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Thanks for the well-wishes and good thoughts. One nice thing about having a baby: I have an excuse to put my feet up and get some rest!
I'll see if I can put something together later today or this evening then. Nothing that moves the action along, though. This will be intraparty roleplay only until JSL says he's ready to continue.
Sounds good to me. Ready whenever you are. I need to get back into the swing of writing, and it would nice to get some closure on this adventure rather than just abandoning it or letting it fizzle.
Question: How often do groups actually finish adventures, either in RL or PbP? I imagine even at a convention, a group might get through a little vignette, but certainly not a whole chapter, let alone the complete AP. A couple of months ago, I would have thought that this group could sustain its storytelling almost indefinitely. What's your experience? I'd like to be able to set some realistic expectations here.
Thanks for the well-wishes and good thoughts. One nice thing about having a baby: I have an excuse to put my feet up and get some rest!
It's not an excuse, you earned it! ;) Enjoy it whilst you can, I know it ends all too soon!
Sounds good to me. Ready whenever you are. I need to get back into the swing of writing, and it would nice to get some closure on this adventure rather than just abandoning it or letting it fizzle.
I agree! It has been a fun year! Lots of great writing by everybody! If we cannot continue after this scenario I understand completely, but let us at least finish this one with a bang! I, personally, will be extremely sad if this thread disappears before we can reach the 'end' of the adventure. With all of the excellent work put into it, (By both DM & players!) I think that our collective efforts deserve to reach a suitable ending! (Who knows, with your alls kind permission, perhaps I'll even get off my duff and write some fiction someday, using this thread as the basis. But I wouldn't want to lift your alls Intellectual Property! I just think that all of these posts, properly edited together, would make as good a novel as any I have read!) {And I read WAY too much fiction!}
Question: How often do groups actually finish adventures, either in RL or PbP? I imagine even at a convention, a group might get through a little vignette, but certainly not a whole chapter, let alone the complete AP. A couple of months ago, I would have thought that this group could sustain its storytelling almost indefinitely. What's your experience? I'd like to be able to set some realistic expectations here.
Hm. Good question. I can imagine that everyone's experience is radically different from others, depending upon the composition of your game group, how often you meet, your age (BIG difference between a group of college students gaming time availability and 30-40 yr old family man's! As well you know!) ;)
From the few Conventions I have managed to attend, I can tell you that the scenarios are radically smaller. In a convention you might have the opening fight of this thread, (without all of the 'getting to meet' pre-amble that we had) possibly extended into a shortened version of 'They're in the glassworks, get'em!', and discovering that they entered through the tunnels. Leaving the way to continue later, possibly at another time in the convention. Most of the convention scenarios don't/can't really run much more than that. No matter what level your playing at.
My college game group managed to continue meeting for years after we graduated. (And we still get together when we can) but we varied between a LOT of games. Some, like Champions, we keep going back to mostly for one-shots, but the super hero/comic book mentality lends itself to that kind of play. We ended up playing a Hero-system version of D&D with a home-written campaign that continued almost 3 years, over a year after I got married and moved from OK to Louisiana. (They were nice enough to hold off on the grand finale of the campaign until I could visit for CHristmas and join them).
yada-yada, In short, (too late!) In the past 20 years, my group has played a LOT of games. Limiting it to games that were never intended to be one-shots only, I can say that I think we always finished a published module once we started it. Sometimes we would return to it every week until it was done, sometimes we would start on Sat and not stop playing until the adventure was complete, hopefully before too late on Sunday!
Long (especially home-made from scratch) campaigns tend to fizzle more with us, rarely reaching the 'end' although we usually found a good stopping point. Though there were exceptions like the one mentioned above that we had to finally say "i think we've done all we can do here. It's time to end this, let's get the bad guys!".
As far as PbP, this was my first, though I have joined several since we started! A couple have fizzled due to players just dropping out, one to due to too much on Dm 's plate, the rest carry on, though sometimes with BIG delays due to the health and RL of the DM's. This is the only one using an actual published adventure that I am aware of, so I can't really answer how many PbP's manage to get to the end, yet.
I agree with your statement, A couple of months ago I would have laid money not only on whether this group COULD keep up the writing indefinitely, but I would have bet that we WOULD! I don't know if we would have the same dynamics if we met at a convention or somebody's house in RL, but for the purpose of this PbP we have found a rare and dynamic combination of personalities and talent that have meshed into a cohesive, dynamic, enjoyable cooperative story-telling experience! I'm glad that I was lucky enough to get into this game!
ACK! Time flies, and I type too slow. Haveta go to work now! LIke Dreamer I'm curious to see how everyone else's experiences have been with gaming/ finishing adventures/ etc.
Laters!
Question: How often do groups actually finish adventures, either in RL or PbP?
You always ask the most interesting and conversation-invoking questions. As a result, I have a long response, but I'll spoiler it to trim down the amount of paging necessary to read it in the primary stream of the forum thread here:
I can tell you that the biggest component to maintaining games for that long is primarily luck and hard work. Luck is sometimes what you make of it, though...particulary where it concerns what kind of players you attract to your game. You can manufacture some of your luck by being very specific and up-front about the type of game you intend to run (e.g., story-telling vs. hack-and-slash, free-form vs. plot-driven, etc.) as well as the commitment level you expect from your players before you let them in the game. As long as you clearly communicate those expectations, you can gather a group of players that are very much aligned with what you want to produce as a GM...and players that are much more likely to stick with you for the long-haul.
Otherwise, you just kind of muddle your way through it in a trial-and-error fashion. Playing styles that don't mesh very well start to shake out early, especially when scenes move between combat and roleplay. The story-tellers will relish lots of time in the roleplaying encounters...basically writing a collaborative novel as they interact with one another and the GM's NPCs. The hack-and-slasher's will go into hibernation until the next combat situation arises or the next series of XPs get handed out and it's time to level up. That's when they regain interest and their posting rate or attention level picks up.
I believe, as a GM, if you want to maximize your chances of completing a lengthy campaign, you can't spend too much of your energy trying to hold together players with different gaming styles. It's much easier to find players with the same style and then go from there. Likewise, if you discover players are simply having trouble keeping up with the posting rate or have more absences than the rest of the group, that can detract from the likelihood of finishing. One way to offset that effect is to allow their PCs to come and go, much like JSL has done with Psi/Naelah...or Corran...or now Vesh. You can also inject new enthusiasm and keep up the momentum of a game by injecting new blood. Sometimes that comes in the form of a new PC...like Zieke. Or, it can be generated by the return of a former-PC...like Naelah.
But, as the GM, you can't rely on that forever. Ultimately, if you really want to complete a long-running campaign, you need an established core of reliable players who will act as the primary protagonists of the adventure. Any other PCs who come and go, then become the side-characters in the story. They're not exactly primary actors, but rather, they still have important supporting roles and serve to make a chapter or two more interesting. At the end of the story, it's the core group who get to reflect on the entire journey and how it transformed them. I believe that serves as the best recipe for success. And it's true regardless of what format you're using (i.e., PbP or tabletop).
There are differences between the formats, though. Tabletop lets you go faster and accomplish an adventure or campaign arc more quickly. But, because a lot of gamers are natural introverts, they tend not to open up as much for the in-depth character development as they do in a written format. That's why, a PbP or text-based format often brings out the most amazing and interesting stories for the PCs...to a much greater degree than you'll find at the table. That's because the players feel freer to explore those things behind a keyboard. Their inner storyteller emerges...at least with respect to their PCs and how they react to the adventure.
Oddly enough, one of the best synergies I've ever implemented with these formats is to use Play-by-Post to set up an adventure and introduce the PCs. Then, move to a chat-based session where people can pick up speed in their interaction without having to wait for hours or days between posts. I planned the chat sessions on a weekly basis and they would only run for a couple of hours. And then I'd revert the game back to PbP for the remainder of the week...building up the tension and interplay until the next chat session. I found that we could resolve combat faster than ordinary PbP by postponing it until the chat session. And then I'd let people go crazy on the roleplay via the PbP forum. The chat sessions also served to spur the action when it slowed down. The end result is it gave the game the depth of a PbP format, while also keeping a comparable speed with table-top games when combat erupted or we just wanted to move through a roleplay interaction faster.
So, that's probably more than your original question asked. But I think it's important to understand the differences in gaming when it comes to table-top vs. PbP...and also the universal things you'll find in both where it concerns players and PC interaction. I believe this game has proven very successful because JSL formed a core group of dedicated storytelling players. Almost all of them had a high posting rate, which means they had the time to dedicate to it. And, because of the high quality of roleplay and writing skill they brought to bear, it just reinforces the next player's interest and enthusiasm for keeping it going. And that holds true for the GM (i.e., JSL), too. When your players are engaged at that level, all the hard work and pain involved in running a game becomes totally worth it.
Like any job, if you love it, it no longer feels like a job because you're so entertained by it. But, if your players lose interest or the core group falls apart or lags behind in their posting, all that hard work comes back to the forefront and the entertainment aspect diminishes. That's how potentially long-running games fall apart. Some GMs and players are better at pressing through those rough periods than others. And some just aren't cut-out for the long games and gravitate more to the one-shots or short mini-campaign arcs.
I also believe that PbP games can never expect to keep pace with the tabletop version. Thus, pulling off the full Rise of the Runelords campaign would be a marvelous feat for a table-top group...but almost impossible for a PbP group...just because of the difference in speed within the game's progression. That's why just the completion of the first installment of Rise of the Runelords (i.e., "Burnt Offerings") is still a major achievement for a PbP game. It's a self-contained story and has it's own logical stopping point. But, for a table-top game, you'd probably only get a handful of sessions or a few months out of it. In a PbP format, however, you can see how much longer it's lasted. So, I think GMs have to recognize that difference in the formats, and then budget their time and planning for the campaign they wish to run.
Just my two-cents,
--Neil
Ok, Dreamer recently brought it to my attention that you were trying to get the game going again, and sorry it took a bit for me to get back to you.
To be honest, my enthusiasm for continuing is pretty minimal since it'd just be until the end of the chapter (which is what I remember JSL's plan being).
Its been a great group, and I've very much enjoyed playing with all of you, but I have limited time right now and I'd rather spend it focusing on a game that's going to continue.
And so, I'm going to have to bow out.
Have fun and I wish you all the best, and hope to get an opportunity to play with you again sometime.
-Dario
Oh, and grats on the kid Dreamer and JSL.
Wow. It seems our numbers are rapidly shrinking.
Arctaris -- It was nice to play with you. Your presence will be missed.
Fabes -- I'm glad to see you're still around.
It seems like PsiFox's last post was about the same time Elsir Vale ended.
NSpicer -- My intention wasn't to escalate intraparty conflict too high; I hope it's clear in the end that Salome won't go running off by herself, but will fulfill her duty to the town and the group. After she re-centers herself, Salome is still going to talk to Hannah.
Rags -- Can Slidell wave a magic wand or something and help get us on track? Or maybe JSL? For me, this is starting to feel a little like the part in "Noises Off!" when the director steps in as [yet another] understudy for the drunk burglar.
"Oh, it's our social worker!" improvises one of the cast members. "You know. THE NICE MAN WHO TELLS US WHAT TO DO."
*sigh* Good luck to us.
NSpicer -- My intention wasn't to escalate intraparty conflict too high; I hope it's clear in the end that Salome won't go running off by herself, but will fulfill her duty to the town and the group. After she re-centers herself, Salome is still going to talk to Hannah.
I know. And Zieke isn't trying to escalate things either. His hard stance with Salome is an effort to try and shake her up. And, I wasn't really sure where to go with the comment about Salome's "dip" in the river...but hopefully, I handled that okay. In a lot of ways, I feel like Zieke and Salome make excellent candidates for confiding in one another...and supporting one another as well...all in an effort to do the right thing.
--Neil
It's been a great group, and I've very much enjoyed playing with all of you, but I have limited time right now and I'd rather spend it focusing on a game that's going to continue.
And so, I'm going to have to bow out.
Best wishes, Dario/Arctaris. Thanks for playing with me in several different games so far.
--Neil
Hey Arc, thanks for playing with us. I'll miss you. (But hopefully I'll get to catch back up on my lurking soon and see you in action in your other games!)
Best wishes, etc, yada yada, I hope to get to play with you some more! ;)
Dreamer, LEt me see what I can do,...
(THERE'S something that I should look into adding to Sli's inventory!, but it would run out of charges in 2 days, tops!) ;P
Laters,...
FYI...
I'll be flying cross-country to San Diego tomorrow and won't be back home until Friday evening. I suspect I'll be without internet access, but who knows? I may be able to look in on the game, but don't hold me to it. For any interactions coming up that might involve my character, just wing it and I'll try to pick up when I get back.
Thanks,
--Neil
So... I'm interested in DMing a new game. 4 0r 5 players to start off with, maybe run two separate groups if the interest is there.
1) 4E core game - all the core assumptions in place, taking place in Nentir Vale and environs
2) Swords and sorcery Conan style game using this system ZeFRS (I am too lazy to link but you can google) :D
OR these others have occured to me:
3) 4E swords and sorcery - martial classes only with multiclassing into warlock and wizard
4) 4E Wuxia - martial artists fly around fighting Oni and Shirokinukatsukami (not really) :D
The last two I'm less keen on initially than the first two.
You know me Fabes, always willing to bite off more than I can chew!
So, 4E , NEntir vale, continuation of our test drive? or starting afresh? And would it be ok if we used our test characters?
I'll have to google the other, but whatever you're up for, Count me in!
Speaking of counting, Has anybody heard from Psifox lately?
LAters,...
Rags - I've got 4 other peeps from different threads to go with a 4E game. I've had a rethink, and could you create a new PC rather than Ben, just in case we do get a JSL crew 4E game going?
I'll start a discussion thread soon.
Heh, sure thing.
Just don't be surprised if he bears a striking resemblance to Ben, in stats OR in manners!;)
Laters,...
Hey @JSL, Dreamer, et all,...
Just checking in.
How is everything going on the new improved home front J&D? I know that a newborn is a handful, and you already HAD a handful! ;) Any ideas yet on when you want to/can start up again?
MAinly I ask because every post I try to write in my head just ends up being a little TOO Holmes-ian for me.
(Yes, I know I based 1/2 of Sli on Holmes, but it had been years since I read any Doyle. I JUST finished re-reading the first half of the collected Sherlock Holmes. I had Completely forgotten what an arrogant @$$ he could be at times!) ;P
So, Other than I'm getting busy at work, and managed to catch the creeping crud from my kids, (How come they never share what I WANT them to?!?!) Life is otherwise back to normal. For now.
I'm gonna try to get SLi updated tonight or tomorrow, and post a reprint from Sant@'s last few posts about our monetary gains. Hopefully that will allow us to finish the weapons upgrades/created items quickly.
LAters,...
Hey @JSL, Dreamer, et all,...
Just checking in.How is everything going on the new improved home front J&D? I know that a newborn is a handful, and you already HAD a handful! ;) Any ideas yet on when you want to/can start up again?
I don't know what JSL's plans are; he's still busy, I know, and will be out all day tomorrow at a Minis pre-release. Meanwhile, we've had family visiting in & out for the past 3 weeks and everything that goes with that. The last wave will pass this weekend.
The soonest I'll be able to post will be Sunday evening. I'm still planning on that dream and a visit to Hannah's; maybe on the way to or from, Salome can give Sli her shopping list (I think he'd enjoy perusing magical items and picking out wands more than she would -- I'm also open to suggestions). It just occured to me that a side-effect of lost manpower is greater per-person $$$ resources. How can we best take advantage of that? An armor/weapon upgrade would be useful, no?
Finally, life with baby is good. The hardest part is actually keeping up with the energeic and opinionated 2-year-old. The sibs like their baby sister, but I think we will be relieved to get back to a routine without visitors. And I have to go back to work in a week (clients await!).
Good to hear!
Glad everything seems to be going well. Or at least as well as you expected it too! Going back to work always stinks for me. I hope you have a happy return!
Just remember to give the 2 yr old extra hugs, and all will be well! (FOr BOTH of you!) ;)
Just let us know when your ready to start back up. I was perusing the old posts for the actual post with the loot totaled already, but all I found was the loot list. (Did I mention that I hate math,... a lot?!?)
Will redivide the loot among the remaining 5 (Hoping that Psifox is still with us!) and we should have a little more $$$ per person than before. ANd SLidell still has most of his left over from previous!
Sli is planning on buying a metamagic feat, and a regular 1st level wand. I know the wand cost (i think) and I know teh feat will cost 4points (as it is 1 point per current level) but I am unsure how much if any GP it will cost to 'train' the feat.
I believe that a 1st lvl wand, at Caster Level 1, is a 3rd level item? If so, it is 3 craft points, and 350 GP. (Ask JSL, if not it is a 4th lvl item, so 4 craft points and 350 GP) SO Salome could 'create' a 1st lvl wand of CLW as we were discussing earlier at that price to aid in allowing her to use her spells for their actual uses.
LAte, sick, need to go to sleep. Will try to get us all caught up asap. (Man I miss Sant and his [what seemed like] instant math!) ;)
Laters,...
ok, here's what I've got. Tell me if you remember sometehing different.
Sell 6 everburning candles, Sli keeps 2
sell the Masterwork dagger
Sell the doll bed & furniture
All other assorted stuff (skull w/ silver 7 pointed star, books saved from library, etc,) Sli keeps for research
Still Id'ing the jewelry box, glasses and skull cup (ALL magic)so keep for now!
Keep Mithral Ransuer to create a mithral shield or different weapon with,
Keep 3 magic stones for use in creating magic items with (300GP for item costs)
add in mayor's 2,000 GP 'payoff',...
I get all 5 of us left (including Neahlah, PLEASE still be here Psi!) gets 508 GP each.
Use 1 magic stone to transfer fire kukri power to Salomes scimitar,...
Give cold kukri to Neahlah (I believe a Druid can use?) If not, use stone #2 to transfer cold power to Neahlah's Scimitar. (If she needs a better weapon, we might use teh ransuer to make her a masterwork/Mithral scimitar, then transfer the power!)
Salome, use the 3rd magic stone for the cost of creating a wand of CLW!
Just a note, not being weapon/armor heavy, Sli still had 287 GP from earlier in the game! so with this new GP he has 795GP! I can afford to build at least 2 1st lvl items (I think, some cost more than others)
Still looking for the post(s) on the GP cost of training feats bought with craft points,... ;P SLi will definitely be buying a matamagic feat this lvl to prep him for his dream of magical mastery!
LAters,...
Give cold kukri to Neahlah (I believe a Druid can use?) If not, use stone #2 to transfer cold power to Neahlah's Scimitar. (If she needs a better weapon, we might use the ransuer to make her a masterwork/Mithral scimitar, then transfer the power!)
Druids aren't proficient with kukris. Assuming Naelah is still with us (and that seems suspect as PsiFox has gone missing again from a number of games), then we could certainly transition the power to her scimitar (as long as it's masterwork). However, I've got a different suggestion...and it's somewhat selfish, but I think it will serve the party better in the long run.
Salome and Naelah are our two divine spellcasters. Salome is also one of our better spellcasters, period. Given that Vesh won't be tossing or stealing spells with us any longer, it's possible she'll be even more active as a caster than a melee fighter. And if she isn't then Naelah probably will be. As such, I'm going to question the wisdom of putting our two most powerful weapon upgrades in the hands of the cleric and druid. It might be best to upgrade Ehlissa and/or Zieke's weapons instead. They're much more likely to put them to use every round rather than in between spellcasting actions. I'm actually cool with Salome's scimitar getting the fire upgrade...as I think it's very in character for her to have that as a cleric of Sarenrae. But the cold power kukri should be transferred to Ehlissa or Zieke's sword.
Also, since we know we're only playing through the end of "Burnt Offerings" it's a lot less likely we'll have another chance to upgrade our equipment from here on out. So now's the time to power up the warriors if we can. Just my two-cents...but I'd like to hear what the rest of you think?
Salome, use the 3rd magic stone for the cost of creating a wand of CLW!
In my opinion, no matter what else we do, this is the most important item to secure.
Just a note, not being weapon/armor heavy, Sli still had 287 GP from earlier in the game! so with this new GP he has 795GP! I can afford to build at least 2 1st lvl items (I think, some cost more than others)
That's your call. Zieke wouldn't mind an armor upgrade...and I think he's high enough level to do that now under JSL's system...but I'm not sure if I've got the funds for it. He may need a loan from Sli, but let's consult JSL and see.
Still looking for the post(s) on the GP cost of training feats bought with craft points,... ;P SLi will definitely be buying a matamagic feat this lvl to prep him for his dream of magical mastery!
Check the side thread that Sant@ made to keep track of all the rules in play. I kept a link to it in Zieke's profile. Just check the last spoiler section for it.
--Neil
Glad to hear about the baby!
Sorry to hear about the job.
Every once in a while, I just wanna beat my co-workers with a Big, Blue Cluebat too!
I will do my best to help out anybody who has any questions about buying/making any items. I have been the one asking most of the questions in that area!
We have Zieke's input on the upgrade suggestions, anybody else have any other ideas/suggestions?
Sli will probably spend his money making a 1st lvl wand of Color Spray, add another power to his defensive brooch, and scribe a few scrolls. If my calculations are correct, that will almost drain his piggy bank.
I can (and probably will) forgo the defensive enchantment if someone needs the cash for an important upgrade. (IE=Ehlissa or Zieke need a power boost for a sword!)
Laters,...
1.) Disposition of the loot. If any loot has not been resolved, just note it as such. This includes any new purchases.
I still don't quite grasp the nuances of the craft point system. That's mostly because Zieke came into the game at 3rd level and this is really my first level-up where I've needed to use them. Can someone enlighten me as to what Zieke's options might be? If I recall, he's reached the threshold where he can enchant armor? Do I have enough craft points, magic components, and/or gp's to boost his shield or chain shirt to a +1 enhancement? And, if he did that, would he still have enough to transfer the kukri's cold power to his longsword? I'd like to tackle any upgrades in that order. Raise his AC...and then his damage potential...if possible...with what we have on hand. If we can't transfer the kukri, then Zieke could simply carry it as an extra weapon unless PsiFox comes back and wants it for Naelah...or Fabes has enough craft points to incorporate it into Ehlissa's weapon.
2.) Update to fourth level. Please make all appropriate changes in your profile and not the important stuff (updated hp, new feats, etc) in the thread.
I believe I've got all of that covered already. Zieke's character profile is up to date.
3.) Disposition of the PCs. I.e., post an action in game.
I think Salome, Zieke, and Slidell have all carried things forward. Fabes posted Ehlissa's intentions as well. That's our core 4 players with Sant@ and Arctaris dropping out. No one's seen or heard from PsiFox since we went on hiatus. Do we need to post anything further than what we've done to date?
--Neil
I think Salome's 4th level stats are up to date (though I wouldn't mind a proofread from someone more expert than me).
My priorities for upgrades are Wand of CLW and transfer the kukri heat power to Salome's scimitar. A loom for a new prayer rug is just for flavor. :)
Also, since we know we're only playing through the end of "Burnt Offerings" it's a lot less likely we'll have another chance to upgrade our equipment from here on out. So now's the time to power up the warriors if we can. Just my two-cents...but I'd like to hear what the rest of you think?
I will go along with you guys on whatever else you choose to do with loot and/or GP. I simply do not have the base knowledge of items and game economics that you do, and I don't have the time or energy at this point to acquire the knowledge necessary to have an opinion or a plan.
Forgive me for not posting in the game thread yet. Serious lack of brain cells from being on duty 24/7.
OK, here's my (latest) thought,...
No one's seen or heard from Psi, so unless/until he returns, Neahlah's out, which increases our Gp each a little bit, and gives us one less to worry about weapon enhancing.(Though I HOPE he returns! )
Zieke already has the Magic Weapon/1 a day use from his scroll, does it make more sense to give the cold kukri power to Ehlissa's sword, and Zieke can use his craft points and GP for a magic armor enhancement?
Remember, In JSL's system you do NOT have to have a +1 bonus on your item before you can enhance it with another property. So you can have a flaming sword with NO to hit or dmg bonus! Same with armor. I'll peruse the Magic Item Compendium and see if there are any "+1" armor enhancements that might do Zieke better than a +1 AC. That's not much of a bonus, and maybe an armor enhancement that affects an enemy that hits you might be better? LEt me see what there is.
Dreamer, Salome can DEFINITELY afford to build a wand of CLW, and another item of lvl 1 or 2 as well. That's pretty much what SLi is doing. Plus a few scrolls, (WHich Salome can also do! Any spell you can mem can be placed on a scroll! 1st lvl scroll is 1/2 craft point each and 12 GP, a VERY good way to carry spells that you think you might need but don't want to waste a memorize slot on!)
Actually busy at work (college) this week. (Holiday shows, inauguration of new president,... yada yada) will update and post in game asap!
Laters,...
Zieke already has the Magic Weapon/1 a day use from his scroll, does it make more sense to give the cold kukri power to Ehlissa's sword, and Zieke can use his craft points and GP for a magic armor enhancement?
Agreed. Ehlissa's more the cold-hearted kind anyway...LOL! ;-)
I'll peruse the Magic Item Compendium and see if there are any "+1" armor enhancements that might do Zieke better than a +1 AC. That's not much of a bonus, and maybe an armor enhancement that affects an enemy that hits you might be better? Let me see what there is.
I doubt there's anything I'd view as more potent than the +1 armor enhancement . But let me know if something appeals to your inner-Fighter and I'll certainly listen. ;-)
Dreamer, Salome can DEFINITELY afford to build a wand of CLW, and another item of lvl 1 or 2 as well. That's pretty much what SLi is doing. Plus a few scrolls, (WHich Salome can also do! Any spell you can mem can be placed on a scroll! 1st lvl scroll is 1/2 craft point each and 12 GP, a VERY good way to carry spells that you think you might need but don't want to waste a memorize slot on!)
I could see some value in that for spells that would protect the Salome and the rest of the group. Anything to boost our Will saves so we don't turn on one another again like in the Lamashtu shrine. Maybe remove fear or ironguts, etc. Or, if you want to ensure maximum firepower, maybe a scroll with an extra light of lunia, etc. could be useful for the final battle.
Just my two-cents,
--Neil
I guess when we figure out what the financial distribution is and how many craft points will be required for the wand and kukri transfer, I'll spend the remaining on scrolls. (By then, it should be pretty easy to figure out how many scrolls I can make.)
I don't know that Salome will need to purify another shrine, but I think some holy water would also be useful. (I don't know about the silver powder, though.)
I apologize for the length of the post. My dream idea (this was actually idea #3) was very visual and didn't lend itself well to brevity, though I tried to keep it as short as I could. I decided not to post the Hannah visit too (I wrote that weeks ago) -- it needed to be broken up. So I'll post that tomorrow.
Okay, 3rd try at this post! ;P
If Neahlah/Psi is a no-show then we all get to add 635 GP to our booty. If Neahlah DOES return, we each get 508GP.
For easy reference Dreamer,
-a regular wand of 50 charges, 1st lvl spell, CL1= 325GP and 3 Craft Points to make
-scroll (1st lvl, CL 1st) = 12GP and 1/2 Craft Point each
Etc. I found the majority of the formulas listed conveniently on Sant's 'Guide to RotRL' thread. That and rehashed on pages 40-41 of this thread.
OK, shall we consider the following list final unless someone has a better idea?
-use 1 stone to transfer fire Kukri to Salome's Scimitar
-use 1 stone to transfer cold kukri to Ehlissa's Sword. (We can't transfer it to Zieke's sword, as it would replace the crit hit power the big gobbo sword already has. From a pg 40 post by JSL) This WILL stack with the power her sword already has, and make her a little more dangerous when she hits.
-turn mithral ransuer into a mithral buckler or shield. Can then be used by either Zieke or Ehlissa. Probably Zieke, as I get the feeling (both meta-gaming and RP wise) that the big guy is gonna be soaking up a lot of action for our dwindling group!
-Use third stone to cover (or at least mostly cover) enchanting new mithral buckler or shield! Either an extra +1AC or another '+1' shield/armor enhancement.
We then all create/enhance our items and buy feats as best as we can with our loot and craft points.
JSL- QUESTION= would adding another power to Sli's amulet be the same as creating it from scratch? or would they 'stack' for the purposes of determining the items TOTAL level? And would that cause the new power to cost less? (as per the examples you gave regarding different ways of creating a sonic rod, pg 41 I believe)
I understand you are busy, please do NOT take this as a request to have to re-hash/re-post all the math again! I'm just thinking of how to spend most of Sli's GP and Craft points here in one fell swoop. If you want to say at this point that it counts as a new item to keep it simple, that works too!
My plans for Sli include -
-1 wand of Color Spray, (CL1)
-POSSIBLY the sonic rod, Runestaff version for extra flavor. This is last on my list, if I have the funds left over.
-1 feat, (probably 'practiced caster-wiz' won't give a big bonus really, but it fits with his future plans.)
-add another power to his prot/evil amulet, thinking Blur, 1/day
-Several scrolls of sleep, shield, etc.
I think I can afford most of this. (I know I have the craft points) May have to drop the runestaff. We'll see.
HAPPY HALLOWEEN EVERYBODY!
Chat ya all soon,...
I'm spending Halloween day as usual: listening to Danny Elfman while frantically trying to finish kids' costumes, sugar cookies, and the rest of the Halloween trappings.
For those of you who watched the "Dungeons and Dragons" cartoon in the '80s (or if you just have bad luck with costumes), you may enjoy this.
HAPPY HALLOWEEN!
Luv it! ;)
I actually have the collected DVD's of the series!
I'm too tired and busy to be making costumes this year. Hats off to those of you who do! My kids are going store bought this time, and they're happy, so it's all good!
Hope everyone has a happy and SAFE, fun Halloween! Don't eat TOO much candy, that's MY job! :D
Laters!
OK, shall we consider the following list final unless someone has a better idea?
-use 1 stone to transfer fire Kukri to Salome's Scimitar
-use 1 stone to transfer cold kukri to Ehlissa's Sword.
-turn mithral ransuer into a mithral buckler or shield.
-Use third stone to cover (or at least mostly cover) enchanting new mithral buckler or shield! Either an extra +1AC or another '+1' shield/armor enhancement.
Check. If possible, I'd like Zieke to take the +1 buckler and maybe spend a feat on Two-Weapon Fighting so he can alternate going defense or offense, depending on what we face.
I'd also like to enchant his chain shirt to make it +1 AC, but I have no idea if Zieke has the money or craft points to accomplish it. Can someone help me with that?
Happy Halloween,
--Neil
Real quick, best guess,...
-We have the material (Mithral Ransuer) to make the Mithral Buckler. WITHOUT ENCHANTING it already gets a +1 bonus because it is made of mithral. So it is already a +2 shield.(+1 AC for buckler, +1 for being Mithral) I say use it as is.
-If you already have Masterwork armor, the cost of making it '+1' is +1000GP. And I know it is a 4th lvl item. SO- it should cost 4 Craft Points and 500GP to make your armor +1AC.
Hope that helps!
Laters,...
-We have the material (Mithral Ransuer) to make the Mithral Buckler. WITHOUT ENCHANTING it already gets a +1 bonus because it is made of mithral. So it is already a +2 shield.(+1 AC for buckler, +1 for being Mithral) I say use it as is.
Actually, I don't believe that's right. Mithral doesn't grant an extra +1 AC bonus just because of the material. It only makes the armor lighter. So, at best, a mithral buckler would allow Zieke to fight with less of an armor penalty to certain skills. It won't increase his AC (by more than the basic buckler's +1 AC) unless he enchants it.
-If you already have Masterwork armor, the cost of making it '+1' is +1000GP. And I know it is a 4th lvl item. SO- it should cost 4 Craft Points and 500GP to make your armor +1AC.
I've got a masterwork chain shirt already. So it sounds like I'd need to spend 500gp and 4 craft points to make it a chain shirt +1. If we've got one of those gemstones leftover, I might be able to cut that down to 200gp.
In the meantime, after reading over the special materials description in the SRD, I came across the following information:
Mithral
Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than iron but just as hard. When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonus is increased by 2, and armor check penalties are lessened by 3 (to a minimum of 0).
An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals. In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon’s size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed). Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a scythe cannot be.)
Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.
Given all of that, I'd be REALLY interested in upgrading Zieke's armor from a chain shirt to something like a breastplate or other Medium scale armor. If I could use the mithral from the ranseur...and procure some more from another source...Zieke could conceivably construct a suit of Medium armor that wears like Light armor...which means, he can preserve some of his Monk abilities while wearing it. I think I'd favor this route over enchanting the armor...but it might cost even more because of the mithral involved.
JSL? Can you help me out here? My goal is to increase Zieke's AC going into the final chapter of the adventure. Since we're going to be down in numbers, I'm anticipating Zieke will be leading the charge. So I'm looking to boost his defense rather than his offense at this point...just for survivability's sake. Is it possible (expense-wise) for Zieke to use the mithral ranseur (and any other mithral he can purchase or come by) to design a mithral breastplate? That would raise his AC by 1 over his chain shirt and maintain his movement, current AP penalties, and monk abilities while wearing armor. Sound feasible?
If not (due to a lack of funds and/or craft points), I need to look at enchanting his current masterwork chain shirt or heavy steel shield. Or, make a mithral buckler, enchant it by +1 so it's equal to a heavy shield in AC value, and then look to fight two-handed at times (though Zieke currently lacks the feat and I'd have to spend more craft points on that as well, I believe?). In your opinion, what are my best options for my intended goal?
--Neil
Neil, your right, (of course!)
BUT, check out the DMG pg 183, left hand column, 'Adamantine Shield'.
"Adamantine Shield This large nonmagical shield is made form adamantine, giving it a natural +1 enhancement bonus." (Italics mine)
This is, however, I believe the only place where the material is listed as giving such a bonus.
UNLESS,... you take into account that adamantine items are always masterwork items, and I believe that masterwork items ALWAYS give a natural +1 enhancement bonus (to hit if a weapon I know for sure, to AC if an armor item I believe is also true). This bonus does NOT stack with enchantments. So if you want a shield with a magical +2 bonus, you still have to pay for the first +1, even though your adamantine/masterwork shield/weapon already gives you a +1 because it is masterwork.
I hope I'm right, because it will free up our limited money resources to help you out even more, but if not,... Meh,
well,... it won't be the first time I've been wrong, and it won't be the last! ;)
Laters,...
...BUT, check out the DMG pg 183, left hand column, 'Adamantine Shield'.
"Adamantine Shield This large nonmagical shield is made form adamantine, giving it a natural +1 enhancement bonus." (Italics mine)
That's interesting. Here's the relevant information on adamantine from the special materials write-up that I found in the SRD:
Adamantine
This ultrahard metal adds to the quality of a weapon or suit of armor. Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20. Armor made from adamantine grants its wearer damage reduction of 1/- if it’s light armor, 2/- if it’s medium armor, and 3/- if it’s heavy armor. Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below. Thus, adamantine weapons and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, and the armor check penalty of adamantine armor is lessened by 1 compared to ordinary armor of its type. Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine. An arrow could be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not.
It doesn't mention anything about armor gaining a +1 enhancement bonus. The example from the DMG is for a shield rather than armor, though. And given that they assigned DR to adamantine armors, it's clear they couldn't do that with an adamantine shield. So, perhaps that's why they give the shield an enhancement bonus instead.
Of course, this is adamantine, though...not mithral. So that distinction probably renders the comparison moot. For an example of what's been done with mithral armor, here's something else from the SRD:
Mithral Shirt
This extremely light chain shirt is made of very fine mithral links. Speed while wearing a mithral shirt is 30 feet for Medium creatures, or 20 feet for Small. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 10%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, and no armor check penalty. It is considered light armor and weighs 10 pounds.
No aura (nonmagical); Price 1,100 gp.
Mithral Heavy Shield
This heavy shield is made of mithral and thus is much lighter than a standard steel shield. It has a 5% arcane spell failure chance and no armor check penalty. It weighs 5 pounds.
No aura (nonmagical); Price 1,020 gp.
As you can see, they granted no +1 enhancement bonus. The mithral only reduces weight, armor check penalties, and arcane spell failure chances.
UNLESS,... you take into account that adamantine items are always masterwork items, and I believe that masterwork items ALWAYS give a natural +1 enhancement bonus (to hit if a weapon I know for sure, to AC if an armor item I believe is also true). This bonus does NOT stack with enchantments. So if you want a shield with a magical +2 bonus, you still have to pay for the first +1, even though your adamantine/masterwork shield/weapon already gives you a +1 because it is masterwork.
That's only with weapons. If you review the information about masterwork armor from the PHB, it states...
Masterwork Armor
Just as with weapons, you can purchase or craft masterwork versions of armor or shields. Such a well-made item functions like the normal version, except that its armor check penalty is lessened by 1.
A masterwork suit of armor or shield costs an extra 150 gp over and above the normal cost for that type of armor or shield.
The masterwork quality of a suit of armor or shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the armor or shield is used as a weapon.
All magic armors and shields are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality.
You can’t add the masterwork quality to armor or a shield after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork item.
So, unfortunately, I'm out of luck on gaining a +1 AC bonus from simply masterwork armor. Zieke has essentially been wearing a masterwork chain shirt from the beginning of the game. I've never added-on an AC bonus for it. Along those lines, I assume crafting one out of mithral wouldn't ordinarily impart a bonus either.
Thanks for the support, though... ;-D
--Neil
I hope I'm right, because it will free up our limited money resources to help you out even more, but if not,... Meh,
well,...
We could always mug somebody for the money. Blackmail Peacock... I'm not above extortion. :)
What if we donate to the "let's tankify Zieke fund"?
I haven't had the time or energy to look up costs and all... I'll OOC my purchases, etc. after the interaction with Hannah is done.
Another thought after reading Slidell's dream--
Since we all know we're headed to the end (and probably won't have time to finish all that stuff we were saving about our characters) I hope we can, either IC or OOC, have a little epilogue for our characters after the adventure is done, or have a chance to reveal some of the background info that played into who our characters were and why.
Just a thought.
Neil- Hey, I get the "E" for the effort! Our cost is actually a little different under JSL's system, (Instead of "+300 for masterwork weapon" or "+150 for masterwork armor" we take the item in question and multiply its normal cost. Was it X4 for armor and X10 for weapons? I'll have to go look that back up. It was on the first couple of pages in the discussion thread i think.) But basically your right.
Hm,... maybe just add +1AC OR add 'Light Fortification' (a +1 bonus equivalent) to your armor? At least you get a chance to negate those deadly Crits! And like you said, I think you're gonna be soaking up most of those!
And don't forget that JSL said we could use our Çraft points to buy up our BASE AC, as well as skills, etc. It may be cheaper to buy up Z's base AC (call it studying the scroll's techniques) than to up the armor he's wearing!
Dreamer- Sounds good. We all obviously had plans that probably won't get to see fruition now. I for one would like to ask Salome a few questions, without having to risk having her hand me my head! ;) I think a little after-adventure wind-down/chat (OOC or IC) sounds like just the ticket!
Laters,...
We could always mug somebody for the money. Blackmail Peacock... I'm not above extortion.
Where's a good rogue when you need one? Oh wait. We lost both of those characters. Drat! There goes those options...
What if we donate to the "let's tankify Zieke fund"?
I'd certainly like to contribute to that. Of course, I seem to recall JSL saying something about the potential for abusing the craft point system if too many people pool resources. Communal property like a wand of cure light wounds, was okay with him. But if I understand the basics of this system, I believe it's mostly intended for each of us to power our own way into level-appropriate equipment for ourselves.
Hey, I get the "E" for the effort!
You certainly do. And I appreciate all of the assistance. For balance purposes, I just want to adhere to the rules as much as possible.
Our cost is actually a little different under JSL's system, (Instead of "+300 for masterwork weapon" or "+150 for masterwork armor" we take the item in question and multiply its normal cost.
Yeah, I remember JSL bringing that up when Zieke sold off his masterwork longsword from Korvosa. At this point, he already has a masterwork chain shirt and the ancient masterwork longsword from the Thassilonian ruins under the Glassworks. So, there's no need to buy a masterwork item. Even if he uses the mithral from the ranseur to craft a buckler, I don't believe there's any additional cost associated with the masterwork part of it. That's rolled up into the overall cost already for a 4th level item.
...maybe just add +1AC OR add 'Light Fortification' (a +1 bonus equivalent) to your armor?
That's the alternative that's been staring me in the face during all this downtime. I've been waiting to see if JSL or anyone had a better recommendation.
...don't forget that JSL said we could use our Çraft points to buy up our BASE AC, as well as skills, etc. It may be cheaper to buy up Z's base AC (call it studying the scroll's techniques) than to up the armor he's wearing!
Say what now?! Realllllllly? Hmmm...that may indeed be a better option. Kind of like the Patherfinder RPG's version of the newly-written Dodge feat. It basically lets you spend a feat and get a +1 AC bonus on all melee attacks. I think there's another version of it for ranged attacks. The bottom line is it costs a feat. And since Fighters can use craft points to buy feats...you may have just given me a better alternative. I'll do some more research on it.
Since we all know we're headed to the end (and probably won't have time to finish all that stuff we were saving about our characters) I hope we can, either IC or OOC, have a little epilogue for our characters after the adventure is done, or have a chance to reveal some of the background info that played into who our characters were and why.
I think a little after-adventure wind-down/chat (OOC or IC) sounds like just the ticket!
I'd be game for that. Most of it wouldn't really require DM oversight. I doubt there'd be any dice rolling involved. And unless there's a need for NPC interaction, it could be a player-only scene...self-contained and what-not. Personally, if we did something like that, I'd prefer not to advance the epilogue too far in the future. Rather, just give the characters a sense of accomplishment at the end of "Burnt Offerings" and a lead-in to whatever downtime they'd naturally enjoy following that adventure.
As long as we don't take it too much further than that, it'll leave open their future involvement (and foreshadowing?) in the next chapter "The Skinsaw Murders" like any good movie or book would do. I realize JSL has expressed his desire to move on to 4e or a different game or try his hand at playing a PC in CotCT if I run something. But, by leaving this game with some margin of open-endedness, we could conceivably revisit these characters if someone (JSL or otherwise) decided to pick up the group and carry forward. That's probably not a likely thing to happen right now. But never say never.
Just my two-cents,
--Neil
But, by leaving this game with some margin of open-endedness, we could conceivably revisit these characters if someone (JSL or otherwise) decided to pick up the group and carry forward. That's probably not a likely thing to happen right now. But never say never.
Amen brother! Just look at Sean Connery/James Bond for proof of that! (Anybody else see 'Never Say Never Again'?!?)
LAters,...