I've Come Full Circle!

One thing I want is this, I would love a mode or feature to Play Pathfinder RPG online as I would on the table top. So have a person running the game then have players running there characters. Have the capability to have characters, Npc's, armor and interactions with the world the GM has created ect. I know you can now do this with other software such as maptool but more easy and user friendly.

The trick with a system like that is that what the GM does will have an effect on the ENTIRE game--particularly if you can customize items and NPCs. It wouldn't (necessarily) be like Neverwinter used to be, where you could create an adventure, complete with all the trappings, and let players do whatever they like--and acquire whatever you wanted them to have. If you create a superpowerful weapon, for example, that becomes a permanent part of the game.

Obviously, though, City of Heroes/City of Villains eventually developed an in-game editor that allowed players to generate content, in much the way you're describing. The major differences, of course, are that they have a pretty finite list of what permanent items can be included, because, again, those find their way out to the rest of the game world and muddle the economy. That said, there are ways to handle doling out items that won't damage the game economy too badly (separate servers for "twinked" characters, for example, or making the items bind to the character on first use or upon arrival in the character's backpack). Even so, having a party of characters running around statted and outfitted to the max because of some Monty Haul GM is probably going to be a fairly large design challenge.

So, since we all /.ed ("Paizoed"? "Britta'd"?) the Goblinworks site...

Is there any serious interest at Goblinworks in also releasing an Android or iOS app/front end for this? Especially for the millions of 7"-10" tablets that'll be showing up for this holiday season this year and throughout 2012?

I am begging you PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE stay true to Pathfinder and don't go off on the stanard over inflated power curve like DDO did. In that game by the time you hit your mid-teens you are crafting what seem to be minor artifacts for armor/weapons. A level 20 tank in that game for any of the harder content better have an AC of at least the mid-70's and 700+ hit points (even a level 20 wizard needs 450+ hitpoints). I loved the lower end of the game but it just felt to MMOish as it went on.

Also I hope we see over land areas to explore and not just dungeons as the exploring part of the game is a huge thing to many people.

Is there any serious interest at Goblinnworks in also releasing an Android or iOS app/front end for this? Especially for the millions of 7"-10" tablets that'll be showing up under Christmas trees this year?

The normal game probably has interface and processing requirements that wouldn't work on such form factors... But I could easily see an interface into certain aspects of the game... Besides chat/forums and modifying character stats, or managing groups like Guilds, there could be 'marketplaces' for Crafting/Selling, and even extend to things like 'Espionage' or ' Diplomacy' that their website mentions.

So ... is there ever going to be a Pathfinder computer game? ;-)

Nice work guys, this looks cool. I might even have to start playing MMMMMMMPMMORPXGs.

Will 3rd party content, like Dreamscarred Press and their Psionics Unleahsed, become a part of the game eventually?

I was toying with the Beta tests of Star Wars: The Old Republic. I was getting very disappointed with it. Was not anything at all what I hoped it would be. I will be looking forward to this. Great work!

I'm not familiar with that game, but what's wrong with ghost towns? It seems ever cooler to me if they were the result of past players, having a boom town and moving onto other things... Of course, even better if real ghosts or nasties come to inhabit the town, or you can find remnants of the inhabitants to learn their identities, and possibly run into those same people in-game.

If they were presented the way you describe them, they'd be great. As it is, most games that allow player sandboxing of this type end up with enormous spans of nothing, broken up by clusters of terrain-defiling buildings that are not accessible to other players, cannot be interacted with, cannot be co-opted, nor used for any purpose other than as impediments to overland transport.

It would be great if PFO (or whatever acronym they settle on) didn't do this! Hence my request of deep-diving for research on what NOT to do.

A MMO I might leave Eve for. As long as I don't have to fuel my keep with foodstuffs!

Been waiting for a truly sandbox fantaasy game for years. I will try it like I have so many others. And the premise sounds very promising. Now if I only had $100k lying around.

Too bad there is not kickstart with $500 or $1k increments...

Wow, just wow! I was not expecting this.

All I have to say is MMORPGs are the toughest games to pull off well. I hope that you guys break the mold and do something really cool. Completely different than a pen and paper game, completely.

Here's hoping! Very cool news.

I honestly haven't played very many games in my life, and I really have only played one MMO game (A game called Skyrates. I helped develop the world a tiny bit, but left when it was clear the game wasn't going to progress much further. If anyone reading this knows the game, I was Nero Shade.)

The reason I don't play many computer games, and the top reason I don't play MMORPGs, is the time involved. I don't really have hours a day, or even hours a week, to play. I am a casual gamer, who so happens to spend 12 hours a week playing table top games on his days off.

My first question is: If I were to play this as a more casual gamer, would I still be able to play and enjoy it?

I ask because the few times I did try a MMO outside of Skyrates I felt left behind and even attacked. I found that my half-hour every other day spent trying to play either didn't progress me very far for me to really enjoy the game, or wasn't enough to keep my town/character/thing from being attacked and farmed.

I also am curious about how much of the rules from the table top Pathfinder game are going into the MMO Pathfinder. I doubt everything would work in an MMO, but could we expect to see the vast character options we find in Pathfinder? Will there be Combat Maneuvers? Is magic item creation going to be an option?

Lastly, when can expect the game? I personally think two or three years is reasonable, but I don't know for sure. I am not a game programmer or designer.

Thanks.

This is great news! MMOs haven't been my prefered style of gaming, but if one is done well, it would likely become one. (Still holding out for a turn based multiple PC party single player RPG, but I understand that's not likely to happen.) I'll be eagerly following this and playing once it's released. Hopefully, I'll play it for years rather than months, but I have far more faith in a Paizo/Pathfinder based MMO being what I'm looking for than any other that has ever been developed.

I've sent a message to the redaction of the french N°1 videogame website, jeuxvideo.com, to warn them about this, providing both a link to the blog post and to goblinworks's website.
It should provide some basis to further advertising, at least on the french public.

Well, well, well.

WELL, WELL, WELL.

I'm running out of holes in the ground with water in them after this revelation!

As a sucker for MMOs since 1999, I am both thrilled and horrified by this announcement, that will likely destroy my chances of not becoming a cloistered player once it comes out, should this particular paragraph come to fruition:

There will be an overarching storyline, and dungeons aplenty to explore, but where Pathfinder Online is going to thrive is in the ability of each of you to leave your mark on the world. Do you want to build a castle that you own and control? Go for it. Want to start a town and rally folks to your banner? Do that. Do you want to ally with the neighboring villages to form a new nation—or perhaps wage war on them instead? The choice is yours. Want to become the most feared bandit in the River Kingdoms? The path is available. Want to become the greatest armorer that Golarion has ever seen? All it takes is hard work.

TAKE ALL OF MY MONEY

As someone who doesn't play MMO's, I'm actually more interested in hearing the business and design decisions that go into this project than I am in getting the actual finished project:

Is PFO going to use a free-to-play business model with perks for subscribers?

Are subscribers to Paizo product lines going to get PFO perks?

Will there be PFO chronicle sheets for PFS play?

How closely will the PFO game and the PFRP game resemble one another?

Will PFO have virtual tabletop capabilities in addition to its MMO components?

Will the PFO character creator be able to generate PFRPG character sheets?

OMG o_O

"SIGH"

I guess I have to start saving my pennies to get a new system for this MMO. I will have time to save up though!

I wanted to get back into the Pencil, Paper, Imagination & Dice genre, but this MMO maybe my other addiction! (plays Simple Plan's: "I'm Addicted to You")

<Goes and ponders how Goblinworks will go about making this game>

OK I'll do a "small" dance of joy because of this...

<Looks around to make sure no one is looking...performs "Dance of Joy">

I am 100% mmo-burned out, so unless this is done in a very different way (especially actual gameplaywise), my interest will mostly be about looking at how it will be shaped.

Hoping the company do well though, in the hope it might make console games of some sort and/or PC singleplayer rpgs.

Personally, I'd be more interested a NWN-style game than an MMO. One with a much easier to use editor. I can't say that I hate MMOs, but I'd rather not pay more for a game than I need to.

Hey y'all:

Remember, we are REALLY EARLY in the process. We don't have many answers to your questions. Normally, we wouldn't even announce something like this as early as we have, except we knew that word would leak out. And we are always up front and straight with everybody about what we are doing. Give us a few months to get our funding, hire some folks and have some brainstorms. Then we can perhaps answer a few of your questions.

One thing I do want to make clear. Goblinworks won't have any negative impact on Paizo. Separate company. Separate staffs. Paizo is going to stay focused on what we do best which is making awesome pen and paper RPG products. Goblinworks will focus on the MMO. This is just like our relationship with Reaper or WizKids or any other licensor.

Now if this is successful, it will impact Paizo is a positive way, which is good. But we won't have a lot of skin in the game. Our money is going back into making awesome products for you guys.

I think you guys will be excited about Pathfinder Online. We have some really innovative things in mind. It will feel like Pathfinder.

But we aren't turning away from what got us here. Far from it!

-Lisa

As someone who doesn't play MMO's, I'm actually more interested in hearing the business and design decisions that go into this project than I am in getting the actual finished project:

Is PFO going to use a free-to-play business model with perks for subscribers?

Are subscribers to Paizo product lines going to get PFO perks?

Will there be PFO chronicle sheets for PFS play?

How closely will the PFO game and the PFRP game resemble one another?

Will PFO have virtual tabletop capabilities in addition to its MMO components?

Will the PFO character creator be able to generate PFRPG character sheets?

Many of your questions are answered (or obviated by) the FAQ.

One think you said in the Blog post is that you want Investors, But it just so happens that I don't have a spare $100,000 lying around. So would you guys be willing on starting a Kickstarter or something of the sort so most of us could pitch in? Like, If you donate this much you get a shirt, or Donate this much you get (blah) and so on? Like early access to the beta or special in game items?

Wow, just wow! I was not expecting this.

All I have to say is MMORPGs are the toughest games to pull off well. I hope that you guys break the mold and do something really cool. Completely different than a pen and paper game, completely.

Here's hoping! Very cool news.

We aren't going to follow the path others have trod. We will blaze new frontiers like true Pathfinders do. There will be innovation. There will be coolness. Can't wait!

-Lisa

Whoop Whoop!!!!!!!

Honestly my reaction is one of very heavy skepticism. What makes Pathfinder good is how well it works out for a tabletop game. I suppose it could also work in a CRPG (ala Neverwinter Nights). However, unless you are somehow going turn based/pause button, too much has to be modified/sacrificed to get it into MMO form. SO much in fact that it resembles the rule-set in only superficial ways. See DDO as a classic example of this.

Also, every MMO has started out with the exact same hype I am hearing here. How players are going to make a difference, shape the world, yadda, yadda. Heard it all before and nobody has really delivered that I know of. While I wish you success in this endeavor, until I hear how exactly you plan on achieving this, I'm keeping both feet firmly on the ground.

Wow. Just wow.

How is this awesome? Let me count the ways.

1) Pathfinder. 'nuff said.

2) The early descriptions indicate that Goblin Works will take the MMO space in interesting new directions which appeal to thoughtful players, not just level grinders. This is a big hole in the market, only addressed well by Eve at the moment.

3) Ryan Dancey is involved. Why is that a big deal? Ryan was the driving force behind the OGL and the former CMO of CCP/White Wolf, the makers of EVE and the forthcoming V:tM MMO. The man is a serious visionary in the space. He brings immediate credibility to a hobby games/MMO crossover product; the most since Bioware owned the D&D license.

4) Lisa. She is one smart cookie. She wouldn't be making this move if it wasn't well thought out.

So, color me excited.

DD

*raises hand for a beta key*

Honestly my reaction is one of very heavy skepticism. What makes Pathfinder good is how well it works out for a tabletop game. I suppose it could also work in a CRPG (ala Neverwinter Nights). However, unless you are somehow going turn based/pause button, too much has to be modified/sacrificed to get it into MMO form. SO much in fact that it resembles the rule-set in only superficial ways. See DDO as a classic example of this.

Also, every MMO has started out with the exact same hype I am hearing here. How players are going to make a difference, shape the world, yadda, yadda. Heard it all before and nobody has really delivered that I know of. While I wish you success in this endeavor, until I hear how exactly you plan on achieving this, I'm keeping both feet firmly on the ground.

That was my exact reaction when first approached about this. I've since changed my opinion. But I realize that MMOs aren't for everyone. Pathfinder will still be here to satisfy those folks who like to game the way we always have. I know that I will be doing both.

-Lisa

Oh, I don't know why I didn't ask in my last post...

Any particular reason you wanted to do an MMO and not a single player game?

Wow. Just wow.

How is this awesome? Let me count the ways.

1) Pathfinder. 'nuff said.

2) The early descriptions indicate that Goblin Works will take the MMO space in interesting new directions which appeal to thoughtful players, not just level grinders. This is a big hole in the market, only addressed well by Eve at the moment.

3) Ryan Dancey is involved. Why is that a big deal? Ryan was the driving force behind the OGL and the former CMO of CCP/White Wolf, the makers of EVE and the forthcoming V;tM MMO. The man is a serious visionary in the space. He brings immediate credibility to a hobby games/MMO crossover product; the most since Bioware owned the D&D license.

4) Lisa. She is one smart cookie. She wouldn't be making this move if it wasn't well thought out.

So, color me excited.

DD

*raises hand for a beta key*

Thanks Doug! Thanks for the faith. We won't let you down!

-Lisa

Hey y'all:

...

I think you guys will be excited about Pathfinder Online. We have some really innovative things in mind. It will feel like Pathfinder.

...

-Lisa

This was predicted in years past...

"Special Abilities

Create Company (Su): With this ability, Lisa can create companies at the blink of an eye. Each company created has the ability once every five years to create a gaming phenomenon as a free action"

From Lisa's profile here:

http://paizo.com/people/LisaStevens

One think you said in the Blog post is that you want Investors, But it just so happens that I don't have a spare $100,000 lying around. So would you guys be willing on starting a Kickstarter or something of the sort so most of us could pitch in? Like, If you donate this much you get a shirt, or Donate this much you get (blah) and so on? Like early access to the beta or special in game items?

I'm not in the market for this type of thing, but honestly that seems like something that could be best pursued by starting an independent investment entity which is owned by Paizo fans who pitch in sub-100k amounts... Possibly even before 100k is reached it would make sense to start talking with Paizo if they would be amenable to this group investing (if you reach 100k). If they don't like the idea of a bunch of PRPG fans invested via such a vehicle, all the money would be released to everybody (or more likely, it was just in escrow until it was clear whether the investment could go thru).

Hooray for the shout-out to Appleton, Wisconsin!

Wait, what? I missed the point of the blog post? Really?!?

Sweet I can't wait.

Good luck Paizo.

I have never been big on MMORPGs. My coordination, or lack there of, usually causes me great frustrations. But I really liked games like Baldur's Gate and the computer version of TOEE (without bugs). If this could be designed in way to have the feel of playing Pathfinder, then this could be very cool. A virtual DM with all of us getting together when we feel like it to adventure either by our self or with friends or strangers in a virtual Golarion would be awesome.

You know my characters starts out at this Swallowtail Festival in Sandpoint, and the next thing you know these little green things are running around burning things. Now if it starts like this, then this could really pique my interest. I have DMed over a dozen 1st level adventures, and I can't thing of one better than Burnt Offerings. So if this kind of story is built into the MMORPG, then sign me up!

Later,

Mazra

Oh, I don't know why I didn't ask in my last post...

Any particular reason you wanted to do an MMO and not a single player game?

As I have said numerous times in the past, when it comes to the video and computer game markets, it all comes down to who comes to us with an idea. Ryan came asking about doing an MMO. If he would have came asking about a single player game, we probably would be announcing that instead today. Doing an MMO doesn't rule out doing a single player game also. It is just that nobody has come knocking on our door asking to do one.

-Lisa

Does this mean we won't get a Pathfinder single player video game for the PS3 that will allow for the creation of 4 party members to have adventures in the world of Golarion? Hell, I would have even settled for a PC game of Pathfinder...but an online MMO? This just isn't what I was hoping for.

I hate to be a downer but I agree, while this announcement is exciting and would be interesting to play, I take this announcement with great skepticism.

I've been a senior programmer in the video games industry for many years, and shipped many titles on a multitude of platforms and MMO's are by far the most expensive, and difficult to build and maintain.

This is a new development company, (I've certainly never heard of goblinworks) Without an engine, and a huge staff of experienced MMO designers/engineers/producers, and artists this will never come to fruition. The costs are going to be staggering.

The goblinworks website is crawling already because of the traffic :-)

The choice of the River Kingdoms as the setting is interesting. It permits the injection sandbox elements that might distinguish the game from the other MMOs out there. I suppose that a lot will depend upon how well the implementation is done - nobody has done a sandbox-style MMO well yet!

I wonder if the new game will generate any pen-and-paper tie-in products?

MRblahface wrote:

One think you said in the Blog post is that you want Investors, But it just so happens that I don't have a spare $100,000 lying around. So would you guys be willing on starting a Kickstarter or something of the sort so most of us could pitch in? Like, If you donate this much you get a shirt, or Donate this much you get (blah) and so on? Like early access to the beta or special in game items?

I'm not in the market for this type of thing, but honestly that seems like something that could be best pursued by starting an independent investment entity which is owned by Paizo fans who pitch in sub-100k amounts... Possibly even before 100k is reached it would make sense to start talking with Paizo if they would be amenable to this group investing (if you reach 100k). If they don't like the idea of a bunch of PRPG fans invested via such a vehicle, all the money would be released to everybody (or more likely, it was just in escrow until it was clear whether the investment could go thru).

We intend to keep the number of shareholders fairly limited, as that makes a lot of things much easier.

However, we *do* have ideas that line up nicely with MRblahface's desires... but you probably won't hear more about that until early next year.

One think you said in the Blog post is that you want Investors, But it just so happens that I don't have a spare $100,000 lying around. So would you guys be willing on starting a Kickstarter or something of the sort so most of us could pitch in? Like, If you donate this much you get a shirt, or Donate this much you get (blah) and so on? Like early access to the beta or special in game items?

+1

I like kickstart. After Paizo, it is the largest eater of my etra cash.

Wait, your asking US to invest in this IDEA of yours? Isn't that a bit pretentious? I mean, asking the consumer to invest in an idea that they'll ultimately have to purchase anyways in order to play? It's like saying we want you to fund the production of OUR PRODUCT so that you can eventually spend even MORE MONEY to BUY the product we're having you FUND. Am I wrong on this? I sure as hell hope I am.

This was predicted in years past...

"Special Abilities

Create Company (Su): With this ability, Lisa can create companies at the blink of an eye. Each company created has the ability once every five years to create a gaming phenomenon as a free action"

From Lisa's profile here:

http://paizo.com/people/LisaStevens

It has been five years since the Pathfinder RPG, hasn't it? :)

-Lisa

While about the last thing I want is another fantasy MMO, I'm excited for you all nonetheless. It's a huge deal and I hope it's insanely successful!

Wait, your asking US to invest in this IDEA of yours? Isn't that a bit pretentious? I mean, asking the consumer to invest in an idea that they'll ultimately have to purchase anyways in order to play? It's like saying we want you to fund the production of OUR PRODUCT so that you can eventually spend even MORE MONEY to BUY the product we're having you FUND. Am I wrong on this? I sure as hell hope I am.

Nobody is asking anybody to invest in Pathfinder Online. Unless they want to.

-Lisa

Oguleth wrote:

Oh, I don't know why I didn't ask in my last post...

Any particular reason you wanted to do an MMO and not a single player game?

As I have said numerous times in the past, when it comes to the video and computer game markets, it all comes down to who comes to us with an idea. Ryan came asking about doing an MMO. If he would have came asking about a single player game, we probably would be announcing that instead today. Doing an MMO doesn't rule out doing a single player game also. It is just that nobody has come knocking on our door asking to do one.

-Lisa

I'd also like to point out that while some are saying "single-player," others may be thinking "direct adaptation of the Pathfinder RPG," and that's legally kind of tricky.

Ambrosia wrote:

Is there any serious interest at Goblinnworks in also releasing an Android or iOS app/front end for this? Especially for the millions of 7"-10" tablets that'll be showing up under Christmas trees this year?

The normal game probably has interface and processing requirements that wouldn't work on such form factors... But I could easily see an interface into certain aspects of the game...

I dunno. I can't speak for the Apple side, but the new quad-core Tegra 3 processor from Nvidia is nothing to sneeze at... and it'll be hitting the shelves in Asus' Transformer 2/Transformer Prime 10" tablet next month (in the US).

I hope they keep the same leveling/ XP system as the tabletop game. DnD online totally changed the leveling system. IMO it was a good game. But if you change something that is such a core part of the system, it can't be called DnD.

Same with this Pathfinder MMO. If you change the system too much, its no longer Pathfinder.

Also please keep the monthly fee and don't go free to play with micro transactions.

If there is one thing that DDO should have taught us, it is that you can't do a faithful d20 - MMO conversion. You have to go for the flavor.

And the Goblin Works FAQ indicates that this will also be different.

I for one think that is a wise decision.

We intend to keep the number of shareholders fairly limited, as that makes a lot of things much easier.

Understood, but I was suggesting they start an investment company which would be a singular entity with one representative you deal with, not much different than other venture capital companies which have multiple investors they eventually cut checks to from their profits. I can see even that may not be what you want, given the skewing of interest being owned by 'fans' and just meeting the minimum 100k level may not be that enticing in itself if other bigger investors are already committed or they aiming to find agreement with (I could see such a fan investment vehicle being a negative from the viewpoint of those investors).

This is a new development company, (I've certainly never heard of goblinworks) Without an engine, and a huge staff of experienced MMO designers/engineers/producers, and artists this will never come to fruition. The costs are going to be staggering.

Yeah, they are explicitly announcing it as a new development company. They have an engine, though we only know it runs on Windows and has plans for an OSX port in the future. I assume the costs of development staff are why they are asking for big bucks investors. So it seems like any similar project at the stage before they have big buck investors, presumably they already have some but are looking for more.

Wait, your asking US to invest in this IDEA of yours? Isn't that a bit pretentious? I mean, asking the consumer to invest in an idea that they'll ultimately have to purchase anyways in order to play? It's like saying we want you to fund the production of OUR PRODUCT so that you can eventually spend even MORE MONEY to BUY the product we're having you FUND. Am I wrong on this? I sure as hell hope I am.

Do you have a few spare 100k chunks of cash you are looking to invest in any VC project? If not, they aren't asking you. Tons of projects in fact start out like this, it just happens that you are given a window into this process because Paizo has chosen to announce it on their main web site. They aren't interested in each and every fan giving them cash, they are interested in big bucks, which even if you are a fan, you are probably investing with view to actual cash flow returns.

Antony Walls wrote:

This was predicted in years past...

"Special Abilities

Create Company (Su): With this ability, Lisa can create companies at the blink of an eye. Each company created has the ability once every five years to create a gaming phenomenon as a free action"

From Lisa's profile here:

http://paizo.com/people/LisaStevens

It has been five years since the Pathfinder RPG, hasn't it? :)

-Lisa

And this shall be written here and today that the big announce that will be made on 11/23/2016, namely the new Pathfinder Brain Matrix Module to live the game like never before thanks to hallucination-inducing electrodes tricking the brain into living in a fictional universe, was predicted by myself.

I'm excited but I have several concerns.

• Cannibalisation of tabletop players.
  
• Development tensions starting between the tabletop and online versions.
  
• If characters from one will be transferrable to the other.
  
• My wife leaving me when it takes up all my time.
  
• Not being able to play any more when I've run out of money.
  
• Contagion spreading from the debt crisis in France to the US, tanking the economy and stopping development.
  
• An asteroid hitting the Earth and stopping me from playing until we can construct subterranean cities.

Vic Wertz wrote:

We intend to keep the number of shareholders fairly limited, as that makes a lot of things much easier.

Understood, but I was suggesting they start an investment company which would be a singular entity with one representative you deal with, not much different than other venture capital companies which have multiple investors they eventually cut checks to from their profits. I can see even that may not be what you want, given the skewing of interest being owned by 'fans' and just meeting your minimum 100k level may not be that enticing in itself.

Ah. We might be amenable to that, and if somebody gets serious about organizing that, by all means drop an email to investors@goblinworks.com... but I kind of hope that by the time somebody would be able to line all of that up, we'll already have all the investors we're looking for!