Ultimate Campaign: WAR! What is it Good For?

The drow army represents a lone drow warrior, I take it? 3 HP sounds really low if it's an entire unit.

Also, <3 for giving the unit stats for the tarrasque.

I get a "does not exist/not allowed" error when I try to zoom in on the picture of Imrijka and Kyra there.

Sorry

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I wonder how army stats will handle going against character stats. Like, if one PC was going against an army, how would Army HP and such handle that?

The drow army represents a lone drow warrior, I take it? 3 HP sounds really low if it's an entire unit.

Nope, that's a moderate army of them. That's Army HPs, they're worth a lot more than single-character HPs even individually. Note how few the Tarrasque has - only 93.

Note that the singular Tarrasque is stated as a Fine-sized army, while the mob of Drow is a Medium-size one. A lone Drow warrior would be less than Diminutive on this scale.

Ooh, I notice the palace grants a settlement bonus. Does that mean the kingdom building rules are incorportating the settlement rules from the GMG? Or are the settlement rules getting a tweak aswell?

The drow army represents a lone drow warrior, I take it? 3 HP sounds really low if it's an entire unit.

Also, <3 for giving the unit stats for the tarrasque.

Unless it's changed from the Kingmaker rules massively, a medium army is 100 creatures.

I get a "does not exist/not allowed" error when I try to zoom in on the picture of Imrijka and Kyra there.

Quote:

Sorry

The requested URL was not found on this server, or you do not have permission to access this area.

Remove the duplicate "-Troops" from the URL and you should be set to go. I'm sure someone from Paizo will fix it shortly. :)

Hmm... The HP values are different then what War of the River Kings suggested. Zhangar, the Damage and HP rules of Mass Combat are quite a bit different then the normal rules. As such, 3 HP is probably correct for a medium Army which is 100 soldiers, assuming they changed how the HP worked from War of the River Kings (The Tarrasque army has too few hp, and I think the drow army does too according to the original rules).

EDIT: Scrath that, I'm off a bit. Tarrasque has the correct HP. But I think the Drow army still has a bit to few... Should have 5hp I think. (5.5 x 1 = 5hp, though I would think its ACR would be 2 but whatev.)

The link to the full illustration is fixed.

Thank you!

So I take it that 'Lots' is the same idea as 'Stronghold Spaces' from 3.0?

How big is a Lot? I just picture a palace being much bigger than 4x the size of a bank.

Hmm, I'm guessing that a palace is basically a bigger, fancier castle (as done in the kingdom building rules from Kingmaker)?

These are the parts I'm most eager to see, the kingdom and settlement building rules and how to handle mass combat. And the release date - arrgh, so near and yet so far.

In a single city district, there are 36 lots. These lots are arranged in 2x2 blocks, meaning there are 9 of these 2x2 blocks. These 9 blocks are then arranged in its own 3x3 square. It isn't a 6x6 square however for building things. The 4 lots taken up by the Palace must be contained on its own 2x2 block and can't be split across two of these blocks. However if you want your PCs to get extravagant and they have the resources, they could build 2 palaces in blocks right next to each other and that could count as a single palace twice the size of a normal one.

A city can be composed of a single city district or as many city districts as the PCs can afford. Each lot is approximately 750ft x 750ft. The "approximately" part is important. If you intend to run combats, it's best to do some real mapping out of the combat area rather then relying on the narrative style of the Kingdom rules, though you can use them for inspiration.

I wonder how army stats will handle going against character stats. Like, if one PC was going against an army, how would Army HP and such handle that?

The character would be treated as a Fine army containing one creature (like the Tarrasque in the example) and would get its own statblock in army format.

hopefully there will be rules for making an army from iconic monsters, like liches and medusa

Rank and file morghs!

Ooh, I notice the palace grants a settlement bonus. Does that mean the kingdom building rules are incorportating the settlement rules from the GMG?

If so, that just saved me a lot of house ruling.

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

Ooh, I notice the palace grants a settlement bonus. Does that mean the kingdom building rules are incorportating the settlement rules from the GMG?

If so, that just saved me a lot of house ruling.

Yep, it incorporates those rules. :) Time saved!

-Lisa

WAR! What is it Good For?

...absolutely nothing!

Besides that: Awesome sauce! So looking forward to it.

Ruyan.

Epic Meepo wrote:

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

Ooh, I notice the palace grants a settlement bonus. Does that mean the kingdom building rules are incorportating the settlement rules from the GMG?

If so, that just saved me a lot of house ruling.

Yep, it incorporates those rules. :) Time saved!

-Lisa

Time, house rules, paper, frustration... did we mention that this book looks awesome? Just a shame that shipping to the UK takes so long. For me, anyway, because for Paizo it means I finally caved in and got the rule book line subscription. Was I going to wait until some time in late June for Amazon.co.uk to send it to me? WAS I HECK!

Blog wrote:

WAR! What is it Good For?

...absolutely nothing!

“War, Nobby. Huh! What is it good for?” he said.

“Dunno, Sarge. Freeing slaves, maybe?”

“Abso—well, okay.”

“Defending yourself against a totalitarian aggressor?”

“All right, I’ll grant you that, but—”

“Saving civilization from a horde of—”

“It doesn’t do any good in the long run is what I’m saying, Nobby, if you’d listen for five seconds together,” said Fred Colon sharply.

“Yeah, but in the long run, what does, Sarge?”

The email about the payment authorization for my subscription copy is always such a tease. I'm so ready for this book.

Hmm... The HP values are different then what War of the River Kings suggested. Zhangar, the Damage and HP rules of Mass Combat are quite a bit different then the normal rules. As such, 3 HP is probably correct for a medium Army which is 100 soldiers, assuming they changed how the HP worked from War of the River Kings (The Tarrasque army has too few hp, and I think the drow army does too according to the original rules).

EDIT: Scrath that, I'm off a bit. Tarrasque has the correct HP. But I think the Drow army still has a bit to few... Should have 5hp I think. (5.5 x 1 = 5hp, though I would think its ACR would be 2 but whatev.)

I played through Kingmaker, and remember the army units having 15 to 30+ HP depending on how they were built. Unless they've greatly changed how the damage in army battles works, a 3 HP unit will probably die in a single hit - damage was the amount your attack roll beat the AC by, plus circumstantial modifiers.

Though if that number is right, then I'd forgotten how fragile units normally were.

Odraude wrote:

I wonder how army stats will handle going against character stats. Like, if one PC was going against an army, how would Army HP and such handle that?

The character would be treated as a Fine army containing one creature (like the Tarrasque in the example) and would get its own statblock in army format.

***mind blown***

xevious573 wrote:

Hmm... The HP values are different then what War of the River Kings suggested. Zhangar, the Damage and HP rules of Mass Combat are quite a bit different then the normal rules. As such, 3 HP is probably correct for a medium Army which is 100 soldiers, assuming they changed how the HP worked from War of the River Kings (The Tarrasque army has too few hp, and I think the drow army does too according to the original rules).

EDIT: Scrath that, I'm off a bit. Tarrasque has the correct HP. But I think the Drow army still has a bit to few... Should have 5hp I think. (5.5 x 1 = 5hp, though I would think its ACR would be 2 but whatev.)

I played through Kingmaker, and remember the army units having 15 to 30+ HP depending on how they were built. Unless they've greatly changed how the damage in army battles works, a 3 HP unit will probably die in a single hit - damage was the amount your attack roll beat the AC by, plus circumstantial modifiers.

Though if that number is right, then I'd forgotten how fragile units normally were.

The drow army should have 5 HP by the normal rules (Average of HD (So 5.5 for d10) multiplied by the CR (1)).

This is the Paltry Militia from Kingmaker.

Paltry Militia CR 1
Medium army of humans (warrior 3)
Combat
hp 5; DV 11; OM +1
Logistics
Speed 2; Consumption 1
Prerequisite Kingdom size 1 or higher

The reason why you likely never used this army is because of the fact that you generally had much more powerful options and had the BP to support them. But not all wars have to take place when the PCs are 13th level.

Just trying to understand - wouldn't warrior 3 have an average of 16.5?

The final preview was both bittersweet and incredible! I am delighted to see the new options to the kingdom building and mass-combat rules, they were all so wonderful, and the addition of law and fame stats to kingdoms sound really exciting! Next week cannot come soon enough! Absolutely loved these previews these last four weeks! :D Thank you for taking the time to give those of us who were going to buy this on day one and those of us who were undecided four excellent glimpses into Ultimate Campaign, it really seemed to generate more anticipation and excitement for what is looking to be an outstanding book!

I asked during the first weekly preview if these could become a regular thing, and while I understand that your time is devoted to developing new goodies and toys for us, any previews for upcoming products would be sure to bring a smile to my face... ;)

Thanks again, for brightening my Thursdays!! :D CANNOT WAIT TO READ THIS!!

The Pale :)

Just trying to understand - wouldn't warrior 3 have an average of 16.5?

Not for armies, no. Warrior 3 helps determine the ACR (Army Challenge Rating). A warrior 3 human or drow has a CR 1 and this army has 100 soldiers, making it a Medium size army which means the creatures ACR = the Warrior 3's CR (1). If there were actually 2,000 Human Warrior 3's (each individual one being CR 1), then we'd have a Colossal size army which would increase the ACR by 8, making the total ACR be 9 and the army's hp 49 (5.5 x 9 = 49.5). That ACR determines a lot of the numbers surrounding armies - hp, OM, and DV. Now armies can only take damage from other armies (And thus the normal damage system of Pathfinder isn't relevant) so if your character decides to take on an army all by themselves, you would take your characters normal gameplay CR (normally their level unless other things like templates are involved) and subtract 8 (This is a Fine sized army and thus its ACR is 8 less then the base creature's CR) from it to determine your characters ACR. We would then determine your hp by taking the lowest of your HD types (if you're multiclass fighter/rogue then we'd use a d8) and taking the average of that HD type and multiplying it by your ACR. Note that if we don't atleast get a ACR 1 after applying a penalty or bonus for army size category, then the creatures composing the "army" aren't actually strong enough to pose a threat to a real army and thus can't have an army statblock.

So take a 20th level wizard. This wizard's ACR would be 12 (20 - 8 since he's a Fine army), his HD is d6, he has 3.5hp per CR, or 42hp. Now this wizard can take on another army as we now have the beginnings of an Army statblock. This wizard would probably have several other special qualities based on his actual character sheet but that would require the GM (and player if it's a PC) to determine those special qualities.

There's more to it of course, but that's the general gist of the old system. It looks like they have a new special abilities that an Army can have as well as new tactics. It will be pretty cool.

AinvarG wrote:

Just trying to understand - wouldn't warrior 3 have an average of 16.5?

Not for armies, no. Warrior 3 helps determine the ACR (Army Challenge Rating). A warrior 3 human or drow has a CR 1 and this army has 100 soldiers, making it a Medium size army which means the creatures ACR = the Warrior 3's CR (1). If there were actually 2,000 Human Warrior 3's (each individual one being CR 1), then we'd have a Colossal size army which would increase the ACR by 8, making the total ACR be 9 and the army's hp 49 (5.5 x 9 = 49.5). That ACR determines a lot of the numbers surrounding armies - hp, OM, and DV. Now armies can only take damage from other armies (And thus the normal damage system of Pathfinder isn't relevant) so if your character decides to take on an army all by themselves, you would take your characters normal gameplay CR (normally their level unless other things like templates are involved) and subtract 8 (This is a Fine sized army and thus its ACR is 8 less then the base creature's CR) from it to determine your characters ACR. We would then determine your hp by taking the lowest of your HD types (if you're multiclass fighter/rogue then we'd use a d8) and taking the average of that HD type and multiplying it by your ACR. Note that if we don't atleast get a ACR 1 after applying a penalty or bonus for army size category, then the creatures composing the "army" aren't actually strong enough to pose a threat to a real army and thus can't have an army statblock.

So take a 20th level wizard. This wizard's ACR would be 12 (20 - 8 since he's a Fine army), his HD is d6, he has 3.5hp per CR, or 42hp. Now this wizard can take on another army as we now have the beginnings of an Army statblock. This wizard would probably have several other special qualities based on his actual character sheet but that would require the GM (and player if it's a PC) to determine those special qualities.

There's more to it of course, but that's the general gist of the old system. It looks like they have a...

Thank you for explaining that. I know that took a while, and for someone who didn't get to read the army rules from before couldn't be more excited now that I partially understand the rules.

Again...thanks.

...also...I CANNOT WAIT FOR THIS FRIGGEN BOOK ALREADY!!!!!

I'm still wondering how my juju oracle's zombie griffon division and the green dragon zombie he rides as his personal mount would factor into this army system.

Bravo, xevious573. That was very clearly written and obviously took some thought. Thanks for sharing!

Odraude wrote:

I wonder how army stats will handle going against character stats. Like, if one PC was going against an army, how would Army HP and such handle that?

The character would be treated as a Fine army containing one creature (like the Tarrasque in the example) and would get its own statblock in army format.

If my character defeats an entire army, how am I supposed to carry all that loot?

Love this art, and not just because it's my two favorite iconics. Getting a "Well damn, not all of these folks are going home after this" vibe from their faces.

Really do enjoy seeing the iconics outside their usual expected roles. And stuff like this does make one wonder about the potential stories behind them.

Kyra: These people stand ready now, but I hope their resolve holds once the fighting starts.

Imrijka: Hm... Yes, they are for to needing the boosting of morale.

Kyra: Though they are Erastilian, I think I recall some words my teacher-

Imrijka: YOU! WHERE ARE YOU FROM?

Kyra: Sarenrae's sake.

Famer: Uh...here....Palin's Cove ma'am.

Imrijka: PALIN'S COVE? THERE ARE FOR TO BEING ONLY TWO THINGS COMING FROM THE PALIN'S COVE! PEASANTS AND PHEASANTS! WHICH ONE ARE YOU BEING?

Farmer: Er...peasant?

Kyra: Is this really help-

Imrijka: NOW SHOW ME THE WAR FACE!

Farmer: D:

Imrijka: I think he is having good morale now. He should probably be taking point.

Kyra: ...

Imrijka: Also, from look in his eye and body language, he is likely being cheating on his wife.

Kyra: Has anyone ever told you how disturbing it is when you do that?

Mark Moreland wrote:

Odraude wrote:

I wonder how army stats will handle going against character stats. Like, if one PC was going against an army, how would Army HP and such handle that?

The character would be treated as a Fine army containing one creature (like the Tarrasque in the example) and would get its own statblock in army format.

If my character defeats an entire army, how am I supposed to carry all that loot?

Your Leadership entourage is there to applaud your masterful technique, and then claim the defeated army's pack mule train for you.

I hope, there will be new building tiles for the new buildings, yes?

I am wondering. Would the Build Point rules become part of the SRD, so I could include them in documents for a homebrew setting that I make publically available?

I am wondering. Would the Build Point rules become part of the SRD, so I could include them in documents for a homebrew setting that I make publically available?

The BP rules are already Open Game Content. In fact, at least one 3PP has already published a product which includes them.

I am wondering. Would the Build Point rules become part of the SRD, so I could include them in documents for a homebrew setting that I make publically available?

Ultimate Campaign is already listed in the Products Which May Be Referenced for the Pathfinder Compatibility License, and the kingdom building rules have always been Open Game Content since we first released them in the Kingmaker Adventure Path (which allowed for third-party products like Book of the River Nations by Jon Brazer Enterprises). So yes, you could. :)

AinvarG wrote:

Just trying to understand - wouldn't warrior 3 have an average of 16.5?

Not for armies, no. Warrior 3 helps determine the ACR (Army Challenge Rating). A warrior 3 human or drow has a CR 1 and this army has 100 soldiers, making it a Medium size army which means the creatures ACR = the Warrior 3's CR (1). If there were actually 2,000 Human Warrior 3's (each individual one being CR 1), then we'd have a Colossal size army which would increase the ACR by 8, making the total ACR be 9 and the army's hp 49 (5.5 x 9 = 49.5). That ACR determines a lot of the numbers surrounding armies - hp, OM, and DV. Now armies can only take damage from other armies (And thus the normal damage system of Pathfinder isn't relevant) so if your character decides to take on an army all by themselves, you would take your characters normal gameplay CR (normally their level unless other things like templates are involved) and subtract 8 (This is a Fine sized army and thus its ACR is 8 less then the base creature's CR) from it to determine your characters ACR. We would then determine your hp by taking the lowest of your HD types (if you're multiclass fighter/rogue then we'd use a d8) and taking the average of that HD type and multiplying it by your ACR. Note that if we don't atleast get a ACR 1 after applying a penalty or bonus for army size category, then the creatures composing the "army" aren't actually strong enough to pose a threat to a real army and thus can't have an army statblock.

So take a 20th level wizard. This wizard's ACR would be 12 (20 - 8 since he's a Fine army), his HD is d6, he has 3.5hp per CR, or 42hp. Now this wizard can take on another army as we now have the beginnings of an Army statblock. This wizard would probably have several other special qualities based on his actual character sheet but that would require the GM (and player if it's a PC) to determine those special qualities.

There's more to it of course, but that's the general gist of the old system. It looks like they have a...

Ehm, so a 8th level sorcer with 6-7 fireball and god know what else is "of no threat" to 100 rank-and-file paesant? I think i'm not ever going to use this system...

That's great. Is there a place where I can look the rules up online? The PRD only seems to have the material from the main books and I don't see it on d20pfsrd.com either.

That's great. Is there a place where I can look the rules up online? The PRD only seems to have the material from the main books and I don't see it on d20pfsrd.com either.

We haven't released Ultimate Campaign yet, but there is usually a delay between the release of the PDF and when it gets to the Pathfinder Reference Document (should we decide to do it) and d20pfsrd.com or similar sites. If a third-party site has the kingdom building rules from Kingmaker on a website, I'm not familiar with it.

Imrijka: Also, from look in his eye and body language, he is likely being cheating on his wife.

Kyra: Has anyone ever told you how disturbing it is when you do that?

I now have this image of Imrijka as Loki, the exiled angel played by Matt Damon in Dogma : "I can spot a commandment breaker from like a mile away."

Ehm, so a 8th level sorcer with 6-7 fireball and god know what else is "of no threat" to 100 rank-and-file paesant? I think i'm not ever going to use this system...

After one fireball, the commander of that army is going to order his troops to spread out and surround your sorcerer, to come in waves from all sides to minimize casualties. So presumably you are going to fly, but then what bowman there are in their ranks are going to take shots at you. That's probably atleast 15 shots each round from all sides and while you're probably a dodgy sonovagun what with you being 8th level, These guys are still Warrior 3 characters, not your Commoner 1 rabble, they have basic military and tactics training, a Full BAB and the know-how to Aid Another and take cover from your fireballs. You will run out of spells and they will still be there to greet you when you are done going nova.

Finally the system really isn't meant to simulate PC versus Army anyway, it just technically can be done with the system. It always had problem with that even when it was first released and the developers did acknowledge it.

Where can I look up the rules for what is Open Game Content and what I am allowed to do with it even if it is not in the PRD?

Ehm, so a 8th level sorcer with 6-7 fireball and god know what else is "of no threat" to 100 rank-and-file paesant? I think i'm not ever going to use this system...

No reason to be so negative. This is better than any system that's out there...you know...because there are so many war rules systems for d20. [a joke for those who didn't get the sarcasm through text] So yes, at that exact point of 8th level, there seems to be some issues...if you don't like it, make 8th level the equivalent of a ACR 1/2 Army (or whatever its called), and a 7th lv a Army ACR 1/3, and so on.

Mikaze wrote:

Imrijka: Also, from look in his eye and body language, he is likely being cheating on his wife.

Kyra: Has anyone ever told you how disturbing it is when you do that?

I now have this image of Imrijka as Loki, the exiled angel played by Matt Damon in Dogma : "I can spot a commandment breaker from like a mile away."

I was getting more of a Holmesian vibe from it - wonder if she's been taking lessons from the Great Detective.

Where can I look up the rules for what is Open Game Content and what I am allowed to do with it even if it is not in the PRD?

The Open Game License is included with each product, and you would be required to include a copy with your product as well.

Each product states what is Open Content, and what is not, sometimes on the credits page. The Publisher is able to declare any of the new content as "Product Identity" (off limits for re-use), but re-used open content cannot be now declared Product Identity.

The presence of the content on the PRD is a convenience for publishers seeking to re-use content from the Pathfinder RPG. Even though there is Open Content in the Golarion-specific products, most of those do not get added to the PRD.

In general, you should talk to a lawyer before going into any kind of business arrangement using the OGL.. it is a legal document, and there are requirements around its use.

There have been previous threads here with discussions of the issues.

On topic: I am really looking forward to seeing all of the changes to the original Kingdom and Exploration rules, and to seeing what the downtime rules look like. The previews all look very good.

I hope, there will be new building tiles for the new buildings, yes?

Honestly, I'm hoping that part of the rewrite was a distancing from "the grid," in part because no Pathfinder map ever made adheres to the grid. As a general rule, grid-based city blocks generally happened when a government planned and built out a city (aka most American cities), but for the most part cities grow organically up and around each other. There's little to no grid to old European cities like London or Rome.

I have always find that the game (and before, 3.0 and 3.5) lacked some skill like Knowledge (Tactic) or Knowledge (Warfare). Would be here something like that? Profession (Soldier) is there for that? That seems more for "ground level" that grand scale war, to me at least.

Sven Gerkens wrote:

I hope, there will be new building tiles for the new buildings, yes?

Honestly, I'm hoping that part of the rewrite was a distancing from "the grid," in part because no Pathfinder map ever made adheres to the grid. As a general rule, grid-based city blocks generally happened when a government planned and built out a city (aka most American cities), but for the most part cities grow organically up and around each other. There's little to no grid to old European cities like London or Rome.

The grid is a pure abstraction. It is explicitly NOT the actual layout of the city.

The grid is a pure abstraction. It is explicitly NOT the actual layout of the city.

Then what's the point of having a grid in the first place? Why not just say, "36 lots to a district?" If the grid isn't going to correlate to the city, it serves no purpose other than to have an arbitrary restriction on where you can place certain buildings. (For example, must be adjacent to 1 house.)