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Mythic Adventures

Tuesday, August 28, 2012

Just over a week ago, at Gen Con, we announced the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game hardcover book due to come out next August: Mythic Adventures. Since then, there has been a fury of speculation and excitement about this book, so I thought I would give a recap of what we’ve said so far about this new addition to the game.

What is mythic?

The mythic rules offer a new way to play Pathfinder. It uses all the rules that you are familiar with, but it adds a new layer to the game. Mythic adventurers are elevated above their non-mythic counterparts, gaining powers and abilities beyond their reach that allow them to take on tougher foes and more daunting challenges. A mythic character takes on the agents of deities, rushes headlong into the abyss, and strives to build a legend, all while facing off against a wide variety of foes, from common monsters to other mythic characters. If Elric, Fafhrd, Gray Mouser, Hercules, or King Arthur were created in Pathfinder, they would be mythic characters.

Is this a replacement for epic rules?

Mythic is not epic. You can use the mythic rules with 1st-level characters just as easily as you can with 20th-level characters. You can even use the mythic rules to continue to grow in power once your PCs reach 20th level, taking on some of the toughest adversaries in the game, from ancient dragons to demon lords. Meanwhile a low-level mythic character might take on monsters that you are already familiar with, at a level where non-mythic characters would face certain doom.

So, how does mythic work?

Each mythic character must select a mythic path, which defines some of the powers and abilities he gains, in addition to a few features gained by all mythic characters. As a character advances, his mythic tier might increase. Starting at 1st tier, a mythic character is quite a bit more resilient and can draw upon his mythic power to accomplish incredible deeds. Once he reaches 10th tier (the upper limit of mythic power), he is an unstoppable force, akin to a demigod in some respects.

Mythic tiers are not gained by accumulating experience points. Instead, a mythic character has to accomplish a specific number of deeds to achieve the next tier of mythic power. Using this system, your mythic tier is not tied to your character level. You still gain XP as normal, still gain levels as normal, but occasionally you might increase your mythic tier as well, adding a few new mythic abilities and powers to your character.

It is important to note that while mythic rules add to the game, they do not necessarily make the game more complex.

What are the mythic paths?

The rules currently include six paths for a mythic character to choose from. Each path offers a unique set of abilities to choose from, as well as some abilities that appear in more than one path. The paths you can choose from are as follows:

Archmage: Master of arcane magic, able to call upon his mythic power to cast extra spells, penetrate defenses, and even cast greater versions of existing spells.

Champion: Unequalled in his skill with weapons and styles of fighting. The champion can call upon his mythic power to make devastating attacks, quickly move across any battlefield, and strike many foes with a single swing.

Hierophant: In tune with the gods, be they deities or the spirits of the natural world, the hierophant is the master of divine magic. The hierophant can heal even the most deadly wounds, bring back allies from the dead, and wield the power of the gods.

Marshal: A leader of unparalleled vision, the marshal elevates those around him, granting powerful abilities and bonuses to his allies, even if they are not mythic themselves. Entire armies flock to his banner, and his close friends find his council invaluable.

Trickster: The master of many deceptions, the trickster can influence the world around him in both subtle ways (with a smile) and more direct ways (with a dagger in the back).

Warden: Few can withstand the sort of punishment that the warden takes regularly. No foe frightens this warrior, because he knows that no blow could possibly lay him low. The warden uses his resiliency to protect his allies, the people around him, and the lands he calls home.

What else will be in Mythic Adventures?

In short, everything you need to add mythic rules to your game. The book will contain the mythic paths, deeds, feats, spells, magic items, artifacts, monsters, and a short sample adventure to get you started. In addition, Mythic Adventures will include plenty of tips and advice for playing a mythic character and running a mythic campaign. It will also feature ways that you can add mythic rules to your existing campaign, even if it’s only for an adventure or two.

Mythic monsters?

Oh yes. There will be mythic monsters. This book will include a selection of monsters, from upgrades of existing beasts, such as the mythic minotaur and medusa, to entirely new creations. In addition, there will be a number of simple templates and rules to allow a GM to make any monster mythic. There are also going to be a number of other toys to go in the GMs toolbox to help make a game that can challenge such powerful characters.

Can I have it NOW?

Not quite yet. Mythic Adventures will be released at Gen Con 2013, but you’ll get a chance to play with the rules well before that. We will be releasing a select portion of the rules set, to give you a chance to play with the rules, tell us what works and what needs work. This playtest will hopefully get underway by the end of September, but we will make sure to give you a firm date as soon as we have one. Until then, I want to leave you with this one little mythic rule for you to chew on.

Amazing Initiative (Ex): At 2nd tier, a mythic character gains a +20 mythic bonus on his initiative checks. In addition, he can spend one use of his mythic power each round to take an additional turn, treating his initiative for this second turn as his initiative roll without the +20 mythic bonus. Using this ability is a free action that must be decided at the end of his first action during the round.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

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Pathfinder Card Game, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Do Mythic tiers contribute to character levels?

For example, if you have an ability/feat that increases with your character level, do your Mythic tiers count as well, or are they completely separate?

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

They are separate.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
There's a supplementary character sheet in Mythic Adventures that provides a place to explain how you became a mythic character, track improvements to your character (such as the ability score bonuses for being mythic) as you gain mythic tiers, your mythic feats, the mythic spells you know, describing the mythic trials you've completed, and so on.

Trials, eh?

TRIAL BY STONE.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lilith wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
There's a supplementary character sheet in Mythic Adventures that provides a place to explain how you became a mythic character, track improvements to your character (such as the ability score bonuses for being mythic) as you gain mythic tiers, your mythic feats, the mythic spells you know, describing the mythic trials you've completed, and so on.

Trials, eh?

TRIAL BY STONE.

Looks like someone is a fan of The Dark Crystal


Pathfinder Card Game, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
They are separate.

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of.

That is one of the things I didn't like what I read from the the Mythic playtest rules, it doesn't increase your existing abilities. No caster level increase, no increase in established feats, abilities, etc.

Yes, you get new ones, but I would like it if you were actually considered '30' levels of your character, not 20 character levels and 10 Mythic tiers. I understand not increasing skill points, and even saving throws, but I feel the rest should have been increased.

But I am willing to keep an open mind and looking forward to reading the full rules and changes that were made from the playtest rules.


I'm guessing it doesn't increase existing abilities because Tiers are no longer considered an additional full "level" each. They're now only worth a "half-level" apiece. So max APL is 25, not 30. With that now being the case, I think it's fine that they don't scale existing abilities.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

The Block Knight wrote:
Tiers are no longer considered an additional full "level" each. They're now only worth a "half-level" apiece.

I hadn't heard that. Can you link to where you read it?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's a conclusion reached from a post by James Jacobs in his "ask anything" thread. Though I believe that particular point was that a mythic tier is worth half a CR, not that they're worth half a level - the discussion came about when James off-handedly said that a 20th level character with 10 tiers is CR 25, in response to a question, and clarified that they had reassessed how much of a challenge mythic tiers represented. There is certainly a reasonable corollary to tiers only being counted as half a level for APL calculations, but that has not been explicitly stated as far as I know.

This is somewhat borne out by the fact that Jason (I believe it was in his own "ask anything" thread, but might have been in the Mythic Playtest forums) said that James had revealed something which had not been specifically revealed by the design team (the phrase "talking out of turn" springs to mind, but that may well just be me paraphrasing), which suggests that there may be more to the matter than James described.


Can you multiclass Mythic paths?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Subject to the usual caveats about "might have changed between the playtest and the version sent to the printer" there is the ability to have Dual Paths, so that a character can pick path abilities from two of the mythic paths as they go up tiers. As far as we know that is the only ability that allows anything approximating multiclassing.


Pathfinder Card Game, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chemlak wrote:

It's a conclusion reached from a post by James Jacobs in his "ask anything" thread. Though I believe that particular point was that a mythic tier is worth half a CR, not that they're worth half a level - the discussion came about when James off-handedly said that a 20th level character with 10 tiers is CR 25, in response to a question, and clarified that they had reassessed how much of a challenge mythic tiers represented. There is certainly a reasonable corollary to tiers only being counted as half a level for APL calculations, but that has not been explicitly stated as far as I know.

This is somewhat borne out by the fact that Jason (I believe it was in his own "ask anything" thread, but might have been in the Mythic Playtest forums) said that James had revealed something which had not been specifically revealed by the design team (the phrase "talking out of turn" springs to mind, but that may well just be me paraphrasing), which suggests that there may be more to the matter than James described.

In a sense that is worse then. When I first looked at the Mythic playtest one of the things I didn’t like about it is you didn’t feel ‘Mythic’. Sure, there were some really nice abilities, but there wasn’t any (or very little of) those uber abilities that made you feel on your way to standing among the best on different planes.

But with what JJ said on equivalent CR, that makes sense then on how I interpreted the strength of your mythic character. What doesn’t make sense though is I thought these characters would be able to challenge CRs in the 30s? Like the Four Horsemen or Arch Devils, for example. But having a power level somewhat in the area of CR 25, not sure how you would be able to do that.

But again, not making any final judgments until I can see the completed product.

Andoran

Hobbun wrote:
In a sense that is worse then. When I first looked at the Mythic playtest one of the things I didn’t like about it is you didn’t feel ‘Mythic’. Sure, there were some really nice abilities, but there wasn’t any (or very little of) those uber abilities that made you feel on your way to standing among the best on different planes.

I'd suggest you go back to the mythic play test and draw up a character with 20 character levels and 10 mythic tiers. Now have your friends draw up characters of the same class with 0 mythic tiers. Play those characters side by side for a while and tell me you're not "among the best on different planes."


Pathfinder Card Game, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So what’s your point? That a character with 10 Mythic Tiers is more powerful than someone with 0? I would certainly hope so.

And not really here to argue with you about ‘feeling among the best on different planes’ as it’s subjective. It’s just a feeling that I had, but you are welcome to disagree.

But, barring any misunderstandings in what James was saying, being around the power level of a CR 25 with 20 character levels and 10 Mythic levels is not what I had in mind.


Quandary wrote:
Can you multiclass Mythic paths?

Kinda of, but there really no need to do it in the mythic play test.

there the only benfit of doing it was to select ablitys from another path. it not like a level. It was just a base what teir you where gave the same bonus and upgrades to all paths. But each path had different ablities or powers that could be used. Some of them even had the ablity to pick a power from another path without having. 80% of the Paths in the play test worked with all classes, there where only 2 that really only work with certin things and that was the Arcane path and Divine one. I liked it, there was not need for extra level that people are asking for. It still need some things worked out at the end of play test but I am sure they are going to be addressed. People complaing about the numbers did not do enough play testing. there was ablity at teir 5 where saves be came a none issuse. you where either immune to something to or you took a lesser effect. It was a bit much, SO I am sure it was be reworked.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Hobbun wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
They are separate.

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of.

That is one of the things I didn't like what I read from the the Mythic playtest rules, it doesn't increase your existing abilities. No caster level increase, no increase in established feats, abilities, etc.

Yes, you get new ones, but I would like it if you were actually considered '30' levels of your character, not 20 character levels and 10 Mythic tiers. I understand not increasing skill points, and even saving throws, but I feel the rest should have been increased.

But I am willing to keep an open mind and looking forward to reading the full rules and changes that were made from the playtest rules.

No your skill did not increase but some of the ability allowed you take 20 more quickly or even in stressful situations. It also increased your skill by increase your ability’s scores every other tier. You got extra hp based on path. You also could spend a mythic point to increase those skill rolls or any roll by from a d6 up to d12 even after you know you failed. My players used it often to pass skill checks they had no points in. Same for saving throws, mythic save at tier 5 basically made you immune to effect that where pass or fail. So there was no need to increase the numbers. You don't need a caster level increase when a mythic meteor swarm can one hit a most creatures. there where increase to established feats, Mythic toughness added another hp per level, and when you hit 0 hp, you gain dr 10/epic that added with any other epic dr your had. Mythic rapid shot, gave you option to added 2 extra attack to rapid shot or ignoring the -2 penalty.

The problem with increase the numbers in the game like you want breaks the game after level 20. I created a monster that is an outsider shape shifter that has 33 hit dice, and guess what it will never ever fail a save it will never ever not miss. The game math starts so break down at level 15. Because guess what it is based on 20 side dice. The dice roll it self-become irrelevant. It becomes auto fail auto passed depending on bonus, unless you roll a 1 or 20. That is why epic rules where abandoned by Wizard and not upgrade from 3.0 to 3.5 the whole system would have be reworked to support levels beyond 20.
Maybe if it was based off d30 or d40

Osirion

KainPen wrote:
Maybe if it was based off d30 or d40

Open ended percentile.

But it would be an entirely different game, not Pathfinder or AD&D.


Artanthos wrote:
KainPen wrote:
Maybe if it was based off d30 or d40

Open ended percentile.

But it would be an entirely different game, not Pathfinder or AD&D.

True That. It would be TSR's Marvel Superheros lol the frist RPG I ever played.


There is one specific thing that makes me wonder and think a lot. Like many people here, I can't wait for the full book of Mythic Adventures, and I even believe that some things in the Playtest might get changed, so right now I mostly look to focus on something else untill the book gets released.

Since I am curently playing with a friend who played D&D 3.5, we had a discussion. Since the Epic Level Handbook from 3.5 was a mess, there were many things which in mine and his opinion were just too much. And as everybody here know, that "Beyond 20th level" section in the Core Rulebook, in our opinion, would have been very nicely implemented if it were for the "Epic" levels. Skills, class abilities, everything continues normally and simple, the exception are some tips when it comes to gaining spells levels, spells etc. with that being said, we were thinking: Why wouldn't we add, besides 20 levels, another 10 levels for some kind of "Epic level". The only thing we would have to adjust is the feats. Everything else from the "Beyond 20th level" is already great. I think it would be alright. 20 levels of base class + 10 levels of prestige class or even continuing the base class for 10 levels more. Then after 30 levels, since in our opinion, the term "Mythic" seems much greater than "Epic", that it would awesome to have 20 levels of base class, then continue 10 levels through Epic rules, and finally, since the term "Mythic" starts with the "Ascension", when somebody or someone whos is a "mythic being or creature", or maybe an agent of a God or even Gods themselves, grant you powers in the form of "mythic powers", that would, after 30 levels, take you higher in becoming a legendary hero.

Taking all of this into consideration, mister Hobbun, the party would have a chance to Challenge the Four Horsemen of Apocalypse and other.


Pathfinder Card Game, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Adrian,

Yes, I understand that the original 'Epic' rules are still in the CRB and it may be something that we still use with our characters to fight those 30+ CR creatures.

However, my point was that I felt the Mythic Tiers should have covered this on their own. In that you wouldn't need to supplement the brief Epic rules in the CRB to do so.

However, as I said before, I am by no means making any final judgement on Mythic Adventures. I still plan on purchasing the book and I am sure we will be using it with our campaign. But there are just a few things I wish would have increased as well, and just didn't stop because you are taking Mythic Tiers now.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lilith wrote:
TRIAL BY STONE.

"When you can take the pebble from my hand, then it will be time for you to leave."


Epic Meepo wrote:
The Block Knight wrote:
Tiers are no longer considered an additional full "level" each. They're now only worth a "half-level" apiece.
I hadn't heard that. Can you link to where you read it?

What Chemlak said.

Hobbun wrote:
But with what JJ said on equivalent CR, that makes sense then on how I interpreted the strength of your mythic character. What doesn’t make sense though is I thought these characters would be able to challenge CRs in the 30s? Like the Four Horsemen or Arch Devils, for example. But having a power level somewhat in the area of CR 25, not sure how you would be able to do that.

Well, they scale the demigod enemies accordingly. The new max CR for monsters is now 30. So the most powerful (Mephistopheles, Abraxas, Nocticula, Charon, Cthulhu, etc.) will be CR 30 with all the rest of the Empryeal Lords, Demon Lords, Great Old Ones, and other Demigod nasties hanging out in the CR 26 - 29 range.


If APL20+Mythic10 = APL 25 (more or less, given CR equivalency) then taking on something at or near CR30 could become within the realm of possibility... certainly with preparation and suitable party composition, albeit a tougher than average fight. APL+4 is normally within the realm of do-able. Mythic Characters don't get Mythic by shying away from tougher than average fights.

Shadow Lodge

The Block Knight wrote:
Well, they scale the demigod enemies accordingly. The new max CR for monsters is now 30. So the most powerful (Mephistopheles, Abraxas, Nocticula, Charon, Cthulhu, etc.) will be CR 30 with all the rest of the Empryeal Lords, Demon Lords, Great Old Ones, and other Demigod nasties hanging out in the CR 26 - 29 range.

Slightly off topic, but I don't necessarily think that Cthulhu is the end-all and be-all of the Great Old Ones. Perhaps the most powerful among the handful that Lovecraft himself wrote about, maybe....but then again if you actually analyze his usage of that phrase, the "Great Old Ones" that he refers to are simply Cthulhu's race.


Kthulhu, while I do agree with you on this, this is entirely in the hands of James Jacobs who's said he'll be handling Cthulhu's stat block for Bestiary 4. James plans on Cthulhu being CR 30 and will officially be the monster with the most hit points ever in Pathfinder. Granted, I'm sure Cthulhu won't be the only Great Old One to eventually be statted at CR 30.

(Though I can't remember if he said this in his "Ask James Jacobs" thread or the actual "Bestiary 4" thread)

Qadira

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

There's more to this. While Cthulhu is the most powerful enemy from the Lovecraft Mythos that the PCs will be able to face (until others are written up), those in the Mythos that are stronger then Cthulhu are Gods in the Pathfinder universe, which is to say that they can't even be fought by PCs.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Hobbun wrote:

But with what JJ said on equivalent CR, that makes sense then on how I interpreted the strength of your mythic character. What doesn’t make sense though is I thought these characters would be able to challenge CRs in the 30s? Like the Four Horsemen or Arch Devils, for example. But having a power level somewhat in the area of CR 25, not sure how you would be able to do that.

We'll be printing an entire Adventure Path that shows how a group of PCs who end up at 20th level and tier 10 can take on a CR 30 foe. ALTERNATELY: Check out the last Dungeon adventures AP, Savage Tide, wheren it's all about a group of 20th (maybe 21st) level characters taking on a CR 32 foe.

It'll be similar to how a non-mythic party of 20th level characters can take on the tarrasque. AKA: There are more ways to prepare for a climactic +5 APL encounter than merely gaining levels and tiers.

As for how it all works out—folks will simply need to be patient. And keep in mind that the playtest document for Mythic is NOT indicative of how the final rules work—the playtest did a great job at what it was supposed to do—inform us of how to adjust and change those rules to make a better product. That final (better) product, Mythic Adventures, has differences from the playtest document as a result. We feel that they're all improvements, but we're not ready to reveal what those improvements are yet. That happens more or less at Gen Con when the book and the first products that really support and rely upon that book releases.

Until then, patience is the key.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

The Block Knight wrote:

Kthulhu, while I do agree with you on this, this is entirely in the hands of James Jacobs who's said he'll be handling Cthulhu's stat block for Bestiary 4. James plans on Cthulhu being CR 30 and will officially be the monster with the most hit points ever in Pathfinder. Granted, I'm sure Cthulhu won't be the only Great Old One to eventually be statted at CR 30.

(Though I can't remember if he said this in his "Ask James Jacobs" thread or the actual "Bestiary 4" thread)

While Cthulhu is indeed being statted up for Bestiary 4... there are some non-Bestiary 4 contenders for the "most hit points" award. We'll see how it all shakes out in the end.


James Jacobs wrote:
The Block Knight wrote:

Kthulhu, while I do agree with you on this, this is entirely in the hands of James Jacobs who's said he'll be handling Cthulhu's stat block for Bestiary 4. James plans on Cthulhu being CR 30 and will officially be the monster with the most hit points ever in Pathfinder. Granted, I'm sure Cthulhu won't be the only Great Old One to eventually be statted at CR 30.

(Though I can't remember if he said this in his "Ask James Jacobs" thread or the actual "Bestiary 4" thread)

While Cthulhu is indeed being statted up for Bestiary 4... there are some non-Bestiary 4 contenders for the "most hit points" award. We'll see how it all shakes out in the end.

Bestiary 4! This just keeps better and better! Sir James Jacobs, I was at first skeptical that the party could barely scratch a CR 30 monster, but since you are telling that the Mythic Adventures will be far more better than the playtest (sincerely, most of the things in the playtest were good in my oppinion). I also can't wait to see the Adventure Path were the PCs are taking on the CR 30 foe. I can't wait for something "Mythic" like that to happen. My character, Geleborn, son of Geletorn, is already a 15th level Fighter, and me and the GM can't wait for the Mythic Adventures to see how all this will work once I reach 20th level. And thanks a lot Sir Jacobs, and thanks to Sir Jason Bulmahn and others from Paizo for a hell of a epic job you have done by far. Pathfinder truly is one Mythic of a Roleplaying game!

AdrianGM


Pathfinder Card Game, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So, I'm finally getting around to using the Playtest rules as a way of "boosting" a three-player party to hit inside their weight class. I know I am coming WAY late to this party, but what was the final run-down of things as they have been adjusted over the playtest? I remember that Trials were scrapped, as were Mythic Weaknesses, and now the Tiers = 1/2 CR thing, which is cool.

Were there other aspects to the original playtest doc that were "adjusted" by the Consensus? I don't want to get too far from he mark and have to do a lot of re-jiggering once GenCon rolls around.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Mythic points were adjusted to 3+ tier so that they're no longer tied to an ability score (you may find this is too few points, but it seems to work okay for my group), and there were some hefty changes made to Amazing Initiative, but I can't remember what they were.


People, correct me if I'm wrong but, I haven't seen anything in the Mythic Adventures Playtest that may increase my Fighter's attack roll if he were to take the champion mythic path. I mean, since there are Archdevils and other greater Evil that have a huge AC that you mostly need critical to hit, so I'm asking will there be something in the full book of Mythic Adventures that will boost and give bonus to the attack roll of my future mythic character?


AdrianGM wrote:
People, correct me if I'm wrong but, I haven't seen anything in the Mythic Adventures Playtest that may increase my Fighter's attack roll if he were to take the champion mythic path. I mean, since there are Archdevils and other greater Evil that have a huge AC that you mostly need critical to hit, so I'm asking will there be something in the full book of Mythic Adventures that will boost and give bonus to the attack roll of my future mythic character?

The mythic feats, ability score increases, a lot of the powers let your mythic tier be added as mythic bonus to your attack roll, and you get to added 1d6 to a 1d12 to it if you fail and want to spend mythic points. not to mention mythic version of spell buffing you more the normal. you could easily add +10 to 15 to attack roll by teir 10 in at which point you be fighting arch devils.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
KainPen wrote:
AdrianGM wrote:
People, correct me if I'm wrong but, I haven't seen anything in the Mythic Adventures Playtest that may increase my Fighter's attack roll if he were to take the champion mythic path. I mean, since there are Archdevils and other greater Evil that have a huge AC that you mostly need critical to hit, so I'm asking will there be something in the full book of Mythic Adventures that will boost and give bonus to the attack roll of my future mythic character?
The mythic feats, ability score increases, a lot of the powers let your mythic tier be added as mythic bonus to your attack roll, and you get to added 1d6 to a 1d12 to it if you fail and want to spend mythic points. not to mention mythic version of spell buffing you more the normal. you could easily add +10 to 15 to attack roll by teir 10 in at which point you be fighting arch devils.

Not to mention the feats that remove the negatives for iterative attacks. So you have multiple legitimate attempts to hit.

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