Pathfinder Battles Preview: Leapin' Lizards!

None of the links for the pictures work. The battles tag seems to be wonky as well, it's not showing up on the list of likewise tagged blog posts.

Edit: it is, but for June 10, 2013

finally starting metallic dragons for "form of the dragon 1"
hopeing for more

Wow. This was an unexpected find.

I never thought we'd see a Giant Frilled Lizard. For whatever reason I thought Paizo wouldn't make it, thinking it was too generic or something. I'm thrilled to see the big lizard getting some love.

I love putting animals into my campaigns, as it's a good way to watch my group interact with one another. Unlike some of the more typical monsters where it's kill or be killed, there are numerous ways to deal with animals. There is usually at least one person playing a druid in my campaigns, and usually they prefer to try and deal with the creature in ways besides a sword through the heart. It's great to see that now he'll have good representation.

I love the look of the Forest Drake. It appears to be a bit more green than it's illustration, and I hope that turns out to be the case. Perhaps as equally pleasing is hearing that Erik plans to cover all the bases when it comes to Drakes. Not only do they make a solid intro to the dragon-type character in a game, but it's easier to put them in my campaigns.

It makes me happy knowing that Erik has a bit of completionist in him, and that there are certain types of monsters he's hoping to make all of in miniature form.

Speaking of completing sets, I'm thrilled to see Paizo's first entry into the metallic dragons. Because the links aren't working to the individual miniatures, it's tough to get a real real for this guy. But from what I see so far he's looking great. I also really love the fact that he's a medium rare. I think that's the perfect rarity spot for it, as he is a good-aligned dragon the DM likely only needs one. I hope that he does well within the set so that we see other metallic dragons in the future.

With my excitement over completing particular sets of monsters within the Pathfinder Miniatures line, here are a few of my most desired types that I hope we'll see one day:

Swarms -- I never really got into swarms until Pathfinder, but the company has really increased my interest in them. I purchased many of the old DDM swarms, and all the pathfinder ones, too. There is already some overlap between the two, but Pathfinder seems to have taken the swarm to a whole new level. I hope we get to seem them in miniature form one day.

Here's a list of some of the swarms I'd like to see as miniatures:
--Bat Swarm
--Scorpion and/or Crab Swarm
--Giant Army Ant and/or Centipede Swarm
--Leech, Tick and/or Cockroach Swarm
--Mosquito and/or Wasp Swarm
--Jellyfish Swarm
--Hellwasp Swarm
--Snake Swarm

Giants -- I've stated this before, so I'll just mention it again. Being somewhat iconic creatures in fantasy, it makes sense to me to try and cover them all as miniatures.

Trolls -- The same explanation as Giants.

Hags -- One of my favorite words. I love putting hags into my campaigns, and I like all the hag miniatures we've seen to this point.

Elementals -- This already seems to be on the list, and the original four from the first Bestiary are found in small form in this very set. If Paizo can get some Huge-sized miniatures made of these four elementals, that would be icing on the cake. Then they can start on the next cake, the sub-elementals (the elementals found in the Bestiary 2). If all they get through is the original four but manage to get them out in Huge form, too, that's fine. And unless I'm misinformed, they'd be the only company that put out miniatures of their four main Elementals in all four sizes. That would be quite a Feat.

Golems -- There are so many golems that I can understand if they don't all get made. Still, I like the idea of creating constructs, and I've tried to incorporate them more into my campaigns.

Half-??? -- We've already got the Half-Fiend Minotaur, and he's amazing. Erik hinted that the Half-Dragon (Dracolisk) was one of the creatures selected for the Reign of Winter line but was cut when they decided to slash the line from 55 down to 45. Hopefully we'll see him pop up in a future set. That leaves only the Half-Celestial, in this case the Half-Celestial Unicorn. These are all from the Bestiary 1, and I think they'd make a great little set to see in miniature form.

Mephit -- There are many of them, but only in the first Bestiary. The small elementals could probably work just as fine for a Mephit, but it'd still be great to see them someday.

Lycanthrope -- This is another one I'm really hoping we get to see as a complete set. We've already got a Wererat and Werewolf from the Bestiary 1. We've also got a Wereshark from the Bestiary 4. But there are a few other Lycanthrope that I'd love to see in miniature form:
--Werebear (Bestiary 2)
--Wereboar (Bestiary 2)
--Weretiger (Bestiary 2)
--Werebat (Bestiary 4)
--Werecrocodile (Bestiary 4)

The illustrations for the lycanthrope are spectacular.

Looks like they just forgot the "_500" on the end of the image extension.

Until they fix it, here are the full images:

Giant Frill Lizard

Forest Drake

Medium Brass Dragon

I also want a lot of those "sets."

One thing on the giants--I want not just one of each, but for some reason I want a male and a female of each race, too. I am not so picky about the Huges, though, I must say. That size is a real problem for us to work into the mix at the moment, so I'll be content with one of each.

I'll do all of the lycanthropes if I can. It's going to take me several sets (none of these guys are in the next three, I'm afraid), but thanks for the reminder. Our werecrocodile illustration is hilarious.

Another hag is coming soon. That'll bring us to three. Still plenty more, but I think I'll probably concentrate on other Medium monsters. We have lots of "evil witch" type figures already that can double pretty easily for any type of hag.

Huge elementals are a problem. I'll try.

We'll try to do all the golems, but there are a ton of them.

Mephits are difficult. We don't have great illustrations of all of them, and they're the smallest type of figure we'll ever do. They're on the wish list, but have some technical difficulties.

I figured people would think the celestial unicorn was too uni-corny, but maybe I'm being too cautious.

Love the pose, colour and detail on the dragon. Not 100% sure on the drake but I felt that with the other two and was very happy when they arrived. I think it may the Godzilla vibe I get from it. As for the frill neck lizard, love it!

100% behind you on the giants. A male and female just seems like the right way to go. Especially given the 3 male stone giants we have. With that in mind I would also love some of the less mainstream giants, perhaps a female marsh giant, but most definitely the ash giant or cave giant, I think they are a particularly nice evil giant.

Lycanthropes don't phase me too much, unless we get the quirky ones there as well, say a werebat, werecrocodile sort of thing.

Golems? Throw me a bone and I'll be in there like a shot, it's one of the coolest looking golems.

I know they're difficult but mephitis could work if they used the same scale as the quasit from WotR.

What I would really like to see are:

Fey, so many more fey.
--Pugwampi
--Lurker in light
--Pukwugie

Daemons and divs

Good/Neutral outsiders
--angels and archons
--Psychopomps
--Inevitables

Kytons

Aberrations - especially the clawed and/or tentacles types

See way too many wants :-(

Now for HUGES. What is happening here Erik, can you give any clues? How did the huge set go? I know its hard to get here so it has at least sold well here.

On a different note now that authorizations have started I'm pretty happy with the changes to the line. The reduced cost and redistribution leaves me feeling I can afford to keep my minis going. Of course sure yet how the DnD line will affect this.

That size is a real problem for us to work into the mix at the moment, so I'll be content with one of each.

Huge elementals are a problem. I'll try.

I am guessing the huges are an issue as there isn't an established way to get them into each set? Too big to go into the booster boxes and promo slot is saved for gargantuans?

How well did the RotRL huge cases sell? Could you do something like that again?

I would hate to not see huges again just because they are that awkward sized set that you can't find a good way to package and sell them, as there are still so many worthwhile huge minis to see.

I would think if you released a case of the 4 huge elementals (huge case like with RotRL), that would probably sell relatively well.

that would probably sell relatively well.

Two potential problems for a publisher right there ;)

Hobbun wrote:

that would probably sell relatively well.

Two potential problems for a publisher right there ;)

For what it's worth, if you do Huge Elementals I'll buy 4 of each personally!

Hobbun wrote:

that would probably sell relatively well.

Two potential problems for a publisher right there ;)

I'd buy them immediately

Hobbun wrote:

that would probably sell relatively well.

Two potential problems for a publisher right there ;)

There are never any guarantees in business. But huge elementals are usually the more popular size category. So that is as good as educated guess as any.

You don't have to convince me, I'd buy them in a heartbeat. But I'd be likely the only one around the tables I play at.

As a veteran minis collector, I would buy a huge elemental set just for getting the huge water elemental. As a plasti-crack addict, I would buy an additional set, because I can't just have 1 huge water elemental. Getting the other huge elementals would of course be a side benefit :)

As a veteran minis collector, I would buy a huge elemental set just for getting the huge water elemental. As a plasti-crack addict, I would buy an additional set, because I can't just have 1 huge water elemental. Getting the other huge elementals would of course be a side benefit :)

I would also be likely to buy two sets. Elementals (along with golems, demons, and devils) are one of my favorite monster types. Huge size minis are also a favorite of mine, and I bought two sets of the RoW huges. So hopefully Paizo can find some way of making a huge elemental set happen!

I know Erik has indicated that the builder sets, and some of the encounter sets, have not sold as well they hoped. Has he said anything about the Reign of Winter Huge 2-pack?

Not yet, I'm kind of hoping for good news. I'd buy huge elementals in a flash as well.

I know Erik has indicated that the builder sets, and some of the encounter sets, have not sold as well they hoped. Has he said anything about the Reign of Winter Huge 2-pack?

If the Red and White dragon sets didn't sell as well as they would've liked, I can't imagine that RoW 2-pack sold all that well either.

-Skeld

It's tough to say. Because dragons are more popular than frost worms and that huge multi-legged miniature, I think on the surface it makes more sense that the dragons sell better. But there plenty of DDM dragons, and Paizo had made some, too. In fact, many of the old DDM line of Medium and Large dragons aren't too expensive on the secondary market.

But as far as I'm aware, there isn't a frost worm in that old DDM set. I view them as the equivalent of the purple worm in cold regions, and thus there is always a frost worm or three in my campaigns. Perhaps others felt as I did, and bought a couple packs.

The other miniature was an interesting choice. I personally loved it, the sculpt, detail and paint job was fantastic on both of mine. But I always include at least one big cold region in my campaigns. I've played in others that ignore it completely. I can completely understand hesitance to purchase the RoW Huge pack.

Hobbun wrote:

I know Erik has indicated that the builder sets, and some of the encounter sets, have not sold as well they hoped. Has he said anything about the Reign of Winter Huge 2-pack?

If the Red and White dragon sets didn't sell as well as they would've liked, I can't imagine that RoW 2-pack sold all that well either.

-Skeld

Are you saying because they were dragon packs and dragons always sell more? Or that just encounter packs in general won't sell well?

Either way, it's not an assumption I'm willing to make. At least speaking for myself, I already had a ton of dragons (although I still bought both white and red), but no Frost Worms, so I was more excited for the RoW pack.

Regarding the Huge Elementals, here are some more thoughts. I've expressed most of these before, but with everyone adding in their two cents, I'll toss a quarter:

--I sort of view the Huge Elementals as perhaps the safest of all miniatures to do in Huge form (from a demand aspect). As has been pointed out, there doesn't appear to be a Huge water elemental in the old DDM line. The Huge fire elemental from that line is okay, I guess, but the other two leave me wanting…

--The artwork for the elementals in the Bestiaries is great. As artwork seems to be a big part of the equation to getting miniatures made, I don't feel like they'd have to have any new illustrations made.

--I've never played in a campaign where an Elemental wasn't used in some manner of speaking. Even when DM's have been hesitant to use them on their own, a player has summoned them. Even in low magic campaigns, there is usually a Druid or such that wildshapes into an Elemental once it becomes possible. (Seriously, who WOULDN'T want to!!)

--One or two of the members that post here sell miniatures on the secondary market. It's been said that while the medium elementals don't really move that much, there is a greater demand for the Large. Part of this is the large amount of Medium-sized elementals available in both the old DDM line and the Paizo lines. I've seen the Large Paizo elementals available from anywhere between $12-$18.00, before any discounts. Also, according to our resident secondary sellers, it sounds like it's harder to keep them in stock. One has to assume that Huge versions would do equally as well, if not better.

--One amazing thing about the Paizo elemental miniatures is that they have a general look for each element, and they stick with it through all the sizes. As Erik has pointed out, the smaller elementals in the Lost Coast set will likely share the same colors as the medium and large versions. Adding in Huge elementals that also share the same colors and general theme of each element would be a coup for the company. It'd be a somewhat rare accomplishment in a miniatures line.

--Huge Elementals, unlike the Small, Medium and Large elementals, each represent three different versions (and CRs) of the elemental creatures. Huge, Greater and Elder elementals are all Huge in size, and thus each miniature is like getting three for the price of one.

--From what I've read on these boards and from conversations with other DM's and players, many campaigns don't get too high in levels. Common cutoff points tend to be around Level 12-15. Fair enough. But many of the common Huge-sized creatures in the game fall around this level (or slightly lower), and thus it's a shame we don't see more of them.

The Huge elementals fall into this category. The CR for each tier of Huge-sized Elemental is as follows:
Huge Elemental = CR 7
Greater Elemental = CR 9
Elder Elemental = CR 11

So the Huge elemental appears to be the sweet spot as far as how much each miniature can be utilized on the gaming table.

--There aren't really very many sources for Elementals outside of the miniature lines. Unlike Animals, for example, that can be had from other lines by other companies in Huge size or above, the list is rather limited for Elementals. While there are plenty of action figures that represent a particular type of element, those figures are usually clearly human-based in appearance, and don't really do the trick.

--Elementals can be used by both players and DM's. They can be presented as an encounter by the DM, or as summoned creatures with a Planar Ally-like spell. They can summoned by players like Wizards and Sorcerers. Druids can wild shape into elementals, and even Wizards and Sorcerers can polymorph into elementals with the right spell.

--Elementals are inherent in many forms of fantasy in today's culture. We all use fire, water, air and earth in our daily lives, and thus feel more attuned to these beings when diving into our fantasy worlds.

Anyways, these are the reasons why I believe they'd do well on the market. As I said before, I've already touched on most of these reasons, so I'm just re-upping the ideas for this particular conversation. I'm not looking to beat a dead horse here, as Erik has already said he'll try.

Skeld wrote:

Hobbun wrote:

I know Erik has indicated that the builder sets, and some of the encounter sets, have not sold as well they hoped. Has he said anything about the Reign of Winter Huge 2-pack?

If the Red and White dragon sets didn't sell as well as they would've liked, I can't imagine that RoW 2-pack sold all that well either.

-Skeld

Are you saying because they were dragon packs and dragons always sell more? Or that just encounter packs in general won't sell well?

Either way, it's not an assumption I'm willing to make. At least speaking for myself, I already had a ton of dragons (although I still bought both white and red), but no Frost Worms, so I was more excited for the RoW pack.

Allow me to elaborate.

Dragons are iconic to the game and they pop-up in the game with some regularity. I would expect a set that consisted of dragons in 3 different size categories to sell better than a 2-pack consisting of a Frost Worm and a 6-legged Frost Giant/Centaur kinda thing. I'm making several assumptions based on what makes sense to me. Nothing more. :)

I bought the RoW pack to get the Frost Worm. I need one for my RotRl game. The other thing... I don't know if I'll ever use it. I'm still scratching my head about it.

-Skeld

Allow me to elaborate.

Dragons are iconic to the game and they pop-up in the game with some regularity. I would expect a set that consisted of dragons in 3 different size categories to sell better than a 2-pack consisting of a Frost Worm and a 6-legged Frost Giant/Centaur kinda thing. I'm making several assumptions based on what makes sense to me. Nothing more. :)

I bought the RoW pack to get the Frost Worm. I need one for my RotRl game. The other thing... I don't know if I'll ever use it. I'm still scratching my head about it.

-Skeld

I do fear the future of Huge packs if they are basing their decision on the sales of the RoW Huge pack. Similar to Skeld, I'm really not sure what to do with the centaur-thing. I really don't see the set appealing to the casual mini buyer. The only market I see for it is the collectors who must have everything, and the GM's running RoW.

I certainly don't want to discourage making sets like the RoW Huge pack. I like having variety in my minis (especially my huges), but if the sales of such sets are going to be the measure for future sets then I would rather see more "generic" sets which have a better chance of producing decent sales.

More thoughts on what others have talked about:

--I'm all in for giants of both genders. In my humble opinion this is the way to go for some of the more iconic fantasy creatures with humanoid-like features. (See: Trolls, Goblins, Bugbears).

--I'm also with Cat-thulu in that I look forward to some of the lesser known Giants. One of the greatest things about the giants is that they are regional. The Cave Giant is fun and the illustrations are great. I'm not as big a fan of the Wood Giant illustration, but the appeal of having one I can stash in my forests is great. As a CG Giant, he'd likely make a great Large Rare figure. The Desert Giant looks pretty cool, and would serve as a good regional giant for the desert regions that are common in many campaigns. The River Giant is pretty cool looking, and would do well for the rivers that are in many campaigns. The Cliff Giant is really cool, and the illustration in the Bestiary 4 is great. He's NG, though. I'd love to see him and a female version pop up somewhere in a future line as Large Rare miniatures.

--I left out talk about Fey just because we already spent a thread discussing those, but my opinions on them have not changed.

--Aberrations and Magical Beasts:

These are perhaps the two most common types of creatures, outside of Undead, and I'll never be disappointed at seeing a good number of them in any set.

--Plants and Oozes:

I'm a big proponent of plants and oozes.

There are some spectacular illustrations of plant creatures in the bestiaries. While many of them are huge or larger, there are still a handful or so of miniature-worthy Small, Medium and Large illustrations.

One of my general pet peeves about the lack of Plant creatures in the miniature line is that there are so many different spells, magic items and pc-based archetypes and features that relate to plants. While many of them are more flavorful than powerful compared to other spells or archetypes, it's fun to utilize them. But as a general rule, I've found that I like to have about 50% or more of my monsters in miniature form for a campaign. It's hard to utilize all these flavorful plant-based concepts when there are so few Plant miniatures for my characters to fight/interact with during a given campaign.

I've mentioned plant creatures before, and Erik has been receptive to the idea. Hopefully we see one or two pop up in the future. I realize the ultimate demand for them isn't likely too great, so I keep my expectations rather low.

As for the Oozes, I totally understand that for many oozes, people say "you can make your own" and stuff like that. I get that, and I've tried making some oozes and slimes, and they've worked out at different levels of success. But there are also some oozes in the Bestiaries that are amazing to look at and too hard to create on my own. Even something like the Carnivorous Crystal, an ooze I've seen in at least three different Adventure Path sets, would make for a solid miniature.

I realize the demand for smaller oozes isn't huge, and the larger, common oozes can often be made by hand. But oozes are still a big staple of the caves, dungeons and forests in my campaigns. I'd love to see a couple more of them find their way into the Battles line of miniatures.

Some thoughts on Outsiders, both Good and Evil:

--Daemons and Divs:
These are an interesting group when it comes to miniatures. They can claim some of the best illustrations in the entire set of bestiaries, but they're also lesser versions (popularity-wise) of Demons and Devils. I'm all for loading up on them in future sets, but I can understand any hesitation to do that. I've rarely seen anyone request them, and even when I work them into my own home campaigns, it's often as a once-per-campaign deal. I'm open to including more in my campaigns, but these are exactly the type of creatures where I probably won't do so unless I have a nice looking miniature that I can toss on the table.

Having said that, I think the best way to get them more involved in campaigns and as miniatures is to create an Adventure Path that sort of focuses around them. Sort of like all the Demons and Demodands that you were able to fit into the Wrath of the Righteous campaign, and the accompanying miniatures. One of the best things about that line from a miniature perspective is that if one is looking to beef up their demon subset, they can just save up and buy a case of them. Doing something similar with the Daemons and Divs would make some sense.

As I look through some of the previous Adventure Paths, I see some of the Daemons and Divs have popped up here and there. However, none of them seem to be a major selling point for the entire Adventure Path.

--Good/Neutral outsiders:

More Specifically (per Cat-thulu):
--angels and archons
--Psychopomps
--Inevitables

Some of these present other issues. As with any Lawful or Neutral Good creature, the question becomes "how many of these do I need?" As a DM that usually runs "good" campaigns, I'm more interested in evil creatures. While I appreciate the Good Outsiders, I usually don't have more than a handful, unless it's the main theme of the campaign. And even when I do use that handful, it's often not more than one at a time. (Planar Ally-type deal, etc.)

But even having one or two good outsiders per set in the Medium and/or Large Rarity slots seem like it would take up too many spots in a 45-piece set.

Psychopomps are the exception, as though the demand might not be terribly high, there are only a few of them in the Medium/Large category, and they are Neutral Outsiders. Besides, the artwork on them is fantastic.

Borrowing from my idea about creating a Daemon &/or Div-centric Adventure Path, I think tossing in some of the good outsiders like the Angels, Archons and Inevitables would make sense. It would sort of be a Heaven vs. Hell like campaign, where the players are essentially caught in the middle. I know the whole End of Days, Gods vs. Monsters theme is cliche and rather worn out in some other parts of the fantasy culture, but I think it could make for a great Adventure Path.

I know Wrath of the Righteous was somewhat similar to this, but I'm talking an all out war. It would be a great way to get the average fantasy gamer into these evil Outsiders, as well as use the good Outsiders in a more fulfilling way then the somewhat typical "Why did you call me here, you planar ally-loving people?"-type of way I see them used in many campaigns.

In addition to making for a pretty epic Adventure Path, it would be a great way to get some miniatures made of these great illustrations. And considering that Daemons, Divs, Angels, Archons and some of the other Outsider types take up a significant portion of the Bestiaries, it would be a great way to further push that material.

Blog date and image links have been corrected.

I really don't see the set appealing to the casual mini buyer. The only market I see for it is the collectors who must have everything, and the GM's running RoW.

I certainly don't want to discourage making sets like the RoW Huge pack. I like having variety in my minis (especially my huges), but if the sales of such sets are going to be the measure for future sets then I would rather see more "generic" sets which have a better chance of producing decent sales.

Someone's got his headband of whatever it is wisdom +6 on. I've got hundreds of minis now, and I looked at that pack more than once, wanting to want it, and failed. Not because they were badly done, but because they were so specifically not things I need. Random Huge fiend? Sure, because those can substitute for any other random Huge fiend. Huge humanoids? Sure, look, someone used enlarge person on the Hill Giant... run! Huge dragons, elementals, mammoths, sure. Maybe an aberration here or there. But "big worm"? Yeah, just somehow doesn't come up very often in my campaigns for some reason.

I deeply respect Erik's choices and applaud them, but - as you - desperately hope the risky choices aren't the ones used to gauge success. 'Cuz where I wouldn't buy a worm and a horse-dude, there's still Huge cash to be extracted from me. (Though I'm getting dragoned out, admittedly.)

Awhile back, we discussed demand for PC-type characters vs. Monsters as well as how to incorporate Huge-sized miniatures into the Battles line. Here are some recent thoughts I've had regarding those two topics.

--It appears that PC-type players are more popular than I thought. However, too many of them crammed into a Battles set can be detrimental in that it ignores a significant demand by many DM's for adding more monsters to their collection.

--It appears that going with an ALL Monster Battles line isn't logical. Nor would sticking with an Humanoid PC-type line make too much sense. Thus a somewhat careful mix appears to be the best way to go about it.

--Huge-sized miniatures are a problem. Part of it I think is packaging. I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and say the Huge six-packs from the Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path Battles line didn't do as well as they'd hoped. After all, they are still available on both this Paizo site and on third-party merchant sites.

--According to comments made in the past from Paizo representatives, the Dragon Evolutions lines were not quite as successful as the company had hoped. This is disappointing, as I thought it a brilliant way to get--as Skeld has pointed out in an above post--creatures that are iconic to the game in one affordable purchase. Part of the issue on that, I think, is just the amount of chromatic dragons already available from other companies in the past. And although I was a fan of the White dragons, there appeared to be some disappointment with their quality by fellow purchasers. Still, lower than expected sales are not ideal, regardless of the reason.

--We haven't heard any word on the Reign of Winter two-packs. From just hunting around, the website CoolStuffInc. shows that it has over 20+ packages of the product on hand and ready for purchase. Other sites, such as Popular Collections and Miniature Market seem to have had a few, too. I use these sites because when I put one in my cart, it shows me the quantity they have. They are still available on the Paizo miniatures page, too. So regardless of how they are doing sales-wise, we know they haven't exactly sold out like hotcakes.

--I'm curious as to whether Huge miniatures present any major problems in the actual production process. While Erik has been adamant that the Huge size miniature is problematic, I haven't seen an indication the actual production process is an issue. It seems to me that the biggest problem is packaging and, in a related issue, assessing demand.

--The other issue in determining demand for Huge miniatures is the availability of those from the old DDM line. While not all of those were perfect, they are, in fact, made at one point and available on the secondary market for those who want them. This means that, while I love the illustrations in the Pathfinder Bestiary 1 of the Bebilith, Behir, Bulette and Remorhaz, I can accept that it might not make sense for Paizo to make these guys right away (or ever) even if a good method of making and selling Huge miniatures makes sense. While they are some of the more popular creatures used in the campaigns I've been a part of over the years, the old DDM miniatures are actually quite acceptable.

--With that in mind, I think it makes the most sense to focus on the somewhat more popular or in-demand Huge-sized creatures that we haven't already seen in miniature form.

Here is one idea that I think could work.

I've looked through all the Adventure Paths from which Pathfinder Battles Lines have been made. These include the following: Rise of the Runelords, Shattered Star, Skull & Shackles, Wrath of the Righteous and Reign of Winter. It appears that in each of these lines there are some real good illustrations--both in PC playable & monster form--that would look great on the gaming table. And just as importantly, there is at least one or two creatures in Medium, Large AND Huge forms that would benefit a DM and/or players.

My suggestion is somewhat simple. It also appears to be an extension of a slight part of what Erik was thinking with The Lost Coast line, in regards to filling in some of the gaps from previous Adventure Path lines. Unlike the Lost Coast, which is sort of a catch-all for a couple lines in addition to providing a great line to toss in some of the more universal creatures out there, this idea is a bit more campaign-specific. However, the end goal would be to get some miniatures out that would both help with the campaign in question, but also appeal to the average DM or miniature collector.

Each set in this line would be an extension of one of the previous lines. It would be an open/visible package, so that the purchaser would know exactly what was included in this set. New packaging would need to be created for each set, but the overall size of each set in this line would not need to be changed. Each set in this line would line include six different pre-painted miniatures. Each set would consist of the following makeup in regards to size:
1 Small miniature
3 Medium miniatures
1 Large miniature
1 Huge miniature

The requirements from each set in this line is as follows:
--Each miniature MUST appear as an illustration at least somewhere throughout the Adventure Path in question. While many Adventure Paths rely on other source material, such as Campaign Settings and Player Companions, both the characters and creatures featured in this line must appear within the pages of an actual Adventure Path.

--Each creature in this line must also be found in one of the four Bestiaries. The illustration from either the Adventure Path or the Bestiary can be used, but the creature itself must appear in both sources.

--Each creature would, ideally, not already have a miniature made from either Paizo or in the old DDM line. This is easy for specific NPC's, but it becomes a bit harder when dealing with creatures. (At least when taking into consideration the other stipulations).

The reason for this is to increase appeal beyond the Adventure Path itself. Many DM's I've talked with like the Paizo miniature line, but they get frustrated that some of the creatures appear in sources outside of the Bestiary line of sourcebooks. Adventure Paths are understandable, of course, as they are basically the flagship concept for Paizo's Pathfinder line. But having to track down monsters and/or characters in Campaign Setting or Player Companion books is too much for them. Both in the financial sense and in the amount of time it takes to go through them.

By including creatures found in both material--and specifically mentioned that in both press releases for the product and on front of the package itself--it should help increase the level of appeal for DM's and players interested in the contents inside. While the package might be pushing Reign of Winter, for example, any DM that uses miniatures but only uses the Pathfinder Bestiaries sourcebooks when running their home made campaigns would still have interest in purchasing the set.

By making sure none of these characters/creatures are found in any previous miniature line, the incentive to purchase one of these packages grows even stronger.

Here is an example to illustrate what the line would look like. This is just what I was able to come up with after spending about half an hour looking through the Shattered Star Adventure Path.

Example #1:
Pathfinder Battles: Shattered Star…REVISITED!

Small Miniature (01) - King Zuuga (Mite) - Found on page 37 of Adventure Path #61: Shards of Sin.

--Every group of creatures needs a King, right? King Zuuga gives the fans of this Adventure Path another piece to use on their table while running the campaign. It also allows DM's that invested in the main Battles line but prefer to run their own campaigns an opportunity to put a leader to this group. They've already got a few individual Mites, and one or two on spiders, too. Now they finally have a King to help round out the collection and set up further adventures for their gaming group.

Medium Miniature (02) - Ayala Javeski (Female Human Natural Wererat Fighter/Rogue) - Found on page 33 of Adventure Path #61: Shards of Sin.

--You've never seen anything like this NPC before. Her illustration is wonderful, and she'd make for an intimidating NPC for any campaign. While there have been other Wererats in miniature lines before (including Skull & Shackles), I don't think I've ever seen a female one. This one has more of a humanoid-like look to it, while her leather armor gives her more of a fighter-type look to her. The other Wererat serves as a solid piece for any group of Wererats, but Ayala is much more distinct and ready to slide in as any NPC the gaming group might encounter.

Medium Miniature (03) - Xaivanshee Rasivrein (Female Drow Noble Cleric of Zura) - Found on page 60 & 61 of Adventure Path #65: Into the Nightmare Rift.

--Paizo hasn't stepped too heavily into the race of Drow yet as far as miniatures are concerned. Perhaps part of it is the large amount of Drow from the old DDM line. But this miniature would be a treat for any fan of Drow, or even a PC looking for a good female representation of a Drow. Although the character herself is a Cleric, her miniature could easily pass as a Fighter, Rogue or maybe even a two-weapon fighting Bard. It also allows DM's running the campaign itself to add another character from the NPC Gallery.

Medium Miniature (04) - Gnaeus Gnaru (Male Dhampir Magus) - Found on page 31 of Adventure Path #62: Curse of the Lady's Light.

--This Lawful Evil Dhampir wears a vicious grin on his face and wields Silverfang. The illustration is great, and he'd be a perfect NPC evil miniature for any game. Despite his grin, he'd make for a great Fighter, Rogue, Ranger or even Bard for any player willing to pick the Dhampir race of character.

Large Miniature (05) - General Stom (Female Fire Giant) - Found on page 13 & 14 of Adventure Path #65: Into the Nightmare Rift.

--This female fire giant would make for a wonderful counterpart to her male kin from the main Shattered Star Battles line. As far as I know, there is no female fire giant in either the Paizo or old DDM lines, so she'll be the first. This is one of my favorite illustrations from the Shattered Star Adventure Path, and I'd love to see her make it into miniature form. She also serves as an NPC for this Adventure Path that DM's will be thrilled to put on their tables.

Huge Miniature (06) - Gegganallag (Five-headed Pyrohydra) - Found on page 18 with illustration on page 6 of Adventure Path #62: Curse of the Lady's Light.

--I feel like this one is nearly self-explanatory. I've seen Hydras requested by different DM's and miniature collectors for a long time, long before I started using them at my table. The illustration on page 6 of the Adventure Path is nice, but it might make sense to go with the one from the Bestiary 1 (page 178). Either way, I'm not sure what else one needs to know, as this is one of the easiest decisions to make out of this entire Adventure Path. The only other consideration was the Mastodon. But this hits all the bases--never been made before, is a desired miniature, and is found in both the Adventure Path and Bestiary.

**I'm interested in any and all feedback. Any suggestions as far as improvements to what would make the line worth making? Do you think this could sell? Remember, these are just examples I used. But they give an idea of what each set could look like.

Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:

I really don't see the set appealing to the casual mini buyer. The only market I see for it is the collectors who must have everything, and the GM's running RoW.

I certainly don't want to discourage making sets like the RoW Huge pack. I like having variety in my minis (especially my huges), but if the sales of such sets are going to be the measure for future sets then I would rather see more "generic" sets which have a better chance of producing decent sales.

Someone's got his headband of whatever it is wisdom +6 on. I've got hundreds of minis now, and I looked at that pack more than once, wanting to want it, and failed. Not because they were badly done, but because they were so specifically not things I need. Random Huge fiend? Sure, because those can substitute for any other random Huge fiend. Huge humanoids? Sure, look, someone used enlarge person on the Hill Giant... run! Huge dragons, elementals, mammoths, sure. Maybe an aberration here or there. But "big worm"? Yeah, just somehow doesn't come up very often in my campaigns for some reason.

I deeply respect Erik's choices and applaud them, but - as you - desperately hope the risky choices aren't the ones used to gauge success. 'Cuz where I wouldn't buy a worm and a horse-dude, there's still Huge cash to be extracted from me. (Though I'm getting dragoned out, admittedly.)

I love hearing other opinions about Huge miniatures. I would have thought the Frost Worm would have been a big desire for just about any DM using miniatures. Perhaps that's only because I have wanted one ever since I started using miniatures at my table a couple years ago. Short of Frost Giants, there isn't another cold subtype creature I use as often in my campaigns.

I definitely see where you're coming from in general. Especially when it comes to the other guy. Personally I love the sculpt and paint job, but I have yet to run the Reign of Winter path yet. As I said, I'm big into creating cold regions, so I'll definitely fit him into my campaigns. But for the average buyer that might be hesitant to drop $30.00 on two miniatures (Huge or otherwise), it makes little sense to do so when one is campaign-specific.

A couple points.

1) Both of the Huge figures in that set were originally intended for other things (the Frost Worm was actually sculpted for _Heroes & Monsters_, to give you some idea of how long it's been around). Given that, I don't think it'd be fair to judge other Huge packs by how this one did (but then again, I am not WizKids).

2) I am going to raise the profile of the Svathuurim shortly. :)

My friend and long time DM doesn't often use miniatures in his campaigns. Like me, though, he's always been a fan of the Frost Warm. I bought him his own two-pack about a month ago as a birthday gift.

This whole discussion on here has left me thinking about Huge miniatures. So I called him a few minutes ago to ask him how he likes the Reign of Winter gift. He made some very good points:

--Both pieces are great, from a visual appearance. The sculpts are well done, as are the paint jobs.

--His biggest issue is that he doesn't really know anything about the other guy. The box just sort of says what he is and gives a brief description. There are no stats to go with him, and while it's obvious he can be found somewhere within the pages of the Reign of Winter Adventure Path, he doesn't use those.

--He even tried looking for him online on the Paizo OGC site and couldn't find the stats for him. My buddy has been DMing for over 20 years, and though he says he doesn't have a problem making up his own stats for a creature, he believes he shouldn't have to with a purchased miniature.

--He pointed to that as one of the main reasons he doesn't buy any of the Pathfinder miniatures, despite running campaigns primarily with the main Pathfinder source material.

--He uses the Pathfinder Minis gallery whenever a set is released so he can look over the entire set and see what is there. He likes the miniatures themselves, but some of them he is unsure about as far as what they are. He pointed to the Seaweed Siren as one of those he thought looked awesome, but couldn't find any information on until the latest Bestiary was released.

--He pointed out that he thinks the business model is somewhat foolish. He understands the importance of the Adventure Path, and thus making miniatures from creatures found in those pages. But as he points out, plenty of people don't play those Adventure Paths. Instead of making sure anyone who purchases a box of miniatures knows what he is getting, or has easy access to that knowledge, there is nothing.

--He pointed to the old DDM line, and brought up what I think is a good point. He said even though the cards that came in those boxes were stupid as far as gameplay went, it still informed the buyer of the booster pack what it was he had just received. They even had stats on the cards for the creatures.

--As he pointed out, it makes little sense to buy a pack of miniatures when there is a chance that he'd have to shell out even more money to find out information and stats for the pieces he received.

--He said most DM's that use the core source material for Pathfinder but nothing else and are considering a purchase of miniatures would likely do one of the two following things:

1) Once he or she is unable to find the information for a handful of creatures in the set, they will get online and obtain the necessary info-I.E. necessary Adventure Paths, Campaign Settings, etc.--through illegal means.

-->End Result: Paizo does get the money for the miniature purchase, but loses out on more money due to illegal downloads of material that accompanies the main source material.

2) More likely, the DM won't even buy the case to begin with, and instead buy the ones he or she really wants piecemeal from a secondary site where they are often cheaper than on the main Paizo webpage. Or the DM just won't purchase any miniatures from the set at all.

-->End Result: Paizo doesn't get any miniature money, nor any money for any other sources.

I feel like these are some good points. Because I've become obsessed with miniatures both on my gaming table and in general, I love getting online and checking every Friday for the reveals. I'm not bothered by the need to search through the Pathfinder stuff I have to find their stat blocks. It's fun for me, and I often get hung up on other material that I didn't know about or had forgotten about. It's sort of the equivalent of going on a Youtube dive.

But sometimes I forget I'm still among the small minority. Like my friend, I run campaigns from Pathfinder sourcebooks. But up until half a year ago or so I never used the Adventure Path books. I was using miniatures before that, however, so I could definitely understand not having the time or patience to go through material. And in some cases, simply not being able to find it anywhere short of the Adventure Paths themselves.

A couple points.

1) Both of the Huge figures in that set were originally intended for other things (the Frost Worm was actually sculpted for _Heroes & Monsters_, to give you some idea of how long it's been around). Given that, I don't think it'd be fair to judge other Huge packs by how this one did (but then again, I am not WizKids).

2) I am going to raise the profile of the Svathuurim shortly. :)

Good news, indeed.

As for Wizkids, thanks for the reminder. I tend to forget that there is more to the puzzle than just Paizo and your own personal desires, Erik. I suppose if they don't sell the amount they were hoping to, they can simply say "yeah, let us not do that again" or something. Maybe it's much more complicated than that, but maybe that is the gist of it.

One question, regarding the Huge miniatures in general. You've mentioned several times over the last few months that they are somewhat problematic. Is this primarily on the the demand assessment end and/or packaging end? Or are there actual line production issues that make them tricky?

I understand that it would be difficult to try and find a way to get them made as far as sets go (demand) or fitting them into pre-existing sets (packaging). But if there are actual line production issues of the miniatures themselves, that's something I haven't really taken into account.

Snipped for space

Someone's got his headband of whatever it is wisdom +6 on. I've got hundreds of minis now, and I looked at that pack more than once, wanting to want it, and failed. Not because they were badly done, but because they were so specifically not things I need. Random Huge fiend? Sure, because those can substitute for any other random Huge fiend. Huge humanoids? Sure, look, someone used enlarge person on the Hill Giant... run! Huge dragons, elementals, mammoths, sure. Maybe an aberration here or there. But "big worm"? Yeah, just somehow doesn't come up very often in my campaigns for some reason.

I agree that a straight up Mammoth (without rider) would make for a great Huge miniature. These seem to pop up in enough Adventure Paths and home made campaigns that it seems like it would be one of the ones that sell.

Having said that, here are two suggestions that actually work.

If one goal is to use Mammoths in the arctic cold regions, and thus pair them with Frost Giants, the old DDM line has a Tundra Scout in the Huge category. It's literally a Frost Giant on a big Mastodon.

They are relatively cheap in price. I purchased a few awhile back, and they are a solid miniature. I have purchased four with the scouts on them. Three of them remain that way, and I ripped the scout off the last one, just so I'd have one without anyone on it.

If you're looking for a mammoth that you don't need to desecrate, and that doesn't have any barding on it, I suggest looking into this guy:

http://www.thejunglestore.com/Gift-Catalog/Safari-LTD-/Woolly-Mammoth-Figur ine-By-Safari-Ltd-SAF279929

Out of all the companies that make these types of animals, he's my least favorite design. However, he's the only one I can say with certainty fits on a 3" base.

Until Paizo gets around to making a mastodon miniature of their own, these guys will have to do.

Speaking of Animal miniatures, here is how I look at them.

I'm a huge fan of Animals in my campaigns, and I appreciate any Small, Medium or Large Animal miniature from Paizo. Others say they can be found elsewhere (from other toy lines), but I find most of those to be way too big.

I like them because they can be used as animal companions, familiars, etc. Additionally, druids can wild shape into them, arcane casters can polymorph into them, and they make for great groups of creatures in forests, plains, jungles etc. I love sending a pack of wolves after the group, or surrounding them with Dire (Insert Animal Here).

Huge Animals are a bit different. I've successfully based a few of the Huge-sized figurines from other toy companies like Papo and Safari Ltd.

This also works with certain Gargantuan and Colossal animal miniatures on their respective base sizes.

With spells like animal growth often cast by members of my party on their pets during battle, once they are able, sometimes bigger representation is needed. Most Large sized creatures can be found in what would be Huge form. Likewise, many of the bigger animals that normally would be huge or gargantuan size in the game can be found a size larger among the other toy manufacturers.

For those DM's or players looking for a one-step size increase for their larger companions or familiars, I suggest checking the toy lines. You might find what you are looking for, and it's just a simple matter of basing your own miniature.

A couple points.

1) Both of the Huge figures in that set were originally intended for other things (the Frost Worm was actually sculpted for _Heroes & Monsters_, to give you some idea of how long it's been around). Given that, I don't think it'd be fair to judge other Huge packs by how this one did (but then again, I am not WizKids).

2) I am going to raise the profile of the Svathuurim shortly. :)

Sorry I it came across differently too what was intended. I was actually trying to say that we haven't heard from you In regard to how wizkids felt about the huge pack. I realise from some earlier posts about it that this was an unusual one. That said I loved it. Great ice worm and the svathurim sees a fair bit of use as a fiendish form in my wrath game.

Was there not also a cloud giant slated for Runelords? Will we see this one soon? I would certainly pick up several giants sets.

As always your work and time is much appreciated.

Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper wrote:

I really don't see the set appealing to the casual mini buyer. The only market I see for it is the collectors who must have everything, and the GM's running RoW.

I certainly don't want to discourage making sets like the RoW Huge pack. I like having variety in my minis (especially my huges), but if the sales of such sets are going to be the measure for future sets then I would rather see more "generic" sets which have a better chance of producing decent sales.

Someone's got his headband of whatever it is wisdom +6 on. I've got hundreds of minis now, and I looked at that pack more than once, wanting to want it, and failed. Not because they were badly done, but because they were so specifically not things I need. Random Huge fiend? Sure, because those can substitute for any other random Huge fiend. Huge humanoids? Sure, look, someone used enlarge person on the Hill Giant... run! Huge dragons, elementals, mammoths, sure. Maybe an aberration here or there. But "big worm"? Yeah, just somehow doesn't come up very often in my campaigns for some reason.

I deeply respect Erik's choices and applaud them, but - as you - desperately hope the risky choices aren't the ones used to gauge success. 'Cuz where I wouldn't buy a worm and a horse-dude, there's still Huge cash to be extracted from me. (Though I'm getting dragoned out, admittedly.)

I agree. In fact, I bought the RoW encounter set almost solely for the Frost Worm. Now I have all the Huge Worms I will probably ever need. :D

-Skeld

For those who aren't interested in holding on to their Svathuurim, I'd be more than happy to take him off your hands.

Within a week, I should have a handful of Russian Machine Gunners available for trade. Perhaps I'll also have a couple Russian Soldiers available.

I'm one of those people who never saw this post until Erik linked to it yesterday, and I was feeling pretty bummed about missing 2 weeks of posts, so this was great to find!

Re: earlier stuff said in this thread, I'm one of those people who sells a lot of minis in the secondary market, and I've got to say that I'm big on Huge elementals. In my experience, they're always very popoular and hold their value. The Earth Titan from DDM always goes fast, and their Huge Fire Elemental also does well. Their Thunderblast Cyclone also sells pretty reliably, though isn't worth as much. And how lovely it would be to have a Huge Water Elemental at all! The folks at Dungeon Crawler had tried to Kickstart one a couple years back, but it didn't work out, so that's still a big hole. I'd definitely support a stand-alone pack of Huge Elementals.
I also wonder if you couldn't do that as a case incentive *instead of* a Gargantuan monster? Is a highly desirable set of Huges as exciting as a single Gargantuan? I'm sure many will say no, but there's this to be said for it: It's a rare person who would imagine putting more than one Gargantuan dragon on the table at one time for an encounter, but multiple Huge elementals at once is easy to contemplate, so I think you'd find people wanting more of these than they would of any single Gargantuan model.
I also wanted to say something about the RoW Huge pack. I love the idea of the Huge packs, but I was pretty surprised at that one specifically. The Frost Worm made all sorts of sense to me (The DDM Purple Worm has always been in high demand, and such things just look cool. You might even get some crossover on worms from fantasy to scifi and pulp gamers, since worm-like creatures show up in multiple genres.) But the Svathurim really made sense only for a narrow range of gamers who will run that particular adventure as DMs. It's simply not core enough to entice most people. I honor your intentions here, and I love it about you folks that you'll make a mini like that because you think it's cool, but honestly I'd rather see you making Huge minis that are iconic and show up all over the place, because (1) I hope to sell lots of these in the long run, and (2) I want these lines to be successful for you so you'll keep making them.
For the same reason, I didn't like the RotR Huge packs. There were some awesome ones in there -- the Treachery Demon and Karzoug Statue are the stand-outs. But the Storm Giant and Lamia Harridan simply aren't as cool, as core, or as valuable in the after-market. So buying one randomly felt dangerous. (If you could find them in the store to handle, though, the Demon and the Statue are so much heavier than the others that it's easy to identify them, so you know just which ones to pick up if you're lucky enough to find them somewhere in hand.) Honestly, I think the best way to handle Huges is to have special packs like the RoW pack, but you ruthlessly keep yourself focused on the best-known and most desired minis that the widest range of DM's will have a use for, ideally in multiples. You can get away with weirdos like the Seaweed Siren (which, fwiw, I've *never* been able to sell one of in the secondary market :-p) in a blind pack as a Large, but I just don't think you can use the same reasoning when talking about high-ticket Huges.

Oh, and I meant to add: Thrilled about the forest drake! I just wish he was going to come out before my players are due to encounter one o.O. Drakes are hard to sub for, since you don't want to just use a dragon.