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In terms of the The Steel Remains, I have never really read anything else where homosexuality in SF/fantasy is full-on. It might be alluded to, it might be mentioned. Another example are the Lion of Macedon/Dark Prince series of books by David Gemmell, set in the Hellenistic period of Greece, where some of the secondary characters are gay warriors (of Corinth, if I recall) where their homosexual bonds are thought to make them fight better for each other. However, there isn't much more than "holding hands" in it (and the main character is definately hetero) and little more than an incidental detail. In a genre where heterosexual sex scenes are certainly not unknown, gay sex is often glossed over.
In The Steel Remains, there are several scenes of full-on gay sex, with the hero banging various males in explicit detail (Morgan's hetero sex scenes in his other books are very full-on too - personally, I find it a bit embarrassing but actually the gay ones in The Steel Remains make a lot more sense in setting character in the context of this book than some of the others, which just seemed sorta slung in there for jollies). It's not judgemental, and the character feels both male, masculine (he's a master swordsman, not a pansy) and authentically gay in a (as Louis puts it) "I like dick - deal with it" sort of way. It's a pretty impressive piece of characterisation, especially since Morgan is (as far as I know) a heterosexual man, and it is something that is pretty unprecedented in anything else I have ever read in the genre. That's not to say that homosexuality hasn't arisen as a subject, but it really has not been as central to the plot as it is in this book (oh, and one of the other protagonists is a drug-abusing lesbian, though she gets no action as such in this volume) nor is it dealt with in such a muscular fashion. That's not to say that such details haven't been central in other books (I'm sure I've read merely a tiny fraction of the available stuff out there) but I'm not really aware of it if it is.
Oh, and Louis (plot spoiler, for those who haven't read it and might like to):
So Louis you believe Gay is only defined by the character existing in a prejudical enviroment?
No. Although I could see how a reasonable person might interpret what I wrote that way.
What I think is that in the 21st century and certainly in, not least, America, gay does exist in a prejudicial environment. My use of "genuine" in this context was meant to be a modifier to the fictional treatment and NOT to imply that a gay person who does not experience the world as prejudicial is therefore not an authentically gay person.
Hooray for that gay person and what's the location? Because a lot of people I know would like to live there, too. That is said without sarcasm.
Rather, what is behind my criteria is simply that the experience of most gay people is the experience of living in a prejudiced, often hostile world. Fiction that ignores this reality may serve to entertain or to hold up an ideal (or some other purpose I'm not thinking of just now), but such fiction is not exploring the genuine experience of most homosexuals.
In short: a contrast between fiction that explores the problem and fiction that whitewashes it.
Or do you think gay does not exist in a hostile, prejudicial environment and, consequently, think there is nothing to whitewash?
In terms of the The Steel Remains, I have never really read anything else where homosexuality in SF/fantasy is full-on. It might be alluded to, it might be mentioned...In a genre where heterosexual sex scenes are certainly not unknown, gay sex is often glossed over...In The Steel Remains, there are several scenes of full-on gay sex, with the hero banging various males in explicit detail (Morgan's hetero sex scenes in his other books are very full-on too - personally, I find it a bit embarrassing but actually the gay ones in The Steel Remains make a lot more sense in setting character in the context of this book than some of the others, which just seemed sorta slung in there for jollies). It's not judgmental, and the character feels both male, masculine (he's a master swordsman, not a pansy) and authentically gay in a (as Louis puts it) "I like dick - deal with it" sort of way. It's a pretty impressive piece of characterization, especially since Morgan is (as far as I know) a heterosexual man, and it is something that is pretty unprecedented in anything else I have ever read in the genre. That's not to say that homosexuality hasn't arisen as a subject, but it really has not been as central to the plot as it is in this book (oh, and one of the other protagonists is a drug-abusing lesbian, though she gets no action as such in this volume) nor is it dealt with in such a muscular fashion. That's not to say that such details haven't been central in other books (I'm sure I've read merely a tiny fraction of the available stuff out there) but I'm not really aware of it if it is.
...
Very well said. I agree entirely. Aubrey, you catch a solid chunk of my meaning. *claps* Well said.
About the dark lord: I took that meaning, too. And I'm ok with anti-hero as the same as hero, as I'm in the camp that sees the "anti" residing in the context and not the character. I'm thinking the dark lord bit also makes thematic and narrative sense: when the world is so hostile, what is the best of men to do but become a power -- even a dark one -- in order to survive or to live up to commitments or for family, etc.? I'm guessing we'll find these themes plus power corrupts become central to the series.
As an aside, my friend - who is gay, a bibliophile, and to whom I recommended the book - wept after reading it. He said he felt recognized and validated in fiction for the first time. This is anecdotal and not meant as evidence of anything, but I think Morgan is doing something very special -- on top of writing a top-notch yarn -- with this work.
Rather, what is behind my criteria is simply that the experience of most gay people is the experience of living in a prejudiced, often hostile world. Fiction that ignores this reality may serve to entertain or to hold up an ideal (or some other purpose I'm not thinking of just now), but such fiction is not exploring the genuine experience of most homosexuals.In short: a contrast between fiction that explores the problem and fiction that whitewashes it.
Amen. The Last Herald-Mage trilogy is somewhere in the gray area here, leaning towards but not quite a whitewash. Vanyel likes guys, meets a hot guy who helps him overcome his hangups about liking guys, and gets a very negative reaction from his family. But aside a few mentions of random people, generally off-screen and not important to the story aside his family, Vanyel comes to live in a world where there's no real prejudice against homosexuality. It's implied to exist, but its downplayed very heavily. Instead he gets epic angst about other things.
That's not quite to the extent of pretending hostility and prejudice do not exist (and I suspect it's something close to the real-life circumstances of a lot of gay professionals in certain fields, especially if they live in the right places) but they rarely enter one's life as daily realities.
Rather, what is behind my criteria is simply that the experience of most gay people is the experience of living in a prejudiced, often hostile world. Fiction that ignores this reality may serve to entertain or to hold up an ideal (or some other purpose I'm not thinking of just now), but such fiction is not exploring the genuine experience of most homosexuals.In short: a contrast between fiction that explores the problem and fiction that whitewashes it.
I agree with you, but in both Fantasy and Scifi there is this fallacy in thinking that society (in reference to anything, but homosexuality is a prime example) works the same, as well anywhere in the 21st century.
IMO, creating a Fantasy setting where everyone reacts to things like homosexuality like modern America does, is more unbelievable than the magic. And it seems insulting to authors to say that they didn't write "genuine" gay heroes just because they had a different social setting.
In short: a contrast between fiction that explores the problem and fiction that whitewashes it.
This sort of invisible standard applies as well to fantasy settings where women, blacks, asians, etc. just sort of co-mingle in the same social grouping or 'generic fantasy country' with no mention whatsoever of gender differences, racial divides, etc.
By removing any potentially controversial 'blackness' or 'femininity' or whatever from the characters, that sort of setting, to me at least, feels sort of like watching a Greek play, where the women are played by men dressed up as women. Every character is just a white man, even if they appear to be black, asian, female, etc. making it, again, IMO, the exact *opposite* of inclusive.
Oh hey, let's make this character superficially black/gay/female, just so that we can say, 'Look at how open-minded we are!' but not actually make the character in any way culturally or socially or personally distinctive from the white dudes surrounding them.
In short: a contrast between fiction that explores the problem and fiction that whitewashes it.This sort of invisible standard applies as well to fantasy settings where women, blacks, asians, etc. just sort of co-mingle in the same social grouping or 'generic fantasy country' with no mention whatsoever of gender differences, racial divides, etc.
By removing any potentially controversial 'blackness' or 'femininity' or whatever from the characters, that sort of setting, to me at least, feels sort of like watching a Greek play, where the women are played by men dressed up as women. Every character is just a white man, even if they appear to be black, asian, female, etc. making it, again, IMO, the exact *opposite* of inclusive.
Oh hey, let's make this character superficially black/gay/female, just so that we can say, 'Look at how open-minded we are!' but not actually make the character in any way culturally or socially or personally distinctive from the white dudes surrounding them.
But IMO, as a sociology student and I know alot of my professors would agree (I've asked), in a world with elves, dwarves, dragons and such, race would not be a factor, like Terry Pratchett put racism wouldn't exist because everyone was too busy being a speciest. (something like that).
This is different than sexual orientation (in Fantasy settings at least), but still you hate the outsider, the human race would be alot better off if we were invaded by tentacle monsters from another dimension (Yes I side with Ozymandias)
but still you hate the outsider, the human race would be alot better off if we were invaded by tentacle monsters from another dimension (Yes I side with Ozymandias)
"I against my brother, my brother and I against my father, my family against the outsider." was some Romani phrase I heard somewhere.
Alone, my brother and I fight like cats and dogs. When angry father is there, we are allies against him. When there is an outsider in our face, we stand with father against the outsider.
We do indeed tribalize, and have distinctions of difference.
But homophobia is a more insidious fear, I think, and somewhat unique in that sense. If I am a racist, I can darn well *see* if someone is black-skinned or asian or whatever. If I am sexist, I can (generally) tell if someone is a woman. Religious intolerance is trickier, but bigots of that sort will generally have visual cue that they consider signs of being Jewish or Moslem (although they'll be amusingly prone to getting the two confused, and throw some Hindus, Buddhists and dark-complected Christians under the bus in the process). In a world with other sentient races, I'll generally be able to tell if someone is a dwarf or elf or orc or vulcan or twilek or shoggoth.
For the person who lives in fear of the Other, a gay person looks just like any other person (barring some flamboyant exceptions). And, in a society that has, for centuries, encouraged the gay person to live in hiding, marry the opposite gender and 'blend,' this anxiety is only *reinforced.*
I can tell if my neighbor is black. I can tell if my wife is a flesh-eating zombie. I don't necessarily have the slightest clue if my neighbor, or my brother, or my *wife*, or my *son*, is gay, because our society has spend decades, if not centuries, teaching homosexuals that they should hide to avoid persecution, that they have to hide to keep their jobs, that they should hide so as to not lose their friends, that they have to hide or be disowned from their families, in some cases, that their situation is a psychological defect or a spiritual flaw or a sign of sin and wickedness of which they should be ashamed or seek out some 'cure.'
It's the things we can't see, but can only speculate about, that scare us the most, because nothing in the real world can scare you more than your own imagination, making the invisible threats the most terrifying. It's why interrogaters make people wait and wait and wait, keeping them awake, making them tear themselves apart speculating what's going to happen. The *fear* ends when the fist hits flesh. It's why just about every kid gets smacked around or beaten up in the schoolyard at some point in the course of a normal childhood, without PTSD, while someone who is kidnapped, but never physically harmed, might never recover. Bruises heal in days. Nightmares can last a lifetime (and self-reinforce to become worse, instead of better, slowly paralyzing a person into being unable to leave their home or interact with strangers).
To the person who lives in fear of the unknown, the black man on the street, no matter how intimidating looking, is a known quantity.
Tentacle monsters might make racists and bigots take up arms alongside blacks and women without hesitation, but the homosexual remains the invisible menace.
The Tale of Krispos series by Harry Turtledove has one or two prominent gay characters. All the others I've read have already been mentioned.
Also related is the Swords of Videssos series by the same author- the one where a lost roman legion ends up in an alternate magical universe- and one of the side protagonist, a greek healer, is portrayed as gay. Actually, there was some others and in that alternate magical universe is a gay culture that gets featured later on with characters and such.
On a more obscure note, the Silverglass series by pseudonym author J.F. Rifkin, the characters are mostly bisexual (has some early Luis Royo art covers too).
But homophobia is a more insidious fear, I think, and somewhat unique in that sense.
I disagree, I think gay humans would win out over straight dwarves
And, in a society that has, for centuries, encouraged the gay person to live in hiding, marry the opposite gender and 'blend,' this anxiety is only *reinforced.*
NOT centuries less than a hundred years ago, in America we allowed for women to be in lesbian relationships, this was of course during the time of Pure Love Victorian ideals so sex was rarely discussed and from what I can tell it was *wink* *wink* situation, everyone KNEW what was going on, but those weren't the kind of things people talked about in polite company.
I disagree, I think gay humans would win out over straight dwarves
Oh, straight dwarves are easy. You have Tyrion Lannister in A Song of Ice and Fire (although he's actually a human dwarf in the 'real' sense, soon to be played by Peter Dinklage on-screen) and Count Casanunda (World's Second Greatest Lover, Finest Swordsman, Outrageous Liar, Stepladders Repaired) in the Discworld books, who's an unusually libidous 'proper fantasy' dwarf who just prefers the art of seduction to gold and chainmail.
Gay dwarves I haven't encountered in fantasy books yet. I imagine someone's done gay elves at some point though.
In related news, there are a few episodes of Legend of the Seeker that are homoerotic friendly. I remember one episode in the first season (based on Wizard's First Rule) in which two thieves had a magic item that made them look like Kaylin and Richard and they were captured by the D'Harins. Kaylin's lookalike attempts to seduce the guard, but he doesn't quite respond to that. So she had Richard's lookalike seduce him instead.
If you're willing to expand your scope, take a look at the Dragon Age video game.I still haven't tried it. Can you elaborate?
From what I have heard, there is scope to form homosexual relationships between the player and a few NPC or similar. It's factored in as a story theme.
Just saying what I heard, apologies if I'm slightly off aim!
If you're willing to expand your scope, take a look at the Dragon Age video game.I still haven't tried it. Can you elaborate?From what I have heard, there is scope to form homosexual relationships between the player and a few NPC or similar. It's factored in as a story theme.
Just saying what I heard, apologies if I'm slightly off aim!
Okay, here's a youtube video from Dragon Age demonstrating one of the possibilities. It's not graphic, but extremely suggestive. (looks at the terms of posting) Mmmm-kay.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPRlvxd5kpc
Anyway, you can look up Dragon Age Origin videos on youtube. You can probably find anything you could possibly want. (Apparently an age of dragons makes it all possible?)
How is it in RL, everyone makes a big deal out of the gay male elf, but no one says a word about the bi female bard?
Most gamers are straight males. A bi female bard provides fodder for two-girls-one-guy threesome fantasies. This is something that a great many straight males find appealing.
A gay male elf by contrast can provoke:
1) Gay panic
2) Desperate need to assert heterosexuality
3) Confusion
4) All of the above.
How is it in RL, everyone makes a big deal out of the gay male elf, but no one says a word about the bi female bard?Most gamers are straight males. A bi female bard provides fodder for two-girls-one-guy threesome fantasies. This is something that a great many straight males find appealing.
A gay male elf by contrast can provoke:
1) Gay panic
2) Desperate need to assert heterosexuality
3) Confusion
4) All of the above.
Well, to be fair, I've never met an elf, gay or otherwise, in real life.
Concerning Dragon Age: Origins and Fable II.
The only marriage in DA:O is possible in two endings. If you're a female noble you can marry Alistair (a templar knight who joins the Grey Wardens). But if you're male and have developed a relationship with Alistair, he breaks off the relationship to marry the queen. Video Here. Maybe it has nothing to do with gender. Has anyone played a male human noble and followed this route? (I've heard that a male human noble can marry the queen at the end.) It seems like the game allows gay relationships, but not gay marriages.
Fable II on the other hand allows gay marriage, which may be why it is being recognized with a GLAAD award, or potentially so. I don't know all the history behind that, just kind of communicating more grapevine stuff.
EDIT: It is apparently possible to keep Alistair as a lover by "hardening" his personality during one of the quests you accompany him on.
EDIT: In related news, Paizo is featuring Green Ronin's Dragon Age roleplaying game on their front page.
When the OP finishes his/her paper, it would be interesting to ask whether they found the inclusion of homosexual and homosocial relationships were of any real influence, benign or otherwise, or whether they amounted to nothing more than a current trend of inclusion by authors/game designers in order to appear cutting edge/sophisticated?
I've been reading the stories of oz, just starting book 7, and I couldn't help but notice that the descriptions between Dorothy and Princess Ozma seems kind of suggestive. Add to that the fact that Ozma is a "post-magic" transexual (she was transformed into a boy when she was a baby and then transformed back into a girl later, so I guess she is post-post-magic technically), and it gets even more interesting. Also, Dorothy has no male interests, all of the men are either too old (which gets a bit creepy sometimes, especially with the Shaggy Man and his "love magnet") or are asexual (scarecrow, tin woodman, jack pumpkinhead, tick-tock, etc).
Now, I'm not saying Dorothy was a homosexual but with text like this, one has to wonder.
Everything about Ozma attracted one, and she inspired love and the sweetest affection rather than awe or ordinary admiration. Dorothy threw her arms around her little friend and hugged and kissed her rapturously, and Toto barked joyfully and Button-Bright smiled a happy smile and consented to sit on the soft cushions close beside the Princess.
As an avid Oz fan, I feel the need to speak up (even though I have nothing of substance to say.) Of course, I can't PROVE that isn't what Baum intended, but I just don't read it that way. I always saw Dorothy as being too young to have a sex drive.
Of course, in the end, readers will read what they want into these things. As Werthead and Frostflame commented upthread, Frodo's and Sam's relationship wasn't a sexual one either, but some people will read that into book anyway.
I've been listening to a book on CD of Dragon Keeper by Robin Hobb. I'm not going to finish it, because I find it too slow, but even from what little I heard, the gay element is apparent.
Mercedes Lackey's "The Last Herald Mage" trilogy.
I have a love hate relationship with that series. The characters are openly, unashamedly gay. But then they are put through hell and end up miserable and alone.
Why does this bug me? Until the 1990s, if you had serious gay characters, They had to be monsters, dead or so miserable they wished they were dead by the end of the story. This way nobody would consider acting out on their gay feelings because obviously they would end up alone or dead or some sort of freak.
Boys in the Band = Miserable. 10 = Gay secondary character has his lover leave him by the end of the story. The Last Herald Mage = the gay characters are tortured and die and they only place they reunite is in death. Bleah!
just once, I want the succubus to come up the the party, cast her spell over all the men and yet have the gay dwarf stop her because he's not totally enthralled by her.
The Mercy Thompson Series is a series of urban fantasy novels written by Patricia Briggs that follow the adventures of Mercedes (Mercy) Thompson, a Native American shapeshifter who was raised by Werewolves. The series is set in the Tri-Cities area of Washington state in an alternate world in which Werewolves and certain types of the fae have been forced to reveal themselves to the public.
that has a secondary character of....
Warren, a homosexual werewolf (who is dating Kyle, a well-known divorce attorney) and one of Mercy's closest friends. He is also Adam's third in the pack.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mercedes_Thompson_Series
Mercedes Lackey's "The Last Herald Mage" trilogy.
I have a love hate relationship with that series. The characters are openly, unashamedly gay. But then they are put through hell and end up miserable and alone.
Why does this bug me? Until the 1990s, if you had serious gay characters, They had to be monsters, dead or so miserable they wished they were dead by the end of the story. This way nobody would consider acting out on their gay feelings because obviously they would end up alone or dead or some sort of freak.
Boys in the Band = Miserable. 10 = Gay secondary character has his lover leave him by the end of the story. The Last Herald Mage = the gay characters are tortured and die and they only place they reunite is in death. Bleah!
I can see what you're saying, but, for better or worse, very little modern fantasy literature has a happy ending for the hero. (Maybe it's seen as too cliche? I don't know.)
I certainly don't think Mercedes Lackey was trying to stifle any gay feelings, since her treatment of gay characters tends otherwise to be very positive (I'm including that dreadful book "Bedlam's Bard" in this). I think in "Last Herald Mage", she was a writing an epic trilogy, and I'm coming up empty-handed on epic trilogies where everything works out in the end for the heroes.
That said, I personally wouldn't mind a "happily ever after" once in a while.
