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The Changing Lore Warden

Wednesday, October 4, 2017

The Additional Resources for Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Adventurer's Guide notes that any material that changed when it appeared in this book (and underwent several additional rounds of development) would be the default version once the book's contents appear on the Pathfinder Reference Document. Until then, we've let both versions remain legal, for we're not going to institute a change that requires someone to buy another book to use a previously legal character. When we made that Additional Resources update, we expected the PRD would appear soon afterward. It's looking like it will be a while yet before it shows up, and consternation about one of the archetypes in particular—the lore warden—has been building enough that we're resolving it today.

Officially Updated: The Adventurer's Guide version of the lore warden becomes the sole version used in Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild on October 18, 2017. Aim to update your characters using the allowances below before the next time you play a character with fighter (lore warden) levels. This change doesn't become binding for two weeks, which allows you some time to make adjustments and doesn't require you to perform any modifications before your imminent game or convention.

Full Rebuild: If your character had one or more levels of lore warden on or before August 11th, 2017, you can freely rebuild your character as you like. That includes changing up basically anything about the character except the Chronicle sheets you've assigned to them.

Partial Rebuild: If your character took their first level of fighter (lore warden) or otherwise retrained into the lore warden archetype after August 11, 2017 but before October 4, 2017, you can freely rebuild these recently-acquired fighter (lore warden) levels and any other levels taken since; this includes any other character choices you've made since then, such as feats, spells known, recent purchases, and the like. If you adopted the archetype after this date through retraining, you may freely retrain the archetype—removing it entirely or replacing it with one or more other fighter archetypes.

Resources: Both the Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guild and Adventurer's Guide are legal sources for the lore warden. If you own the former, simply use the updated text from the Adventurer's Guide, reprinted below.

Lore Warden (Fighter Archetype)

Quick wits and deceptive techniques can often succeed where brute force might not. A lore warden is the consummate warrior-scholar of the Pathfinder Society, outsmarting her competition even when locking blades with powerful foes. Outside of combat, a lore warden's extensive education also helps her document the past and survive great danger.

Scholastic (Ex): A lore warden gains 2 additional skill ranks each level. These ranks must be spent on Intelligence- based skills. All Craft and Knowledge skills are class skills for lore wardens, as are Linguistics and Spellcraft.

This ability replaces the fighter's proficiency with medium armor, heavy armor, and shields.

Skill Over Strength (Ex): At 2nd level, a lore warden qualifies for feats and other abilities as though she had the Combat Expertise feat. At 6th level, she gains Combat Expertise as a bonus feat, even if she would not normally qualify for the feat. If she already has Combat Expertise, she instead gains any one combat feat that includes Combat Expertise as a prerequisite (and for which she otherwise qualifies). At 10th level, she can treat her base attack bonus as though it were 2 higher for the purpose of calculating the effects of Combat Expertise.

This ability replaces bravery and the fighter bonus feat gained at 2nd level.

Swords Secret (Ex): A lore warden learns specialized techniques that help her to quickly analyze and defeat her foes. At 3rd level, a lore warden gains one swords secret, and she gains an additional swords secret for every 4 fighter levels gained after 3rd. Except where noted, a lore warden cannot select the same swords secret more than once.

Exploit Weakness (Ex): The lore warden adds one-third her class level on attack rolls to confirm critical hits. At 11th level, whenever she confirms a critical hit, her weapon attacks ignore the first 5 points of damage reduction or hardness the target has until the end of her next turn. At 19th level, the lore warden can automatically confirm a critical hit once per round when she threatens a critical hit.

Hair's Breadth (Ex): Once per day when subject to a critical hit, the lore warden can attempt an Acrobatics check to reduce the damage as an immediate action. If the result of this Acrobatics check is greater than the opponent's confirmation roll, she negates the critical hit; the attack still hits and deals normal damage. The lore warden must be at least 11th level to select this swords secret. At 15th level she can use this secret one additional time per day.

Know Thy Enemy (Ex): When the lore warden succeeds at a Knowledge check to identify a creature's abilities and weaknesses, she can also use a standard action to grant herself a +2 insight bonus on all attack and weapon damage rolls made against that enemy. This bonus lasts for a number of rounds equal to half her class level (minimum 2 rounds), or until the lore warden uses this ability against a different creature. At 11th level, she also gains a +2 bonus to her AC against the creature when using this ability. At 19th level, the insight bonus increases to +3.

Maneuver Training (Ex): The lore warden gains a brawler's maneuver training class feature, treating her fighter level as her brawler level.

Swift Assessment (Ex): The lore warden can now use her know thy enemy swords secret as a move action. At 15th level, she can use this ability as a swift action. She must have the know thy enemy swords secret before choosing this swords secret.

This replaces armor training and armor mastery.

The enlightened bloodrager and Qadiran horselord archetypes are receiving the same treatment with two exceptions: we're not reprinting the updated archetype text here (it will still await the PRD update), and the date by which any updates need to happen will be based on when the PRD's updated. The cut-off dates for partial and full rebuilds will be the same, however, as will the legality of the respective previous sources for these archetypes. If you would like to perform those rebuilds for characters with those archetypes now, you're welcome to do so.

John Compton
Organized Play Lead Developer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Organized Play Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild
1 to 50 of 94 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
*****

9 people marked this as a favorite.

Thanks for the official update, and thanks for bumping this one up early. Hopefully a lot of discussions can be laid to rest now.

EDIT: I'm keeping my Lore Warden levels - the extra skill points were the main thrust for me anyway.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

5 people marked this as a favorite.

Time to revisit my -1 and decide what's best for business!

*

4 people marked this as a favorite.
GM Lamplighter wrote:
Thanks for the official update, and thanks for bumping this one up early. Hopefully a lot of discussions can be laid to rest now.

Agreed. While I would have greatly preferred grandfathering, I can work with a full rebuild.

GM Lamplighter wrote:
EDIT: I'm keeping my Lore Warden levels - the extra skill points were the main thrust for me anyway.

Then might I suggest Avenger Vigilante? It gets combat feats every even level (same as a fighter, excluding that one at 1st), more skill points (without needing to dip into advanced weapon training), and better proficiencies. On top of that, it gets actual class abilities, and ones you can use out of combat even!

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Captain, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Don't currently have a Lore Warden (or fighter for that matter) but I am very pleased how this was resolved, particularly the partial rebuild option.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, Online aka Hmm

4 people marked this as a favorite.

I am also very pleased with how this was resolved. Full rebuild for those who had lore warden characters prior to August 11th, partial rebuild for those who may have added a lore warden level recently. Thank you! I love the way that this was handled.

Hmm

Shadow Lodge *****

shaventalz wrote:
Then might I suggest Avenger Vigilante?

Precisely what I've been considering. I rerolled my -1, a Rogue/Lore Warden, for Hell's Rebels as a Vigilante and I think Cunning Feint will help soften the loss of the fighter bonus feats.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Ooo, don't forget the Dirty Fighting Feat!

*

Rysky wrote:
Ooo, don't forget the Dirty Fighting Feat!

Oh, absolutely. Never used the original tax of a feat, and Dirty Fighting actually helps the maneuvers.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

It's an awesome Feat :3

**** Venture-Captain, Georgia—Savannah

9 people marked this as a favorite.

RIP Lore Warden.
As much as I disagree with the final decision not to grandfather the old version, I appreciate the style and grace with which the development team handled this highly polarized issue.

Now to see if there's any way to salvage who my poor LW was as a person and a character....

Sovereign Court **

6 people marked this as a favorite.

I love that you guys have allowed both written sources of Lore Warden to count as a legal source for ownership purposes. Even going so far as to reprint the updated rules in the blog post.

Combine that with the well thought out rebuild rules from above and i feel like this is a very fair and considered approach.

Well done Org Play team, keep up the good work! :)

****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Don't currently have a Lore Warden (or fighter for that matter) but I am very pleased how this was resolved, particularly the partial rebuild option.

Adding my voice to this. Well done and thanks!

Shadow Lodge *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Thank you for the much needed three shots for the patient to make this bearable

*offers six shots to the doctors as per standard medical rates*

**

Amanda Plageman wrote:
Now to see if there's any way to salvage who my poor LW was as a person and a character....

Swashbuckler fits the style, if not the skill points... AND the skill points! :P

Liberty's Edge

Hmm. So full rebuild. I'd have preferred grandfathering, but I think I can make this work.

Now to figure out what and how.

***

Very fair, but oh how I wish for just two days more. I had hoped to take my character through a module on the 20th before rebuilding him. Thank you for the full rebuild, though.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
Mimo Tomblebur wrote:
Very fair, but oh how I wish for just two days more. I had hoped to take my character through a module on the 20th before rebuilding him. Thank you for the full rebuild, though.

You can make use of the IC (Implement Changes) clause if you don't have enough time to update before your next game.

I can imagine it might take some time to fully flesh out the rebuild.

Edit: just checked up on the wording in the guide, it's Implementation Delay, and only for use during a convention.

Edit 2: Never mind. Just saw that you have until october 18th, not two days from now.

Sovereign Court *****

Cool to see. Nice to know I can still find some way to make my prestige class levels work.

--Vad Deschamps, Lore Warden 5/Low Templar 5 (Tentatively, Dragoon 5/Low Templar 5)

(Even if the rebuild will likely end up the second time I've taken a hit to my skill points, heh).

Captive in Crystal:
Getting changed from a Human to an Oread is a kick in the head...

Grand Lodge *****

The full rebuild helps my Lore Warden replace a dead Trait. I initially selected Clever Wordplay to make Diplomacy Int-based (and, therefore, I interpreted, a Class Skill), but then an FAQ unceremoniously tossed that out of the window.

So... Thank you!

Liberty's Edge *****

Tch, wish I could get back that prestige on retraining too...

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Virginia—Richmond East

What if we had already used a rebuild on the character atter the 11th from anther source (ex. a GenCon Gm boon)? Would we get that rebuild boon back?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I guess my Lore Warden just became another 2-handed fighter. The massive loss in CMB means it is no longer worth the action economy to use maneuvers.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, New Hampshire—Concord aka D_GENNEXT

Welp. Time to figure out what feats I need to lose to in order to keep Combat Expertise now...

Liberty's Edge

thorin001 wrote:
I guess my Lore Warden just became another 2-handed fighter. The massive loss in CMB means it is no longer worth the action economy to use maneuvers.

I'm not sure I get this. I've never done a CMB character in PFS, but at 11th level, you're only suffering a -3 in this version vs. the old one (it's only a -1 at 3rd and a -2 at 7th...all assuming one maneuver, of course). That's not ideal, but it doesn't seem completely build-ruining or anything on most maneuver builds.

Jason Avery wrote:
Welp. Time to figure out what feats I need to lose to in order to keep Combat Expertise now...

They still get Combat Expertise...well, they do at 6th anyway.

*****

Deadmanwalking wrote:


They still get Combat Expertise...well, they do at 6th anyway.

But they lose out on their 2nd level combat feat, thus figuring out what feat to lose in order to keep CE.

Liberty's Edge

Pirate Rob wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:


They still get Combat Expertise...well, they do at 6th anyway.

But they lose out on their 2nd level combat feat, thus figuring out what feat to lose in order to keep CE.

That's...a really weird way to put that. Losing a Feat in order to keep the Archetype, sure, that makes sense. But they don't have the option of not taking CE if they have the new version of the Archetype.

*****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I changed over my level 14 Lorewarden to the new one.

I lost a little on my trip CMB, but I am a whip using strength-based build. Up to this point, I had not been using a strength boosting item, so I can make up the difference there.

Chose to loose Weapon Specializationas my lost feat. Made the damage back by Advanced Weapon Training - Focused Weapon. Whip is now a d10 instead of d3 damage.

Biggest hang up for me was having to choose sword secrets instead of auto getting them.

All in all, not so bad. I endured the loss of Sczarni and became a legitimate businessman in the Exchange. I think I can deal with this.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Thank you for allowing full rebuilds. I just hope the people who used rebuild boons can get those back.

Silver Crusade **

As tactful as it is helpful. Thanks for the stopgap, and the explanation.

Now, do I just keep current, or switch to something else? Either way, I'll sleep on it.

****

6 people marked this as a favorite.

To those at Paizo, and those volunteers who have helped us get where we are:

Thank you very much for changing your policy to avoid the harsh fallout from the changes of rules.

I hope that future changes are handled in a similar way moving forward.

Liberty's Edge

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thank you for listening to both those who endorsed the revision and those who opposed it. And thanks for giving us this fair and clear resolution so that we can all move forward

I think you show good skills at leadership here and I hope this resolution can become a template for similar situations down the road

I do not yet know what my lone PFS character with his two levels of Lore Warden will become but I thank you for giving him à new lease on life :-)

***

shaventalz wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:
Thanks for the official update, and thanks for bumping this one up early. Hopefully a lot of discussions can be laid to rest now.

Agreed. While I would have greatly preferred grandfathering, I can work with a full rebuild.

GM Lamplighter wrote:
EDIT: I'm keeping my Lore Warden levels - the extra skill points were the main thrust for me anyway.
Then might I suggest Avenger Vigilante? It gets combat feats every even level (same as a fighter, excluding that one at 1st), more skill points (without needing to dip into advanced weapon training), and better proficiencies. On top of that, it gets actual class abilities, and ones you can use out of combat even!

Depending on your choices and if you don't care about feats Alchemist and Investigators were always a better option mechanically.

*

MadScientistWorking wrote:
shaventalz wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:
Thanks for the official update, and thanks for bumping this one up early. Hopefully a lot of discussions can be laid to rest now.

Agreed. While I would have greatly preferred grandfathering, I can work with a full rebuild.

GM Lamplighter wrote:
EDIT: I'm keeping my Lore Warden levels - the extra skill points were the main thrust for me anyway.
Then might I suggest Avenger Vigilante? It gets combat feats every even level (same as a fighter, excluding that one at 1st), more skill points (without needing to dip into advanced weapon training), and better proficiencies. On top of that, it gets actual class abilities, and ones you can use out of combat even!
Depending on your choices and if you don't care about feats Alchemist and Investigators were always a better option mechanically.

Feats and BAB. Avenger Vigilantes still get full BAB, which affects not only their to-hit but when they get their iteratives. Plus, some options require "Fighter level X" or "BAB +X", which Alchemists and Investigators lose out on.

Grand Lodge

The part in the full rebuild that says I can change "basically anything about the character except the Chronicle sheets you've assigned to them".
Does this include equipment I can resell for full value? or do items purchased count as part of the chronicle sheets assigned?

Sczarni *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Think of the 1st Level Rebuild.

It's that, but any Level.

Grand Lodge *

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Cheers, for this. Now time to take a look over my character and work out what I fancy doing.

Lantern Lodge

This is fantastic PFS crew! I know there was an intense debate on this topic.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Much as has been said up-thread, thank you very much for the consideration of all parties involved, and would like to echo the sentiment that moving forwards this might be the better option for rules/character change implementations with newer versions of product and materials.

Looking forward, might it be worth considering a discounted rebuild for when new classes and options become available for characters that weren't present years before, to help promote newer items?

Silver Crusade *

6 people marked this as a favorite.

I have mixed feelings.

It is clear that a lot of thought has gone into this ruling, and I really appreciate that. The partial rebuild is an elegant means of preventing potential shenanigans. My own Lore Warden qualifies for a full rebuild.

But, I am now faced with choosing between limiting the reduction in mechanical effectiveness, or sacrificing the story I wanted to tell with this particular character.

I hope that PDT and PFS Leadership will note that rewriting character classes or archetypes causes damage to the stories that players are creating. For me (and many others I am sure) a PC is not a "toon", but a personality that I am emotionally invested in.

I also remain concerned about the publishing policy signalled by the publication and implementation of Adventurer's Guide, and how that reflects on Paizo's quality control.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm very disappointed that my first PFS character is no longer legal. Was the Lore Warden broken?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
SSuser wrote:
I'm very disappointed that my first PFS character is no longer legal. Was the Lore Warden broken?

We've had more than one thread on that. Some say yes. Some say no.

All those threads are locked btw, if that tells you anything.

Liberty's Edge ***** Venture-Agent, Ohio—Centerville aka Dave Setty

Deadmanwalking wrote:
thorin001 wrote:
I guess my Lore Warden just became another 2-handed fighter. The massive loss in CMB means it is no longer worth the action economy to use maneuvers.
I'm not sure I get this. ...all assuming one maneuver...

It's not that big of a deal. If you're in to always doing the same g*****n maneuver, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Removed some posts and replies.

Liberty's Edge *****

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

My Lore Warden/6 has been rebuilt into a Vigilante (Avenger)/6. I managed to keep him mostly the same guy, even though the mechanics are different. I took "Extra Traits" as a human bonus feat so I could have four different traits to add four more Knowledge skills as class skills, so I'm only a few short of what I had before. But, I have more skill points, so that's a win. I decided to change his background a bit, to fit with the Vigilante class. He had been a book binder before who went on adventurers. Now, inspired by Indiana Jones, he has one identity as a lecturer for Pathfinder initiates, teaching them all about history. His other adventure is as a leather-clad dashing risk-taking adventurer/archaeologist.... He doesn't bother keeping the two identities secret, and uses the same name, but his character is a little different based on context (again, much like Indiana Jones, which as I understand it was one of the things the Vigilante was supposed to get at, in addition to the costumed hero thing).

Sczarni *****

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I saw people switching their Lore Warden over to Avenger Vigilante, but to me the whole Dual Identity was a deal breaker.

Until I realized, reading through Advice threads, that there's zero drawback to having your Vigilante Identity discovered.

So I think I may switch mine over as well. I'll use this whole OOC Rebuild as an IC "unmasking".

Shadow Lodge *****

4 people marked this as a favorite.

So what do we call an out of the cave vigilantee? Tony starking it? Stark naked?

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