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Mythic Adventures

Tuesday, August 28, 2012

Just over a week ago, at Gen Con, we announced the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game hardcover book due to come out next August: Mythic Adventures. Since then, there has been a fury of speculation and excitement about this book, so I thought I would give a recap of what we’ve said so far about this new addition to the game.

What is mythic?

The mythic rules offer a new way to play Pathfinder. It uses all the rules that you are familiar with, but it adds a new layer to the game. Mythic adventurers are elevated above their non-mythic counterparts, gaining powers and abilities beyond their reach that allow them to take on tougher foes and more daunting challenges. A mythic character takes on the agents of deities, rushes headlong into the abyss, and strives to build a legend, all while facing off against a wide variety of foes, from common monsters to other mythic characters. If Elric, Fafhrd, Gray Mouser, Hercules, or King Arthur were created in Pathfinder, they would be mythic characters.

Is this a replacement for epic rules?

Mythic is not epic. You can use the mythic rules with 1st-level characters just as easily as you can with 20th-level characters. You can even use the mythic rules to continue to grow in power once your PCs reach 20th level, taking on some of the toughest adversaries in the game, from ancient dragons to demon lords. Meanwhile a low-level mythic character might take on monsters that you are already familiar with, at a level where non-mythic characters would face certain doom.

So, how does mythic work?

Each mythic character must select a mythic path, which defines some of the powers and abilities he gains, in addition to a few features gained by all mythic characters. As a character advances, his mythic tier might increase. Starting at 1st tier, a mythic character is quite a bit more resilient and can draw upon his mythic power to accomplish incredible deeds. Once he reaches 10th tier (the upper limit of mythic power), he is an unstoppable force, akin to a demigod in some respects.

Mythic tiers are not gained by accumulating experience points. Instead, a mythic character has to accomplish a specific number of deeds to achieve the next tier of mythic power. Using this system, your mythic tier is not tied to your character level. You still gain XP as normal, still gain levels as normal, but occasionally you might increase your mythic tier as well, adding a few new mythic abilities and powers to your character.

It is important to note that while mythic rules add to the game, they do not necessarily make the game more complex.

What are the mythic paths?

The rules currently include six paths for a mythic character to choose from. Each path offers a unique set of abilities to choose from, as well as some abilities that appear in more than one path. The paths you can choose from are as follows:

Archmage: Master of arcane magic, able to call upon his mythic power to cast extra spells, penetrate defenses, and even cast greater versions of existing spells.

Champion: Unequalled in his skill with weapons and styles of fighting. The champion can call upon his mythic power to make devastating attacks, quickly move across any battlefield, and strike many foes with a single swing.

Hierophant: In tune with the gods, be they deities or the spirits of the natural world, the hierophant is the master of divine magic. The hierophant can heal even the most deadly wounds, bring back allies from the dead, and wield the power of the gods.

Marshal: A leader of unparalleled vision, the marshal elevates those around him, granting powerful abilities and bonuses to his allies, even if they are not mythic themselves. Entire armies flock to his banner, and his close friends find his council invaluable.

Trickster: The master of many deceptions, the trickster can influence the world around him in both subtle ways (with a smile) and more direct ways (with a dagger in the back).

Warden: Few can withstand the sort of punishment that the warden takes regularly. No foe frightens this warrior, because he knows that no blow could possibly lay him low. The warden uses his resiliency to protect his allies, the people around him, and the lands he calls home.

What else will be in Mythic Adventures?

In short, everything you need to add mythic rules to your game. The book will contain the mythic paths, deeds, feats, spells, magic items, artifacts, monsters, and a short sample adventure to get you started. In addition, Mythic Adventures will include plenty of tips and advice for playing a mythic character and running a mythic campaign. It will also feature ways that you can add mythic rules to your existing campaign, even if it’s only for an adventure or two.

Mythic monsters?

Oh yes. There will be mythic monsters. This book will include a selection of monsters, from upgrades of existing beasts, such as the mythic minotaur and medusa, to entirely new creations. In addition, there will be a number of simple templates and rules to allow a GM to make any monster mythic. There are also going to be a number of other toys to go in the GMs toolbox to help make a game that can challenge such powerful characters.

Can I have it NOW?

Not quite yet. Mythic Adventures will be released at Gen Con 2013, but you’ll get a chance to play with the rules well before that. We will be releasing a select portion of the rules set, to give you a chance to play with the rules, tell us what works and what needs work. This playtest will hopefully get underway by the end of September, but we will make sure to give you a firm date as soon as we have one. Until then, I want to leave you with this one little mythic rule for you to chew on.

Amazing Initiative (Ex): At 2nd tier, a mythic character gains a +20 mythic bonus on his initiative checks. In addition, he can spend one use of his mythic power each round to take an additional turn, treating his initiative for this second turn as his initiative roll without the +20 mythic bonus. Using this ability is a free action that must be decided at the end of his first action during the round.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

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Tags: Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
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Andoran

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If I take Amazing Initiative, can I use it to want Mythic Adventures now twice?


Looks awesome so far but I would have rather had a la carte abilities rather than locking a PC down into one of 6 paths. But I always have to complain about something ;)


Color me fascinated, particularly after having run an epic-level 3.5 game. :)

Osirion

I hope the Mythic Adventures book also details how a DM should handle CR when designing encounters that are supposed to challenge Mythic characters. As a player, this looks awesome. As a DM, I want to design encounters at a CR that is appropriate. If I flub one or two encounters, that's no big deal.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I will be curious what path a gunslinger or alchemist would fall under. Gunslinger especially.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Are there Mythic items, as in Mythic magical items?

-Kcinlive


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This is probably the most brilliant expansion idea I've ever seen for the d20 ruleset. You've basically made it another game while keeping the old one - very cleverly, or so it appears. This should postpone Pathfinder second edition by several years at least while people play with their favorite game that is suddenly shiny and new. Braveau!

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'd imagine that gunslingers would typically take champion or trickster, with maybe some taking warden or marshal. I don't think the paths are literally designed as "the Strength path is all about the Strength stat", and the two examples Jason posted from the Champion path (can move before or after full attacks and don't take the iterative attack penalty on full attacks) would both be extremely useful for gunslingers.

Archmage and Heirophant are likely to be a little different as they're probably not going to be as useful to a non-magical character (Archmage especially).


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cheapy wrote:

Will the playtest include rough equivalencies between mythic/non-mythics?

So for example, 2N6M (2nd level normal, 6th tier mythic) would be equal to about a 12th level character?

With the caveat that this is my recollection of what was essentially hearsay:

There was a thread surrounding the GenCon announcement of this product, where it was said that a character could at most have half his character level in mythic tiers (so 2N1M, 4N2M, 6N3M, etc). IIRC, it was also said that each mythic tier counted as one character level in terms of APL (so a 6N3M character would be equivalent to a 9th-level character).


It seems like being able to add "mythic" abilities to creatures of any level or CR obviates the need to have high-level characters or high CR monsters at all. If a “2nd Mythic Tier/3rd level” PC is equivalent to say a 10th level PC what’s the point of having both in the game? Is it so that players and GMs can play a high level epic game without having to bother gaining all the XPs and climbing the level ladder over the course of real time days and months?

To me, the difference between say Grey Mouser and a common pick pocket is their level. The same goes for King Arthur and a foot soldier. It is not something “mythic”, it is training and experience mixed with natural talent and fortitude; the very things that the level system abstracts for the game now. No?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hearsay is funsay!

Thanks for the info.


cibet44 wrote:

It seems like being able to add "mythic" abilities to creatures of any level or CR obviates the need to have high-level characters or high CR monsters at all. If a “2nd Mythic Tier/3rd level” PC is equivalent to say a 10th level PC what’s the point of having both in the game? Is it so that players and GMs can play a high level epic game without having to bother gaining all the XPs and climbing the level ladder over the course of real time days and months?

To me, the difference between say Grey Mouser and a common pick pocket is their level. The same goes for King Arthur and a foot soldier. It is not something “mythic”, it is training and experience mixed with natural talent and fortitude; the very things that the level system abstracts for the game now. No?

It could be a reasonable way to have the awesomeness of high level play without the annoying/clunky math of high level play.


Awesome! been planning to run a gestalt with random classes as the second to represent the Herculus/Arthur/Kintaro spark in heros. This sounds much better :)

Nice!

EDIT: Legendary weapons? will we see an excaliber, aegus, etc.?


Based off GenCon announcements, Mythic Tiers will increase your CR on a 1 for 1 basis and you can't have more than half your normal level in Mythic Tiers.

So a first level Fighter with a Mythic Tier 1 would be equal to a CR 1 creature, or the same as a Second level Fighter.

At the same time, first, second and third level characters can only have 1 Mythic Tier. You can't gain a second Mythic Tier until 4th level. So at 4th level, you could have 2 Mythic Tiers, thereby making you, effectively, the same power as a 6th level character.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

7 people marked this as a favorite.

I just picked a fight with Jason about Fafhrd and Grey Mouser being mythic (Gilgamesh could kick their asses), and he concedes that he's talking about them more at the end of their careers, and that it's a bit of a stretch to fit them into the paradigm he's thinking about, particularly if you focus on the earlier "grittier" stories that I tend to.

So, I wouldn't fixate too much on those two characters for the time being.

Paizo Employee Global Organized Play Coordinator

xebeche wrote:
Do you see the Mythic Adventure rules integrating with Pathfinder Society in any way? How about with PFS characters?

Once I start seeing more info on the book, and chat with the developers, we will evaluate how or if we want to utilize it in PFS.

Paizo Employee Developer

9 people marked this as a favorite.
Pygon wrote:
If I take Amazing Initiative, can I use it to want Mythic Adventures now twice?

You can want it once now, but you have to wait eight months before your normal wanting of the product comes up in initiative order.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

At the very least, I expect to see mythic enemies to fight in PFS.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'd like to make a suggestion: change the name. I think that 'Mythic Rulebook' would suit it better, as then it sort of parallels the Core Rulebook.

Edit: Unless of course the 'Adventures' part is the beginning of a new line of products.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mark Moreland wrote:
Pygon wrote:
If I take Amazing Initiative, can I use it to want Mythic Adventures now twice?
You can want it once now, but you have to wait eight months before your normal wanting of the product comes up in initiative order.

NICE!!

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mark Moreland wrote:
Pygon wrote:
If I take Amazing Initiative, can I use it to want Mythic Adventures now twice?
You can want it once now, but you have to wait eight months before your normal wanting of the product comes up in initiative order.

What if I use my first turn to ready an action to want nevermind.


I really, REALLY wish this book was coming out sooner... or had come out a long time ago. Seriously. There are so many things that the Mythic system could have solved with a couple of the homebrew campaigns that I'm in right now.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Ooh, even in this brief description, I see so much potential. Using mythic at first level could be interesting, but I imagine you could have it so that characters can only become mythic after 20th level in order to mimic epic levels. As has been mentioned, it could work quite nicely with E6, allowing advancement without necessarily allowing spells beyond 3rd level (depending on how mythic works out). I can even imagine using mythic characters to represent the Chosen in the Forgotten Realms.

I'm really looking forward to this.

Erik Mona wrote:

I just picked a fight with Jason about Fafhrd and Grey Mouser being mythic (Gilgamesh could kick their asses), and he concedes that he's talking about them more at the end of their careers, and that it's a bit of a stretch to fit them into the paradigm he's thinking about, particularly if you focus on the earlier "grittier" stories that I tend to.

So, I wouldn't fixate too much on those two characters for the time being.

Thank you. I was thinking the same thing about these two characters.

One thing I'm wondering is whether any sort of "multipathing" (an analogue to multiclassing) in the mythic paths is possible. Could, for example, a magus be part archmage and part champion? Or a fighter be part champion and part warden?


A part of me is hoping for a fighter to be able to go down the Archmage path.

Muscle Wizard is born!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Aaron Scott 139 wrote:
I will be curious what path a gunslinger or alchemist would fall under. Gunslinger especially.

I think you could pretty much take any path you want, but some would obviously be more advantageous and complement your primary class abilities better than others. Offhand, Marshall, Champion, Warden, or Trickster seem like they could benefit the gunslinger- that is, without knowing anything specific about their abilities.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Draco Caeruleus wrote:
One thing I'm wondering is whether any sort of "multipathing" (an analogue to multiclassing) in the mythic paths is possible.

Jason confirmed as much upthread.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Odraude wrote:

A part of me is hoping for a fighter to be able to go down the Archmage path.

Muscle Wizard is born!

You could cast FIST!!


Will you be able to use Mythic abilities to qualify for non-mythic PrCs?


Kryzbyn wrote:
Odraude wrote:

A part of me is hoping for a fighter to be able to go down the Archmage path.

Muscle Wizard is born!

You could cast FIST!!

The fighter in my group always mentions how he is "casting" Power Attack, since he's the only member of the party without any spells (even the rogue has minor and major magic rogue tricks).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber

Another question: Would a party consisting of a mix of mythic/CR equivalent non-mythic characters feel fair?

Say a Fighter 6/Mythic Champion 2 and a Barbarian 8 (or equivalent)?

Also does anyone else want to run a game where the PCs play various kinds of Godlings creating the myth cycle of a campaign setting?

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Odraude wrote:
A part of me is hoping for a fighter to be able to go down the Archmage path.

Every part of me that read The Lord of the Rings is hoping for that.

Gandalf rarely cast spells and used a sword to kill the Balrog. Sounds like a fighter archmage to me.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think he was the Demigod class, with a bit of Archmage path thrown in.


1. Does this require every member of a party to by mythic? How do you keep a mythic PC from overshadowing the non-mythic PCs?

2. This obviously doesn't work like epic rules, but does this mean that epic rules (ie, levels above 20th) are off the table for the future?

I have to be honest, if I can become a demigod at 10th level using mythic rules, I see no point in advancing to 20th without them.


Cthulhudrew wrote:
Draco Caeruleus wrote:
One thing I'm wondering is whether any sort of "multipathing" (an analogue to multiclassing) in the mythic paths is possible.
Jason confirmed as much upthread.

Hah, missed that. Thanks.

Taldor

Alright Jason, I'll hold off any evaluation until I playtest it. You've delivered 100% quality so far, so my guess is that I will love it. Talk to you in September, I'll be happy to use my weekly group to check Pathfinder Mythic Adventures out.

And, by the way... PMA also stands for positive mental attitude, so I definately hope for the best!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Filby Pott wrote:

1. Does this require every member of a party to by mythic? How do you keep a mythic PC from overshadowing the non-mythic PCs?

2. This obviously doesn't work like epic rules, but does this mean that epic rules (ie, levels above 20th) are off the table for the future?

I have to be honest, if I can become a demigod at 10th level using mythic rules, I see no point in advancing to 20th without them.

Obviously, I don't know anything about it, but I don't see it working like that based on the preview. Each tier of mythic sounds like it requires specific deeds to be accomplished before advancing. My guess is that the things you have to accomplish to go from 9th to 10th tier isn't going to be done by a 10th level character.


This looks suspiciously like Paizo's attempt to make Pathfinder look and feel more like 4th Edition.


Berselius wrote:
This looks suspiciously like Paizo's attempt to make Pathfinder look and feel more like 4th Edition.

Because fourth edition of D&D has exclusiveness for "Tiers" and legendary characters? Rather not. Other RPGs had tiers that differentiated between gritty, heroic and epic characters long before anyone would ever thought that there will be 4th edition.


So many responses, and so quick!

This looks very exciting. I hope Paizo delivers on the promise I see here.

I have a question: is a design goal of these rules to enable players to increase the "power level" of their characters so they can take on current high-level monsters the Bestiary, without making running such a character more complex?

And on the monster end... Could these mythic rules and principles be applied to creature design, so as to allow for simpler-to-run powerful monsters? Say, an ancient red dragon?


Erik Mona wrote:

I just picked a fight with Jason about Fafhrd and Grey Mouser being mythic (Gilgamesh could kick their asses), and he concedes that he's talking about them more at the end of their careers, and that it's a bit of a stretch to fit them into the paradigm he's thinking about, particularly if you focus on the earlier "grittier" stories that I tend to.

So, I wouldn't fixate too much on those two characters for the time being.

+1

Only one other in my group has read Elric and none of them Fafhrd. Gilgamesh, Hercules, Beowulf, even Tiamat* they have heard of. Stand for a thousand years, then you get to be Mythic. :)

*"Of course Tiamat made it into the monster manual, and she was in that cartoon." -Bob the skull.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

I want to note, that at this time, there is no limit to how many mythic tiers you can possess, other than the upper cap of 10. The guideline about have no more than half your level is just that, a guideline (and done for good reason as some of the higher tier abilities cue off of higher level abilities from the classes).

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting Subscriber

Sign me up.


Sounds interesting, I can't wait!

Something I'm wondering: will a character's race play some sort of role in the Mythic system and the 6 mythic paths?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tonnerre wrote:

Sounds interesting, I can't wait!

Something I'm wondering: will a character's race play some sort of role in the Mythic system and the 6 mythic paths?

+1. Races that become more mythic over time is exactly what's missing from PFRG.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Berselius wrote:
This looks suspiciously like Paizo's attempt to make Pathfinder look and feel more like 4th Edition.

Huh!?!? That doesn't even make sense. I would think the LAST thing Paizo wants to do is try and make Pathfinder more like Fourth Edition ..


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Alright, one little spoiler...

This is a path ability that the champion can select.

Fleet Warrior (Ex): When the champion takes a full-attack action can also move up to his speed either before or after the attack. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. The champion must be at least 5th tier before selecting this ability.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Sounds about right. Far too many folks think moving and full attacking should be easily granted.


So, my burning question is:

Imagine I have a level 1 PC, Krovox the Barbarian.

Then I add tier 1 mythic abilities to him.

Could Krovox, God Among Men, reasonably expect to succeed at finishing a standard Adventure Path, solo, without adjusting the difficulty of the encounters?


My only concern is how much tougher Mythic characters are going to need to be. Upgrades to character abilities without increasing survivability just exasperates the glass cannon nature of D20 characters. ECL back in 3.5Era showed painfully well how a supposedly 10th level character with only 6th level HP was SOL in a fight for level 10 charcters.


Tinalles wrote:

So, my burning question is:

Imagine I have a level 1 PC, Krovox the Barbarian.

Then I add tier 1 mythic abilities to him.

Could Krovox, God Among Men, reasonably expect to succeed at finishing a standard Adventure Path, solo, without adjusting the difficulty of the encounters?

It doesn't sound like mythic is that big of an upgrade. Even if a mythic character is taking two actions a round *which sounds like it uses SOME sort of limited expenditure, deals double the damage and has twice the HP, He'll be still only one character subject to being devastated by crits or save or suck.


Frankthedm wrote:
Tinalles wrote:

So, my burning question is:

Imagine I have a level 1 PC, Krovox the Barbarian.

Then I add tier 1 mythic abilities to him.

Could Krovox, God Among Men, reasonably expect to succeed at finishing a standard Adventure Path, solo, without adjusting the difficulty of the encounters?

It doesn't sound like mythic is that big of an upgrade. Even if a mythic character is taking two actions a round *which sounds like it uses SOME sort of limited expenditure, deals double the damage and has twice the HP, He'll be still only one character subject to being devastated by crits or save or suck.

Except Mythic Tiers are supposed to count for CR, so I'm not really sure how that will work out.

Won't know until we see the playtest rules, I guess.

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