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Like the others, I'm not 100% keen on your idea, but I''ll certainly give it a try and see how it rolls if that's the general consensus.
Of all of the PbPs I've been in, I think Pat's way of handling Combat is probably the one I like the most. He rolls Group Initiative (which I can take or leave - it simply means that every battle has the same order, it just differs when the bad guys go) but asks for everyone's Posts in no set order. He then ties them all together and narrates what happened for the Round at the end. He also gives what each person is doing during the round next to their name in the Initiative order as an occasional update (more often if he is waiting on someone).
Okay. I am running a trial combat here. This is just a hack-and-slash to work on DMing combat in PbP. Feel free to drop in with your characters. Obviously, it's not "canon". I'll keep it up until i'm ready to start the main game (which is looking like Monday - I've got some unforeseen spare time this weekend).
I am having fun playing around with this build... a lot of fun!
I am basically using the Inquisitor as the basis for a Rogue Character. I was thinking of taking 2 levels of Rogue and then going into Shadow Dancer later on (around 10th Level), but I am now actually considering only doing 1 level of Rogue at 2nd and then taking a few levels of Shadow Dancer when I can (at either 5th or 7th level). I am liking the idea of concentrating on Inquisitor and splashing between Rogue and Shadow Dancer here and there.
It's also a new concept for me, as all of my other Rogues (OK not all) have been Arcane Rogues, where as Syndessa is a Divine Rogue.
I'm going to be away this weekend, and I'm leaving in a couple of hours, so I'll drop out of the combat trial for now to avoid slowing things down for you, would it be okay for me to jump in on Monday?
More than okay. I'm just fooling around with the combat. Hopefully, everyone will be ready for Monday, but I'll work in a way for some late starters to join in, if necessary.
Two things:
First, does anyone have a copy of an electronically editable Pathfinder character sheet (i.e. one I can fill in without having to print it first)?
Second, I wanted to point out that the free masterwork weapon was intended for those characters that took a feat for a specific weapon (e.g. Exotic Weapon (Aldori Dueling Sword), or Weapon Focus (longsword)). This was meant to help characters who specialized, as they may not be able to use the first bit of good gear you find (like a magic axe, or an intelligent glaive). You are, of course, free to buy any MW weapon you can afford from your starting cash.
Does anyone have a copy of an electronically editable Pathfinder character sheet (i.e. one I can fill in without having to print it first)?
Yep, it's an electronic version of the one I use when playing Pen & Paper. I'll mail you a copy. :)
EDIT: It's a big file though, so it will take a couple of minutes to upload.
EDIT EDIT: And it's done. Check your e-mail... :D
Just a quick note regarding the sample combat; it's a GM's prerogative to roll certain checks on a player's behalf if a character is unaware of the roll or the reason for it. These rolls are usually various skill checks, such as Perception, Sense Motive, etc. If a character is aware of the situation that generates the need for a roll, however, the player is the one that needs to make it. This is especially true of combat rolls and damage.
I know you're just trying to speed things along, but if we aren't allowed these things the game is no longer comprised of a GM and a group of players. We become co-GMs under you, and our player characters are essentially reduced to another group of NPCs.
Second, I wanted to point out that the free masterwork weapon was intended for those characters that took a feat for a specific weapon (e.g. Exotic Weapon (Aldori Dueling Sword), or Weapon Focus (longsword)). This was meant to help characters who specialized, as they may not be able to use the first bit of good gear you find (like a magic axe, or an intelligent glaive). You are, of course, free to buy any MW weapon you can afford from your starting cash.
You have to realize, that's a 300-gp advantage you're giving out based on a requirement that some characters can't even qualify for, even if they're playing a concept that would want to specialize in a specific weapon. At higher levels that's not going to be a huge concern, but it can skew the power curve among the group at lower levels, and especially at level one, if you don't allow a similar boon to all characters in a form that they can utilize.
Just a quick note regarding the sample combat; it's a GM's prerogative to roll certain checks on a player's behalf if a character is unaware of the roll or the reason for it. These rolls are usually various skill checks, such as Perception, Sense Motive, etc. If a character is aware of the situation that generates the need for a roll, however, the player is the one that needs to make it. This is especially true of combat rolls and damage.
I know you're just trying to speed things along, but if we aren't allowed these things the game is no longer comprised of a GM and a group of players. We become co-GMs under you, and our player characters are essentially reduced to another group of NPCs.
I understand where you're coming from, but it just seemed sensible to go from "I draw my crossbow and look for targets" to "a target appears, you fire, [roll], you hit". It's not like I made any tactical choices for the players. Is it that you wanted to make the "roll", or did I do something other than what you intended?
Fortunately, that's why I'm running this sample combat, so I can avoid any mis-steps or faux pas when the game starts.
I understand what your trying to do, but as a player it makes it seem like you have no real impact in the fight. I mean a pbp GM making AoO's to keep the fight moving is one thing, but making all the attacks and damage roll and every roll puts the players as spectors not playing but mostly watching
Also I agree on the masterwork weapon, I don't mind giving mine up at all, but everyone should get one free or no one should, as your giving some players 350+ gp free while giving the others nothing but a sorry for your luck.
I don't have a fillable sheet. Just tend to use the profile alias for everything. Will remove the masterwork weapon, but perhaps in the sense of keeping things fair, those of us how don't really benefit from the weapon could use the wealth for something else? I am thinking that a half-strength cure light wounds wand would help our oversized cleric-less party.
As for the way you are running the mock battle, I am willing to give it a chance over the next few days, however my son is pretty ill and my wife is heavily pregnant so posting may be reduced.
Treat Den as a ....he's just been sick again!.....treat Den as a back row healer.
Cheers
Hehe, I know. That's why I'm speaking up; in an actual game I'd bite my tongue unless a situation became truly unbearable.
I understand where you're coming from, but it just seemed sensible to go from "I draw my crossbow and look for targets" to "a target appears, you fire, [roll], you hit". It's not like I made any tactical choices for the players.
Actually, you did end up making a tactical choice on behalf of a PC. Orin didn't use a Ready action to fire a bow; without stating an action linked to the specified event, such a tactic becomes a Delay action. Delays allow a player to evaluate the progress of a battle before acting, and though in most cases it would result in a primary attack as usual, I know I've taken an almost identical action to what was posted, only to drop my bow and engage a more promising opponent in melee.
Another risk to consider with the current format is the consequences of not following initiative order. Once again, it had little effect this round. But, for example, if Thumparr had suffered a particularly devastating hit from the crossbow volley, it should be reasonable to expect Fenna to move in and heal the dwarf rather than fire a shot from her crossbow. Once again, your narrative removes such choice.
Is it that you wanted to make the "roll", or did I do something other than what you intended?
We need to be able to make the rolls ourselves, but we also need to avoid the latter situation. I'm not sure if you noticed, but an attack roll was actually made by Thumparr. I think you overlooked it in your haste to move the combat along, and you ended up making the same roll independently. It didn't become an issue in this case, as both rolls were very close to one another, but it would have been more of a concern if, for example, Thumpar had rolled a natural 20.
*Ninja'd by HA*
Okay, I think I see the problem. It looks like I just have to be a little more clear on the initiative actions. I agree with what HA said, I just hadn't realized what I'd done.
My question is, how long do you leave a player to post his action? For example:
DM - "Roll initiative"
Player A "19"
Player B "15"
Player C "12"
DM - "Okay, player A, what do you do?"
Player A "I attack the nearest orc with my axe, Attack 18, Damage 5"
DM - "Great, you hit for 5 points. Player B?"
Player B "*crickets* *tumbleweed* *clock ticking* *pages ripped from calendar*"
Is there a way around this? I'm trying to keep the feedback loop as short as possible.
You have to realize, that's a 300-gp advantage you're giving out based on a requirement that some characters can't even qualify for, even if they're playing a concept that would want to specialize in a specific weapon. At higher levels that's not going to be a huge concern, but it can skew the power curve among the group at lower levels, and especially at level one, if you don't allow a similar boon to all characters in a form that they can utilize.
It's a hold-over from my table-top games. I found that players tended to either avoid taking weapon-specific feats like Exotic Weapon because, really, how many enchanted Gnomish Hooked Hammers are you likely to find? Or else they had to choose between the longsword that they've taken feats in (like Weapon Focus), or the enchanted axe they just found.
I can modify the adventure, of course, so that you find treasure matching your feats, but it still kind of makes exotic weapons a little less exotic.
Still, this was just an off-hand reference to an old house-rule of mine. I'm not really sold on it. Just keep your MW equipment, and we'll call that a signing bonus from the Swordlords.
Is there a way around this? I'm trying to keep the feedback loop as short as possible.
Initiative is probably a safe thing for you to roll on everyone's behalf, if you'd like. It's not so much an action, as it is a base statistic representing a character ability to react to a given situation. This is especially true if there's a possibility of a surprise round.
In the first post of the combat, then, you can include initiative order, setting description, links to maps, etc. If NPCs act before the PCs, include their actions in the initial post as well.
Next you wait for the first block of PCs to act. You can consider a block to consist of the PCs in the initiative order that get to act before NPC elements alter the current field of play. Such elements are usually the turn of NPC opponents, but can also represent traps and other delayed or readied actions triggered to activate at a specific time. It can also represent the actions of multiple PCs in a row; generally 3-5 consecutive actions of player characters can dramatically change the field of play, and after such a group of actions the field may need to be described again. If you'd like, include a deadline for these actions to be made, after which you select an action or outcome for the character yourself.
Then summarize the results of the first block's actions, the result of the actions by the NPC elements, and how the combat area has been effected. This is followed by a call for actions by the next block of PCs. Play continues in such a manner until the combat concludes.
Like others have said, Init rolling is fine, as are AoO's and stuff like sense motive and perception for a surprise. As for how long, as folks are all spread about give 24/hours maybe a bit longer if ya have a player in Au as they tend to be well off the standard timezone track, a day ahead and all
Ya might want to experiment with Init rolling, use group or have one person roll, or roll yourself and just use everyone's mod on that one roll
Imagine you're a player and all your GM allowed you to do was move your character aound the battlemat while he rolled all your attacks and damage rolls. You would soon lose interest and feel almost like a puppet run by your GM.
Half the fun of playing comes from being able to roll the dice and see what happens. Otherwise you feel like you don't have control of your characters destiny.
I really don't get what the arguments are all about.
The scenario was set up, we rolled dice via Invisible Castle or some other homemade, honor system (at least most of us did) and Uriel wrote out what happened, taking into account the "monsters" actions as well and how he thought our characters would react.
If you've an arrow or bolt ready to fire and a target presents itself, and you've submitted attack/damage rolls, the DM shouldn't have to put the game on hold and ask you IF you're going to fire! Same thing for walking into a room with your weapon in hand and a foe jumping out of the shadows to attack you.
Do you attack/defend or do you ask for directions? C'mon! It's not that hard to figure out.
But I need to know as a player whether this game is crawl along waiting for all nine of us to post where a combat round can take a week of real time and where rules lawyers are gonna hawk and spit over every issue...or are we gonna submit actions (either in roleplay or combat) and let the DM narrate what happens?
We're not sitting around a table here, guys, where we can spend four hours debating over how we should run a combat.
You're doing a fine job, Jake and you're sure as hell much more patient than I am. I just need to know before I continue with this game.
-g-
If you've an arrow or bolt ready to fire and a target presents itself, and you've submitted attack/damage rolls, the DM shouldn't have to put the game on hold and ask you IF you're going to fire! Same thing for walking into a room with your weapon in hand and a foe jumping out of the shadows to attack you.
Readying a weapon is a lot different than attacking. And several folks didn't provide attack/damage rolls. That's where the concern is.
I think everyone here's for moving a PbP along at a steady pace. But we don't want to speed things up to a point where it costs us our player actions. Most of us have played in multiple PbPs before, and similarly most of us, including yourself, are speaking from experience on the issue.
Ok Im asking the whole party now that we're here do you want a healer or should we wing it till some one bites the dust???
I can play a cleric...a war based cleric but a cleric none the less
you know please my son seek solace if that doesnt work I will take and axe and motivate you.
church muscular.
please as always give the noob advise
I don't really have too much of a problem with how Uriel GM'd the first round.
Yes he missed a few things and yes he made a couple of rolls he probably should have waited for others to post, but as he said this is a learning curve for him as far as PbPs go.
We gave him his feedback and he needs to feel comfortable adapting that feedback to how he runs the game. I think that he should play out this combat before we all start burning him at the stake.
Just my 2cp
:)
eh we can invest in wands, I have UMD so ya don't have to have a healer, they are nice but not must haves
And there are a few of us who can use Cure Wands as well. Syndessa would be a perfect candidate for these, as her battlefield role will be to stealth around and take pot shots where she can, then engage once she has been targeted. Hanging around and zapping people with Cure Wands is a short walk from this model. :)
Like others have said, Init rolling is fine, as are AoO's and stuff like sense motive and perception for a surprise. As for how long, as folks are all spread about give 24/hours maybe a bit longer if ya have a player in Au as they tend to be well off the standard timezone track, a day ahead and all
Ya might want to experiment with Init rolling, use group or have one person roll, or roll yourself and just use everyone's mod on that one roll
You said that on purpose... right? ;)
24/hrs is a good model. I know there are some days when I get home from work and my mind just isn't into PbPs, so I can miss a day here and there. Plus I tend not to small talk around PbPs and will only post when necessary (combat being the major posting time for me). That being said, it really does depend on the character, but I do tend to play a lot of background/support style characters.
I don't dislike Group Initiative, but I prefer rolling individually. It just gives that element of randomness instead of everyone going in the same order for every combat.
I don't really have too much of a problem with how Uriel GM'd the first round.
Yes he missed a few things and yes he made a couple of rolls he probably should have waited for others to post, but as he said this is a learning curve for him as far as PbPs go.
We gave him his feedback and he needs to feel comfortable adapting that feedback to how he runs the game. I think that he should play out this combat before we all start burning him at the stake.Just my 2cp
:)
Well said - I agree completely.
A reminder: The game starts tomorrow. I'll put in the first posting tonight, and we'll see how this goes.
Since we have plenty of people, I'm going to keep this moving at a fairly brisk pace. If someone doesn't come in on Monday, we'll just say they haven't shown up yet from Brevoy, and hopefully with people dropping in and out as their schedules permit, we'll be able to keep going nicely.
I've taken to heart a lot of the lessons I've learnt about PbP styles in the past few days. Hopefully, I'll be able to run somethign that pleases everyone, but, as I said, we've got plenty of people if people aren't having fun.
Don't forget: If you haven't done so already, please make sure you've created an alias for your character, with all the relevant details about your character.
Looking forward to it.
Uriel
I am sorry if this has caused you problems and do wish you the best of luck in your game
ugh... sorry for my absence guys... I've not had a chance to even look at Paizo for the last couple of days. Work has been kicking my arse. :(
I've been working a couple of 10 hour days, which normally wouldn't bother me, but the air con at work is broken and working 10 hrs in 35 degree (celcius) heat has left me totally drained at the end of the day and I've not had the energy to do much at all (plus the fact I have a 4 and 2 year old wanting to run me ragged when I get home).
I'll try and get an update up tonight after the kids are in bed.
Sorry again.
I fear for this game.
Having a break for Easter may seem a good idea but it couldn't have come at a worse time. A good energised start to a pbp is vital, but so far this game is stuttering and stopping.
Losing two of the players may not be a bad thing when the two concerned were not being very supportive of the DM, but who of the seven remaining are keen to see this through? Keen to post? Keen to carry on?
Kingmaker is the one pbp that I have wanted to be in for a long time. Personally if we have a break, then the first few posts will be all about who is in and wants to play and who doesn't. I'd be surprised if we aren't starting from scratch again. Uriel, you are the DM and I will abide by any decision you make involving the game, I will also try to be loyal, but if you are having second thoughts then now is the time to say.
If not, then why stop when we have only just started?
Cheers
Hey, I'm more than happy running with the game, I'm just not entirely sure how to proceed.
Firstly, at this point I'm not entirely clear who is still playing. There are some players who have yet to make a single post in the main game. Are they no longer interested? Or were they expecting the game to start after Easter as originally intended?
Secondly, I'm not sure how to advance the plot. I don't want to push ahead too fast and not give people a chance to participate, but at the same time, the group doesn't appear to be developing a consensus on how to proceed.
Kingmaker is the least "on-the-rails" AP I've seen from Paizo. It is a game of exploration and discovery, directed and controlled at the whims of the party. Your characters have been given a very open-ended task: To explore 36 miles East and West of Oleg's Trading Post, and 60 miles South. While doing so, you are to explore, chart, and deal with bandits and monsters as you see fit.
If everyone wants to keep going now, no problem. But some more inter-character dialog, discussion and consensus will be required if you are going to succeed as a group.
From what I can tell, we've still got 6 players left, Syndessa being the only one yet to post. We've got:
Fenna, Muk, Den, Orin, Sasha and Syndessa.
From what I've seen in PbPs, when a few people have an idea and post about it, most others tend assume that's what the group going with and don't post on the issue unless they disagree with it. That said, I wouldn't have a problem with you ruling that everyone needs to post on the issue before we act.
I just lost my response Uriel. It took over an hour to write. Not happy.
Maybe later I'll find the time to try again but the main points are these;
1) You have five or six players which is good. Look after them.
2) Be hard and recruit new players if people don't post. The game comes first.
3) Keep things moving, post often but take a break at the weekends if need be.
4) Research other games that are successful like Seekers Savage Tide and Aubrey's two games. That should help with many of your questions, especially in combat.
5) There is a thread on help for DM's in this section. Read it please.
6) We wanted to play a sandboxy game, nudge us from time to time but just keep things moving. Ask questions and say you will move on,.
7) Draw a rough map handout that we can gradually fill in as we explore. Use it as a tool to keep us going.
8) The leaders like Den and Muk will emerge over time.
9) You are trying hard, that enthusiasm is what will make the game a success. Keep it up and you will get there.
Sorry to be blunt but like I said, I lost the fluffy version. Of course if you are not enjoying this yourself then bite the bullet and say so. We are all big boys here and can find other games...
Cheers