Tell Me About Your "Paladin"

Monday, March 17, 2014


Death attack: It's the new smite evil.

When it comes to creating characters, I think we all have at least one stereotype, habit, or guilty pleasure that we fall back on. Perhaps you love playing two-handed melee bruisers, or maybe you can't stop designing oracles. I've known my share of folks who would repeatedly build idealized versions of themselves as well as those who are hard-pressed to leave the house with an Armor Class below 20 at 1st-level.

Me? I can't stop creating characters that masquerade as a member of another class. Whether its a druid nearly indistinguishable from a bard, a witch who tries to be a cleric, or an inquisitor that claims to be a ninja, something about characters that pretend to be something else scratches an essential design itch of mine. A recent messageboard post reminded me of one of my favorite classes to emulate: the paladin. The player in question had a "paladin" of Yaezhing—in truth an oracle of the brutally evil deity—which gave me considerable amusement.

I've run across several such non-paladins. One was a "paladin" of Cayden Cailean, complete with a scimitar he ignorantly referred to as a rapier, as well as a "smite sobriety" class feature. While under its effects, the "paladin" would undergo a major change in accent and personality, after which he remembered nothing. Of course, on his character sheet he is a bard with the archaeologist archetype (and "smite sobriety" is simply archaeologist's luck renamed), who chose spells like remove fear and cure light wounds to further his character concept.

The other "paladin" is one I had a hand in creating, for my Razmiri priest is always on the lookout for converts. Having convinced another player's samurai that Razmir is a god of healing, prosperity, love, and just retribution, she swore the oaths of a paladin and claimed Razmir as her patron. Sure, her "divine grace" may actually involve daily uses of resolve, her "smite evil" works on any target due to its being the samurai's challenge, and her mount has never imagined a good-aligned plane much less been summoned from one. Nonetheless, she's one of the most altruistic paladins I've ever come across.

I find Pathfinder Society Organized Play is a great way to try out this type of character. Do you know any particularly weird "paladins?" If so, how did that character emulate the class features or otherwise accomplish the deception?

Happy gaming,

John Compton
Developer

Illustration by Craig J Spearing

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1/5 *

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

My favorite 3.5 PC was an gnome druid/bard mix, so when I decided I wanted to recreate him for Pathfinder Society Organized play, I decided to play a Summoner from Uringen that believed he was some sort of bard/druid mix common back in the First World. My eidolon took evolutions to make him as close to a stock Badger druid animal companion as I could, including starting him as a Small Eidolon and not progressing to a Medium Eidolon until I hit 4th level. (Curse the Burrow evolution for requiring a 9th level summoner!) I also restricted my spells known to spells that were either on the Bard list or the Druid list. While i may have strayed a bit from this to prepare for Bonekeep (why yes, some badgers can pounce, why do you ask?), the shtick has been a lot of fun.

As an aside, my favorite character in a different roleplaying game system just happens to be just the sort of "paladin" you mention in your article.

5/5

I too enjoy toying with the stereotypes a bit. Most of the time I simply admire others' delightful creations. My own contribution is something of the reverse.

For our Council of Thieves adventure path, I decided on playing a Halfling bard actor, obsessed with playing the part of the (often farcical) Paladin on the Chelish stage. In his case, he started as a bard, but almost unwittingly became a paladin by class through his deeds and convincing (to himself) portrayal of one.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 *

I'm working on making Dwarven "Paladin" of Mortality that carries a holy symbol of the Vitruvian Man. He is a First Law Cavalier that likes to use "Smite Pews", it's been a difficult debate on whether or not to chant "pew pew pew" while my challenge is up. Still needs a lot of work though.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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I made an Andoran Gunslinger/Inquisitor of Cayden. Because nothing venerates the god of alcohol and freedom, like irresponsible firearm usage and patriotic bravado.

Dark Archive 4/5 ****

I am deeply honored to be mentioned in the blog

Scarab Sages 4/5

Nick Baumeister wrote:
He is a First Law Cavalier

Unfortunately this was recently made illegal.

I know, I was upset too. I already had mine up to 2nd level when the ruling was changed.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 ****

Majuba wrote:

I too enjoy toying with the stereotypes a bit. Most of the time I simply admire others' delightful creations. My own contribution is something of the reverse.

Thorne...

THORNE!
THORNE!!!

Do not be fooled by that charlatan's parlor tricks, for I am the real Most Powerful Mage in *ALL* Absalom.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 *

Mike Tuholski wrote:
Nick Baumeister wrote:
He is a First Law Cavalier

Unfortunately this was recently made illegal.

I know, I was upset too. I already had mine up to 2nd level when the ruling was changed.

I was actually JUST about to edit my post as I was inspired to finish him up and saw that, thank you for confirming the sinking feeling in my heart. To me he will always follow the one true law of man :(

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

2 people marked this as a favorite.

So, I hate to be "that guy," but if I don't SOMEONE will...

This smells suspiciously like re-skinning is now kosher. Is that the case?

Silver Crusade 2/5

I've had sort of the opposite experience of what this blog's talking about; I'm a cleric of Iomedae, and have no pretenses of being anything else, yet more than once I've had comrades mistake me for a paladin all on their own.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Hi, I'm Lennie!

4/5

First World Bard wrote:

My favorite 3.5 PC was an gnome druid/bard mix, so when I decided I wanted to recreate him for Pathfinder Society Organized play, I decided to play a Summoner from Uringen that believed he was some sort of bard/druid mix common back in the First World. My eidolon took evolutions to make him as close to a stock Badger druid animal companion as I could, including starting him as a Small Eidolon and not progressing to a Medium Eidolon until I hit 4th level. (Curse the Burrow evolution for requiring a 9th level summoner!) I also restricted my spells known to spells that were either on the Bard list or the Druid list. While i may have strayed a bit from this to prepare for Bonekeep (why yes, some badgers can pounce, why do you ask?), the shtick has been a lot of fun.

As an aside, my favorite character in a different roleplaying game system just happens to be just the sort of "paladin" you mention in your article.

I immediately thought of your Uringen summoner when I read this blog!

4/5

Drogon wrote:

So, I hate to be "that guy," but if I don't SOMEONE will...

This smells suspiciously like re-skinning is now kosher. Is that the case?

I think John's just talking about characters who lie about what they are or are wrong about what they are (like the deluded "Razmiri paladin"). That has never been a problem (like in the infamous dog/pig incident, if the player accepted that her character was delusional and called her dog a pig, there was no problem).

5/5

Farak, the Most Powerful Mage wrote:
THORNE!!!

*cackle*

*stirs*

Nice drawing Chun Hei!

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Drogon wrote:

So, I hate to be "that guy," but if I don't SOMEONE will...

This smells suspiciously like re-skinning is now kosher. Is that the case?

The difference to me is this:

• Reskinning: When you claim something is actually something else and claim they are similar enough that this change can stand due to not bending the rules too much.

The riding dog which is reskinned as a riding pig, to bring up a sore example.

• This: Nothing is changed, but the character argues in character that one thing is something else -- when it clearly isn't. As long as the player is forthcoming about the reality behind their character and limits the changes to simply the opinion of their character, it isn't reskinning.

In this case, the PC is riding a riding dog -- everyone can clearly see it is a dog. It's just that the PC insists in character that it is a pig. Perfectly legal.

4/5

Will Johnson wrote:
Drogon wrote:

So, I hate to be "that guy," but if I don't SOMEONE will...

This smells suspiciously like re-skinning is now kosher. Is that the case?

The difference to me is this:

• Reskinning: When you claim something is actually something else and claim they are similar enough that this change can stand due to not bending the rules too much.

The riding dog which is reskinned as a riding pig, to bring up a sore example.

• This: Nothing is changed, but the character argues in character that one thing is something else -- when it clearly isn't. As long as the player is forthcoming about the reality behind their character and limits the changes to simply the opinion of their character, it isn't reskinning.

In this case, the PC is riding a riding dog -- everyone can clearly see it is a dog. It's just that the PC insists in character that it is a pig. Perfectly legal.

We ninjaed each other with the same example! That's because great minds think alike Will :D

4/5 ****

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Majuba wrote:
Farak, the Most Powerful Mage wrote:
THORNE!!!

*cackle*

*stirs*

Nice drawing Chun Hei!

I commissioned that piece from Paizo's very own Liz Courts for Chun Hei and I absolutely love it.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

I'll direct the person I'm thinking of to this thread, so they can elaborate on this, as I forget all the great details.

I know someone that played an oread sorcerer who wanted to worship Grumbar. But since Grumbar doesn't exist in Pathfinder, he had to come up with a story that would make sense.

So he decided that his character was from the Hao Jin tapestry, where his ancestors had worshiped the god of earth—Grumbar. After the Pathfinders accessed Round Mountain in Season 3, his character found his way out of the tapestry and joined the society. However, since Grumbar doesn't exist in this "strange new world," he started worshiping the closest god he could find—Torag.

He now carries the traditional Grumbarrian tablet, a massive 100 pound stone slab with terran runes, and spreads the word of Grumbar and Torag wherever he goes.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Drogon wrote:

So, I hate to be "that guy," but if I don't SOMEONE will...

This smells suspiciously like re-skinning is now kosher. Is that the case?

Re-skinning, as I interpret it, is presenting an item, animal companion, or character race "A" as though it were "B" in-game with no means for anyone (NPCs, creatures, GM, etc.) to realize that you are actually "A"—barring rules or character mechanics that would normally allow this misdirection. It would be re-skinning for someone to have a greatsword, call it a quarterstaff on his character sheet, and insist that everyone in-game see it as a quarterstaff. The Pathfinder Society Organized Play FAQ provides other examples of what would not be appropriate.

However, if your sorcerer wants to wave around a holy symbol of Nethys and claim to be a cleric, I don't take issue so long as anyone who can make the Spellcraft check can determine that she's casting arcane spells. If you want to tie a snow leopard pelt to a camel, name him Droogami, and claim that its a small cat, I'm not concerned so long as NPCs have the opportunity to see through your ruse as noted in the Pathfinder RPG rules.

[dice=Disguise (4 Charisma, 1 rank of Disguise, disguise kit, penalty for different size, "race," and an ad hoc -2 to cover any other matters)]1d20-3+1+2-2-2-2[/dice]

Yep, that's just a weird camel.

Others have beaten me to this message, it seems.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Hi! I'm Mea, and I'm a dragon! And a wizard, cuz I cast spells.

Mea is, among other things, a bard and a dragon disciple. Most of all she's not very bright.

Scarab Sages 4/5 ***

What's that? No, I'm just a monk with UNUSUALLY powerful ki.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

John Compton wrote:
Drogon wrote:

So, I hate to be "that guy," but if I don't SOMEONE will...

This smells suspiciously like re-skinning is now kosher. Is that the case?

Re-skinning, as I interpret it, is presenting an item, animal companion, or character race "A" as though it were "B" in-game with no means for anyone (NPCs, creatures, GM, etc.) to realize that you are actually "A"—barring rules or character mechanics that would normally allow this misdirection. It would be re-skinning for someone to have a greatsword, call it a quarterstaff on his character sheet, and insist that everyone in-game see it as a quarterstaff. The Pathfinder Society Organized Play FAQ provides other examples of what would not be appropriate.

However, if your sorcerer wants to wave around a holy symbol of Nethys and claim to be a cleric, I don't take issue so long as anyone who can make the Spellcraft check can determine that she's casting arcane spells. If you want to tie a snow leopard pelt to a camel, name him Droogami, and claim that its a small cat, I'm not concerned so long as NPCs have the opportunity to see through your ruse as noted in the Pathfinder RPG rules.

[dice=Disguise (4 Charisma, 1 rank of Disguise, disguise kit, penalty for different size, "race," and an ad hoc -2 to cover any other matters)]1d20-3+1+2-2-2-2

Yep, that's just a weird camel.

Others have beaten me to this message, it seems.

Fair. And to you two, as well, Mark and Will.

I just wanted to be sure the difference was clear for when it inevitably comes up at one of my events. (-:

4/5

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I have Kalindrius and Allandalae, a husband and wife team of two celestial beings that hail from the angelic city of Llourith in Nirvana.
They both have mettalic gold skin and white hair and glowing white eyes. Both have angelic tattoos on their foreheads...

I've been questioned several time how I'm playing two characters at the same time in PFS...

Liberty's Edge 2/5

I personally prefer my version of a non-killing paladin. Doesn't care for attempting to kill evil do-ers for what they have done. If even a demon can be redeemed, then anyone can be redeemed. He doesn't believe in passing judgement on another creature.

Even picked up Ultimate mercy on the off-chance of a badly timed critical.

4/5

June Soler wrote:

I have Kalindrius and Allandalae, a husband and wife team of two celestial beings that hail from the angelic city of Llourith in Nirvana.

They both have mettalic gold skin and white hair and glowing white eyes. Both have angelic tattoos on their foreheads...

I've been questioned several time how I'm playing two characters at the same time in PFS...

Just be careful with this one
Eidolon wrote:
The eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature. This control is not fine enough to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature.

Even published modules

Which ones:
Bloodcove Disguise and The Harrowing
have sidestepped this one, but by the rules of the class, the eidolon cannot appear to be a specific other type of creature, but instead is clearly a fantastical creature of some sort (though not one that an untrained planar scholar can identify). From your description, it sounds like you're fine anyway, as the eidolon can be some indeterminate fantastical celestial being that doesn't appear to be any particular type of angel or aasimar, but I've seen people say theirs is indistinguishable from a human before, which is a no go without the Disguise skill.
4/5

My eidolon has Celestial Appearance Evolution(3pt) The eidolon appears as a celestial creature and manifests some of the abilities of a celestial.

I also took the description from Ultimate Magic :The eidolon looks like a celestial being such as an angel, archon, or azata. Angel eidolons usually appear as beautiful humanoids with large, feathered wings.

4/5

June Soler wrote:

My eidolon has Celestial Appearance Evolution(3pt) The eidolon appears as a celestial creature and manifests some of the abilities of a celestial.

I also took the description from Ultimate Magic :The eidolon looks like a celestial being such as an angel, archon, or azata. Angel eidolons usually appear as beautiful humanoids with large, feathered wings.

Yup, that works well. As long as it isn't exactly mimicking the appearance of a particular subtype of angel (and it doesn't sound like it is), you're completely good as far as I can see!

Liberty's Edge 2/5 *

As a rule I can honestly say this is something ive never done. Generally when I make a new character Ive seen or read something that gives me an idea. After i get the story idea, I use the class that best represents that idea. I wouldnt attempt to make that character using a class that wouldnt fit what Im after.

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/55/55/5

John Compton wrote:
Disguise (4 Charisma, 1 rank of Disguise, disguise kit, penalty for different size, "race," and an ad hoc -2 to cover any other matters): 1d20 - 3 + 1 + 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 ⇒ (2) - 3 + 1 + 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 = -4

Dear Gods man, what is a snow leopard doing in the middle of the dessert?"

Shadow Lodge 2/5

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I can't say that I've ever had a character pretend to be another class (yet), but I did have one character who was a paladin in all but abilities. Horatio, of the Silver Crusade, studied with the Golden Legion in order to maximize his ability to defend his allies. With the ability to add +12 to the AC of anyone adjacent to him, intercept attacks that would have injured his allies, and prevent any foe from getting past him, even with a 5-foot step. In the end, he died after suffering 18 points of Con damage, holding off Runelord Krune to ensure that his allies were able to safely escape, and left instructions that the last of his prestige and gold be used to raise the two who he failed, even though that meant that he would never be raised. A truly heroic end to one of the most heroic characters I ever played.

1/5 *

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:


Just be careful with this one
Eidolon wrote:
The eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature. This control is not fine enough to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature.
Even published modules ** spoiler omitted ** have sidestepped this one, but by the rules of the class, the eidolon cannot appear to be a specific other type of creature, but instead is clearly a fantastical creature of some sort (though not one that an untrained planar scholar can identify). From your description, it sounds like you're fine anyway, as the eidolon can be some indeterminate fantastical celestial being that doesn't appear to be any particular type of angel or aasimar, but I've seen people say theirs is indistinguishable from a human before, which is a no go without the Disguise skill.

Huh, I always thought that "specific creature" was synonymous with "specific individual", in that you could make an an Eidolon look just like a pig, but not just like Squeely Nord. I mean, minus the glowing rune and fantastical creature caveats, of course.

Liberty's Edge 2/5

Yeah, sometimes, when snooty types ask me what it is I do, I just look 'em in the eye and say, "Fighter".

Then, in a fight, insults get thrown, beers get drank, and I raise my voice a little, then the next thing that Aspis wizard knows, he's got one arm around his neck and the other up his nose. Serves 'em right.

Sir Montgomery Brannag is a Brutal Pugilist barbarian with 12 Int who isn't actually barbaric.

Shadow Lodge 2/5

In Kingmaker once, someone brought in a self-proclaimed Paladin of Nethys. His sword glowed when he shouted, "Smite Evil!", even though he was only smiting a dire boar.

The others didn't get it and kept telling him that he was a magus, but I let him believe what he wanted (and thought that was a fun idea). Unfortunately, he got bored of it right around the time that his guy got killed, which was early into the next session.

Silver Crusade

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I haven't made the character yet, but I had an idea for a "paladin" based on Paladin Alexander Anderson from Hellsing. He would wear a cassock-like coat like Anderson's over his armor. During any non-combat situation, he would be calm, if a little fatalistic, and quote Pharasman scripture constantly and do what he can to avoid combat.

The second combat becomes unavoidable or he sees an undead creature, he rages.

Mechanically, he would actually be an urban beast totem barbarian with ranks in diplomacy and knowledge (religion) and heal traited on as class skills.

For his race, he is a half-orc (for the bite and to mimic Anderson's height) that mostly favors his human side (probably represented by trading away darkvision for skilled).

His backstory would be that he was a child from Belkzen that was left on the door of a Ustalavian Pharasman church, leaving him to be raised by a dour dwarven cleric (think Scottish Presbyterian with the full-on Calvinist fatalism).

Lantern Lodge 5/5

Master Sawatashi Hasegawa (Halfling Filcher Rogue 12) passed herself off as a monk to most she met. Her monastery taught her to strike fast and from unexpected angles (sneak attack) and to strike pressure points to quickly incapacitate enemies (Sap Adept/Master). Naturally, her training allowed her hands to be quicker than the eye in most cases (Max ranks Sleight of Hand), and to move across the battle with knowledge (Kirin Style) and grace (Combat Expertise and max Acrobatics) as her primary defenses.

Eventually, her studies included advanced pacification techniques (Improved Disarm /Weapon Snatcher) and increased training in identifying exotic opponents' pressure points (Kirin Strike).

Not quite a Paladin, but same idea.

2/5 ****

Of course, some of us just play strange Paladins...


I have a character who presents himself as a diplomat. He's well spoken, attends all the right embassy functions, speaks many languages.

He's really a ninja shadowdancer.

He just got his shadow companion. Currently trying to figure out what all the shadow can do. Can it speak? Can it use ghost touch gear? The rulebooks are a little fuzzy on this stuff.

-j


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Years ago in a 1e campaign a friend of mine had a charactr named Vishanti. He dressed in robes, threw darts had a quarter staff and when playing with him.. you never noticed that the character never did any actual magic.

Turns out under the robes he was a fighter.. tho that game only got to lvl 3 so its likely somone would have picked up on the not doing magic eventually.

2/5

Wait a minute, since when was reskinning not "kosher?" The 4th edition tables I've played at all seemed to assume that you will reskin. Hero System, as another example, doesn't even make sense without reskinning. In my experience, reskinning is the law of the land in a good percentage (perhaps as many as half) of gaming groups.

And honestly, who decides what's kosher and what isn't? The game is out there now and we can play it any way we want. I don't really see how you can stop people from reskinning. It would be ridiculous to try to come up with a workable rule with regards to this. Where do you draw the line? Almost all of my characters are "reskinned" in one way or another. Some examples:

1. I play an elven ninja/bard based on Deedlit from Record of Lodoss War. If that series is any indication, the Japanese (quite appropriately I think) pictured elves as something akin to magical Shinto forest ninjas. When you watch the series, it's amazing how right this feels. So my character is not a ninja in the traditional sense at all. She never went to Tian Xia and trained to be one. She learned her magical ki skillz from the elven scouts of her native land. Also, her sword is technically a scimitar that I "reskin" as a "curved elvish blade." She has Dervish Dance not because she ever trained in Qadira, but because it's aesthetically (and systematically) appropriate for the character.

2. I play an aasimar Druid (with Asian flavor- sort of like the empress of heaven's celestial handmaiden/bodyguards in Journey to the West) who has a celestial elasmosaurus companion. I describe it as looking like a small (i.e. Large) imperial river dragon. Because the idea of a literal celestial elasmosaurus is, well, kind of dumb. She also has a level of Rogue with the Thug archetype, intended purely to simulate her awesome and terrifying heavenly presence. She is, obviously, not thuggish in any way.

3. I play a dhampir monk who has many abilities (spider climb, cold resistance, steal ki, etc) designed to represent powers gained from her vampiric heritage rather than from any actual monk training, despite the fact that these abilities technically come from her class and from feats. Aesthetically, she's supposed to be a bit like Hsien Ko from Darkstalkers.

And so on. If I wanted to make an Inquisitor and say he came from an order of paladins, I would totally do this and I wouldn't think the character was lying about it. If you think about it, it's a bit stupid if people in-game know that a "Paladin" is a thing. They know what a paladin is, of course. It's a holy knight with some godly powers, regardless of which class it is.

I had thought SKR's release of "File Off the Serial Numbers" recently might have once and for all put to bed the debate about reskinning in Pathfinder culture (i.e. reskinning is awesome and good). But apparently, sadly, it hasn't.

Incidentally, I recognize that there are instances where reskinning can can be used in ways where the reskin conflicts with the actual mechanics of what the reskinned thing does. Or, obviously, it can be used in a way that make things more stupid instead of more awesome. Well, don't do that stuff. What more is there to say about that?

4/5

I'm on a phone, so this will be a brief response, but:
1) there is an important distinction between Pathfinder culture and PFS culture.
2) most of your examples are about fluff, not reskinning. See Will and John Compton's posts above for examples.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Erick Wilson wrote:

Wait a minute, since when was reskinning not "kosher?" The 4th edition tables I've played at all seemed to assume that you will reskin. Hero System, as another example, doesn't even make sense without reskinning. In my experience, reskinning is the law of the land in a good percentage (perhaps as many as half) of gaming groups.

And honestly, who decides what's kosher and what isn't? The game is out there now and we can play it any way we want. I don't really see how you can stop people from reskinning. It would be ridiculous to try to come up with a workable rule with regards to this. Where do you draw the line? Almost all of my characters are "reskinned" in one way or another. Some examples:

1. I play an elven ninja/bard based on Deedlit from Record of Lodoss War. If that series is any indication, the Japanese (quite appropriately I think) pictured elves as something akin to magical Shinto forest ninjas. When you watch the series, it's amazing how right this feels. So my character is not a ninja in the traditional sense at all. She never went to Tian Xia and trained to be one. She learned her magical ki skillz from the elven scouts of her native land. Also, her sword is technically a scimitar that I "reskin" as a "curved elvish blade." She has Dervish Dance not because she ever trained in Qadira, but because it's aesthetically (and systematically) appropriate for the character.

2. I play an aasimar Druid (with Asian flavor- sort of like the empress of heaven's celestial handmaiden/bodyguards in Journey to the West) who has a celestial elasmosaurus companion. I describe it as looking like a small (i.e. Large) imperial river dragon. Because the idea of a literal celestial elasmosaurus is, well, kind of dumb. She also has a level of Rogue with the Thug archetype, intended purely to simulate her awesome and terrifying heavenly presence. She is, obviously, not thuggish in any way.

3. I play a dhampir monk who has many abilities (spider climb, cold resistance, steal ki, etc)...

This Blog post was for PFS. In PFS reskinning is not allowed.

Sczarni 4/5

I am a Priest of the Living God, Razmir. I am not as good at casting those healing spells as I shall be, but I do my best.

Sorcerer, Razmiran Priest archetype. Just for a couple of added weirdnesses, he has the Undead bloodline, and he is a kitsune, although it is hard to tell with his mask on. And he never takes it off...

1/5

I just got to 2nd level with my Trapper Freebooter Ranger / Archeologist Bard. As I really didn't see much good coming from being pirate Indiana Jones, I've "reimagined" what the character actually is... So he's a 2 meters tall, Ulfen warrior, specialised in robbing old temples, churches, graves and ruins - he's a very capable warrior with his big axe (a Bardiche), and he has picked up "sejd" magic along the way, and will become more and more adept at using magic to improve his fighting and to support his allies. Basically he's a really crafty viking.

In regards to paladins, I've copied this from an older post of mine:

I have a character who I've essentially modelled after the "lawful stupid" paladin cliché. He's from Cheliax and it's his faction as well. He's not a paladin though - he is LN and has 1 level cavalier and 7 levels of inquisitor of Erastil.

From a roleplaying angle his focus is on the farming, family and community aspects of Erastil. And then he's completely brainwashed by the chelaxian authorities. He believes himself to fight for the greater good and what's right, but too often he's simply just following orders or commiting acts that are not so good, but that he thinks serves the community (aka his current adventuring group, the society and/or Cheliax).

He often wades into battle wielding his greatsword and shouting things like "For family and order!", "For the community!" or "For unity!"

It's an added bonus that he's an orphaned half-orc that pretty much sees himself as a human and believes that it's your actions and not your race, that define who you are. Generally he's always trying to do what's "right" but sometimes failing quite miserably.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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Erick Wilson wrote:

Wait a minute, since when was reskinning not "kosher?"

I play an elven ninja/bard based on Deedlit from Record of Lodoss War. ... Also, her sword is technically a scimitar that I "reskin" as a "curved elvish blade."

As long as everybody who sees the weapon recognizes it as a scimitar, as opposed to an Elven Curveblade, nobody has any problem with that. Call it a hammer, if you want.

(I've seen players like this. "He pulls his (airquotes) 'katana' --which looks much like a bastard sword with a decorative pommel-- and readies to attack if an opponent draws near." Everybody's cool with that.)

But since the early days, the campaign leadership has not allowed players to claim that one thing in the game (animal companion, equipment, spell) is apparently something else in the game world that has seperate statistics. Your magic missile doesn't look like icicles. (Or at least, Spellcraft still identifies it as magic missile, with no penalty.) Your dwarf can't say that his mount "is a bear" that uses the horse statistics. Your sword does not look like a light-sabre. All of that is "re-skinning" with a mechanical effect.

You can absolutely play a character who makes exotic claims. Maybe he is bluffing everybody he meets. Maybe he's deranged. (I play a summoner who claims that his eidolon is his dead wife. On his bad days, he doesn't even notice that she's 9'-tall, blue, scaled, with insectoid features, wings, and pincers.)

--

The concern I raise about people playing Class X and claiming it's a paladin is that, against Erick's claims, a Paladin really is a thing in Golarion. The typical stoneworker may not know her as much more than a knight who fights evil and has some magic powers, but more sophisticated people would have a pretty good idea what a paladin is. Certainly, anybody who has fought besides one knows that a paladin can heal people, that people near her have an easier time finding their courage, and that she is the wrath of heavens against undead or dragons.

And one remarkable thing about paladins is that they cannot lie or break their word, and then carry on as if nothing has happened. So paladins make great diplomats under the right circumstances, because they are often persuasive, and because they are trust-worthy.

If my battle oracle is passing herself off as a paladin, she can trade off that reputation, and her lies will be all the more believable when she casts a minor spell afterwards. Surely, no paladin could maintain her powers after speaking false.

And when her honeyed words are revealed as so much dross, she sullies the reputation of all real paladins. I would imagine that thee are some holy warriors out there who would wish to have a word with such a character.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Chris Mortika wrote:
The concern I raise about people playing Class X and claiming it's a paladin is that, against Erick's claims, a Paladin really is a thing in Golarion. The typical stoneworker may not know her as much more than a knight who fights evil and has some magic powers, but more sophisticated people would have a pretty good idea what a paladin is. Certainly, anybody who has fought besides one knows that a paladin can heal people, that people near her have an easier time finding their courage, and that she is the wrath of heavens against undead or dragons.

I think the advent of archetypes has changed this. There's so many different abilities that they might have that you'd have to be familiar with EVERY paladin order, sect, group, and lone master to know that there wasn't a paladin that COULD train to summon hound archons instead of a horse.


Though we really haven't had a chance to play it, one of the characters in one of the groups I'm playing in is planning on playing a spymaster rouge who loves to masquerade as the inquisitor... my character. They were childhood friends and its been going on their whole lives and despite worshiping Iori, my inquisitor is none the wiser on the rouge's shenanigans.

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Chris Mortika wrote:

And one remarkable thing about paladins is that they cannot lie or break their word, and then carry on as if nothing has happened. So paladins make great diplomats under the right circumstances, because they are often persuasive, and because they are trust-worthy.

If my battle oracle is passing herself off as a paladin, she can trade off that reputation, and her lies will be all the more believable when she casts a minor spell afterwards. Surely, no paladin could maintain her powers after speaking false.

And when her honeyed words are revealed as so much dross, she sullies the reputation of all real paladins. I would imagine that thee are some holy warriors out there who would wish to have a word with such a character.

In our area, there's a "paladin" who is basically exactly this. She's actually a Bard/Cavalier/BattleHerald of Cayden Cailean, and she claims to be a paladin of Iomedae purely for the advantage that she "can't be lying". She also casts innocence a lot.

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I have found this to be an interesting thread, because I've got a character that fits this "paladin" description very well. In fact, there is a little more story than that.

My -2 character is Magnus Landros, a Paladin of Aro... I mean Abadar, who is from a very old line of Taldan nobles. His family has never really accepted that Aroden has really died. He is very "straight and narrow", and not the wisest paladin around (though he's not stupid). He has been known to use "For the Last of the Alzanti!" as his battle cry, as often as he yells "For Taldor", and almost always hits when he misspeaks, so one wonders if Aroden is really watching Magnus!

So, I was trying to figure out why he is the way he is.

Enter his (older) twin sister, Lady Natalia Landros, Paladin of Aroden. To create her, I took his exact stats (they are twins, after all), and build a character to explain Magnus. She is actually a Battle Oracle, but it is her claim that her powers derive from her worship of Aroden. She's got the History of Heresy trait, and the tongues curse (I really wanted her "under stress" language to be Azlanti, but since that isn't one of the permissible ones, I gave her Celestial, which explains why Magnus speaks Celestial).

She came to her powers relatively early in life, but her brother was not blessed in the same way (but through following the new, replacement patron of Abadar - couldn't be Iomedae, since no true Taldan would follow that Chelish tart - he gained his powers.) She affirmed the family's belief that Aroden lives, but is more select in who he grants power to. Magnus is driven to be a more "Paladin-y" Paladin because of this, since he feels that he is not worthy of Aroden's blessings.

Talia is not so humble. She has bought into the whole Taldan noble thing. She's still Lawful Good, and still acts like a paladin, but she really only just tolerates the "unwashed masses". In fact, the only reason she became a Pathfinder (following her brother into the ranks) was as a way to gain recognition for the Landos family, and restore them to greatness.

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Chris Mortika wrote:


As long as everybody who sees the weapon recognizes it as a scimitar, as opposed to an Elven Curveblade, nobody has any problem with that. Call it a hammer, if you want.

Right, well it's obviously not an Elven Curveblade because it's one handed. I realize that it must conform to the mechanical statistics of the thing it technically is (handedness, damage type etc). Other than that though, it looks an awful lot like one.

Quote:
But since the early days, the campaign leadership has not allowed players to claim that one thing in the game (animal companion, equipment, spell) is apparently something else in the game world that has seperate statistics. Your magic missile doesn't look like icicles. (Or at least, Spellcraft still identifies it as magic missile, with no penalty.) Your dwarf can't say that his mount "is a bear" that uses the horse statistics. Your sword does not look like a light-sabre. All of that is "re-skinning" with a mechanical effect.

Right, but none of my examples are that, exactly. Someone else commented that it's the difference between "reskinning" and "fluff," and maybe that's so, but in some ways I'm not sure I see the distinction.

Quote:
A Paladin really is a thing in Golarion...more sophisticated people would have a pretty good idea what a paladin is. Certainly, anybody who has fought besides one knows that a paladin can heal people, that people near her have an easier time finding their courage, and that she is the wrath of...

All of the things you name are also (or can be, with the right selection of archetypes/feats/abilities) true about Inquisitors, Clerics, Oracles and Warpriests. Frankly, I don't even like the idea that someone, in character, is going to be like "Oh, he just used his Smite ability on that dragon." Because there is no Smite ability in-game. There's just this guy who really steps up and does heroic things when it's clutch time, because that's who he is.

This kind of stuff can get aggravating. I was playing in my friend's Reign of Winter campaign and we had one player that was a Summoner (Player A) and another that was a Conjurer (Player B). There was some RP stuff going on regarding the Summoner's eidolon, and Player C kept jumping in to explain to the rest of the PCs (in character) that, you see, one of them was a Conjurer and the other a Summoner and therefore their abilities were different in such and such ways. It's absolutely devastating to any sense of aesthetic immersion in the game world when players do this, and the GM had to keep stepping in and going "Well, you know, as far as anyone's concerned in-world they're both just mage types who have trained in slightly different ways, but beyond that your character really doesn't have that kind of specific statistical game knowledge of what they each do, no matter how high your Knowledge Arcana is. Yes, you can learn what an eidolan is, but that doesn't make Player A a 'Summoner.' It makes him a mage type that chose to summon an eidolan, whereas Player B is another mage type who apparently chose not to, or never learned how."

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Jeff Mahood wrote:

I'm on a phone, so this will be a brief response, but:

1) there is an important distinction between Pathfinder culture and PFS culture.
2) most of your examples are about fluff, not reskinning. See Will and John Compton's posts above for examples.

I have to run, so I will also give a brief response to this, but just a couple of thoughts:

1. PFS does not exist in a vacuum separate from the larger Pathfinder culture. PFS stuff winds up affecting many people that don't play it, in various ways.

2. If my Ninja-that-isn't is an example of fluff, then why is a Paladin-that-isn't an example of reskinning?

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