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Ultimate Equipment: What's Missing?

Tuesday, March 6, 2012

Now that we’re wrapping up the last of the Advanced Race Guide, the design team is starting to work on Ultimate Equipment. This hardcover will cover all kinds of mundane and magical items for the Pathfinder RPG. As we have a little time before the text goes over to the editors, we’d like to give you one last chance to provide feedback for the book. Is there a kind of magic item that you’d like to see in this book? Is there an item category that’s lacking? Is there a class or game mechanic that is underrepresented in the item lists? Leave your feedback to this blog entry and we’ll see what else we can cram into the book!

Edit: Just to clarify, this book is basically a "shopping catalogue" of items fantasy adventurers may want to own and have a reasonable chance of purchasing. It isn't introducing any new rule systems or subsystems (such as legacy weapons), rework character wealth by level or the problems with the "big six" magic items, or introduce new magic item slots, new classes or archetypes, clarifications or expansions of the crafting or magic item pricing rules, castles and furniture, shift existing items to different slots, include magical equivalents of technological items (cell phones, portable stoves), items that duplicate or invalidate class abilities or feats, or futuristic weapons. We are adding new magic items to every single magic item slot. In particular, we'd like to know if there are any mundane items, weapons, or armor that fill a niche which isn't already covered in the game.


Illustrations by Kieran Yanner
for GameMastery Item Cards: Skull & Shackles

Sean K Reynolds
Designer

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Tags: GameMastery Kieran Yanner Pathfinder Adventure Path Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
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Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Joyd wrote:
- Mechanically, there's very little difference between an item that's enhancing only a monk's left fist and an item that's enhancing all of a monk's unarmed strikes. There's nothing stopping a monk from hitting someone seven times with his left fist, just like there's nothing stopping him from hitting someone seven times with his +2 Flaming Kama.
Actually, because the rules say a monk's flurry is as if he's using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, he can't simply declare that he's using the same fist seven times. So there is something stopping him from hitting someone seven times with his left fist or a +2 flaming kama: the rules for how flurry works.

A) you are wrong, or B) You changing the rules just to win the argument.

Since I counting on A: This is not how the Monk is played or have been played since you released the Pathfinde Core book.

You should read Joyd's post again. He/She actuallt got some very good points...as he/she often has.

Ross Byers wrote:
oneplus999 wrote:
If you're fine with monks needing to pay 125k for +5 while the fighter pays 50k, then yes, AOMF is the way to go, and that idea ends.
This isn't true: A monk could buy a +5 kama for 50k and use that on every attack he makes in a flurry. Same cost as the two handed fighter, and less than the two-weapon fighter, who has to spend 100k (two weapons) to get the same attack progression. All he gives up is his unarmed damaged progression.

True, but there are other benefits from having two Weapons.

Having two types on weapons with different special abilities. Such as having one defending weapon. That said I think most players and GM:s find TWF a suboptimal choice. There are some exceptions. A TWF fighter (or ranger) with a lot of crit feats can really be nasty at higher levels.

BTW, The monks don't buy a Kama. They buy a temple sword.

Ross Byers wrote:


Enhancing a monk's unarmed strike is better than enhancing a weapon, because high-level monks deal more damage with unarmed strikes than with the light weapons two-weapon fighters need to get the same progression. (And if it wasn't better, we wouldn't be having this conversation because folks would just be using magic monk weapons.)

The amulet of mighty fists is costed correctly if you assume that enhancing a monk's unarmed strikes is a little better than a two-weapon fighter getting two weapons of that bonus. Which it is, because a monk doing 2d10 per hit on a flurry of blows is better than any weapon in the game in the hands of a two-weapon fighter.

You and Sean seems to be missing some stuff. Let me add a quote from Sean and then I answer you both.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:


If you want an item that enhances one unarmed attack, it has to cost a little more than the enhancement on a weapon, because it can't be disarmed, it doesn't look like a weapon (nobody's going to make you "leave your handwraps at the door" when you visit the king), and you never have to spend an action to draw it.

I understand your concern but I don't agree with some of your arguments.

It boils down to: do we still want most players do and use a temple sword or become a Zen Archer?
You are the Devs and I really appreciate you are both giving us feedback. You can't please us all but I just want to leave you with some stuff to consider.

Monks vs melee dude with TWF. You are forgetting some stuff.

As I said before. two weapons means you can have special abilities on both weapons. Such as adding defending on the of hand weapon.

Monks deal more damage. They get 2d10 on each it.
This is wrong.
1) you can't hurt what you can't hit. 2d10 doesn't matter if the hit doesn't land.
2) DR soaks damage.
3) Crit range. Why don't the TWF dude use Sword short bur a Kukri? Why doesn't the THF dude use Greatsword but a Falchion? Crit range.
4) Not all has is about damage. One of the main argument the fighter doesn't suck is all the feet he can pick. At higher levels it seems that crit feat are the way to go.
5) Base damage. 2d10+5 is less than 1d8+12. And with lead blade this can be even greater and the weapon still have a greater threat ranger and with versatile weapon DR can be dealt with. Both spells are on the ranger spell list and they don't need the dex to travel the TWF route.

You can disarm weapon: Yes, and you can steal an Amulet of Mighty Fists as in using a combat Maneuver Steal.

You can't disarm or steal the handwraps? I would mind. It's up to you Devs. You can call and design the new item any way you want.

Even if the Monk with the temple sword gets disarmed, One +5 Amulet of Mighty Fists costs more than 2 +5 temple swords. Even if you get disarmd you can just draw you second +5 temple sword.

Monk don't have to spend an action to draw it (the handwraps). Quick draw fixes that problem.

No one is going to make you "leave your handwraps at the door: Same thing today. The monk can kill the kind without handwraps, Amulet of Mighty Fists or temple sword. Just as a spell caster can kill the king without a weapon. So he now has handwraps instead of Amulet of Mighty Fists? I don't get is. The king might just as well say: Leave that dude without weapons outside the door. He is probably a spellcaster.

Hey, It's not a matter of winning, winning the argument or whatever. You are the Devs it your call. I can't beat you and I don't want to.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As stated earlier, I would like to see more kits created for perhaps different professions and crafts, as well as at different skill levels (possibly labeled Novice, Skilled, and Expert/ Artisan).

Also I am hoping to see a new weapon quality regarding Diseases. The weapon, either piercing or slashing, would be bestowed with a certain disease (costs may vary based on disease chosen) and on a critical hit the victim has to make a save versus the disease of the weapon. The save is equal to 15 + the enhancement bonus of the weapon; i.e..a +2 Red Ache Disease Longsword would cause the victim to have to make a DC 17 Fortitude save on a critical hit.

The base save being DC 15 does raise some of the other diseases saving throws but given that this weapon quality only works on critical hits, I feel, balances this factor out.

I would like to see an item that could possibly enhance both contact and inhaled poisons as well. Maybe something like this:

Poisoners Sphere
Aura minor transmutation; CL 5th
Slot --; Price 750gp; Weight -- lbs.
Description
A small silver spherical device which can hold one dose of any inhaled or contact poison at a time. When the device is activated upon command, and thrown, it functions as a Thrown Splash Weapon with a radius of 5ft. When the sphere lands on its mark the poison is converted to gaseous form and is released. The DC of the poison save is decreased by 2 due to converting the poison over to gaseous form. This function of the sphere cannot be repeated until another dose of poison is placed into the device.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, gaseous form; Cost 375gp

any thoughts would be appreciated...


I definitely think some random tables would be nice for treasure. Ones that include new magic items from all books published thus far. Tables might take 2 pages out of the book but I think they'd add a lot of value to it as a DM resource.


Jaryn Wildmane wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:


Actually, because the rules say a monk's flurry is as if he's using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, he can't simply declare that he's using the same fist seven times. So there is something stopping him from hitting someone seven times with his left fist or a +2 flaming kama: the rules for how flurry works.

Just some follow up questions on this.

How do Sohei monks flurry with two-handed weapons if this is the case?

Why are monks in the The Ruby Phoenix Tournament Module allowed to do this?

Emphasis mine; didn't want this post to get lost in the shuffle. I can't speak for the module, since I've not read over it, but I find this Sohei question to be a sizable hole in the 'flurry' logic that you can't use the same 'weapon' for all of those attacks.

I would also like to go on record saying that I have seen Jet Li make several iterative attacks with a single fist. "Unleashed" is a prime example of that. May not be an in-game precedent, but something.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

Zark wrote:
It boils down to: do we still want most players do and use a temple sword or become a Zen Archer?

You're making the mistake of assuming we "want" monks played one way or another.

Foghammer wrote:
I would also like to go on record saying that I have seen Jet Li make several iterative attacks with a single fist. "Unleashed" is a prime example of that. May not be an in-game precedent, but something.

I don't believe I ever said you couldn't make iterative attacks with a fist.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Zark wrote:
It boils down to: do we still want most players do and use a temple sword or become a Zen Archer?
You're making the mistake of assuming we "want" monks played one way or another.

It doesn't seem like a stretch to think that the developers would want every option to have an equally good chance to be picked.

Of course the counter arguement that only temple-sword wielding Sohei and Zen Archers are desirable is an obvious overstatement, but those archetypes are apparently more desirable to a large chunk of the forum-posting population than the other alternatives.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Foghammer wrote:
I would also like to go on record saying that I have seen Jet Li make several iterative attacks with a single fist. "Unleashed" is a prime example of that. May not be an in-game precedent, but something.
I don't believe I ever said you couldn't make iterative attacks with a fist.

I'd venture to gess that Foghammer was trying to suggest that Jet Li seems to be able to flurry with a single fist in his various action films.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Actually, because the rules say a monk's flurry is as if he's using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, he can't simply declare that he's using the same fist seven times. So there is something stopping him from hitting someone seven times with his left fist or a +2 flaming kama: the rules for how flurry works.

This is news to me. You might want to post this in the FAQ or maybe even make an errata to make this more clear if this is the way things are supposed to work, because I think almost everyone has been assuming you can do a flurry with a single weapon. This is part of the reason why people have been upset about the cost of the AoMF.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor

I've never been that big on the one-handed flurry, so I rather like that. Works me to make a monk take their "off-hand" flurry attacks with some other weapon or type of strike than the "primary" attacks. It gives a monk a reason to use two sais, or both ends of a quarterstaff.

I happily endorse this reading :)


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

"I use my pinky on my left hand for the first attack, the ring finger for the second, the middle for the third, the pointer for the 4th, and the thumb for my fifth attack."


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Matrixryu wrote:


This is news to me. You might want to post this in the FAQ or maybe even make an errata to make this more clear if this is the way things are supposed to work, because I think almost everyone has been assuming you can do a flurry with a single weapon. This is part of the reason why people have been upset about the cost of the AoMF.

I just noticed that Ross Byers actually makes that same assumption in this very thread. He's not a game developer, but is Paizo staff. If there is confusion internally, it might be a good candidate for inclusion in the FAQ.


Zilvar2k11 wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Foghammer wrote:
I would also like to go on record saying that I have seen Jet Li make several iterative attacks with a single fist. "Unleashed" is a prime example of that. May not be an in-game precedent, but something.
I don't believe I ever said you couldn't make iterative attacks with a fist.
I'd venture to gess that Foghammer was trying to suggest that Jet Li seems to be able to flurry with a single fist in his various action films.

Yes. 9__9 Sorry for not splitting that hair.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Volaran wrote:
Matrixryu wrote:


This is news to me. You might want to post this in the FAQ or maybe even make an errata to make this more clear if this is the way things are supposed to work, because I think almost everyone has been assuming you can do a flurry with a single weapon. This is part of the reason why people have been upset about the cost of the AoMF.
I just noticed that Ross Byers actually makes that same assumption in this very thread. He's not a game developer, but is Paizo staff. If there is confusion internally, it might be a good candidate for inclusion in the FAQ.

Just because marketing is confused about my current project doesn't mean there's confusion amongst the people actually working on the project.

If it was SRM instead of Ross, that'd a good argument.


For the Flurry of Blows and how many times you can hit with a weapon --

I have made a thread Here.

So it can get discussed outside of Ultimate Equipment suggestions.


Afraid I'm too lazy to wade through the entire thread, so I'll just post my idea and hope it overlaps enough with someone else to count as another vote. :)

The main thing would be some type of bandolier, gloves, or something to make thrown weapons more viable. Enchant a bandolier like a weapon, and any (non-magical) weapon stored in it gain its enhancements for one round. This would allow a character build to focus on thrown weapons and the like, which is currently prohibitively expensive if you want more than 1-2 attacks.


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REGARDING UNARMED STRIKES

This one is a tough one. I feel that the major impasse I'm seeing here is that we have two drastically different viewpoints on the fluff of unarmed strikes. Every argument made seems to flow around these viewpoints:

1. Unarmed strikes are restricted and treated similarly to weapons, unlike natural attacks (they use iteratives instead of an attack routine, etc). The game treats unarmed strikes as a single weapon in the mechanical sense, it should be priced as such.

2. Unarmed strikes can be made with various parts of the body. Since you could potentially punch, or headbutt, or kick, or whatever, you are effectively "wielding" multiple weapons in this manner. It should be priced as if you have multiple weapons.

I see this as exactly the same train of thought as the Exotic Weapon Proficiency conflict between developers and critics. One party is arguing strictly mechanical issues, while the other party is arguing the fluff and feel.
Neither party are going to budge on this one, I think, so it's more a matter of recognizing where stand on this issue, personally, and consider the various houserules suggested.

Regarding the balance of the option however, I do have a few comments about things stated in this thread:

It's too strong (or must be expensive) because it can't be disarmed, etc.
While this is a benefit, how do we price this bonus? A gauntlet is a weapon that cannot be disarmed. It's pretty cheap. Locking gauntlets help a lot for virtually any weapon.
If one can sunder a worn item, such as a gauntlet, then a worn item like handwraps seems just as fair game. If not, then the Steal maneuver would open up different opportunities beyond Sunder and Disarm.
None of these things really warrant a sudden multiplier to all the magical benefits of the weapon, but rather maybe a base +Xgp flat price, at worst.

It's metagame thinking to say that it would apply to unarmed strikes and not natural attacks.
Personally, I find you can create fluff to justify almost any rule, so really this does not seem like a deterrent whatsoever.
There's far worse items that break metagame thinking than handwraps that enhance unarmed strikes. The Cloak of Resistance is one. No amount of "force" or "body/mind enhancement" or anything I've tried to think of can fit the cloak without making one question why it only kicks in for making saves.
For handwraps, we don't really need to look any further than the Monk Robe. It's a magic item that imbues you with enhanced training techniques for unarmed strikes, and when you perform these moves it sets off magical effects. I can even come up with some amazing roleplaying fluff off the top of my head:
These handwraps belonged to the Ifrit monk, Tichar. His martial prowess channeled his Ki flow, creating explosive effects through his strikes. The wearer finds that his unarmed strikes take on Tichar's quick and solid fighting style, channeling his efreeti fire through each blow: +1 flaming burst.

2d10 damage is too crazy strong to be used with normal priced weapon enhancements.
Firstly, I'd just like to say that 2d10 damage is a Monk Feature, not a feature of unarmed strikes. When you say this, it really means "Monk's shouldn't get normal priced weapon enhancements", because that's who has 2d10 damage.
Honestly, that statement sounds just the same as if we said "But you can get +5 damage with a longsword using Weapon Training, that's too strong for a normal priced weapon".
Let me break this down:
1. Monks can use 1d10 19-20/x2 damage weapons as monk weapons (so works with flurry).
2. 2d10 is an average of 5.5 points higher than such a weapon.
3. Unarmed strike damage increase is a class feature (listed under Unarmed Strikes).
4. Fighters get +5 damage with a single weapon group, also from a class feature (Weapon Training in this case).
This seems to me to be really quite equal, if you ask me. The Monk's options are more limited, but he's not a primary combat character (medium BAB, etc), so it makes sense that he's only good with a specific weapon.
A Fighter, for instance, can get this increase with ranged or reach weapons, and a much wider variety on top of that.
In the end, 2d10 20/x2 with normal enhancements, vs 2d6+5 19-20/x2 is not a big deal (the Monk is behind, quite frankly). As a "balance issue", it's not a problem.

If we make this change, it's outright better than any other option, and everyone will pick it.
I'd like to challenge the "outright better" part of this statement.
Factors about Unarmed Strike:
1. 20/x2 crit range. This means poor for critical-reliant feats, and enhancements like elemental/sonic bursts. It also makes for a slightly lower damage factor, letting lower damage but higher crit factor weapons catch up when you start adding in a lot of base damage bonus.
2. Locked strength bonus. A temple sword (and a few other weapons) can be wielded in two hands. If you are a strength focused character (or happen to get some strength buffs), that 1.5x Str can make up for the loss of damage. This also factors in power attack benefits as well, which can quickly close the gap for any damage difference.
3. Unarmed strikes are susceptible to touching effects, like Burn.
4. Unarmed strikes can only reach targets within normal reach. Reach weapons, and ranged weapons grant a number of benefits (attacking without being in range to be attacked, or attacking those with reach more easily, etc).
5. Trip weapons. Disarm weapons. Brace weapons. Block weapons. Distracting weapons. Deadly weapons. Grapple weapons.
Unarmed strikes are none of these.
.
There's plenty of reasons to choose alternative weapons to unarmed strikes, even if they have similar weapon enhancement pricing.

.

I can accept that this might not be the book to insert this kind of "game changer" option (personally, I feel that Ultimate Combat was the time to do such a thing, it bucked the trend and gave multiple flavours of firearms... it was a book about alternative thinking).

I can accept if this is going to run it's course in the same way as Exotic Weapon Proficiencies, where it's a matter of taste and style rather than straight mechanics.

However, I do not accept the "balance" reasons, and metagame claims that have been given so far.

To put it bluntly, if those are the reasons given why it's not a good idea, I find that an inadequate answer. In this situation, I'd prefer a more honest answer of "because it doesn't fit the style and theme we want for unarmed strikes".


REGARDING THE ORIGINAL REQUEST

I like the idea of (and have been working on) a line of magic items that grant a number of low level magical benefits, similar to cantrips or low level spells, with the primary purpose of making adventuring life easier.

A "Prepared Pathfinder's" line of items, so to speak.
Such items as:

A comfy bedroll that grants protection from the elements and increased healing from sleep. Perhaps a stronger version that grants actual healing, or a single use of "nap stack" once per week.

A "utility vest" that gives a number of benefits:
- a canteen that always has water, and can be made boiling hot, or chilled on command
- a washcloth that when wetted, will instantly clean any object or person (and his belongings) on a touch
- a light that can be made to emit like a torch, or a bullseye lantern, or on command, narrow the light to a beam and ignite something at range (like spark)
- a set of miniature tools, that can repair anything by gently tapping for a while (similar to mending)
- a spoon that can be used to flavour food and drink on touch, and even purify diseased or rotten stuff
- a set of mundane equipment: grappling hook and rope, compass, mapmaker's kit, healing kits, that return to the vest or replenish after 24 hours out of the vest
- small pouches that act similar to handy haversacks, but only enough room to be used for ammunition (like shuriken or bolts), or as a spellcasting component pouch

An "11 foot pole" (ours go to 11!). A rod that is similar to the rod of lordly might, however it comes with utility in mind. Sure it will have a setting for a light, onehanded and twohanded stick or spear weapon, but also the option to extend to a 10 foot pole that has an "11th foot" that's a sunrod, or has the option to lock in place like an immovable rod, or stick and unstick the end piece like uses of sovereign glue and universal solvent respectively (to catch those things in hard to reach places).

Some "Superior Spectacles" that grant a number of vision based effects:
- read magic
- read any language
- detection (magic, poison, disease, secret doors), by concentrating and saying a command
- search quickly at a distance and follow tracks more easily (sift and deadeye's lore)
I like the idea that some of them actually are corrective lenses, and give a "headache" after extended use (Con to minutes, headaches being a lesser sickened condition, -1 to rolls, doesn't stack with sickened).

A necklace that lets people whisper conversations at range (like message), but only to "attuned" necklaces.

A "camping stick", simply a rod that grants an area effect for protection from the elements, and holds food, water, feed, cookware, and sleeping bags for a standard sized group (possibly a 4 person + 4 horses version, and a grander 6x6 version).

.

I don't know if everyone would want these, but I think they are really neat ideas that the "rich adventurer" might opt for.

Perhaps even a discount for having a large number of effects (normally priced fairly high), since they are all fairly low level effects. Or not, since they can give a LOT of function to a non-spellcasting character.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Russ Taylor wrote:

I've never been that big on the one-handed flurry, so I rather like that. Works me to make a monk take their "off-hand" flurry attacks with some other weapon or type of strike than the "primary" attacks. It gives a monk a reason to use two sais, or both ends of a quarterstaff.

I happily endorse this reading :)

Yea, truth be told, I do like the flavor of using monk weapons in both hands. The one handed flurry was a little silly.

Sean, I did just think of one detail that you might want to take into consideration. There are now several monk archetypes that lose their flurry of blows, so in a way they are no longer "Two-Weapon Fighting". So, maybe it would make sense to have weaker and cheaper AoMF that works for monks that don't use flurry? Though, doing this in a way that doesn't seem odd (like handwraps on one hand) could be difficult.


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I'd like to see a small section on minor magical flavor items. Things that adventurers would laugh at, but that you might expect to find in NPC houses (either the wealthier NPCs or the ones in areas where magic items are more common, such as the town around a magical school). For example, in a 3.5 game I once came up with a rocking chair that cast cure minor wounds (heal 1 hp) on the target after they spent an hour sitting in it. It was usable an unlimited amount per day, but only by one person at once, so at most it could heal 24 hp. Basically, it was a "I sit on my porch and rock, and eventually I feel restored." item for NPCs. My players loved it, even though they wouldn't benefit from it at all.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Zark wrote:
It boils down to: do we still want most players do and use a temple sword or become a Zen Archer?
You're making the mistake of assuming we "want" monks played one way or another.

I didn't. My apology on the bad wording.

I meant: it would be nice with some options to that make a monk, especially the vanilla monk, fighting unarmed more appealing and on par with temple sword wielding monks and a Zen Archers.

And that comes from someone that rather post stuff on the Bard, Cleric, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer or any spontanious caster. Meaning: I don't really care for the monk, but some do and the game is all about all having having fun. If unarmed fighting vanilla monk lovers get more happy, fine.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

I'd like to see some kind of tool that could assist in feinting in combat. Sort of like the distracting weapon quality, but not a weapon.


This topic seems like a trick question, but i guess it's really for strict PFS folk. Anything I can think of that i'd like to see in a game, I just put in the game. And it's rather hard to think of things I haven't thought of for a game.

Something I've had in my own games for many years, that always go over well, are essentially wondrous items that are little travelling companions trapped in stone tablets. A player reads the tablet, and gets little creature following them around. It can't die, pick up stuff, fight, help really, but it usually gives some ability or passive boost based on it's level. They all have 10 levels. Whenever experience was gained, they could give a portion of the amount they earned to level the tablet creature.

I could go on, but basically they were like figurines that were always on, with more abilities that were reigned in for power vs level.

They're probably more complicated than what you're looking to add, but it's something I'd enjoy seeing pathfinder's take on.

Cheliax

Evil Lincoln wrote:

...Please rework treasure generation and placement. The current CRB+GMG system is kludgey to the point of unusable. Percentage tables take up an incredible amount of space in the Core Rulebook and GMG, and yet I have never successfully generated treasure in a way that was easy or satisfying.

If the designers would have us pick treasure and place it in a semi-random way, let the rules call that out.

Include slots for "Reroll or roll from a book of the GM's choice" or some other way we can expand this table to subsequent books.

Include treasure hoard "templates" instead of 100% random — just a list of all the item types you ought to include, and a quick roll to randomize that (double potions, no scrolls, etc). Then some guidelines on places to stash treasure in the adventure (how much NPC gear? How much hidden cache? How much in monster bellies?)

Do everything you can to eliminate the frustrating process of generating invalid results and going back to the beginning.

Make sure these results work correctly with things like the settlement statblocks — I ran into problems with that the last time I tried the CRB+GMG method. I can't remember the specifics, I banished them with self-inflicted head trauma.

I do understand that these are legacy issues that stretch back even beyond 3.0... but it would be a shame to have this book released and miss the opportunity to fix it. Think of the effort you'll save on behalf of all those GMs! They'll run more games, which means more people will play, which means more sales! It's totally worth it!...

I too feel very strong about this. I will say the Magic Item Compendium in 3.5 was the best 3.5 book EVERY WRITTEN for that system. That being said, it was not because of the items within the book, or the new enchantments (because some were broken). It was because the book was divided so nicely, with a massive section in the back that had the items divided up into charts that made placing magic items in a game soooo easy. I'm not saying to copy this style verbatim, but to give us something akin to it. I know people who still use this book just ignoring the items for psionics, incarnatum, or whatever else they had.

In short, please give us a way to drop items "randomly" into a game that does not include the current minor, medium, major magic item system.

Also:
MORE low cost staffs
*****MORE low cost wondrous items (1000 gp or less)*****
MORE boots
MORE bracers
MORE gloves
MORE gauntlets
MORE helmets
MORE vests/shirts
MORE belts

....pretty much more body slots.

Class specific stuff is cool too. Stuff that helps boots
Alchemists bombs/mutagens
Barbarian rage
Cavalier challenge
Cleric/oracle/paladin channel energy
Monk anything
Paladin smite
Ranger favored enemy
Rogue sneak attack
Sorcerer bloodline
Summoner's eidolon
also magic items that impact animal companions and familiars


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Something similar to the Rod of Ropes from Complete Scoundrel would be great. Grappling hooks/zip lines/lots of rope all in one item!


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Sean K Reynolds wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
What the desire for handwraps boiled down to is "I want to be able to use something that can be enchanted like a weapon but uses my unarmed strike damage." I don't remember anyone asking about NOT being limited to punches.

Ah, so you want your cake and to be able to eat it, too. Why ever use a cheap-to-enhance weapon (with weaker damage) when you can use a handwrap that lets you deal unarmed strike damage and add enhancement bonuses and flaming to it? Why put a +5 enhancement bonus on your kama when you could add an ability that lets you deal 2d10 damage instead of 1d6?

DeathQuaker wrote:
Heck, you could wear a magic handwrap on one hand, and nothing on the other, and when you would flurry, the attack with your handwrap would be with your weapon and all its enhancements, and the attack with your empty fist would be an unarmed strike, with all its enhancements (or lack thereof).

Yes, which is why I said you'd need some language clarifying iterative attacks with that limb, because the monk writeup doesn't require you to specify what part of your body you're using. A level 20 monk in full flurry at +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 could be doing seven headbutts, seven punches, or seven kicks as far as the rules are concerned because the rules assume his attacks are either all unaugmented or his whole body is augmented. If he has magic handwraps that only affect one hand, that changes the parameters of how monk attacks and flurries work and we have to specify certain things for the first time, like "you're actually making X primary attacks any Y iterative attacks, so you're only applying the handwrap's bonus to X' and Y' instead of all instances of X or Y."

So if you're using this "I enhance only one of my attacks" item, you need to specify which one as part of your attack routine. If you don't want to deal with that, then you go with "no enhancement" or "amulet of mighty fists," because you can't have it both ways.

The AoMF is overpriced because it also applies to natural attacks. Monks are paying for a feature that they (generally) do not use. So, SKR, how about this:

We know that wondrous items can have armor bonuses (bracers of armor, robes of the archmagi). So we don't make these handwraps or gloves weapons, we make them wondrous items. Like so.

Gloves of Unarmed Striking

This pair of magic leather gloves bestow great prowess in unarmed combat. When both gloves are worn, the wearer receives an enhancement bonus of between +1 to +5 to the attack rolls and damage rolls of his unarmed strikes. If only one glove is worn, the magic does not function. These gloves only enhance unarmed strikes, and are not applicable to a creatures natural attacks. The gloves of unarmed striking only grant enhancement bonuses (not special weapon properties), and only up to a maximum bonus of +5. The gloves of unarmed striking can stack with the special weapons properties of an amulet of mighty fists, but only the higher enhancement bonus of these two items is applicable.

Cost: 2,000 gp (+1), 8,000 gp (+2); 18,000 gp (+3), 32,000 gp (+4); 50,000 gp (+5).

And there you go. It isn't a weapon, so the monk can flurry with it. It isn't a weapon, so the monk gets his unarmed damage. It is a wondrous item the meets the needs of a monk, while still giving the AoMF a place and a niche (for special weapon properties).

EDIT: As an added benefit, since the item above isn't restricted to a single limb, there won't be anything such as the 'one-fist' flurry derided above. Your monk will be able to mix and match his punches, kicks, leg sweeps, head butts, etc. without worry, just like he was wearing an AoMF.

Master Arminas

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

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Can we also get some clarification about the generic "Masterwork Tool" in the core rulebook?

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

master arminas wrote:

The AoMF is overpriced because it also applies to natural attacks. Monks are paying for a feature that they (generally) do not use. So, SKR, how about this:

We know that wondrous items can have armor bonuses (bracers of armor, robes of the archmagi). So we don't make these handwraps or gloves weapons, we make them wondrous items. Like so.

Gloves of Unarmed Striking

This pair of magic leather gloves bestow great prowess in unarmed combat. When both gloves are worn, the wearer receives an enhancement bonus of between +1 to +5 to the attack rolls and damage rolls of his unarmed strikes. If only one glove is worn, the magic does not function. These gloves only enhance unarmed strikes, and are not applicable to a creatures natural attacks. The gloves of unarmed striking only grant enhancement bonuses (not special weapon properties), and only up to a maximum bonus of +5. The gloves of unarmed striking can stack with the special weapons properties of an amulet of mighty fists, but only the higher enhancement bonus of these two items is applicable.

Cost: 2,000 gp (+1), 8,000 gp (+2); 18,000 gp (+3), 32,000 gp (+4); 50,000 gp (+5).

And there you go. It isn't a weapon, so the monk can flurry with it. It isn't a weapon, so the monk gets his unarmed damage. It is a wondrous item the meets the needs of a monk, while still giving the AoMF a place and a niche (for special weapon properties).

EDIT: As an added benefit, since the item above isn't restricted to a single limb, there won't be anything such as the 'one-fist' flurry derided above. Your monk will be able to mix and match his punches, kicks, leg sweeps, head butts, etc. without worry, just like he was wearing an AoMF.

Master Arminas

My Two-Weapon Fighting Ninja or Brawler Barbarian would love these! Bonuses to both my unarmed attacks for the price of one weapon enchantment? Sign me up!

I'm being a little tiny bit sarcastic, and apologize for that. :)


+1 to Master Arimas, though I would hope for a more flavourful name ;)

There are two precedents that suggest to me that this makes sense, and jives with existing rules for magic.

1: Greater Magic Fang
This spell treats a creatures unarmed strike the same way as it does a single natural attack (incrementing bonus up to +5), rather than a single +1 bonus for the creature's whole body, as it does when enhancing multiple natural attack forms on a single creature.

This suggests both a game-mechanical reason, and a fluff reason for magic to treat natural attacks and unarmed strikes differently. Someone trained with Improved Unarmed Strike has worked to make their entire body a single, effective weapon, rather than using multiple natural gifts like sharp teeth and claws. These gloves would do the same (I could see a set of slippers, or even some sort of body wrap that would do the same thing).

Right now, Permanent Greater Magic Fang is probably the monk's most affordable route for permanent unarmed strike enhancement, and this item would seem to work off that, but without the drawbacks of a permanent spell.

2: The Monk's Robe
This is a core rules item that takes up a body slot, and substantially increases a character's unarmed strikes as though they'd trained as a monk. It is priced reasonably for what it does, and it has no effect whatsoever on natural attacks without breaking versimilitude for me.

Whether or not something like this makes it into Ultimate Equipment, I'm happy to swipe these gloves for my game. Thanks!


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:


My Two-Weapon Fighting Ninja or Brawler Barbarian would love these! Bonuses to both my unarmed attacks for the price of one weapon enchantment? Sign me up!

I'm being a little tiny bit sarcastic, and apologize for that. :)

I don't think the sarcasm is needed. :) These seem like an item set that would do very well for unarmed types other than the monk without being overpowering. If the monk's unarmed strikes emulate TWF, I don't see any issue with an unarmed ninja taking the TWF feats normally reaping benefits the same way.


I don't know how many pages of this monk stuff has been going on, but has anyone addressed the fact that their attacks that can't be disarmed, asked to be left behind, detained, as a matter of balancing?

I would think a non-weapon item that enhances unarmed strikes would cost more simply because it has more versatility in game use. A +5 weapon is great and all, but it can be disarmed, dropped, fumbled out of someone's hands. Sometimes weapons have to be left behind in certain areas. WHile many times i've heard npc's ask people to leave their weapons somewhere, very little, if ever, have i heard them ask a pc to leave their jewelry somewhere.

It's just seems like there's a lot more utility wrapped into that cost.


Volaran wrote:

+1 to Master Arimas, though I would hope for a more flavourful name ;)

There are two precedents that suggest to me that this makes sense, and jives with existing rules for magic.

1: Greater Magic Fang
This spell treats a creatures unarmed strike the same way as it does a single natural attack (incrementing bonus up to +5), rather than a single +1 bonus for the creature's whole body, as it does when enhancing multiple natural attack forms on a single creature.

This suggests both a game-mechanical reason, and a fluff reason for magic to treat natural attacks and unarmed strikes differently. Someone trained with Improved Unarmed Strike has worked to make their entire body a single, effective weapon, rather than using multiple natural gifts like sharp teeth and claws. These gloves would do the same (I could see a set of slippers, or even some sort of body wrap that would do the same thing).

Right now, Permanent Greater Magic Fang is probably the monk's most affordable route for permanent unarmed strike enhancement, and this item would seem to work off that, but without the drawbacks of a permanent spell.

2: The Monk's Robe
This is a core rules item that takes up a body slot, and substantially increases a character's unarmed strikes as though they'd trained as a monk. It is priced reasonably for what it does, and it has no effect whatsoever on natural attacks without breaking versimilitude for me.

Whether or not something like this makes it into Ultimate Equipment, I'm happy to swipe these gloves for my game. Thanks!

Thank you, Volaron. Yes, the name was just something I came up with on the spur of the moment; feel free to change it as you will. I actually looked at having an unarmed strike enhancement bonus on Monk's Robes, but that puts even a basic +1 even further out of reach for lower level characters. That +50% cost for a second property really jacks the price quite high and very fast.

Master Arminas


Kakitamike wrote:

I don't know how many pages of this monk stuff has been going on, but has anyone addressed the fact that their attacks that can't be disarmed, asked to be left behind, detained, as a matter of balancing?

I would think a non-weapon item that enhances unarmed strikes would cost more simply because it has more versatility in game use. A +5 weapon is great and all, but it can be disarmed, dropped, fumbled out of someone's hands. Sometimes weapons have to be left behind in certain areas. WHile many times i've heard npc's ask people to leave their weapons somewhere, very little, if ever, have i heard them ask a pc to leave their jewelry somewhere.

It's just seems like there's a lot more utility wrapped into that cost.

No, monks cannot be disarmed, nor can they leave their weapons behind. Neither can fighters, rangers, barbarians, ninjas, assassins, or any other class that chooses to specialize in unarmed strikes. By the rules, unarmed strikes are a SINGLE weapon. Why should these gloves be priced higher because it is a weapon that can't be disarm? You could always sunder the gloves, of course.

Master Arminas


Kakitamike wrote:

I don't know how many pages of this monk stuff has been going on, but has anyone addressed the fact that their attacks that can't be disarmed, asked to be left behind, detained, as a matter of balancing?

I would think a non-weapon item that enhances unarmed strikes would cost more simply because it has more versatility in game use. A +5 weapon is great and all, but it can be disarmed, dropped, fumbled out of someone's hands. Sometimes weapons have to be left behind in certain areas. WHile many times i've heard npc's ask people to leave their weapons somewhere, very little, if ever, have i heard them ask a pc to leave their jewelry somewhere.

It's just seems like there's a lot more utility wrapped into that cost.

That's a valid point, but one could say the same thing about gauntlets. Should a gauntlet enhanced as a weapon cost significantly more than a sword with the same enhancements?

I understand the mechanical reason you're suggesting it, but how many cost multipliers would be reasonable?

Unarmed is generally a pretty sub-optimal choice for a combat style, and even doing it as a monk has drawbacks. One of the few cool things you get is that people underestimate the unarmed guy...unless of course he's famous for beating people and monsters to death unarmed. Then he's the guy that gets shackled and has to wear iron books when the party meets the king ;)

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Volaran wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:


My Two-Weapon Fighting Ninja or Brawler Barbarian would love these! Bonuses to both my unarmed attacks for the price of one weapon enchantment? Sign me up!

I'm being a little tiny bit sarcastic, and apologize for that. :)

I don't think the sarcasm is needed. :) These seem like an item set that would do very well for unarmed types other than the monk without being overpowering. If the monk's unarmed strikes emulate TWF, I don't see any issue with an unarmed ninja taking the TWF feats normally reaping benefits the same way.

Which is why I apologized :)

So if you don't see a problem with this, how do you think the weapon-using Two-Weapon Fighter is going to feel? He's got to spend twice as much money enchanting his weapons as the monk or ninja does theirs.

Next, people will be asking for a "magic weapon cord" that enhances two weapons, but only costs as much as one magic weapon. :)


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
master arminas wrote:

The AoMF is overpriced because it also applies to natural attacks. Monks are paying for a feature that they (generally) do not use. So, SKR, how about this:

We know that wondrous items can have armor bonuses (bracers of armor, robes of the archmagi). So we don't make these handwraps or gloves weapons, we make them wondrous items. Like so.

Gloves of Unarmed Striking

This pair of magic leather gloves bestow great prowess in unarmed combat. When both gloves are worn, the wearer receives an enhancement bonus of between +1 to +5 to the attack rolls and damage rolls of his unarmed strikes. If only one glove is worn, the magic does not function. These gloves only enhance unarmed strikes, and are not applicable to a creatures natural attacks. The gloves of unarmed striking only grant enhancement bonuses (not special weapon properties), and only up to a maximum bonus of +5. The gloves of unarmed striking can stack with the special weapons properties of an amulet of mighty fists, but only the higher enhancement bonus of these two items is applicable.

Cost: 2,000 gp (+1), 8,000 gp (+2); 18,000 gp (+3), 32,000 gp (+4); 50,000 gp (+5).

And there you go. It isn't a weapon, so the monk can flurry with it. It isn't a weapon, so the monk gets his unarmed damage. It is a wondrous item the meets the needs of a monk, while still giving the AoMF a place and a niche (for special weapon properties).

EDIT: As an added benefit, since the item above isn't restricted to a single limb, there won't be anything such as the 'one-fist' flurry derided above. Your monk will be able to mix and match his punches, kicks, leg sweeps, head butts, etc. without worry, just like he was wearing an AoMF.

Master Arminas

My Two-Weapon Fighting Ninja or Brawler Barbarian would love these! Bonuses to both my unarmed attacks for the price of one weapon enchantment? Sign me up!

I'm being a little tiny bit sarcastic, and apologize for that. :)

That's exactly why I was asking for a weapon that does unarmed strike damage (and counts as a flurryable monk weapon) (which I am making note of because Master Arminas included part of my discussion as a preface of the post), rather than a wondrous item that enhances unarmed strikes. By letting it follow weapon rules it avoids certain pitfalls of just enhancing unarmed strikes.

But I also dig what Master Arminas is attempting. The situation is tricky all around, and I understand why SKR is hesitant to go there.

It's just very frustrating because there is a need that is not being filled by current rules, IMO. And if SKR intends to stick to his guns, the need will continue to go unfulfilled.


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:


Which is why I apologized :)

So if you don't see a problem with this, how do you think the weapon-using Two-Weapon Fighter is going to feel? He's got to spend twice as much money enchanting his weapons as the monk or ninja does theirs.

Next, people will be asking for a "magic weapon cord" that enhances two weapons, but only costs as much as one magic weapon. :)

Fair enough on the apology :)

I think the TW Fighter is likely a core fighter, who has the Weapon Training ability granting him incrementing bonuses to his preferred weapons as he levels up, or is a Two-Weapon Warrior from the APG who gains incrementing bonuses to any two-weapon or double weapon combo as he goes up in level. I also think he's benefiting from choosing a weapon-type that is probably superior to Unarmed Strikes for almost anyone but a monk, and is a full BAB class to boot.

In other words, while he's grumbling about how he had to spend 64 000 gp for two +4 short swords as compared to 50 000 for the monk's nice +5 gloves, he'll have the tremendous amount of focused-on-killing-things class abilities to keep him warm at night ;)


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Heh. Funny story here, on (sort of) this topic. Once upon a time, in a campaign far, far away, there were a valiant and gallant band of adventurers. All right, all right: they were pragmatic, die-hard, I am in this for me, types of adventurers!

Well, after having averted a major crisis for the kingdom, the party gets invited to the Palace to be rewarded by the king. Needless to say, neither the king nor his court are very happy when the uncouth party (including two barbarians) shows up decked out in all their normal gear, not court outfits.

We (relunctantly) parted with our weapons and went on to enjoy the feast and fest in our honor. But as the night passed, the king got more and more upset with how our barbarians were acting. Especially, when one of them kept interupting his royal majesty and the second one flatulated every time the king shifted position on his throne.

Finally, the king lost his patience. He flat-out ordered the party to keep silent, threatening to throw us all in the dungeon if we didn't. And we nodded, agreeing, so the king stood up again and began his speech. And at that point one the barbarians found a wish bone in his chicken. And he started playing with it.

In a short time, the two barbarians were playing football with the chicken bone (you know, that game you played back in elementary and junior high school with little triangles of paper). The king got redder and redder in the face, and he finally thundered at the two barbs to knock it off, on the pain of death!

So, one of the barbarians waits until the king starts his speech again and then he tells the DM, "I flick the chicken bone at that pompous ass."

We died. We were laughing so hard it took five minutes before the DM could restore order. At long last, he told the player running that barbarian to roll a 'to-hit'. Sure enough, Natural 20. Chicken bone goes flying right into the left eye of the king!

We had to fight our way out of the feasthall, recover our weapons, fight through the Royal Guards to get out of the palace, cut our past the knights outside, and finally galloped away. That's when the thief asked, "Ah, fellows? Which one of you picked up our reward?"

Well, we did what any D&D party would do. We turned around, cut our way back into the city, fought through more Royal Guards and wizards to the throne room, grabbed the chest holding our promised reward (and the barbarian took a dump on the king's throne), and then made our escape a second time! Of course, the king survived and we became wanted criminals in his kingdom, but what did we care? We moved on and had many more epic adventures!

And the moral of this story is: there are no dangerous weapons in D&D, only dangerous adventurers!

Master Arminas

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

DeathQuaker wrote:

That's exactly why I was asking for a weapon that does unarmed strike damage (and counts as a flurryable monk weapon) (which I am making note of because Master Arminas included part of my discussion as a preface of the post), rather than a wondrous item that enhances unarmed strikes. By letting it follow weapon rules it avoids certain pitfalls of just enhancing unarmed strikes.

But I also dig what Master Arminas is attempting. The situation is tricky all around, and I understand why SKR is hesitant to go there.

It's just very frustrating because there is a need that is not being filled by current rules, IMO. And if SKR intends to stick to his guns, the need will continue to go unfulfilled.

I get that, and I definitely think this issue is one that deserves looking in to.

I guess I just don't see it as a need so much as a want (and I realize that probably sounds really dismissive, but I don't mean it that way.)

Bypassing material DR, on the other hand, that seems like a more pressing and achievable goal.


Volaran wrote:


That's a valid point, but one could say the same thing about gauntlets. Should a gauntlet enhanced as a weapon cost significantly more than a sword with the same enhancements?

Yeah, gauntlets are a tough call, but I'd still hardline them separate from unarmed strikes. I'd still put manufactured weapons separately from built in weapons. Again, doing work, I think you can get a weapon chain for certain melee weapons, but I don't want to run a billion what if scenarios, rust monsters, fancy parties, disjunction, magnetic fields, etc.

It does seem you could have separate items for unarmed strikes and for natural attacks, and cut the prices somewhat.

However, in reading up on gauntlets, I am a bit confused. They seem to be a manufactured weapon that deal unarmed strikes. If you had +5 gauntlets and +5 aomf, are you getting +10?

Or + cap aside, do +2 gauntlets and +3aomf give you +5 to your attacks?


I would assume that it would be a case of taking the higher bonus.

If you have a +3 AoMF, and a +1 Flaming Gauntlet, the attacks would be at +3 Flaming. Similar to using a +3 bow and +1 Flaming Arrows.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Volaran wrote:

Fair enough on the apology :)

I think the TW Fighter is likely a core fighter, who has the Weapon Training ability granting him incrementing bonuses to his preferred weapons as he levels up, or is a Two-Weapon Warrior from the APG who gains incrementing bonuses to any two-weapon or double weapon combo as he goes up in level. I also think he's benefiting from choosing a weapon-type that is probably superior to Unarmed Strikes for almost anyone but a monk, and is a full BAB class to boot.

In other words, while he's grumbling about how he had to spend 64 000 gp for two +5 short swords as compared to 50 000 for the monk's nice +5 gloves, he'll have the tremendous amount focused-on-killing-things class abilities to keep him warm at night ;)

Not all TWFers are fighters. Rogues and Rangers also often use Two Weapons (one for extra sneak attacks, the other because there's a combat style for it).

And they're grumbling about how they have to pay 100k gp for two +5 weapons, while the gloved monk only has to pay 50k.

Are they using weapons that are better than unarmed strikes? Probably. Enough to call the price difference with the proposed gloves fair? I don't believe so.


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:


Not all TWFers are fighters. Rogues and Rangers also often use Two Weapons (one for extra sneak attacks, the other because there's a combat style for it).

And they're grumbling about how they have to pay 100k gp for two +5 weapons, while the gloved monk only has to pay 50k.

Are they using weapons that are better than unarmed strikes? Probably. Enough to call the price difference with the proposed gloves fair? I don't believe so.

First, a quick bit. I had meant to enter 64 000gp as the price for 2 +4 weapons above, and I have edited the original post to match. For a full BAB class, the difference between +4 and +5 weapons at the levels when you'd have them is pretty negligible.

I did focus on the Fighter bit of TWF, so please accept my apology on that one.

Rangers and rogues are are somewhat more situational in their fighting styles, so are a more apt comparison to the monk.

A ranger has a lot of the same advantages as a fighter, being a full BAB class. Again, the price difference between Master Arminas' +5 gloves, and 2 +4 weapons isn't too difficult. A well planned ranger will have his situational bonuses in his favour a fair portion of the time. They also don't need to qualify for their bonus feats, and so are a bit less MAD than the monk. The ranger is one of the few classes that can be a strength-based two-weapon combatant, and can be quite deadly as such.

The rogue example has a lot less going for it. Their bonuses are very situational, they work best in a team environment, etc. I'm generally not a hard-core optimizer, but I know that a rogue focused on TWF is already not going an ideal route in terms of hitting a lot.

To be honest, I can see these gloves being a very viable option for rogues, especially urban thief or killer types. I wasn't kidding about your ninja above. I would honestly like to see unarmed combat be a more viable option for classes like these, and I think this sort of item would go along way towards that.

Keep in mind that these gloves, as Master Arminas proposes, only effect flat atk/dmg rolls. An unarmed warrior who wants other types of weapon abilities is still going to be paying through the nose for an AoMF.

Even with these as an option, I think a lot of unarmed warriors would still opt for a permanent magic fang, or greater magic fang. It can be dispelled of course, but it remains much more affordable for a similar effect once your get beyond the +1 range.

Edit: Looks life real life is calling me away for at least a few hours, so that might be my last statement before this tangent is buried by other posts. In case it is, thanks to Master Arminas, Benchak the Nightstalker, and Kakitamike for some excellent diversion :)


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
Volaran wrote:

Fair enough on the apology :)

I think the TW Fighter is likely a core fighter, who has the Weapon Training ability granting him incrementing bonuses to his preferred weapons as he levels up, or is a Two-Weapon Warrior from the APG who gains incrementing bonuses to any two-weapon or double weapon combo as he goes up in level. I also think he's benefiting from choosing a weapon-type that is probably superior to Unarmed Strikes for almost anyone but a monk, and is a full BAB class to boot.

In other words, while he's grumbling about how he had to spend 64 000 gp for two +5 short swords as compared to 50 000 for the monk's nice +5 gloves, he'll have the tremendous amount focused-on-killing-things class abilities to keep him warm at night ;)

Not all TWFers are fighters. Rogues and Rangers also often use Two Weapons (one for extra sneak attacks, the other because there's a combat style for it).

And they're grumbling about how they have to pay 100k gp for two +5 weapons, while the gloved monk only has to pay 50k.

Are they using weapons that are better than unarmed strikes? Probably. Enough to call the price difference with the proposed gloves fair? I don't believe so.

Except that a character's unarmed strikes are a single weapon. Flurry is NOT the same as Two Weapon Fighting, even though it references TWF. Which also means, that rules-as-written, you cannot two-weapon fight with only unarmed strikes. Why? Because unarmed strikes are only a single weapon; to two-weapon fight you must have two weapons.

Monks appear to, but that is because flurry of blows is not the same thing as two weapon fighting.

Master Arminas

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

To make arguments based on statements that have already been contradicted by developer rulings and rules text is really bad form, arminas.


Not if I think the developers are wrong. Three years of this game being played and now, all of a sudden, two things that weren't the same suddenly are? That is a retcon. And retcons are wrong. In my own opinion.

Master Arminas

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Monk Discussion:
master arminas wrote:

Except that a character's unarmed strikes are a single weapon. Flurry is NOT the same as Two Weapon Fighting, even though it references TWF. Which also means, that rules-as-written, you cannot two-weapon fight with only unarmed strikes. Why? Because unarmed strikes are only a single weapon; to two-weapon fight you must have two weapons.

Monks appear to, but that is because flurry of blows is not the same thing as two weapon fighting.

Master Arminas

As Jiggy points out, Sean's most recent posts on the subject seem to indicate you're not correct here.

And there's magic fang, which lets you enhance one unarmed strike, implying that multiple unarmed strikes are possible.

Plus, it just makes intuitive sense. You've got two fists, an attack with a fist is an unarmed strike, so you can Two-Weapon Fight with unarmed strikes.

If you've got a quote from the rules saying otherwise, please post it. (although perhaps behind a spoiler or in another thread, I feel we may be doing Ultimate Equipment a disservice by threadjacking this one.)

EDIT: Spoilered by own comment.

ALSO EDIT:

master arminas wrote:

Not if I think the developers are wrong. Three years of this game being played and now, all of a sudden, two things that weren't the same suddenly are? That is a retcon. And retcons are wrong. In my own opinion.

Master Arminas

See, here's the problem arminas. You suggest adding an item based on an interpretation of the rules you know the designers and developers don't share to an official book that, by necessity, has to reflect the rules as-interpreted by those same designers and developers.

That doesn't work.

In your home games, please feel free to include your gloves. But don't expect to see them in an official product, since they absolutely don't jive with the official position on how flurries and unarmed strikes work.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Monk Discussion:

The devs have been wrong or/and changed their minds about rulings or/and had different devs make different statements at different times. There is no reason to believe that this is the last word by the devs on the subject matter.

I share Master Arminas opinion that Sean's ruling doesn't comply with the supporting material published by Paizo, see for example from the Jade Regent adventure path:

Jade Regent 02, Night of Frozen Shadows, page 48:
earthfire shuriken flurry of blows +9/+9/+4 (1d2+2 plus 1d6 fire)

Jade Regent 04, Forest of Spirits, page 41:
monk wielding mwk nunchaku flurry of blows +11/+11/+6/+6 (1d6+3)

Jade Regent 05, Tide of Honor, page 8:
+1 keen naginata* flurry of blows +14/+14/+9/+4 (1d8+5/19–20/×4)

Likewise the Ruby Phoenix Tournament features monks that have non-double-weapon flurry attacks.

Apart from that, there is no game theoretical reason to limit monks in such an unexpected way. Statistical evaluation shows clearly that monks - even with single-weapon flurries - are not as good combatants as the proper full-BAB classes.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Monk Discussion:
Sean K Reynolds and Jason Bulmahn, the two most senior rules guys at Paizo, agree with each other on how this rule works (and, in their minds, has always worked). It may not be the last word on the issue, but it's probably the closest thing you can get to the last word .

As for your examples, yeah, I think it's pretty clear a lot of people were operating under wrong ideas about how flurry worked, adventure writers included. That it's pervasive doesn't mean it's correct.

(Also, isn't your first Jade Regent example using three different shuriken to make her three separate flurry attacks?)


Monk Discussion:

Quote:

Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with a flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

The complete text for Flurry of Blows. In my own reading, the as if clause refers to the number of additional attacks and the penalty associated with them. Clearly, via the remainder of the text, flurry of blows differs dramatically from two-weapon fighting (which is not restricted in the use of particular weapons, which can have natural attacks added to the iterative attack routine, and have varying penalties based upon the size (light, one-handed, etc) of the two weapons.

Quote:

Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown above on Table: Monk. The unarmed damage values listed on Table: Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with his unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage on the table given below.

Here we see that the design team deliberately incorporated the statement that there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. This does not contradict the above section on flurry; it amplifies it.

Quote:

Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)

You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off-hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting in combat.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off-hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way your suffer a -6 penalty with yoru regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.

Now, we know from the text of the monk's unarmed strike above that there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. So, if flurry of blows is the same thing as TWF, how is the monk gaining the extra attack? Logically, it then follows that flurry and TWF are not the same thing and the reference to TWF in the text of flurry applies to the number of additional attacks gained and the penalty applied to the monk's BAB (which can be inferred from the Table: Monk in the monk class description). That penalty is -2 from the virtual BAB when the monk makes a flurry attack.

But wait, you say! So the unarmed attacks of the monk have to be the primary weapon; that means the monk weapon can be the secondary weapon. And that weapon is restricted to the 1, 2, or 3 attacks granted by the TWF chain.

Sorry, that isn't correct either. A monk can make his attacks in a flurry with any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). Any combination. The text is quite specific. Hence as a 15th level monk armed with an amulet of mighty fists +2, a silver kama +3, and several +1 shuriken, with flurry attacks of +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3, he can mix and match those weapons (unarmed strike, kama, and shuriken) as he sees fit. He doesn't have to use his off-hand weapon at +13/+8/+3, because the specific text in flurry of blows overrides the text in the feat description when it says in any combination.

This is why I think (on this occassion), Sean K Reynolds has got it wrong and his comments are a retcon to the rules that will only serve to weaken the monk class.

Also posted on the other thread devoted to this specific topic: Attacking with a weapon . . .

Master Arminas


I'd like to suggest a variant treasure system that lets crafting characters discover useful components over the course of an adventure, even if stranded in wilderness (see Smuggler's Shiv). And then balancing that sort of system against more pre-generated treasure troves.

One home brew rule that I've encountered is using Craft (Alchemy) or similar skills to roll on a table similar to the Pathfinder Society Day Job table. We would only use this when encountering unusual things, like magical beasts or strange plants.

Something that fits this overall spirit but which has been play-test proven would be great.


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:

That's exactly why I was asking for a weapon that does unarmed strike damage (and counts as a flurryable monk weapon) (which I am making note of because Master Arminas included part of my discussion as a preface of the post), rather than a wondrous item that enhances unarmed strikes. By letting it follow weapon rules it avoids certain pitfalls of just enhancing unarmed strikes.

But I also dig what Master Arminas is attempting. The situation is tricky all around, and I understand why SKR is hesitant to go there.

It's just very frustrating because there is a need that is not being filled by current rules, IMO. And if SKR intends to stick to his guns, the need will continue to go unfulfilled.

I get that, and I definitely think this issue is one that deserves looking in to.

I guess I just don't see it as a need so much as a want (and I realize that probably sounds really dismissive, but I don't mean it that way.)

Bypassing material DR, on the other hand, that seems like a more pressing and achievable goal.

Well, since the gloves provide an enhancement bonus to unarmed strikes, Benchak the Nightstalker, remember that +3 weapons or higher ignore certain types of DR (as per page 568 of the SRD; under damage reduction in the glossary). +3 ignores cold iron and silver; +4 bypasses adamantine (but doesn't ignore hardness like an adamantine weapon); and +5 ignores alignment-based DR. No, it is not a perfect solution, but it might be a solution that is good-enough.

Master Arminas

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