Ultimate Equipment: What's Missing?

Magic charms, magic locations, Base class that would fit well in the mana waists or numeria, building enhancements like a magic forge, clockwork items, unreliable clockwork items, magic food, books that give you an equipment bonus on knowledge checks, games of golarion like blood pig, equipment feats Ex. rapped rummage, rules for running a shop or guild, random scroll wand and potion chart, common magical items +1 plow of root bane, equipment inventing rules similar to magic item creation rules.

Phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range.

That would make it on the power level of the light bulb in those toy kitchen ovens we used to make those round flat cakes when I was a child.

MendedWall12 wrote:

Being able to play a fantasy themed gambling game at the table that was actually sanctioned by Paizo would rock.

There is a game called "Towers" you can play with a Harrow Deck

Well, I guess I found my next purchase. Thanks for pointing that out Ross.

@Caedwyr: I'll check it out, thanks.

I would enjoy an expansion of the "kits" from PFSFG.

I would enjoy an expansion of the "kits" from PFSFG.

+1111111

Kits rock, I always forget to buy something important for my 1st levl chars and wind up the creek and without a sewing needle.

+1111111

So +127?

A solution to the big six, it doessn´t matter how cool a cloack of the montebank is, Jimmy, nine fingers still has pick a cloack of protection if he wants to survive that medusa´s gaze.

Humbly,
Yawar

Any chance we can get some clarification on how magic items are priced or is that too rulesy?

i would love to see a 2 or 3 item set that gives a bonus for completing it. bracers neck/face and boots. each item would have its own abilities but you would gain a spell like ability if all 3 were combined.

More will come as I am typing from my phone,

What about a powder that can be placed into any food or drink (making it taste marvelous) while also granting a bonus to diplomacy checks? After all, good food amongst enemies and friends can rouse a pleasant evening of conversation.

More on the way, but any thoughts?

this is called LSD

There was an absolutely stellar magical item in Complete Scoundrel.

It's called the 'Rod of Ropes', and it is essentially Batman's grapple gun. Something like this or a 'hook-shot' would be a welcome addition to the roguish character's repertoire.

I want editorial consistency on two things:

1. What category an item gets put into.

For example, a hammer gets listed as "adventuring gear" (in the Core Rules) but an anvil gets listed as "Tools" in the APG (even though both equipment sections have both "adventuring gear" and "tools" as categories). Everything needs to be sorted out in a consistent and intuitive place.

Further, I think items specifically needed for class features need to be in their own section, away from other listed items (for example, Alchemist's Kit, Spellbook, Spell Component Pouch, Holy Symbol -- these should all be on their own list, away from other tools or adventuring gear).

2. What gets listed as "General Item, Specific" and what gets listed as "Just this specific item here."

For example -- we have on the equipment table in the core rulebook the following items:

sword, short
longsword
greatsword
sword, bastard
sword, two-bladed

Further, "sword, short" is listed as "shortsword" in the item descriptions (the others are listed as sword, [specific], matching their table entry).

So either "longsword" should be "sword, long" or the other items should be shortsword, bastard sword, two-bladed sword, etc.

Then we have in the CRB "dagger" and "dagger, punching." But then in the APG we have "swordbreaker dagger" (as opposed to "dagger, swordbreaker"). This is especially where it gets ticklish because in UE, if I understand, all these items are being reprinted, so if a reader sees "dagger" they think, "okay for all kinds of daggers, I will look it up under "dagger" first and not by a descriptor--and then they might miss swordbreaker dagger entirely.

I am sorry if this is pedantic, but it really drives me crazy, and it really makes it difficult to look for items in compiled lists sometime. (I made my own combo list of CRB and APB items for my players, and half the time I spent was just trying to make everything read consistently and be easy to find -- but it makes finding things SO much easier and is so much more player friendly.)

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Other Stuff:
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Banners - For cavaliers. Well, for everyone, really, but if you're carrying a banner, there should be a weight and cost and whatnot associated with it. Those things are heavy! If a cleric's gotta buy a holy symbol and a wizard's gotta buy a spellbook, a cavalier should buy a banner.

Wondrous Items for neglected body parts -- What I mean is, is there's lots of generally very useful cloaks and amulets and boots, but I'd like to see more shirts and bracelets and circlets, for example.

(Heh, when I typed that, I accidentally typed "shorts." I guess we could use more of those too. ;) )

Packages -- like the "Standard Adventurer's Kit" others have mentioned. I think there could be others like the "spellcaster's pack" and "the dungeoneering pack" and the "mountain climbing pack" etc.

More special materials. I recall the old Arms and Equipment guide had an elven leaf armor thing that was sort of like mithral but for non-metal armors. Something like that would be cool, as well as other special materials that might give bonuses to certain kinds of movement or protect from certain kinds of attacks, etc. etc.

I DON'T want more general types of weapons or armor; I think we've got it pretty well covered by the existing books. We're even pretty good for general enchantments for weapons and armor -- although specific magic weapons and armor are always cool, including artifacts.

wolflord wrote:

- Something like a Pearl of Power for spontaneous casters. Perhaps allowing an unknown spell once per day.

such an item already exists, Runestone of Power, so i'd expect that it'd be in the ultimate equipment guide

The item doesn't already exists,as far as I know.

BTW I hope the runestone and a pearl granting one more spells know will be in the ultimate equipment guide.

I'm really liking the idea of an ultimate equipment guide.

I may get shouted down for this, but...

Collecting and reprinting, in one book, all unique magic items that have only otherwise seen print as part of modules and/or adventure paths up to a reasonable point.

+1 and reprinting of non-magic items too

- Low level/budget magic items; things that you can buy when you are levels 1-5.

+1

Handwraps for monks.

Okay, explain to me how you can justify this as an "unarmed strike only, doesn't affect natural attacks" sort of item. If a human can put this on his hands, why can't a lizardfolk put it on his claws? It's very metagamey.

Souphin wrote:

A healing kit that allows mundane healing using the heal skill

You mean like what you can already do with a healer's kit and the heal skill...

I'm not sure what Eric Clingenpeel meant but, the heal skill and skills like the craft alchemy skill is far from powerful. If you invest 10 or 15 ranks in a heal or craft alchemy they should be a bit more useful than they are now. Or else people will just go on maxing perception.

Already been said, but I'll say it again, more alchemical stuff.

By 10th level, 15th level, 20th level, craft (alchemy) should be making *better* alchemical fire (more initial damage, longer-lasting, more splash effect, etc.) and thunderstones that really go *BANG*, not just the same old stuff. The 'Epic Alchemy' rules from the 3.0 Epic Handbook were a decent idea, but that was in no way worth an epic feat. That's the sort of stuff that should have shown up around 10th level. Alchemical 'ice' and 'spark' and whatever would also make sense, as well as longer-lasting acids, etc.

Religious items. The game has been around for twenty years, and a decent selection of magical holy symbols or icons has yet to make a splash. The basic model could just be sort of a 'masterwork' holy symbol that adds +2 pts of damage to a use of channeled energy, while the better models add +1 / die to channeled energy usage, and up the DC by 1 or 2. Diety specific models would allow extra use of Domain abilities or domain spells, or even spontaneous use of domain spells from domains that the cleric didn't choose (using their domain slots).

Theurgic items like holy oils (It's holy water! It's alchemist's fire! It's *both* when splashed on a demon or undead!) and saints bones and reliquaries and sacred texts could all use a place in the game.

+1 Set.

Packages -- like the "Standard Adventurer's Kit" others have mentioned. I think there could be others like the "spellcaster's pack" and "the dungeoneering pack" and the "mountain climbing pack" etc.

+1

Mikaze and Set wrote:

Handwraps for monks.

Okay, explain to me how you can justify this as an "unarmed strike only, doesn't affect natural attacks" sort of item. If a human can put this on his hands, why can't a lizardfolk put it on his claws? It's very metagamey.

You wrap them around your fists, which are bludgeoning weapons. Claws are slashing weapons, so wrapping them with something will just drastically reduce their effectiveness. 'Simulationist'-wise, it's plausibe to use identical or similar items as Handwraps on Natural Weapons like Tail Slaps or Slams (Bludgeoning), but Claws or Bites... not so much. Of course, Adamantite Claw/Tooth 'sheaths' could have equivalent function (mechanics wise).

Mikaze and Set wrote:

Handwraps for monks.

Okay, explain to me how you can justify this as an "unarmed strike only, doesn't affect natural attacks" sort of item. If a human can put this on his hands, why can't a lizardfolk put it on his claws? It's very metagamey.

The first thing that occurs to me is to make them something that is restricted to creatures with a ki pool. This gives easy access to monks, ninja, rogues with the appropriate talent, and other classes willing to dip into one of those other options.

Which seems nice until I think about something with natural weapons dipping to one of those classes, and the whole problem comes up again. Ah well...

You wrap them around your fists, which are bludgeoning weapons. Claws are slashing weapons, so wrapping them with something will just drastically reduce their effectiveness. 'Simulationist'-wise, it's plausibe to use identical or similar items as Handwraps on Natural Weapons like Tail Slaps or Slams (Bludgeoning), but Claws or Bites... not so much. Of course, Adamantite Claw/Tooth 'sheaths' could have equivalent function (mechanics wise).

Okay, so why couldn't a creature with slam attacks use these proposed handwraps of unarmed strike augmenting? Slams are bludgeoning.

I have now a picture of a Gargantuan golem wrapping soft, tender handwraps around his car-sized fists.

I think if those aren't planned, it'd be nice to just explicitly say so.

There is, of course, a certain awkwardness with suddenly monks going from fighting with their whole body to just their hands. I just know people would be using the bonuses in situations where they shouldn't, due to the oddity of your unarmed attacks being enchanted, but your unarmed attacks being not-enchanted.

Okay, so why couldn't a creature with slam attacks use these proposed handwraps of unarmed strike augmenting? Slams are bludgeoning.

Pre-errata brass knuckles :D there fixed it.

I think if those aren't planned, it'd be nice to just explicitly say so.

I'm not ruling it out... if there is a workable solution. But "these handwraps work on unarmed strikes but not other bludgeoning hand-based attacks" is not a workable solution.

Mikaze and Set wrote:

Handwraps for monks.

Okay, explain to me how you can justify this as an "unarmed strike only, doesn't affect natural attacks" sort of item. If a human can put this on his hands, why can't a lizardfolk put it on his claws? It's very metagamey.

I wouldn't justify it at all. If a lizardfolk wants to wear a handwrap, that's fine with me. If a non-Monk wants to wrap his hands and buff his unarmed combat options, I'm fine with that, too.

I did say 'for Monks,' but did not intend to exclude it from anyone who isn't a monk.

Some handwraps, with 'fantasy kung fu' / wuxia-like effects or powers, might specifically require one to have a point of ki remaining or a ki pool, to use, but those would be as specifically 'monk-ly' as a spellbook is specifically 'wizard-ly' and not of much use to the other 10 core classes (and countless monster types) that can read.

Mikaze and Set wrote:

Handwraps for monks.

Okay, explain to me how you can justify this as an "unarmed strike only, doesn't affect natural attacks" sort of item. If a human can put this on his hands, why can't a lizardfolk put it on his claws? It's very metagamey.

This is how you describe the weapon:

Hand wraps: (or brass knuckles or cesti or whatever)
These are weapons which deal an amount of damage equal to your unarmed strike damage. Monks can use these weapons as part of a flurry of blows. When you have hand wraps equipped, you cannot make unarmed strikes with your hands. Magical enchantments, feats, and class abilities which apply to weapons apply to hand wraps. Magical enchantments, feats, and class abilities which apply to unarmed strikes and natural attacks do not apply to hand wraps, with the exception of abilities which increase the wielder's unarmed strike damage. (Add in similar text to brass knuckles about stuff you can do with your open hand)

You cannot substitute natural attack damage for unarmed strike damage when determining the damage dealt by these weapons.

Mikaze and Set wrote:

Handwraps for monks.

Okay, explain to me how you can justify this as an "unarmed strike only, doesn't affect natural attacks" sort of item. If a human can put this on his hands, why can't a lizardfolk put it on his claws? It's very metagamey.

I agree but why not have them anyway

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Mikaze and Set wrote:

Handwraps for monks.

Okay, explain to me how you can justify this as an "unarmed strike only, doesn't affect natural attacks" sort of item. If a human can put this on his hands, why can't a lizardfolk put it on his claws? It's very metagamey.

This is how you describe the weapon:

Hand wraps: (or brass knuckles or cesti or whatever)
These are weapons which deal an amount of damage equal to your unarmed strike damage. Monks can use these weapons as part of a flurry of blows. When you have hand wraps equipped, you cannot make unarmed strikes with your hands. Magical enchantments, feats, and class abilities which apply to weapons apply to hand wraps. Magical enchantments, feats, and class abilities which apply to unarmed strikes do not apply to hand wraps, with the exception of abilities which increase the wielder's unarmed strike damage. (Add in similar text to brass knuckles about stuff you can do with your open hand)

You cannot substitute natural attack damage for unarmed strike damage when determining the damage dealt by these weapons.

...That's not bad.

Is it so important to protect the distinction between hand-based unarmed attacks and hand-based natural attacks for the purpose of this item? Because that is metagaming. Why not have hand wraps that work on slam attacks too?

Trying to be clever by saying "bludgeoning only" or somesuch is going to have players wrapping their earthbreakers in handwraps. They're handwraps. They should only work on hands.

I would be 100% ok with monsters that had handwraps on their slam attacks. As far as I'm concerned, that makes it easier for me to place them as treasure for monks! Otherwise, they're going to scour every city for a shop that has them, or get them crafted. Why fight it?

Cheapy wrote:

I think if those aren't planned, it'd be nice to just explicitly say so.

I'm not ruling it out... if there is a workable solution. But "these handwraps work on unarmed strikes but not other bludgeoning hand-based attacks" is not a workable solution.

I've always looked at Slam attacks as a hulk smash, non-finesse kinda thing. Just kinda waving around those giant limbs to hit something. Unarmed strike for monks is all about concentrating force into a certain area. Things like brass knuckles (which I still think is stupid not to add onto unarmed damage, I houserule it in) are force multipliers. All of that power going into a punch is spread over a much smaller area, thus increasing the effect of the punch.

As far as the handwraps and whatnot go, I really don't see how they'd work any better. Maybe if they're metal studded handwraps, it kinda goes the way of brass knuckles into being a force multiplier. Or things like wrist wraps, which would help to keep your wrist from flexing when hitting something, and keeping the full force of a hit.

Gauntlets of ogre power- that stack with belts of giant strength

Vest of resisance

Bracers of deflection-1/round deflect ray/ranged touch attack

Gem of healing- 1/day pick one effect:cure serious, remove disease, remove blindess, or neutralize poison

Is it so important to protect the distinction between hand-based unarmed attacks and hand-based natural attacks for the purpose of this item? Because that is metagaming. Why not have hand wraps that work on slam attacks too?

Trying to be clever by saying "bludgeoning only" or somesuch is going to have players wrapping their earthbreakers in handwraps. They're handwraps. They should only work on hands.

I would be 100% ok with monsters that had handwraps on their slam attacks. As far as I'm concerned, that makes it easier for me to place them as treasure for monks! Otherwise, they're going to scour every city for a shop that has them, or get them crafted. Why fight it?

+1

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Mikaze and Set wrote:

Handwraps for monks.

Okay, explain to me how you can justify this as an "unarmed strike only, doesn't affect natural attacks" sort of item. If a human can put this on his hands, why can't a lizardfolk put it on his claws? It's very metagamey.

This is how you describe the weapon:

Hand wraps: (or brass knuckles or cesti or whatever)
These are weapons which deal an amount of damage equal to your unarmed strike damage. Monks can use these weapons as part of a flurry of blows. When you have hand wraps equipped, you cannot make unarmed strikes with your hands. Magical enchantments, feats, and class abilities which apply to weapons apply to hand wraps. Magical enchantments, feats, and class abilities which apply to unarmed strikes and natural attacks do not apply to hand wraps, with the exception of abilities which increase the wielder's unarmed strike damage. (Add in similar text to brass knuckles about stuff you can do with your open hand)

You cannot substitute natural attack damage for unarmed strike damage when determining the damage dealt by these weapons.

Whoops, realized I should have said "deal an amount of damage equal to your unarmed strike damage DICE."

Also, if you want to restrict these to "hands only, no natural attacks," -- that's no more metagamey than prohibiting core monks from using natural attacks in a flurry of blows.

Quandary wrote:

You wrap them around your fists, which are bludgeoning weapons. Claws are slashing weapons, so wrapping them with something will just drastically reduce their effectiveness. 'Simulationist'-wise, it's plausibe to use identical or similar items as Handwraps on Natural Weapons like Tail Slaps or Slams (Bludgeoning), but Claws or Bites... not so much. Of course, Adamantite Claw/Tooth 'sheaths' could have equivalent function (mechanics wise).

Okay, so why couldn't a creature with slam attacks use these proposed handwraps of unarmed strike augmenting? Slams are bludgeoning.

I agree :-)

I don't really feel like accusations of being "metagamey" are very fair, considering all the existing metagameyness that goes on...

Brass knuckles getting nerfed? Metagamey.
Improved natural attack invalid for monks? Metagamey.
It's infeasible for there to possibly be a cheaper AOMF that is explicitly "This only applies to unarmed strike but not natural attacks" while there's a million other things in the game that can only be applied to X? Example: dervish dance on scimitars. Metagamey.

I have no problem with metagameyness. I think game balance is more important than "makes sense". It's your game, do what you want, I'll do what I want in my game, but I feel like this is not a fair complaint to have.

Is it so important to protect the distinction between hand-based unarmed attacks and hand-based natural attacks for the purpose of this item? Because that is metagaming. Why not have hand wraps that work on slam attacks too?

...I would be 100% ok with monsters that had handwraps on their slam attacks. As far as I'm concerned, that makes it easier for me to place them as treasure for monks! Otherwise, they're going to scour every city for a shop that has them, or get them crafted. Why fight it?

Right...

Game stats for the Ipad3.

I removed a trolling post.

Hah now that I think about it, the improved natural attack one is particularly apt. You can't POSSIBLY imagine that there's handwraps that apply only to monk unarmed damage but not natural bludgeoning attacks, and yet there's a feat that inexplicably does exactly that, but vice versa?

I would be 100% ok with monsters that had handwraps on their slam attacks. As far as I'm concerned, that makes it easier for me to place them as treasure for monks! Otherwise, they're going to scour every city for a shop that has them, or get them crafted. Why fight it?

As long as handwraps aren't in a Tanooki encounter.

Yawar

Is it so important to protect the distinction between hand-based unarmed attacks and hand-based natural attacks for the purpose of this item? Because that is metagaming. Why not have hand wraps that work on slam attacks too?

Because I believe the earlier concern was "I want a handwrap item that enhances unarmed strikes, but doesn't limit me to just punches."

So the goal is:

* An item that helps monks with unarmed strikes
* That wouldn't just limit the monk to punches
* That wouldn't be OP in the hands of a creature with multiple natural attacks
* That costs less than the amulet of mighty fists

* An item that helps monks with unarmed strikes

* That wouldn't just limit the monk to punches
* That wouldn't be OP in the hands of a creature with multiple natural attacks
* That costs less than the amulet of mighty fists

#3 doesn't really bother me, since I think cost would be prohibitive for putting a wrap on each attack...

The other three do sound good, though. I hope this means you're considering something along these lines for inclusion, then...

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Is it so important to protect the distinction between hand-based unarmed attacks and hand-based natural attacks for the purpose of this item? Because that is metagaming. Why not have hand wraps that work on slam attacks too?

Because I believe the earlier concern was "I want a handwrap item that enhances unarmed strikes, but doesn't limit me to just punches."

So the goal is:

* An item that helps monks with unarmed strikes
* That wouldn't just limit the monk to punches
* That wouldn't be OP in the hands of a creature with multiple natural attacks
* That costs less than the amulet of mighty fists

Yup sounds like you are done :)

Amulet of Unarmed Strike:
cost is enh^2*2k
Max +10 effective enhancement

If there's balance reasons, sure, keep it the way it is. But I don't see how it's really unbelievable or metagamey to have this item, considering everything else that's going on in the world. I don't even see a problem with it still taking up the natural armor slot if it's for balance purposes.

I agree that being handwraps kind of implies that they are for punches only, which doesn't really work (eg no bonus on various kick feats?) unless you make them inherently magicy.

Alternative: Make a powered down Monk's robe item for a few k that comes with +1 enhancement on UAS, maybe +1 Stunning fist per day, UAS is 1 level higher, and +1 enhancement. Make both Monk robes and new lesser monk's robes enchantable like melee weapons, only applies to unarmed strike.

Maybe some kind of periscope (or other device) that allows one to see around corners?

Wigs.

Magical refrigeration device.

Music boxes, magical or otherwise.

Maybe some kind of periscope (or other device) that allows one to see around corners?

Exists.

Here is an alternative thought for monk weapons:

Make a small change to the text of flurry of blows (or insert this elsewhere under a general 'monk weapon' heading.

A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows unless the weapon has the Ki-Focus enhancement and the monk has taken the Weapon Focus feat in the chosen weapon's type. A monk with natural weapons cannot make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

This lets the old brass knuckles, the handwraps, and whatever other weapons the monk player wants to use be useable as a monk weapon with the appropriate investment.

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Is it so important to protect the distinction between hand-based unarmed attacks and hand-based natural attacks for the purpose of this item? Because that is metagaming. Why not have hand wraps that work on slam attacks too?

Because I believe the earlier concern was "I want a handwrap item that enhances unarmed strikes, but doesn't limit me to just punches."

So the goal is:

* An item that helps monks with unarmed strikes
* That wouldn't just limit the monk to punches
* That wouldn't be OP in the hands of a creature with multiple natural attacks
* That costs less than the amulet of mighty fists

And isn't just an amulet of mighty fists, with another name (that only costs less than the amulet of mighty fists).

Wait, so what you're asking for is a handwrap that just enhances attacks just from that hand?

I think we can do that.

It's going to need some specific language clarifying iterative attacks with that limb and that it doesn't affect unarmed strikes from other parts of the body. But I think it's doable.

I know it's cheesy to bring it up again but I can't edit my post on the utility belt and the Bandolier.

Instead of retrieving a potion (or any item) from the Belt or Bandolier, retrieving the item could be a move action that don't provoke AoO or as part of a move if your BAB is +1 or higher. If you have the quick draw feat retrieving an item is a free action (or swift action).

Wait, so what you're asking for is a handwrap that just enhances attacks just from that hand?

Yes. Otherwise it would just be a cheaper amulet of mighty fists with another name

Wait, so what you're asking for is a handwrap that just enhances attacks just from that hand?

I think we can do that.

It's going to need some specific language clarifying iterative attacks with that limb and that it doesn't affect unarmed strikes from other parts of the body. But I think it's doable.

I guess so, yeah.

They'd be good for beefing up zombies and the like, and not too silly looking in those cases. And therefore the monk PC might have cause to find enough of them to cover his whole flurry.

Of course, there could be a bunch of reasons that wouldn't work... That's just how I'd do it at my table, and my players are downright easy compared to the Pathfinder Public.

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Is it so important to protect the distinction between hand-based unarmed attacks and hand-based natural attacks for the purpose of this item? Because that is metagaming. Why not have hand wraps that work on slam attacks too?

Because I believe the earlier concern was "I want a handwrap item that enhances unarmed strikes, but doesn't limit me to just punches."

So the goal is:

* An item that helps monks with unarmed strikes
* That wouldn't just limit the monk to punches
* That wouldn't be OP in the hands of a creature with multiple natural attacks
* That costs less than the amulet of mighty fists

I am sure the others can correct me if I am wrong, but no, that is not what is being asked for. (Well, it's not what I am asking for, I know that much.) What the desire for handwraps boiled down to is "I want to be able to use something that can be enchanted like a weapon but uses my unarmed strike damage." I don't remember anyone asking about NOT being limited to punches.

Although yes, there IS a question that if a weapon enhances attacks made with your hands, what happens to unarmed strikes made with other body parts? But that's why you need to classify the item in question AS A WEAPON and attacks with them as WEAPON ATTACKS rather than unarmed strikes--you just put in the WEAPON's damage box "*as wielder's unarmed strike damage dice." In this case you'd be attacking with your weapons -- and sure, if you were capable, you could attack with unarmed strikes also with head, elbows, or feet, but they wouldn't be enhanced by the weapon's enhancements, because they have nothing to do with the WEAPONS you are wielding. Heck, you could wear a magic handwrap on one hand, and nothing on the other, and when you would flurry, the attack with your handwrap would be with your weapon and all its enhancements, and the attack with your empty fist would be an unarmed strike, with all its enhancements (or lack thereof).

The trap IMO with all these "fist weapons" is that they are treated as "modified unarmed strikes" when they shouldn't be--that's the part that's incongruous and weird and metagamey. It shouldn't modify unarmed strikes. It shouldn't do anything to unarmed strikes. Take the whole modified unarmed strike thing off the equipment table. They're weapons and should be treated as such. Just the way you determine the damage they deal is different from other weapons. That damage happens to equal your unarmed strike dice. That's all.

The general dilemma with monks is you have to choose between unarmed strikes, which (eventually) have superior damage dice, but you have trouble bypassing DR with them and it's harder to get enhancement bonuses to attacks; OR monk weapons, which can be easily enchanted and made out of special materials like adamantine, but have poor damage dice. And is there a good reason why the monk should have to choose?

That's why people liked the brass knuckles pre-errata. Because they could have, say, a +3 adamantine weapon that had good damage dice that they could flurry with. The other monk weapons don't get obsolete because most of them still also have special abilities like trip, or deal slashing or piercing damage, which still makes them as useful as they ever were.

(And the conversation went on as I wrote this but I think I still had a point in there somewhere...) (Edited for further details/clarification/inability to shut up.)