Ultimate Magic: Witches and Wizards

My what big teeth you have ...

I thought we were getting Magus Archetypes this week?

A healing patron! Finally! :D
Thanks, Paizo! I'd buy the Book for this Patron alone! Can't wait to see what the new spells do.

Thanks again! I mean it! :)

Edit after initial excitement: Ok, remove disease is already on the witch's 3rd level spell list anyway. But the restoration spells alone are totally worth it. Finally a witch can be a main healer for a group.

They not showing Magus Archetypes this week - because the previews are being cut short because Ultimate Magic will release SOONER!!

Right? Right?!

A healing patron, awesome, and a winter one as well, of course the winter one was a given but cool all the same.

Yeah I thought that there was going to be stuff about the Magus this week, oh well, I can wait.

I wish that was reason LoreKeeper.

How many Sorcerer bloodlines/Oracle Mysteries are there going to be in this book? More/less/equal too the amount in the APG?

Oh yeah the arcane mysteries look awesome, are they for wizards only?

Arcane discovries looks interresting.

Arcane discoveries look interesting.

Great minds think alike.

I was eagerly anticipating the promised Magus archetypes and now I'm SAD : ( Bah witches Bah! I'm not playing a witch! But Arcane Discoveries do look cool!

Finally I can play my hedge wizard!

*ducks*

I'm seeing wizard specific feats.

Single * UM spell, double * APG?

Single * UM spell, double * APG?

ps: Polar Midnight? that sounds like a spell good for Wizard / Vampires and generally dark loving folks

Sorry about the mix up folks. We shuffled the order a bit on the previews. Look for some Magus info coming next week.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Who are arcane discoveries going to be available to? Would an alchemist be able to take Multimorph?

Edit: I suspect the word phrase "Arcane" in there is a tell but I'm holding out a little hope ;)

Hurray a hedgehog familiar and a Hedge Witch archetype! My wife will be so happy to get this book (she plays a gnome hedge witch with a hedgehog familiar)

Interesting, the hedgehog has no offensive attack. Not even a bite for 1 point of damage. I wonder if it's a typo, or intended that way? I don't know if I've ever seen an animal without some type of natural attack. Runs to his collection of bestiary/monster manuals and furiously thumbs through pages

Sorry about the mix up folks. We shuffled the order a bit on the previews. Look for some Magus info coming next week.

JAAAASSOOONNN!!!

*raises and shakes fist*

Like the idea of the Arcane Discoveries.

Who are arcane discoveries going to be available to? Would an alchemist be able to take Multimorph?

Edit: I suspect the word phrase "Arcane" in there is a tell but I'm holding out a little hope ;)

It says up in the body that they are taken in lieu of the wizard bonus feats at levels 5/10/15/20.

All looks n sounds awesome! Lookin forward to the new cold spells, my necromancer will apperciate them.

Arcane Discoveries sound fun too!

Healing: 2nd—remove fear, 4th—lesser restoration, 6th—remove disease, 8th—restoration, 10th—cleanse**, 12th—pillar of life**, 14th—greater restoration, 16th—mass cure critical wounds, 18th—true resurrection.

Come to think of it, didn't you remove phantasmal killer as 4th level spell on the trickery patron? I figured it was because the witch got that spell on this level anyway. So is it intended that the healing patron gets remove diseae as 3rd level spell - just like any other witch? I understand Mass Cure Critical as it comes a level sooner than normal, but this...?

Any chance that this gets changed? Maybe to Cure Serious early or Sacred Bond? I think those are the only 3rd level healing spells a witch doesn't get anyway.

0gre wrote:

Who are arcane discoveries going to be available to? Would an alchemist be able to take Multimorph?

Edit: I suspect the word phrase "Arcane" in there is a tell but I'm holding out a little hope ;)

It says up in the body that they are taken in lieu of the wizard bonus feats at levels 5/10/15/20.

Let me correct myself,

A wizard can learn an arcane discovery in place of a regular feat or wizard bonus feat.

So they are, in effect, wizard only feats if that wording is literal.

MAYBE you would let an arcane bloodline sorcerer have them?

Hurray a hedgehog familiar and a Hedge Witch archetype! My wife will be so happy to get this book (she plays a gnome hedge witch with a hedgehog familiar)

Interesting, the hedgehog has no offensive attack. Not even a bite for 1 point of damage. I wonder if it's a typo, or intended that way? I don't know if I've ever seen an animal without some type of natural attack. Runs to his collection of bestiary/monster manuals and furiously thumbs through pages

Um...have you ever seen or held a hedgehog? there's no offensive attack because they can't attack you. At best you might take an 1/8th of a point of gumming damage.

Um...have you ever seen or held a hedgehog? there's no offensive attack because they can't attack you. At best you might take an 1/8th of a point of gumming damage.

Hahaha! This made me lol.

Quote:

A wizard can learn an arcane discovery in place of a regular feat or wizard bonus feat.

So they are, in effect, wizard only feats if that wording is literal.

MAYBE you would let an arcane bloodline sorcerer have them?

Yeah... I'm hoping they aren't limited to wizard only.

Why +2 to Will saves for a hedgehog? I mean, yes, it is a void in the familiar bonus list, but still, why not, since it can't even attack (and thus could, by some GMs, be considered to be unable to deliver touch spells), grant its master a +1 to natural AC. Yes, that's a powerful bonus to grant, but why not when the familiar itself is so relatively weak?

Galnörag wrote:

Single * UM spell, double * APG?

ps: Polar Midnight? that sounds like a spell good for Wizard / Vampires and generally dark loving folks

Polar Midnight also sounds like a good name for a rockband.

Kassegore wrote:

Hurray a hedgehog familiar and a Hedge Witch archetype! My wife will be so happy to get this book (she plays a gnome hedge witch with a hedgehog familiar)

Interesting, the hedgehog has no offensive attack. Not even a bite for 1 point of damage. I wonder if it's a typo, or intended that way? I don't know if I've ever seen an animal without some type of natural attack. Runs to his collection of bestiary/monster manuals and furiously thumbs through pages

Um...have you ever seen or held a hedgehog? there's no offensive attack because they can't attack you. At best you might take an 1/8th of a point of gumming damage.

Oh I'd agree with you on that, but since when was D&D based on logic?

Anyhow I looked through the list of other diminutive animals, and yes, there are a few without a listed natural attack (I'm looking at you toad!). Works for me.

Great minds think alike.

Only one correct grammar can survive!

That's some nasty gums then, at least the ones we have here are known to kill and eat the occasional viper.

Flynn Alfe wrote:

Great minds think alike.

Only one correct grammar can survive!

I knew there was something wrong with my "discov[e]ries" :D

How many Sorcerer bloodlines/Oracle Mysteries are there going to be in this book? More/less/equal too the amount in the APG?

More oracle mysteries might be helpful since there are only a handful thus far, but please no more Sorcerer Bloodlines! Sorcerers need something new besides additonal bloodlines cause if you're already playing a sorcerer you've got your bloodline and can't benefit no matter how many new ones are published. Sorcerers need alternate class features to complement their bloodlines!!![/rant]

Oh yeah the arcane mysteries look awesome, are they for wizards only?

I sure hope not. Please Paizo, throw Sorcerers a bone!

That's some nasty gums then

Mark my words, Gummy Bears™ aren't as nice and harmless as Disney would have you believe.

Dinnsdale!!!!!!

I'll just add very cool. Especially the discoveries look cool.

A healing patron! Finally! :D

Thanks, Paizo! I'd buy the Book for this Patron alone! Can't wait to see what the new spells do.

Thanks again! I mean it! :)

Edit after initial excitement: Ok, remove disease is already on the witch's 3rd level spell list anyway. But the restoration spells alone are totally worth it. Finally a witch can be a main healer for a group.

I like a healing patron too. But I'm not to impressed by by the spell list.

Pillar of Life suck as a spell (I don't get the point of it). I rather take Breath of Life any day, and as you pointed out, remove disease is already on the witch's spell list.
True resurrection? If you need iy you visit a cleric.

Aaron Scott 139 wrote:

Um...have you ever seen or held a hedgehog? there's no offensive attack because they can't attack you. At best you might take an 1/8th of a point of gumming damage.

After doing some research on the mighty hedgehog I have found that a hedgehog does indeed possess sharp teeth and some large species will eat the occasional snake. keep in mind these are very small snakes. The primary threat to humans comes in the form of pet allergies. So I propose that instead of a bite attack they instead get a 1 square aoe attack of a mild allergic reaction on 1 in every 5,682 creatures you encounter.

I like a healing patron too. But I'm not to impressed by by the spell list.

Yeah, Pillar of Life seems a bit pointless unless you want to heal a VERY big group of people. If not, Mass Cure Light is probably better. I'd like getting Heal at level 6 but that's probably too much to ask for. Breath of Life instead of Cleanse (or even instead of Pillar as you suggested) would be great, too. But then the Patron might become too good.

Anyway, finally having access to all three restoration spells is the real beauty of the patron. With no other Healer in the party, those are a BIG deal if you are in the middle of nowhere and your Fighter gets his Con drained to 3.

As for True Ressurection: Well, unless there are new and better grand hexes in UM, I'd take the Life Giver hex at 18 anyway. But since most characters never reach such a level, I don't mind.

But I'm still curious about Remove Disease... Paizo guys? Anyone there? ^^

What's with the Hedgehog not having a faster speed, nor any mention of the ability to bust through walls. Heck not even its love of gold rings and emeralds is in the description. ;)

ShaneG.

That's a very cool and evocative piece of artwork. But holy moly; that's a big fox. Maybe it's actually a maned wolf?

Fast Study is incredibly powerful. I'm not sure how many wizards will pass it up. Being able to leave spell slots open and pull out anything in just a minute is huge.

Edit: On second reflection, Multimorph is also potentially huge. If the other discoveries are going to be along these lines, I think the gap between wizards and sorcerers is about to get a lot, lot wider. As will the gap between wizards and, well, almost anyone.

Edit 2: The more I think about it the more I'm sure that I'd ban Fast Study and give hard thought at banning Multimorph. Hopefully this isn't a sign of more to come.

What makes an Arcane Discovery different than a feat? Why not just make them feats?
We already have Teamwork feats & combat feats so why not Arcane feats? It seems like just a new name for an arcane class feat why the new name?
Am I missing somthing?

What makes an Arcane Discovery different than a feat? Why not just make them feats?

We already have Teamwork feats & combat feats so why not Arcane feats? It seems like just a new name for an arcane class feat why the new name?
Am I missing somthing?

+1 - why keep reinventing the wheel? Just make them feats.

Perhaps there are special mechanics that set them apart from feats.

Fast Study is incredibly powerful. I'm not sure how many wizards will pass it up. Being able to leave spell slots open and pull out anything in just a minute is huge.

Edit: On second reflection, Multimorph is also potentially huge. If the other discoveries are going to be along these lines, I think the gap between wizards and sorcerers is about to get a lot, lot wider. As will the gap between wizards and, well, almost anyone.

Edit 2: The more I think about it the more I'm sure that I'd ban Fast Study and give hard thought at banning Multimorph. Hopefully this isn't a sign of more to come.

Unless I'm missing something a wizard without this ability can do what you're talking about in fifteen minutes...with the ability in one minute. I don't see that difference as huge, but bear in mind, as a GM I would rule that a wizard leaning up against the dungeon wall in the middle of combat to take a minute and study his spell book would very very likely be wasting his time (as in, make a concentration check, DC 20 plus double the spell level). Am I missing something?

Professor you shouldn't look at the magecraft amulet then.

Quote:

Healing: 2nd—remove fear, 4th—lesser restoration, 6th—remove disease, 8th—restoration, 10th—cleanse**, 12th—pillar of life**, 14th—greater restoration, 16th—mass cure critical wounds, 18th—true resurrection.

Come to think of it, didn't you remove phantasmal killer as 4th level spell on the trickery patron? I figured it was because the witch got that spell on this level anyway. So is it intended that the healing patron gets remove diseae as 3rd level spell - just like any other witch? I understand Mass Cure Critical as it comes a level sooner than normal, but this...?

Any chance that this gets changed? Maybe to Cure Serious early or Sacred Bond? I think those are the only 3rd level healing spells a witch doesn't get anyway.

Being on the Patron spell list means the witch automatically learns it without investing other resources to learning the spell.

Also, I believe that it is quite unlikely for this to get changed because the book has already been sent to the printer.

The more I see, the more I want...

Do the Paizo powers-that-be know if this is supposed to ship out with the next Adventure Path volume (Broken Moon)? Because if not, I'll change my subscription so that my stuff ships separately when it's available. I will gladly pay a few extra bucks in shipping.

The more I see, the more I want...

Do the Paizo powers-that-be know if this is supposed to ship out with the next Adventure Path volume (Broken Moon)? Because if not, I'll change my subscription so that my stuff ships separately when it's available. I will gladly pay a few extra bucks in shipping.

In the past we have tried to ship as many subscription items together as possible, so I'm fairly certain that will be the case with Ultimate Magic.

What makes an Arcane Discovery different than a feat? Why not just make them feats?

We already have Teamwork feats & combat feats so why not Arcane feats? It seems like just a new name for an arcane class feat why the new name?
Am I missing somthing?

If the were just arcane feats characters would be able to pick them at a increased pace and not have to really debate which arcane discovery to get because they can just get what they want easily. With arcane discoveries a wizard would get to choose only four at most (in addition to other options they have), but as feats they would be able to get about twelve chances to get one of these discoveries (which may push them from being rare to common).

ProfessorCirno wrote:

Fast Study is incredibly powerful. I'm not sure how many wizards will pass it up. Being able to leave spell slots open and pull out anything in just a minute is huge.

Edit: On second reflection, Multimorph is also potentially huge. If the other discoveries are going to be along these lines, I think the gap between wizards and sorcerers is about to get a lot, lot wider. As will the gap between wizards and, well, almost anyone.

Edit 2: The more I think about it the more I'm sure that I'd ban Fast Study and give hard thought at banning Multimorph. Hopefully this isn't a sign of more to come.

Unless I'm missing something a wizard without this ability can do what you're talking about in fifteen minutes...with the ability in one minute. I don't see that difference as huge, but bear in mind, as a GM I would rule that a wizard leaning up against the dungeon wall in the middle of combat to take a minute and study his spell book would very very likely be wasting his time (as in, make a concentration check, DC 20 plus double the spell level). Am I missing something?

I'm not quite sure how "wasting his time" would turn into a gigantic concentration check like that, but keep in mind, that's your houserule.

Previously, the ability to leave spell slots open and substitute spells as needed throughout the day was an incredibly potent ability that was limited almost only by the fifteen minutes. It's one of the things that made wizards so much better then sorcerers were - the utility of a sorcerer with the vast spells known of a wizard. The only "balancing" aspect was the length of time.

In essence, a wizard can fill a good number of spell slots with combat spells (remember, wizards - especially specialists - get a lot of spell slots) and leave the rest for utility. These utility spells can be taken out and cast in just a minute. In other words, a wizard needs only one minute to cast almost any spell he knows.

Professor you shouldn't look at the magecraft amulet then.

That item has a lot more limitations, and drawbacks such as "Have to be a universalist." This single feat - and wizards have plenty to spare - allows them to pull out virtually any spell in just a minute.

Galnörag wrote:

0gre wrote:

Who are arcane discoveries going to be available to? Would an alchemist be able to take Multimorph?

Edit: I suspect the word phrase "Arcane" in there is a tell but I'm holding out a little hope ;)

It says up in the body that they are taken in lieu of the wizard bonus feats at levels 5/10/15/20.

Let me correct myself,

Quote:

A wizard can learn an arcane discovery in place of a regular feat or wizard bonus feat.

So they are, in effect, wizard only feats if that wording is literal.

MAYBE you would let an arcane bloodline sorcerer have them?

I imagine the reason they are called arcane discoveries is that they are the product of personal research. So yeah, keep your grubby, unlearned sorcerous hands off of these! :)