a reason they call these things "identities" and "lifestyles" (though the second one bugs me to no end).

Even if your group glosses over any and all romantic/intimate moments in-game, you may not be as equal as you think out of game.

If you have a trans person in your group, you have a person who may not look/sound/act like an "average" person of their gender, especially since many (if not all) states require TS folks to spend a year living as their goal gender before qualifying for any surgery. If you have a gay man in your group, he (most likely) isn't exactly like all your straight friends, except for his preference of partners.

It's all well and good to say "there's no sex happening here, so no problem."
But how is your group going to react when they notice that the new girl has an Adam's apple, or the new guy has bound breasts? When the session is over, what happens when Bob's husband comes to pick him up and holds his hand on the way to the car (or worse, kisses him)? Does anyone at your table use the word "gay" in a negative sense? Do they use the f-word (not the four letter one)?
If your group is like mine, they often go off on side conversations and tangents not related to the game. What's the reaction when Sally starts a story with "Last week, my wife and I..."? What if Gary says his favorite superhero is Wonder Woman because he'd like to have her powers? What if Alan says his favorite is Batman because the dark vigilante concept is sexy? Do they get laughed at? Do they make people uncomfortable?

I recall a moment when I was talking with a classmate during my freshman year of college. We were peer reviewing some kind of essay, and mine had something to do with modern acceptance of LGBT people. Anyhow, at some point she said something to this effect:
"My boyfriend, for example, has no problem at all with gay people, and he has friends who are gay; he just doesn't like it when they 'act gay' around him, or kiss or anything, because he thinks it's gross."
I knew her boyfriend, actually worked in the same building as him, and got along with him fairly well at a superficial level, so I had no problem flat out telling her "Yeah, your boyfriend is a bigot."
Oh, she was so offended. "But 'bigot' is such an ugly word! He's not!"
"Yes, it is, and yes, he is." I ended up very annoyed as well.

TL;DR: Take a step back and check yourself. If you claim you're tolerant because sex lives are private and don't matter, you might want to re-examine how you react to people when it comes to the everyday, public parts of their identity.

Hmm, well right now my table is comprised of three straight guys, my wife was at one point bi, but now that we're married she identifies as straight (since the only person she's having sex with is me :) ). My first gaming table was me, my two lesbian roomates, and a straight guy. I've worked for and with a transgendered individual, and I've worked with a wiccan. In fact the only thing on your list that would make me uncomfortable is your admittance of being a furry, I'd probably ask you not to talk about that or bring it up. And honestly once I got comfortable with you I'd spend a good amount of time making fun (in a good natured way) of you for it (making fun of my friends is pretty much standard, I don't make fun of people I don't like, they aren't worth thinking of).

My rule is that you leave your sexual/religious/political orientation at the doorstep when we play my PF games. I do know that most of my group are liberal folks whose heart beats at the left side of their chest, but that's not my concern. I can GM anyone as long as he doesn't bring his issues with anything up.

However, sometimes the lines blur. In our Werewolf game (where I am a player), I play a Get of Fenris garou who is a reformed neo-nazi (argh, Godwin's Law !). Basically he was a hardcore skinhead until several events forced him to rethink his ways. Now he is much more a temperate person, but the bald shaved heads and Celtic cross tattoos are a dead giveaway, forcing him into many sticky social situations.

It's a tough character to RP, still retaining some of his "might is right" attitude but without the racism or "kick everyone's ass" attitude. But I like RP challenges !

I'd also like to point something out to the people who say "your sex life doesn't matter; we're just here to play" or a variation thereof. Please note that I say these things in the most respectful way possible; I'm not accusing anyone of anything, just attempting to share a viewpoint you may not have considered.

Orientation and identity is more than just sex - that's just the most noted part of it. The "LGBT community" exists for reasons other than being a support group - there's a reason they call these things "identities" and "lifestyles" (though the second one bugs me to no end).
I agree whole heratedly. It's not my "lifestyle it's just my life.

Even if your group glosses over any and all romantic/intimate moments in-game, you may not be as equal as you think out of game.

Why? Please elaborate because in the group I am in we just kick in the door and loot the room. Having the DM focus on one guy getting it on with his centaur boyfriend for 20 minutes of game time leaves the rest of us doing nothing or making a munchie run.

If you have a gay man in your group, he (most likely) isn't exactly like all your straight friends, except for his preference of partners.

You can say that again we have 3 (myself included) and all of us are totally diffrent in every possible way, ones in a commited relationship, another is desperatly seeking a LTR because he hit 35 and now he's terrified of being alone, Me I'm still slutting around because I still look great at 40 and a Long Term Relationship just seems boring to me.

It's all well and good to say "there's no sex happening here, so no problem."
But how is your group going to react when they notice that the new girl has an Adam's apple, or the new guy has bound breasts? When the session is over, what happens when Bob's husband comes to pick him up and holds his hand on the way to the car (or worse, kisses him)? Does anyone at your table use the word "gay" in a negative sense? Do they use the f-word (not the four letter one)?
If your group is like mine, they often go off on side conversations and tangents not related to the game. What's the reaction when Sally starts a story with "Last week, my wife and I..."? What if Gary says his favorite superhero is Wonder Woman because he'd like to have her powers? What if Alan says his favorite is Batman because the dark vigilante concept is sexy? Do they get laughed at? Do they make people...

I understand your point however I would like to politley disagree with a few key points. Please understand that this is coming from a out gay male perspective and no bigotry or self-hate is implied.

yoda8myhead wrote:

There are some very prominent gay characters in the game (including at least one iconic and one BBEG) yet these aspects are never sensationalized, exotified, or exploited. If only our society as a whole took the same approach in real life.

You know, I'm going to finish reading the rest of the thread before I comment on the subject matter, but I HAVE to ask.

Which Iconic is this? I never noticed it mentioned anywhere.

When organising Pathfinder Society at GenConOz, every person who entered the pre-con messageboard thread suggested meeting for a beer before/between/after gaming ... that is everyone except me ... I don't drink beer, but I do drink dangerous quantities of tea, particularly Chai and Lapsang Souchong ... and I'm gay.

Now as much as I like pretty-boy Valeros, he has a beer tankard hanging from his belt ... he'll break your heart ... very much straight!

You know it's always the ones you least expect. Check who has a teapot hanging from his backpack! C'mon, who's ever heard of a Dwarf that doesn't love his beer? Harsk's your guy!

I'd like to think I'm open-minded, but I've never experienced this in gaming. I think it wouldn't bother me, and I'm the current GM, so the game would continue to run. But I do think at least one of my players would be a little non-plussed. (We're all straight white guys in our late 30's/early 40's.) Sexuality isn't a major focus or issue in our game. The most we delve into sex is a chaste kiss before the guys head off to plunder the Orcish keep. (This has a lot to do with a couple of the guys still being new to the rules. My group has three GM's, and we decided to concentrate on the hack n' slash before we went in-depth with the role-playing. So, things may change. After all, for fun I bought the Book of Erotic Fantasy. Might as well use it sometime.) But really, since we use the game mostly for escapist fantasy, I doubt if we'll ever deal with any substantive issues.

I'd like to think I'm open-minded, but I've never experienced this in gaming. I think it wouldn't bother me, and I'm the current GM, so the game would continue to run. But I do think at least one of my players would be a little non-plussed. (We're all straight white guys in our late 30's/early 40's.) Sexuality isn't a major focus or issue in our game. The most we delve into sex is a chaste kiss before the guys head off to plunder the Orcish keep. (This has a lot to do with a couple of the guys still being new to the rules. My group has three GM's, and we decided to concentrate on the hack n' slash before we went in-depth with the role-playing. So, things may change. After all, for fun I bought the Book of Erotic Fantasy. Might as well use it sometime.) But really, since we use the game mostly for escapist fantasy, I doubt if we'll ever deal with any substantive issues.

Dude the BoEF is awesome. I love that book. The spell in there that lets you strip off an opponents clothes gave me an idea for a spell to disintegrate clothing and non magical armor. The reverse gender spells are cool too. The only spells I could get my DM to approve were the ones for birth control. Another DM let me use unseen lover but thats about it. The gestation periods for the various races can be very informative. I hope you get as much fun out of it as possible.

I understand your point however I would like to politley disagree with a few key points. Please understand that this is coming from a out gay male perspective and no bigotry or self-hate is implied.

I simply feel that while equal rights are important and yes I have done my part in the parade routes and the campaign trails but you wont find any rainbow stickers a on my truck or flags flying in my apartment(although the nude male calender is a dead giveaway)the reason it's called a PRIVATE life is because it should be.
I dont want the government in my bedroom but I am getting a little tired of the bedroom coming to the streets too. I can't believe some of the gear that people think they can get away with wearing at some of these events.
As far as public displays of affection at malls or where ever as long as they are in good taste(holding hands, a quick kiss,etc) I dont think anyone would care. If your checking our the other persons dental work or engaged in serious heavy petting then yes thats inapropriate regardless of orientation.
I'm not disagreeing with your statements but I feel some of the LGBT communiteies problems are self inflicted and we should be more respectfull of the straight/normal people that we interact with.

Full Disclosure: I'm a 42 year old straight male, married with kids. I've never had any sort of thoughts or interest in the same gender but I am fairly militantly pro-gay rights. I believe the fact that so much bigotry and hatred yet exists towards homosexuals is a crying shame. I do believe though that we are making progress (slowly) towards increasing tolerance in the world. I believe everyone should have the same legal rights as everyone else, including the right to swear a lifelong bond of love and care that is just as legally recognized by the state as that between a male and a female.

Now, with that said, I have to agree with Steven Tindall. I am all for common sense and decency, from all parties, gay, straight, transexual, or whatever. I've seen a few gay rights parades and in all honesty they were despicable. Anyone can do whatever they like in their bedrooms but please have some respect for others. No one wants to see some of what I have seen at these parades and it does nothing to help your cause. In fact, it probably makes things more difficult to be accepted. I think more people would be more accepting of homosexuals if they didn't see scenes on the news showing men in leather g-strings practically fellating each other on a public street. That can't help anyones cause.

I hope that doesn't make me sound intolerant?

Here is the one kind of person I do not want at my games: Annoying Stupid.

Otherwise, you're welcome at the table!

I am actually the super-macho he-man type. Beer drinking, sexist joke cracking, metal head. My social circle, however consists mostly of gamers and gay couples. We had a gay couple (who are our best friends) stand up as our best man and maid of honor in our wedding. We are the straight minority at most parties we attend.

My only problem with gamers (and most people in fact) is an inability to laugh at oneself. Too many games have been interupted by the player who takes himself too seriously. Being the only straight male at times (on top of my typical male behavior) places me in the position to be picked on ALOT. But what I love about my friends is that they can not only dish it out, they can take it. I've rarely met a group of people so easy going, down to earth and lacking in pretentiousness.

The gaming table, for us, is a place where we step out of ourselves and explore different ways of thinking, or live out our fantasies of heroism. It needs to be a place where there is no bias or prejudice. Without that open mindedness and willingness to explore different avenues of thought it might as well not exist.

Game on, people.

Oh, and "Up the Irons"!

I am a conservative Christian gamer. A traditionalist. I do not particularly approve of nor encourage the whole GLBT movement. That does not mean I hate you all and wish you to burn in hell, though that is the brush I am generally painted with by the intolerant of your side of the aisle. I have worked with, gamed with, laughed with, spent time with and generally have a lot of enjoyable memories with friends and co-workers who were not 'straight'.

I don't push the topic of my belief system at the game table because there is likely someone there who does not believe the same way I do. Is it intolerant to expect the same common courtesy from those who are there with me?

That's not saying I would be insulted and pissed if the topic comes up. "My character is a Dwarf Rogue from Mt. Deepunderground and he happens to be gay" is not gonna bother me. If however, Mr. Dwarf Rogue's character revolves around his being gay or what ever, it's going to get annoying PDQ. Of course, for the record the same goes for any PC who revolves around sexuality be it homo, hetero or otherwise. Sexual fantasies are not high on my list of things I'm looking for in a campaign, but that's my personal preference. If it is for you we likely wouldn't be in the same group very long anyway.

It sounds like in general the attitude is "For me, it's not really an issue unless you make it an issue." Which is fair enough. Look, generally none of us game with strangers and you aren't going to invite people into your home for a game unless you know them or have someone who can vouch for them, regardless of their lifestyle. I've only heard of a few cases of players being kicked out of a group and it's never been because of their lifestyle, it's because they're a disruptive player that makes the experience less fun for everyone else.

Most of our play is network play so for the most part changes like this end when the module is done unless it's certed through whatever campaign management is applicable.

Now has to dealing with the player, it's really pretty much irrelevant to me where you're coming from. I'll respect you even though I pretty much despise anthropomorphic literature, furry conventions, and I have a fairly dim view about most New Age shamanism, wiccans, and self-professed Druids. Although I try not to let past history about a gamer I knew who was both a Thor-worshiper and a pedophile influence my judgement at least not without concious awareness.

I can respect the right of people to hold whatever orientation, religous belief, or whatever they desire. As long as they're good gamers at table, that's all that's relevant to me.

That's not saying I would be insulted and pissed if the topic comes up. "My character is a Dwarf Rogue from Mt. Deepunderground and he happens to be gay" is not gonna bother me. If however, Mr. Dwarf Rogue's character revolves around his being gay or what ever, it's going to get annoying PDQ.

It's all a matter of setting down the expectations for the game beforehand. If I'm expecting a hack 'n' slash game against hordes of orcs, and 90% of the game ends up being a tender love story between a peasant girl and a local merchant, I'm probably going to be unhappy.

I am a conservative Christian gamer. A traditionalist. I do not particularly approve of nor encourage the whole GLBT movement. That does not mean I hate you all and wish you to burn in hell, though that is the brush I am generally painted with by the intolerant of your side of the aisle. I have worked with, gamed with, laughed with, spent time with and generally have a lot of enjoyable memories with friends and co-workers who were not 'straight'.

I'm 100% atheist but have played for a *very* long time with at least two very solidly Christian players. One of the two is not terribly interested in having any discussions about religion/atheism whereas the other has attempted to engage me in very, very deep debate on numerous occasions. In both cases both players have been *exceptional* roleplayers, both getting deep into character and both seeming to be exceptionally tolerant of my heathenish (lol) ways. I count the one as a friend for about 20 years and the other almost 10 now. In any event, while yes, your side of the aisle is often painted as "intolerant" that is most certainly not always the case (as I have personally witnessed). However, comments like "I do not particularly approve of..." tend to incite a deep level of defensiveness and anger from those who are in whatever group you do not approve of. For them, they couldn't care less about your (or others) approval because thankfully for them, neither you nor I have any right (or power) to make them behave how we behave (or would like them to behave).

Thanks for the polite disagreements. :)
Steven, allow me to respond in a similar manner:

Jagyr Ebonwood wrote:

Even if your group glosses over any and all romantic/intimate moments in-game, you may not be as equal as you think out of game.

Why? Please elaborate because in the group I am in we just kick in the door and loot the room.

Sure. What I meant to say was, some people think that by declaring "no sex in game" that they have removed all sexuality from the game session. What they forget is that orientation/identity isn't just about sex, and that a player can be very obviously LGBT (and thus subject to intolerance) even if no sexual topics ever come up.

Jagyr Ebonwood wrote:

If you have a gay man in your group, he (most likely) isn't exactly like all your straight friends, except for his preference of partners.

You can say that again we have 3 (myself included) and all of us are totally diffrent in every possible way, ones in a commited relationship, another is desperatly seeking a LTR because he hit 35 and now he's terrified of being alone, Me I'm still slutting around because I still look great at 40 and a Long Term Relationship just seems boring to me.

HA! I think you misunderstood my (poorly written) sentence, however. What I meant to say: There are some people who have gay acquaintances and think of them just the same as their straight friends, except that they like men instead of women. This is (generally) not true, and sets up unfortunate expectations and assumptions.

I simply feel that while equal rights are important and yes I have done my part in the parade routes and the campaign trails but you wont find any rainbow stickers a on my truck or flags flying in my apartment(although the nude male calender is a dead giveaway)the reason it's called a PRIVATE life is because it should be.

I'm from a town in (gay marriage friendly!) Vermont with an active liberal community. There are rainbow stickers galore around here.

I dont want the government in my bedroom...

Amen brother.

...but I am getting a little tired of the bedroom coming to the streets too. I can't believe some of the gear that people think they can get away with wearing at some of these events.

Hmmm...I go both ways on this (ba-dum-chish). Everyone has their own yardstick of "what's appropriate." On one hand, pride events are the sanctioned place to be over the top. On the other...some things are just not inappropriate in public. That's neither here nor there though, as we're not talking about pride events - we're talking about the gaming table.

As far as public displays of affection at malls or where ever as long as they are in good taste(holding hands, a quick kiss,etc) I dont think anyone would care.

This is getting back more to what I was talking about. Holding hands, a quick kiss...that's not overtly sexual. It's generally appropriate just about any public place, for heterosexuals anyhow.

If the spouses/significant others drop the gamers off at the game, does the group react differently to the peck on the cheek between the straight couple compared to the one between the same-sex couple? This is what I'm getting at - out of game, non-sexual displays of orientation/identity.

I'm not disagreeing with your statements but I feel some of the LGBT communiteies problems are self inflicted and we should be more respectfull of the straight/normal people that we interact with.

Whoo-boy, is that a statement to open a can of worms. ;)

Just as every culture has hidden symbolism to identify it's members for those in the know, whether it be a ring worn in the right ear, a rainbow flag, or phrases such as "he's a friend of Dorothy", in Golarion that symbolism is the unassuming teapot.

BWAHAHA!

I am all for common sense and decency, from all parties, gay, straight, transexual, or whatever. I've seen a few gay rights parades and in all honesty they were despicable. Anyone can do whatever they like in their bedrooms but please have some respect for others. No one wants to see some of what I have seen at these parades and it does nothing to help your cause. In fact, it probably makes things more difficult to be accepted. I think more people would be more accepting of homosexuals if they didn't see scenes on the news showing men in leather g-strings practically fellating each other on a public street. That can't help anyones cause.

I hope that doesn't make me sound intolerant?

Eh, maybe just a little. Consider this statement:

I do understand what you're saying, jreyst. The "common decency" argument is an old one, and a tricky one. Most everyone agrees that some things are just plain inappropriate, myself included...the problem is that anti-LGBT folks have used the idea of "common decency" for a long time to legitimize their bigotry.

Also, saying "it doesn't help your cause" sounds a bit confrontational, and odd coming from an avowed gay-rights activist.

Please don't take offense at my response; I meant none. You, as a non-LGBT person, asked me (well, maybe not me specifically), as a LGBT person, if your statement made you sound intolerant. There's your answer. Hopefully I've helped you to consider your words from a different perspective :)

The intent of my original post was to address people who were thinking:
"Here's a person who has different sexual tastes than mine - who cares, this is game night, not singles' night."

And to have them consider this as well:
"Here's a person who is different than me in a fundamental way - is that going to make me or them enjoy the game any less (even if I don't show it)?"

Really, just putting out some food for thought, and helping people re-examine themselves (which is always good, from time to time). :)

Oh, and I also want to reiterate James Jacobs' sentiment upthread - the fact that this thread has been extremely positive and civil makes me all warm and fuzzy. :D

Wolfthulhu wrote:

I am a conservative Christian gamer. A traditionalist. I do not particularly approve of nor encourage the whole GLBT movement. That does not mean I hate you all and wish you to burn in hell, though that is the brush I am generally painted with by the intolerant of your side of the aisle.

In any event, while yes, your side of the aisle is often painted as "intolerant" that is most certainly not always the case (as I have personally witnessed). However, comments like "I do not particularly approve of..." tend to incite a deep level of defensiveness and anger from those who are in whatever group you do not approve of. For them, they couldn't care less about your (or others) approval because thankfully for them, neither you nor I have any right (or power) to make them behave how we behave (or would like them to behave).

Well put, sir. :)

HA! I think you misunderstood my (poorly written) sentence, however. What I meant to say: There are some people who have gay acquaintances and think of them just the same as their straight friends, except that they like men instead of women. This is (generally) not true, and sets up unfortunate expectations and assumptions.

Can you explain what you mean by this? I'm a bit lost. Maybe it's because I'm mainly spending time on the party circuit(unless a gay friend shows up at a game or two), but to me, whether gay or straight, everyone seems the same.

Eh, maybe just a little. Consider this statement:

"I think more people would be more accepting of African-Americans if they didn't see scenes on the news showing black men committing crimes all over the place."
That example statement is horribly inappropriate in my opinion...I actually want to apologize to the African-American Paizo community for using it as an example. I hope I haven't offended anyone. :-/

Too late. I'm offended. I've scheduled your house for my next drive-by while on my way to sling rock outside of the high school my baby mama attends.

I'm just kidding on that one, but this raises an interesting question. I've seen a few things at pride events are over the top. I've been to a few, and even got some of WHAT I HOPE TO GOD WAS WATER sprayed in my face from a novelty phallus on a float. While I was temporarily mortified(today it's a funny story!), I eventually realized it was just one person acting stupid on a float that probably won't be allowed back next year if the float organizer catches them- in fact they may be kicked off the float entirely that same day if a big enough stink is raised. If someone really has a problem with what's going on at an event, talk to the staff there- provided your beef is legitimate, there will be other people who feel the same way too and the staff will probably talk to the person who organized or sponsored the float and ask them to tone it down a notch or they won't be welcome back next year. This doesnt' just go for pride events, but any event- it's part of what makes parades work.

And a final question to those offended by PDA displays- Would you truly be offended if it was a heterosexual display? Because from what I've seen, there sure is one large blind eye turned to such parings in public, even when things are going in the public indecency direction.

First thanks for taking my comments in the spirit intended, honestly and politely from someone who is for equal rights. You said a lot up thread but since I'm inherently selfish and only interested in me I'm only going to respond to your comments directed at me :)

Eh, maybe just a little. Consider this statement:

"I think more people would be more accepting of African-Americans if they didn't see scenes on the news showing black men committing crimes all over the place."

I'm not sure that's a fair analogy. Had I never seen a gay rights parade I might imagine one as a coming together of like-minded individuals who are crying out for equal rights and protection under the law. I might imagine it as just a bunch of people who protest or hold banners or chant phrases asking for equal rights etc. I'd imagine people of all shapes and sizes of all colors and creeds, coming together in a peaceful demonstration of solidarity where they demonstrate that they are not the monsters that us hetero's fear. Instead, what I HAVE seen is a demonstration of all that very many conservatives do fear, a complete breakdown of common sense and public displays of sexuality that most in the society would deem as inappropriate at best but more likely criminal. I'd love to take my three daughters (ages 7-15) to a gay rights parade but the few parades I have seen do not make me think that would be a good idea.

Now, on the bigger subject, is that generalizing? Yes, certainly. Obviously not every gay rights parade or every person AT a gay rights parade is going to be like that. However, I'm just referring to the examples I have seen.

That example statement is horribly inappropriate in my opinion...I actually want to apologize to the African-American Paizo community for using it as an example. I hope I haven't offended anyone. :-/

And I too apologize to the non-hetero community if my original statement was offensive. It really wasn't meant to be. I'm just a boring old straight guy who wants you to have the same rights I do but maybe sometimes I might misspeak from ignorance. Its certainly not because I intend harm.

I do understand what you're saying, jreyst. The "common decency" argument is an old one, and a tricky one. Most everyone agrees that some things are just plain inappropriate, myself included...the problem is that anti-LGBT folks have used the idea of "common decency" for a long time to legitimize their bigotry.

I'm all for everyone being able to have the same levels of PDA that we hetero's have, ie, holding hands, a public embrace and/or quick kiss... all are perfectly accepted in hetero culture. I see no reason non-heteros shouldn't be able to engage in the exact same behavior. In fact, I wish I saw more homosexuals publicly holding hands in the mall or on the street as I would feel that maybe we are finally making some progress in this world.

Also, saying "it doesn't help your cause" sounds a bit confrontational, and odd coming from an avowed gay-rights activist.

Well to be honest I say "your cause" only because while I am all for gay rights its not really about me nor does it affect me. Its the same thing I guess if I referred to equal rights for blacks as "their cause". Certainly I can feel for them/you and certainly I can attempt to make that cause also my own, but since I am not really suffering then its not truly MY cause. I'm sure that will get dissected lol

Please don't take offense at my response; I meant none. You, as a non-LGBT person, asked me (well, maybe not me specifically), as a LGBT person, if your statement made you sound intolerant. There's your answer. Hopefully I've helped you to consider your words from a different perspective :)

I don't take any offense. I actually really enjoy this conversation :)

I'm a Petanko who likes Petankos. and regularly attend sankaku complex without a login. i also look extremely young for my age. which i decline to specify. i also have a tomoyou daidouji fetish. i wear a black yukata as often as possible. (i have about 10 or 15) i am a gymnast, 1st degree black belt in kenpo, and a gamer, an anime geek, a small time cosplayer a petanko and a petankophile. unfortunately for you i am not posting any DFC cause it would violate the terms of service. and i prefer not to be photographed. i dropped out of kenpo recently. if you want a simpler name, nekogami-chan works too.

I'm a Petanko who likes Petankos. and regularly attends sankaku complex without a login. i also look extremely young for my age. which i decline to specify.

I figured out what a petanko is but for the life of me I can't seem to determine what sankaku is. I'm guessing something to do with anime but have no real idea lol.

I guess I'm just wondering how those of you who deign to respond would react to such a person as me?

Hmm... that's a tough question to answer. Or, upon thought, maybe it's easy to answer!

Our particular group only plays with friends. So, pretty much, if you were a friend already, you'd already be welcomed at our table. If a person wasn't a friend, they wouldn't be gaming with us in the first place.

(That is, of course, ignoring gaming styles. Our group is fairly heavy into the 'kick down the door' style, with roleplaying staying firmly focused in certain areas and completely ignoring other topics. Sexuality is pretty much not considered at all during our games - if a person ever has to actually point out that their character is 'gay', 'hetero', or otherwise, then that person probably was never that good a fit for our particular group.)

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

I'm a Petanko who likes Petankos. and regularly attends sankaku complex without a login. i also look extremely young for my age. which i decline to specify.

I figured out what a petanko is but for the life of me I can't seem to determine what sankaku is. I'm guessing something to do with anime but have no real idea lol.

it's a japanese website, pretty versatile actually. some things you wouldn't want to see, but it's categorized by section.

it's a japanese website, pretty versatile actually. some things you wouldn't want to see, but it's categorized by section.

I see. I guess I'll take your word for it :)

jreyst wrote:

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

I'm a Petanko who likes Petankos. and regularly attends sankaku complex without a login. i also look extremely young for my age. which i decline to specify.

I figured out what a petanko is but for the life of me I can't seem to determine what sankaku is. I'm guessing something to do with anime but have no real idea lol.

it's a japanese website, pretty versatile actually. some things you wouldn't want to see, but it's categorized by section.

Yeah I had to look up both words too. Who knew Petanko existed, I never knew it from the anime I have seen. Where the girls all seem to have anti-grav devices in their shirts. :)

Wolfthulhu wrote:

I am a conservative Christian gamer. A traditionalist. I do not particularly approve of nor encourage the whole GLBT movement. That does not mean I hate you all and wish you to burn in hell, though that is the brush I am generally painted with by the intolerant of your side of the aisle. I have worked with, gamed with, laughed with, spent time with and generally have a lot of enjoyable memories with friends and co-workers who were not 'straight'.

I'm 100% atheist but have played for a *very* long time with at least two very solidly Christian players. One of the two is not terribly interested in having any discussions about religion/atheism whereas the other has attempted to engage me in very, very deep debate on numerous occasions. In both cases both players have been *exceptional* roleplayers, both getting deep into character and both seeming to be exceptionally tolerant of my heathenish (lol) ways. I count the one as a friend for about 20 years and the other almost 10 now. In any event, while yes, your side of the aisle is often painted as "intolerant" that is most certainly not always the case (as I have personally witnessed). However, comments like "I do not particularly approve of..." tend to incite a deep level of defensiveness and anger from those who are in whatever group you do not approve of. For them, they couldn't care less about your (or others) approval because thankfully for them, neither you nor I have any right (or power) to make them behave how we behave (or would like them to behave).

You are absolutely correct. It's not about my approval at all, so why should the calm, non-hostile statement of my beliefs matter? After all I was very careful to follow up with saying that I do try not to be judgmental about the issues, and isn't that where the problems arise? Not with the way I feel, but with the antagonistic presentation of those feelings.

Jagyr Ebonwood wrote:

There are some people who have gay acquaintances and think of them just the same as their straight friends, except that they like men instead of women. This is (generally) not true, and sets up unfortunate expectations and assumptions.

Can you explain what you mean by this? I'm a bit lost. Maybe it's because I'm mainly spending time on the party circuit(unless a gay friend shows up at a game or two), but to me, whether gay or straight, everyone seems the same.

Hmmm...why am I having such a hard time articulating this? Okay, let's put it this way. John, a straight guy with no gay friends, hears that Steve, a gay guy, will be attending the game tonight for the first time. John, like many straight men, finds himself slightly uneasy about the topic of sexuality, but he reassures himself. "He's just like any of my straight friends" John thinks, "he just happens to like guys instead of girls."

This is what I'm talking about. While in some cases this idea works well, there are many times when it doesn't. This thought process glosses over the fact that identity is more than just sexual attraction.

And a final question to those offended by PDA displays- Would you truly be offended if it was a heterosexual display? Because from what I've seen, there sure is one large blind eye turned to such parings in public, even when things are going in the public indecency direction.

+1. The lynch-pin of the "common decency" argument. :)

I'm not sure that's a fair analogy.

I know it's a flawed one. :-/ I've found it's really hard to make decent comparisons between different kinds of bigotry, but sometimes it's a useful tool in explaining a viewpoint.

RE: Pride parades et al: As I said before, everyone has their own standards, and it's up to the individual to decide what crosses the line for them (and their children). A great many pride parades are modeled after Carnivale and Mardi Gras, and you can bet you'll be able to find at least one person who's gone just a little too far. Personally, I believe there's a difference between nudity (or near-nudity) and sexuality, but that's a different topic.

Suffice to say that most gaming sessions don't resemble Mardi Gras (although if yours does, send me an invite!). What's important is to establish a baseline for your group.

In my current group, we play at a game store, so we have to be fairly accommodating. My kilt-wearing, indiscriminately-wenching half-orc was a lot of fun, and set up a lot of low-brow humor, as well as some interesting side-scenes. When one of the players was candid enough to say that he wasn't really enjoying the "romance" aspect of the game, the DM and I made a conscious effort to step it back a bit, out of respect for him and the game. Unfortunately, since then, most of the rest of the players (who are mostly teenage boys...sigh) have been goading my character with various sexual things, and making jokes based off him - essentially picking up where I left off! I've had to say more than once, "dammit guys, why am I always the sex-joke guy?" A few "that's what she said" jokes here and there are one thing (Kuldak has one point in Craft: Double Entendre :D ), but I don't go so far as to make other people uncomfortable.

We have another player who is trying to play a bad-ass lesbian rogue, and insists that his half-elf is actually half-drow, and keeps referring to his character with derogatory slang, and constantly tries to have sex with every remotely attractive female NPC we encounter (by the way, have you noticed how many lesbian NPCs there are in CotCT? More than I expected, anyhow). Typical 17 year old male...*rolleyes*
Our real problem with him is that his character is like the sorceress from Gamers: the Dorkness Rising:
"You guys, I'm not evil!"
"You are evil, and a whore."

Freehold DM wrote:

Jagyr Ebonwood wrote:

There are some people who have gay acquaintances and think of them just the same as their straight friends, except that they like men instead of women. This is (generally) not true, and sets up unfortunate expectations and assumptions.

Can you explain what you mean by this? I'm a bit lost. Maybe it's because I'm mainly spending time on the party circuit(unless a gay friend shows up at a game or two), but to me, whether gay or straight, everyone seems the same.

Hmmm...why am I having such a hard time articulating this? Okay, let's put it this way. John, a straight guy with no gay friends, hears that Steve, a gay guy, will be attending the game tonight for the first time. John, like many straight men, finds himself slightly uneasy about the topic of sexuality, but he reassures himself. "He's just like any of my straight friends" John thinks, "he just happens to like guys instead of girls."

This is what I'm talking about. While in some cases this idea works well, there are many times when it doesn't. This thought process glosses over the fact that identity is more than just sexual attraction.

If you're talking more in terms of personality, then I still think everyone's the same in the "unique snowflake" sense. If I was John, I'd think Steve was just another guy who probably has his own hang ups and issues unique to him in addition to being attracted to men. I wouldn't think he fell off of an assembly line- but then again I don't think that of anyone.

Hmmm...why am I having such a hard time articulating this? Okay, let's put it this way. John, a straight guy with no gay friends, hears that Steve, a gay guy, will be attending the game tonight for the first time. John, like many straight men, finds himself slightly uneasy about the topic of sexuality, but he reassures himself. "He's just like any of my straight friends" John thinks, "he just happens to like guys instead of girls."

This is an interesting angle.. theres some intriguing nuggets buried in this conversation. This reminds me of my next door neighbor. He is a few years older than me (maybe approaching 50). He's the best kind of neighbor you could ever want. Hell he's among the best kind of people you'd want just as a friend. He has always been there for me and my kids when we needed anything. He has watched over our house and collected our mail when we were away. He has cleaned out my gutters for me without asking. He has helped me spread topsoil in my front yard even after I sweatingly in july insisted I had it under control. He also happens to be gay and single. As long as I've known him he has been single. I tell my wife all the time I wish he'd "find someone" and "settle down" etc. As if I think he is "missing" something. Well to be honest he has young friends over all of the time... playing thumping techno music from their convertables as they pull out of his driveway at 1 in the morning... I'm certain he is not lacking for "companionship" but this ties into people sometimes thinking people are the same MINUS the gay part. What I want maybe he doesn't. I think he should find some dude and just find "true happiness" but for all I know maybe he couldn't be happier? Meh. Who knows?

Jagyr Ebonwood wrote:

John, a straight guy with no gay friends, hears that Steve, a gay guy, will be attending the game tonight for the first time. John, like many straight men, finds himself slightly uneasy about the topic of sexuality, but he reassures himself. "He's just like any of my straight friends" John thinks, "he just happens to like guys instead of girls."

This thought process glosses over the fact that identity is more than just sexual attraction.

If you're talking more in terms of personality, then I still think everyone's the same in the "unique snowflake" sense. If I was John, I'd think Steve was just another guy who probably has his own hang ups and issues unique to him in addition to being attracted to men. I wouldn't think he fell off of an assembly line- but then again I don't think that of anyone.

That makes you a decent, thoughtful person...but you're ruining my explanations! Stop it! :p

The problem is that our hypothetical John doesn't see Steve as unique. His thought process is utilizing too many heuristics, and he's trapped by stereotypes.
He has (unconscious) issues with with "gay", so he tries to mentally fit Steve into the "straight" category. "Just like my straight friends, except gay." John sets him self at ease by expecting Steve's behavior to conform to whatever John's idea of "straight" is.
The problem comes when Steve doesn't conform to John's expectations. John is snapped back to that moment of "he's gay, he's different, what do I do?"
Some John-types get over this relatively quickly, and have their minds and horizons expanded. Others have it as a recurring hang-up for years.

Freehold DM wrote:

Jagyr Ebonwood wrote:

John, a straight guy with no gay friends, hears that Steve, a gay guy, will be attending the game tonight for the first time. John, like many straight men, finds himself slightly uneasy about the topic of sexuality, but he reassures himself. "He's just like any of my straight friends" John thinks, "he just happens to like guys instead of girls."

This thought process glosses over the fact that identity is more than just sexual attraction.

If you're talking more in terms of personality, then I still think everyone's the same in the "unique snowflake" sense. If I was John, I'd think Steve was just another guy who probably has his own hang ups and issues unique to him in addition to being attracted to men. I wouldn't think he fell off of an assembly line- but then again I don't think that of anyone.
That makes you a decent, thoughtful person...but you're ruining my explanations! Stop it! :p

I can't help it! Stop me before I'm nice again! ;-)

Jagyr Ebonwood wrote:

The problem is that our hypothetical John doesn't see Steve as unique. His thought process is utilizing too many heuristics, and he's trapped by stereotypes.

He has (unconscious) issues with with "gay", so he tries to mentally fit Steve into the "straight" category. "Just like my straight friends, except gay." John sets him self at ease by expecting Steve's behavior to conform to whatever John's idea of "straight" is.
The problem comes when Steve doesn't conform to John's expectations. John is snapped back to that moment of "he's gay, he's different, what do I do?"
Some John-types get over this relatively quickly, and have their minds and horizons expanded. Others have it as a recurring hang-up for years.

Well, my next question is...is this a bad thing? Is this an offensive level of faux-acceptance or a step in the right direction for hetero-homosexual relations? I'm not saying that there isn't more work to be done, but is this a false start?

Also, as a secondary thought to those who don't want to see..uh...gay people "being gay", I guess- what would you have done then? Where are gay people supposed to meet each other? How should they act around each other? Heterosexuality is so much more than just the act itself, it's all the things that go into it- how we expect men and women to act around each other, how they act when they are interested in each other and most importantly, how they court one another. What are homosexual/gay individuals supposed to do? How should they interact? Secret handshake? Special knock? Decoder rings? I'm being silly here, but I want to know what people who have issues with this want to see gay people do?

Hmmm...why am I having such a hard time articulating this? Okay, let's put it this way. John, a straight guy with no gay friends, hears that Steve, a gay guy, will be attending the game tonight for the first time. John, like many straight men, finds himself slightly uneasy about the topic of sexuality, but he reassures himself. "He's just like any of my straight friends" John thinks, "he just happens to like guys instead of girls."

This is what I'm talking about. While in some cases this idea works well, there are many times when it doesn't. This thought process glosses over the fact that identity is more than just sexual attraction.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think I can expand on what you're saying by pointing out that if an environment is heteronormative (assuming heterosexuality as the default and homosexuality or bisexuality as exceptional behaviors) then a gay or bisexual person has to either conform on the surface to that heteronormativity, or be seen as 'the exception'. The problem with being seen as 'the exception' in any social group is that often one's existence or participation is defined by that one exceptional characteristic rather than by one's whole identity.

As a bisexual woman, I can 'pass' for straight very easily, simply by not mentioning my attractions to women. But with anyone I'd call a friend-- and this includes my gaming group-- I don't do that. If I'm dating a woman, I want to be able to talk about it with my friends just as openly as I'd talk about dating a man. I'd want to be able to invite my girlfriend to social outings with the same ease and comfort that I could invite a boyfriend.

Whether sex is part of the game or not, one's sexual orientation is about more than just the gender of one's sexual partners, and saying it's a 'non-issue' simply based on the fact that sexual situations aren't part of gameplay may or may not be true from the perspective of the gay or bisexual person in a heteronormative group.

Some John-types get over this relatively quickly, and have their minds and horizons expanded. Others have it as a recurring hang-up for years.

Everyone has comfort zones. I think it's incumbent upon anyone with a sense of empathy to *not* go out of their way to make other people uncomfortable. (With the key part of that sentence being 'go out of their way.' If some schmuck has a problem with you because, completely out of his sight, you live a lifestyle that he finds icky, he's the big squeamish sissy who needs to grow a pair, and you're blameless and pure.)

If Joe Schmoe labels a gay acquaintance as 'like a straight guy who likes dudes,' that's not any sort of revelation about the acquaintance, that's a revelation about Joe's utter lack of interest in thinking deeply on the subject. Yay for Joe. Perhaps he's got stuff more relevant to his life to think deeply upon. Perhaps he's an innocent bystander in this conflict. Perhaps browbeating him into thinking deeply on this matter will only reveal that he's just plain not a deep thinker, and now he's really annoyed at the person who wasn't satisfied with him just accepting them without some profound revelatory experience.

Descriptors often have a way of revealing more about the describer than the described, in my experience.

I met most of my current group at the FLGS. I do not know how many people have put the connection of their logo to the owner's identity, but it is is a female standing in front of the triangle. The sex shop is also owned by them, which might be a little more definitive. O:) That group has had gay characters, and lots of transvirtuals (myself included) too but I do not know about the players--nor did we ever think to ask.

I cannot say that sexuality is a part of the game we play. Swinging a sword at an orc, just doesn't need that part of the character defined. Sure Dragons will sleep with anything--really a giant shark with wings and a lightning breath.

As an aside, I have only ever seen two characters who were married though. Married PCs could be considered alternative lifestyles if my meager experience translates to gaming as a whole. *grin*

The problem is that our hypothetical John doesn't see Steve as unique. His thought process is utilizing too many heuristics, and he's trapped by stereotypes.

He has (unconscious) issues with with "gay", so he tries to mentally fit Steve into the "straight" category. "Just like my straight friends, except gay." John sets him self at ease by expecting Steve's behavior to conform to whatever John's idea of "straight" is.
The problem comes when Steve doesn't conform to John's expectations. John is snapped back to that moment of "he's gay, he's different, what do I do?"
Some John-types get over this relatively quickly, and have their minds and horizons expanded. Others have it as a recurring hang-up for years.

This is funnier than you could ever imagine!

My friend John has been talking about starting up his own D&D campaign for months, maybe years now? In fact, it has commonly become known among our friends as the "hypothetical John" campaign, "hypothetical" because it's been muchly discussed but hasn't happened yet. We rarely meet without someone discussing plans for this "hypothetical John" campaign. Yes, hypothetical John is straight.

My RL name is Stephen, there's nothing "hypothetical" about me, I'm gay.

So watch what you say about us in a public forum, okay? ;-)

Now, with that said, I have to agree with Steven Tindall. I am all for common sense and decency, from all parties, gay, straight, transexual, or whatever. I've seen a few gay rights parades and in all honesty they were despicable. Anyone can do whatever they like in their bedrooms but please have some respect for others. No one wants to see some of what I have seen at these parades and it does nothing to help your cause. In fact, it probably makes things more difficult to be accepted. I think more people would be more accepting of homosexuals if they didn't see scenes on the news showing men in leather g-strings practically fellating each other on a public street. That can't help anyones cause.

I hope that doesn't make me sound intolerant?

No, it doesn't. I've made that same point many times before, as have most of my gay friends.

I'm a Petanko who likes Petankos. and regularly attend sankaku complex without a login. i also look extremely young for my age. which i decline to specify. i also have a tomoyou daidouji fetish. i wear a black yukata as often as possible. (i have about 10 or 15) i am a gymnast, 1st degree black belt in kenpo, and a gamer, an anime geek, a small time cosplayer a petanko and a petankophile. unfortunately for you i am not posting any DFC cause it would violate the terms of service. and i prefer not to be photographed. i dropped out of kenpo recently. if you want a simpler name, nekogami-chan works too.

I'm so confused...

Actually, I have gamed with a transsexual person, who I have GMed for, who has GMed for me and who I've played with when both of us are PCs. This person is a male anatomically who has adopted a female persona. She dresses as a woman and otherwise acts as a woman. She often plays female characters, and I enjoy playing with her alot. Her characters are always fresh and well RP'ed. As a GM, she has some very clever ideas and is supportive of gamers who want to try out new races, classes and systems. Playing M:TG isn't so much fun, as she is highly competitive. However, I have little problem with her and we'll go to lunch and otherwise hang out with each other.

Likewise, my gaming group often dislikes its members for their personalities, not their sex or gender. Our group has a man who loves to touch and be touched (he's appropriate, don't worry!), another woman who desires to to be a man one day and considers his gender male, a few women of different sorts and men of all shapes, forms and dispositions.

Our group is very friendly, open and accomodating. We understand that we are not the general population and so are very supportive of each other. Hurtful comments are not tolerated, but appologies are generally well accepted.

My wife says the defining thing about being a "nerd" or "geek" is that you have niche interests that often involve special knowledge, skill, or ability, and aren't considered mainstream. So we are RPG nerds, there are Trek nerds, comic nerds, Ren Faire nerds, etc., even fantasy football nerds for the more macho types among us. If you've ever met a seminarian you will know that there are even theology nerds. I happen to be a scotch nerd (don't hate me). There's a lot of nerd cross-pollination, so to speak, as well. My wife the Ren Faire nerd, who married a D&D nerd, got into D&D; I got into Ren Faires. We were both already lit nerds. She hasn't developed scotch geekery. So to the OP I imagine you find a lot of common ground and experience with other nerds, regardless of our particular "nerd kinks," since we're all outside the mainstream. Being a LGBT gamer is probably about as exceptional, within the RPG community, as being a female gamer or a Christian gamer. Or a 1E grognard.

Me personally, I'm a socially-conservative Southern-born white male Protestant card-carrying member of the military-industrial complex. Demographically speaking, I'm The Man who's keeping you down. But I prefer to relate to people as individuals rather than as members of a demographic. I also believe that you have the right to live your life as you choose whether or not I'd make the same choices, a right I risk my life to defend (I'm not looking for a pat on the back, it's the job I chose, I'm illustrating the value I place on your personal liberty).

Re: gender issues in game. I have always encouraged my players to play their own gender, particularly inexperienced or immature players, in order to avoid weirdness arising from gender stereotypes or outright misogyny/misanthropy (had a teenage male player play a female barbarian type who would do things like seduce random men in taverns, then castrate them and throw them out windows. Clearly some underlying issues with this dude that I did not wish to deal with at the table at that time). With more experienced and mature players I'd be more willing to explore gender issues (and at a deeper level than just "wow look, drow are matriarchal, how evil"); I've certainly explored religion, politics, race, and other serious themes in game. It'd have to be the right group, though, with expectations clear at the start. Different people prefer different kinds of games. For instance, my experience is that anime nerds prefer a more "anime" feel in RPGs than do history/mythology/Tolkien nerds like me, and we have different baseline expectations about what kinds of characters and adventures we like to play. Moods change, too; sometimes I want serious themes and roleplay, sometimes I just want to crawl through a dungeon and indulge in species-ist mayhem.

As for playing with a person like you, I'd hope that we could put aside our out-of-game differences in order to enjoy together this wonderful hobby we love. If you'd feel comfortable gaming with The Man, I'd game with you, however you like to describe yourself.

I've played with gay people, straight people, transgendered people and bisexual people. I've lived with gay people, straight people and bisexual people.

I've played bigots, a gay gnome, a sexually confused raptorian, a sociopathic bisexual assassin and a neutered gecko spy.

At the moment my current character Selin isn't going to let a little thing like sexuality get in the way of her goals, she's going to do what ever it takes for her to claim the Cheliaxian throne.

Personally I just don't care, if you're there to enjoy the game then we'll get along fine.

Unless you can't cope with me being a LARPer...

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

I'm a Petanko who likes Petankos. and regularly attend sankaku complex without a login. i also look extremely young for my age. which i decline to specify. i also have a tomoyou daidouji fetish. i wear a black yukata as often as possible. (i have about 10 or 15) i am a gymnast, 1st degree black belt in kenpo, and a gamer, an anime geek, a small time cosplayer a petanko and a petankophile. unfortunately for you i am not posting any DFC cause it would violate the terms of service. and i prefer not to be photographed. i dropped out of kenpo recently. if you want a simpler name, nekogami-chan works too.

I'm so confused...

Nekogami-chan, you sound so much like someone who would be a friend of mine(or in all likelihood, knows one of my friends). I'm sure you will be welcome here at Paizo, and you are certainly welcome at my table if there is room.

In general response to all upthread:

My identification as a Furry seems to raise more eyebrows than any other flag on my list. This both amuses me, and makes me do the canine headtilt of confusion. In a community so universally accepting, that someone with an interest in anthropomorphic animals would rate more 'I might have a concern with this' than ... almost anything else. I don't dress in costume beyond perhaps a tail and ears, and I'm not someone who has sex in costume or with animals or any of the other things that most people have - in my experience - associated with the umbrella term "Furry". For me, it is equal parts 'I find this intellectually stimulating' and 'this interfaces well with my shamanic belief set'. Furthermore, this is the only thing that I truly consider a 'lifestyle choice'. Most people don't consider their religion a lifestyle choice, heterosexual people don't consider their sexuality a lifestyle choice, I certainly did not choose to be trans (no transperson I've ever met chose that course, who would?) and most of the other flags I apply but haven't discussed aren't choices. This is me going on a tiny bit of a ranty, and for that I apologize. It has always set my hair on end when someone told me I chose my course.

As re: Pride (note the capitalization). Well, that's a bit off topic here (as it was my intention to bring a discussion of 'alternative' to the topic of gaming, but it is a context that many people have with the LGBT community. It is, if you would, the most public face the community has. I've ranted about it myself a lot, and I agree with both viewpoints (both for and against). I am not going to compare Pride to anything else, for it is both unique and ancient. The motto of "We're here, we're queer" really sums it up. People are people, and all have a right in my estimation to be proud of who they are. As for PDA's among hetero vs homo sexuals, well, I think that PDA's are a matter of personal and very subjective opinion. In some parts of the world, a gay person can be arrested (and if memory serves, executed) for holding hands with their same-sex partner. In others, PDA's with same/opposite sex partners is perfectly fine up to and including fondling and groping. Every individual has the right to their opinion on this, and the one thing that always holds true is the inalienable right to Walk Away.

As re: Acceptance vs. Tolerance (which seems to be a theme in responses, but has never called attention using those words). Acceptance means just that. "I accept you for who you are, no matter how much it differs from me" is VERY different from "I'll put up with you." with the subtext to the latter 'See how tolerant I am?' Southpark did a good presentation of this, and I never thought I'd say THAT.

As re: Upthread posting regarding specific interests of an adult and consensual manner, well, I will repeat my BDSM mantra. One that has served me through years in 'the scene'. That mantra is "YKOK" it stands for "Your Kink is OK" and represents an openminded approach to something that I neither understand nor have any interest in. I usually paraphrase it to "Don't yuck someone's yum".

As re: not taking one's self seriously, well, that I can definitely and whole-heartedly agree with. One that can not laugh at one's own self is going to be one very sad panda in my opinion. There are many things that are INCREDIBLY funny to me about my course in life. Those things may or may not be funny to others in a similar situation. I will laugh for me while crying for someone else in the same circumstance. That's just how I roll.

As re: RP vs Reality. That is the core of the original post. How do people's RP interactions touch on their RL interactions. Leaving sexuality/gender identity/adult content at the door is a choice for players and GM's and has been since the hobby began. Need proof of this? Read "What's New with Phil and Dixie" some time. That is a choice. The person who may or may not be a minority may or may not have chosen their path. I may reword and repeat that a few more times, but I think it fundamental to the discussion at hand.

As re: Mainstream vs Non-mainstream faiths. Some of the nicest people I've ever met have been what I (and they themselves) might consider "fundamentalist Christians" People who, when asked why they voted for George Bush responded "Values". I could sit down with these people and have a long, well considered, reasonable dialogue. One such co-worker, when I went full-time at work and announced that "Dan was becoming Mikhaila" took me aside and explained that she loved me no matter what. She proceeded to learn about the LGBT community and went to bat for me numerous times when other less open minded individuals were talking about me behind my back. And some of the biggest d-bags and a-holes that I know are pagans, shamans, wiccans and other such non-mainstreamers. Another of the nicest people I've ever met was a Voudoun High Priest. Incredibly gentle person who believed very firmly in what he himself calls Black Magic. He would never lift a finger against someone who did not truly deserve it, and most times not even if they did. He patched up knife-fight victims wandering into his store, donated to multiple charities, and was very active in the pagan community in a town I grew up in. People are people.

As re: Expectations, I agree. In all group interactions where adults are a factor, it should be discussed what is and is not acceptable. If I go into a game expecting hack-n-slash and get RP intensive and I get a little nose-wrinkly.

As to GreatKhanArtist, might I just say that your post was the most perfect use of gender pronouns that I've ever seen a person use online that didn't identify as trans themselves. Gold star!

As to Charlie Bell, I would be honored to play with The Man that you are. And I wish that The Man was universally more like you. (And as a side note, Gold Star for creating the Jack Chick alias... wish I'd thought of it first!)

I know I'm not responding line by line, and I normally do, but I'm wanting to get back to sleep before the sleepy wears off. More later, I'm sure.