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I Drank What? An FAQ on Poison

Tuesday, March 22, 2011

For quite a while now there has been a bit of confusion on how poison is applied in the Pathfinder RPG. While the application of a single dose is simple enough, the rules allow for the stacking of poisons that causes them to combine into a more powerful effect. There are, unfortunately, some timing issues with these rules that can make poisons a bit tricky to adjudicate during play. Since this issue is a bit more complex than your average FAQ issue, the design team thought it would be a good idea to take a more in depth look at the issue here.

Poisons fall under the category of afflictions. They each have a save, a frequency, an effect, and a cure. At the most simple level, this means that when a character comes into contact with the poison, she gets a save. If the save succeeds, the poison has no effect, regardless of the cure entry. If the saving throw is failed, the character takes the effect and must continue to makes saves, dictated by the frequency, or continue to take the effect with each failed save. The only way to be free of the poison at this point is to meet the conditions of the cure entry, usually one or more successful saving throws (usually consecutively if more than one).

When a character is subject to more than 1 dose of the same poison, things get interesting. Each dose increases the DC by +2 and increases the total duration listed in the frequency by half of the original duration. Due to timing, however, this can make for a rather confusing situation. When does the DC increase apply? When are the saving throws made? When is the duration increased? To keep things simple, use the following guidelines.

1. Whenever a character is exposed to a poison (regardless of method), that character gets a saving throw to negate the poison.
2. The saving throw DC is increased by +2 for every active dose currently affecting the character. Poisons that were cured, have run through their entire frequency, or were negated with a successful initial saving throw do not increase the DC.
3. The character must make a saving throw against every poison affecting him on his turn, but may make the saving throw at any point during his turn. If a poisoned character delays his turn, he must immediately make these saving throws. They are not delayed.
4. Unless the poison has an onset time, the character takes the effect of the poison every time he fails a saving throw against the poison, even when additional doses are inflicted.
5. The total duration of the poison listed in the frequency only increases by half the original duration and only when the initial saving throw against a dose is failed. If the initial saving throw is made, the duration is not increased.
6. If a character is exposed to multiple doses of inhaled and ingested poisons simultaneously, only one save is made at the higher DC. If the save fails, the character is subject to all of the doses, but still only takes the effect once for the failed saving throw. If the save succeeds, the character avoids all of the doses.
7. Finally, if the character is exposed to a poison that is similar, but not the same, such as having a slightly different frequency or DC, it is treated as a different affliction that is tracked separately, even if it has the same name or other identical entries.

So, keeping these rules in mind, let's take a look at a few scenarios using poison and how they are resolved. In all cases, the character is exposed to greenblood oil, an injury poison, with a DC of 13, a frequency of 1/round for 4 rounds, an effect of 1 Con damage, and a cure entry of 1 save.

Scenario A: Valeros is hit by an arrow coated in greenblood oil. He fails the DC 13 Fort save and takes 1 point of Con damage. At the end of his turn, he fails a saving throw against the poison and takes 1 more point of Con damage. Before his second turn, he gets hit again and must attempt a DC 15 Fort save (because 1 dose is already affecting him). He fails this save as well, which deals another point of Con damage, increases the save DC he must make each round to 15, and extends the total duration by 2 rounds.

Scenario B: Valeros is hit by a pair of arrows coated in greenblood oil, during the turn of one enemy archer. He fails the first DC 13 Fort save and takes 1 point of Con damage. He then must make a DC 15 Fort save for the second arrow. He makes this save and suffers no ill effect. On his turn, he must make a DC 13 For save (since only 1 dose of the poison is in effect). He makes this save and takes no damage, as the poison ends. If he is hit again on the next turn, his save would reset to DC 13.

Scenario C: Valeros is hit by a pair of arrows coated in greenblood oil. He fails the DC 13 Fort save and takes 1 point of Con damage. He then must make a DC 15 Fort save for the second arrow. He fails this save and takes 1 point of Con damage. On his turn, he must make another DC 15 Fort save, which he fails, causing him to take yet another point of Con damage. On the next turn, the archer fires an arrow coated in special greenblood oil poison, with a DC of 20. It hits poor Valeros, who fails the save and now must track the two poisons separately (since they are not identical). To add to his misery, another arrow coated in ordinary greenblood oil poison hits him as well, forcing him to make a DC 17 Fortitude save, which he also fails, increasing the total duration to 8 rounds (1 of which has passed). Valeros is in trouble.

As you can see, poison is a deadly business. Monsters that can use injury poison, such as spiders and centipedes, should not be taken lightly. Best to stock up on a scroll or two of neutralize poison, or better yet, a wand.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

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Is it possible to suffer from multiple doses of contact poison simultaneously? Say a poisoned door knob has 3 doses of black lotus extract, for example. Does someone opening the door make 3 saves with increasing difficulty, a single save with a high DC, or only one save against the standard DC (with the incompetent poisoner wasting two doses on his trap)?

If this does work (in whatever fashion), could a potential assassin walk around with a poison proof glove containing 10 doses of black lotus extract and essentially auto kill the next person dumb enough to shake his dripping hand? What if the assassin attacked a known enemy who was aware of the glove? Could the assassin deliver multiple doses at once in this fashion?

Osirion

I always love your comments dork....

I believe you truly are a little devious in both your characters and gming. You always seem to put an evil twist on things.


Blazej wrote:
I had always been a bit confused by the Green Prismatic Poison. With an initial effect of death, I've never been sure when the secondary effect and saves to cure would actually come into play.

I was about to mention that. Thanks BlazeJ.


Ravingdork wrote:

Say a particularly potent poison has 3 saves before it can be overcome/cured.

Which specific saves count towards that? I don't think the initial save does, because if you make that the poison goes away. You were pretty clear in that the second save at the end of an onset period counts towards the cure. I assume the saves against poison made on your turn all count towards the cure.

But what if I got hit with multiple doses of the poison? Do the initial saves (the ones that could throw off the new dose entirely) count towards curing of prior doses if I make them? Which of the below is correct?

Scenario 1: Poor Valeros is hit by both of a Tarn Linnorm's poisonous bite attacks. He fails his first save (base DC 32) but passes the second. He takes 6d6d acid damage and 1d8 Con drain from having failed the first save. His second save, however, counts as one of his three successes needed to cure ALL the poison in his system. On his turn, he passes his save with a natural 20, getting him 2/3 of the way to being cured. On the Tarn's next turn, it bites twice more, with Valeros failing both saves and taking the poison's effect twice (12d6 acid damage and 2d8 Con drain). This also raises the DC to 36 and increases the duration from 10 rounds to 20 rounds, but since one round is already passed, he has 19 rounds to go. Valeros is in trouble. On Valeros' second turn, he rolls his save against DC 36 and fails, but opts to use his Improved Great Fortitude feat to reroll, and passes. Valeros is now cured of all the poison in his system and is far more wary of the Linnorm's dangerous bite attacks.

Scenario 2: Poor Valeros is hit by both of a Tarn Linnorm's poisonous bite attacks. He fails his first save (base DC 32) but passes the second (DC 34). He takes 6d6d acid damage and 1d8 Con drain from having failed the first save. On his turn, he passes his save with a natural 20, getting him 1/3 of the way to being cured. On the Tarn's next turn, it bites twice more, with Valeros failing both saves and taking the...

The way I understand it is that if you get bitten again and fail the you have to start over with your saves.

Let's say there is a poison that last for 8 rounds or until you make 3 saves.
You make the fail on round 1 meaning you are afflicted
On round 2 you make the save so you still have 2 more save to go.
Round 3 you make another save so you only have 1 save to go.
On round 4 you are struck by the same poison again. You now go back to having to make 3 saves.

The resetting saves makes the poison deadly.

Edit:The rules say 3 consecutive saves so even if no additional poisoning is done you are screwed anyway if you fail the save to end it because you have to reset the saves.

This supports your second scenario since in the first one he never made the saves consecutively.


Ravingdork wrote:

Is it possible to suffer from multiple doses of contact poison simultaneously? Say a poisoned door knob has 3 doses of black lotus extract, for example. Does someone opening the door make 3 saves with increasing difficulty, a single save with a high DC, or only one save against the standard DC (with the incompetent poisoner wasting two doses on his trap)?

If this does work (in whatever fashion), could a potential assassin walk around with a poison proof glove containing 10 doses of black lotus extract and essentially auto kill the next person dumb enough to shake his dripping hand? What if the assassin attacked a known enemy who was aware of the glove? Could the assassin deliver multiple doses at once in this fashion?

I think the stacking rules would apply here and an object can only be poisoned by the same poison once. Now if you want to use several different poison that might work. I will admit that this is conjecture on my part so I am waiting to see if Jason responds and how.

PS:I don't think that was the intent, and as a player I would not try it since that means it is ok for the GM to do it to me.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Uninvited Ghost wrote:

1. How long does poison applied to a weapon last?

2. Can you sheath it for years, and it's still good when you use it later?
3. Is it all expended on the first successful hit?
4. Can you apply multiple doses so that it lasts multiple hits?

1. Until used or reason dictates that is has expired or rubbed off.

2. See number 1.
3. Yes.
4. No.

There ya go.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Quandary wrote:

...It looks like there´s other issues with ´Spell Poisons´ as well... Perhaps that merits a Blog Post Part 2.

The rules basically seem to ignore the fact that non-Affliction Poisons DO in fact exist in the Core Rules,
yet stuff like dealing with multiple doses is just the type of thing that could be ruled ´either way´...
It´d be nice to have a clear-cut take from the horse´s mouth on how these OTHER Poisons are supposed to fit in.

I will take a look at this in the future. There appears to be some bad language floating around.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Ravingdork wrote:

Say a particularly potent poison has 3 saves before it can be overcome/cured.

Which specific saves count towards that? I don't think the initial save does, because if you make that the poison goes away. You were pretty clear in that the second save at the end of an onset period counts towards the cure. I assume the saves against poison made on your turn all count towards the cure.

But what if I got hit with multiple doses of the poison? Do the initial saves (the ones that could throw off the new dose entirely) count towards curing of prior doses if I make them?

Initial saves that negate the poison entirely never count toward the cure line, nor do they count against it in terms of consecutive saves needed. Any other route leads toward madness I think.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Ravingdork wrote:
Is it possible to suffer from multiple doses of contact poison simultaneously? Say a poisoned door knob has 3 doses of black lotus extract, for example.

An item can only be coated in one dose of injury or contact poison. If you apply a second one, the first one is removed. No walking around with the super poisoned drippy glove.

Gross.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


So let me make sure I have this right:

You get attacked with poison:

1. You fail the initial save -- take damage.
2. Save again on your turn, fail the save again take more damage.

OR

You get attack by the same poison multiple times on the same round:

1. Make an initial save against each dose -- take damage from each dose you fail.
2. Save again on your turn, with increased DC from the multiple successful doses -- take damage again.

So the initial save isn't only an all or nothing for the poisoner -- it is a double down for the round he poisons the target on too.

******************************

AND a question:

How exactly would you have multiple doses of inhaled poison in one round?

Are inhaled poisons per round of exposure?
If I have two sources of the same inhaled poison entering the same area that the PCs are breathing at the same time then is that two doses of the poison?


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Say a particularly potent poison has 3 saves before it can be overcome/cured.

Which specific saves count towards that? I don't think the initial save does, because if you make that the poison goes away. You were pretty clear in that the second save at the end of an onset period counts towards the cure. I assume the saves against poison made on your turn all count towards the cure.

But what if I got hit with multiple doses of the poison? Do the initial saves (the ones that could throw off the new dose entirely) count towards curing of prior doses if I make them?

Initial saves that negate the poison entirely never count toward the cure line, nor do they count against it in terms of consecutive saves needed. Any other route leads toward madness I think.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I'm not so sure they would lead to madness per say, but thanks anyways! Man, poisons are starting to get real nasty.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Is it possible to suffer from multiple doses of contact poison simultaneously? Say a poisoned door knob has 3 doses of black lotus extract, for example.

An item can only be coated in one dose of injury or contact poison. If you apply a second one, the first one is removed. No walking around with the super poisoned drippy glove.

Gross.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

So they have to be separate items? So a poison immune creature could coat each of his five fingers with a dose of contact poison and then shake my hand? Fingers are often the same general size and shape as darts or kunai/shuriken after all. If this isn't allowed? How do you rationalize disallowing it in-game?

More Questions: Is it possible to put multiple doses of contact poison or inhaled poison in the same container (such as a jar with 10 doses of poison). If so, what happens when I smash the jar over someone's head (in the case of contact poison) or at their feet (in the case of inhaled poison)?

Is inhaled poison meant to be so deadly? It fills up an area, so a single dose can effect several people, unlike other types of poison. Furthermore, it may linger, effecting even more people, or quite possibly the same people more than once (how does that work if at all?). You've even clarified in your article that it is possible to hit people with multiple inhaled poisons simultaneously, which leads me to believe I could make pressurized gas bombs that contain more than one dose of inhaled poison. Are such things possible by the rules?

Also, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR CLARIFYING POISONS FOR US!!!


Why nobody responds me?


Gonzalo Velástegui wrote:
What to do when you extract poison with alchemy? If a PC uses poison in himself, can he get immunity to it?

These unanswered questions?


Ravingdork wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Say a particularly potent poison has 3 saves before it can be overcome/cured.

Which specific saves count towards that? I don't think the initial save does, because if you make that the poison goes away. You were pretty clear in that the second save at the end of an onset period counts towards the cure. I assume the saves against poison made on your turn all count towards the cure.

But what if I got hit with multiple doses of the poison? Do the initial saves (the ones that could throw off the new dose entirely) count towards curing of prior doses if I make them?

Initial saves that negate the poison entirely never count toward the cure line, nor do they count against it in terms of consecutive saves needed. Any other route leads toward madness I think.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I'm not so sure they would lead to madness per say, but thanks anyways! Man, poisons are starting to get real nasty.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Is it possible to suffer from multiple doses of contact poison simultaneously? Say a poisoned door knob has 3 doses of black lotus extract, for example.

An item can only be coated in one dose of injury or contact poison. If you apply a second one, the first one is removed. No walking around with the super poisoned drippy glove.

Gross.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

So they have to be separate items? So a poison immune creature could coat each of his five fingers with a dose of contact poison and then shake my hand? Fingers are often the same general size and shape as darts or kunai/shuriken after all. If this isn't allowed? How do you rationalize disallowing it in-game?

More Questions: Is it possible to put multiple doses of contact poison or inhaled poison in the same container (such as a jar with 10 doses of poison). If so, what happens when I smash the jar over someone's head (in the case of contact poison) or at their...

I think the intent is to not allow one container or item to deliver several poisons. That is why the super drippy poison thing did not work.

To the first paragraph sometime it is because the rules say so and balance reasons, kind of like how trip-locking does not work, and people that are paralyzed still get reflex saves. In short your super duper multi poison delivery system is not going to work. Trying to reword it won't do you any good. If you ain't fooling me you ain't fooling them. Trust the Wraithstrike for there is knowledge, in words, and righteousness in my ways. :)

PS:There is no rule for every situation. Sometimes you got to go with precedence. I think that instead of trying to ask a question for everything because it is impossible to cover everything you should ask a general question such as is it possible to deliver multiple doses all in one attack which is basically what you are doing anyway. It is just in a round a bout manner.

I am sure Jason will have to put his attention elsewhere, and it is better served to answer general statements that can cover broad areas than corner cases. You do come up with creative things so in short I am only asking you to consolidate your creativeness. :)


Ravingdork wrote:
Gonzalo Velástegui wrote:
What to do when you extract poison with alchemy? If a PC uses poison in himself, can he get immunity to it?
These unanswered questions?

Yes.


Gonzalo Velástegui wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Gonzalo Velástegui wrote:
What to do when you extract poison with alchemy? If a PC uses poison in himself, can he get immunity to it?
These unanswered questions?
Yes.

Well now that somebody's responded to your post, you needn't worry about them anymore. :P


Gonzalo Velástegui wrote:
What to do when you extract poison with alchemy?

I am not sure what you are asking. Are you asking how to create poisons using alchemy?

Gonzalo Velástegui wrote:
If a PC uses poison in himself, can he get immunity to it?

No, not by the current rules. You could take the feats Great Fortitude and Improved Great Fortitude to simulate this, however. It would also certainly be possible to have a custom feat that permitted immunity to a single poison. This would be up to the Game Master, however.


Mynameisjake wrote:
Gonzalo Velástegui wrote:
What to do when you extract poison with alchemy?
I am not sure what you are asking. Are you asking how to create poisons using alchemy?

I believe he is asking how one would extract the poison and/or poison glands from a (dead?) creature.

The answer to this is "the rules don't cover it." I would let someone extract such things from creatures, but they would still have to refine it with the alchemy skill (following all the rules of crafting) in order for it to last any worthwhile length of time or work at any serious potency. Poison right out of a corpse won't do much as many poisons are only active while the host creature lives. If you were to extract poisons from a living captive (or willing) creature, I would still make the player make the appropriate alchemy checks and spend the crafting fees, only now it would represent "getting the job done right with the right equipment" rather than actual crafting.

In other words, change the flavor, keep the mechanic.


Thanks Mynameisjake and Ravingdork.

I think that I can use the option to create an achievement feat to obtain immunity to a single poison.

This is the fact. I have a player, who wants to pick up all kind of resources from monsters that the group killed. Usually, I let to him try it and I give him 25% to obtain poison without get poisoned. And then he has to use rules of crafting - alchemy to make the poison useful. But, I´m not sure if I´m doing it right.

He also wants to gain immunity to poison through applying in himself a small dose of poison every day. I don´t know how to do it. I thought that maybe he can try it. He must apply the dose for 15 days, passing the saving throws. If he doesn´t pass one saving throw, he has to repeat the process from the begining. On this way, he will have immunity, or maybe a resistance against this poison.

Can you give me some advice?

Sorry by my poor English.

Osirion

I remember reading a third-party feat that gave immunity to one specific poison, and a +1 to saves vs. all other poisons. The feat could be taken multiple times, each time adding another immunity to another specific poison, and another +1 to saves vs. all other poisons.

IIRC, it was in Green Ronin's Plot & Poison and was called 'Poison Immunity.'

.

I'd be inclined to go with an Achievement Feat, instead, as you mention, and have the requirement being that the character has to expose himself to poison one hundred times or something, and then gaining immunity to that specific poison. Once the feat is purchased, I'd allow the character to continue gaining poison immunities by following the same procedure, suffering a hundred exposures to each venom selected.

I'd even consider each 'tick' of a poison to count as an exposure, so long as it does damage, so that if a character is exposed to a poison and suffers damage in three of the six rounds it progresses, he could count that as three of his hundred required exposures.

Any special protection that prevents him from taking damage would prevent him from advancing this count, as his body has to actually suffer the effects (and survive) to eventually gain the immunity.

The 'one hundred number' I picked out of a hat, but would keep the character from being able to quickly (or cheaply, in most cases) picking up too many poison immunities. He'd likely want to capture specimens of various giant spiders, centipedes, wasps, scorpions, etc. and allow them to bite or sting him, rather than spend the many thousands of gold he'd need to become immune to these toxins.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Uninvited Ghost wrote:

1. How long does poison applied to a weapon last?

2. Can you sheath it for years, and it's still good when you use it later?
3. Is it all expended on the first successful hit?
4. Can you apply multiple doses so that it lasts multiple hits?

1. Until used or reason dictates that is has expired or rubbed off.

2. See number 1.
3. Yes.
4. No.

There ya go.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Is there a rule of thumb for 1? I don't know enough about that IRL to be reasonable about it. Are we talking rounds? Minutes? Hours? Days? More?


Uninvited Ghost wrote:
Is there a rule of thumb for 1? I don't know enough about that IRL to be reasonable about it. Are we talking rounds? Minutes? Hours? Days? More?

I'm guessing it could be hours or days for poison that is just sitting on a weapon doing nothing. A weapon that is drawn and re-sheathed, swung about vigorously, or carelessly dragged along the ground would dilute/remove the poison in mere minutes if not less. Use common sense. Is the poison a powder or a liquid? Is it sticky? Think about how such traits would effect the poison's tenacity to stay with a blade.


Gonzalo Velástegui wrote:

Thanks Mynameisjake and Ravingdork.

This is the fact. I have a player, who wants to pick up all kind of resources from monsters that the group killed. Usually, I let to him try it and I give him 25% to obtain poison without get poisoned. And then he has to use rules of crafting - alchemy to make the poison useful. But, I´m not sure if I´m doing it right.

Well, there aren't really any rules for that sort of thing, but it sounds like you're right on track, to me anyway. The only thing I'd change is that instead of a straight chance to recover the poison, I'd probably make it a skill check. Not sure which one, though. Maybe Survival vs. the DC of the poison, maybe Heal. Possibly the appropriate Knowledge skill for identifying the creature.

And don't worry about your English. It's better than some native speakers I know.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

Gonzalo Velástegui wrote:

Thanks Mynameisjake and Ravingdork.

I think that I can use the option to create an achievement feat to obtain immunity to a single poison.
This is the fact. I have a player, who wants to pick up all kind of resources from monsters that the group killed. Usually, I let to him try it and I give him 25% to obtain poison without get poisoned. And then he has to use rules of crafting - alchemy to make the poison useful. But, I´m not sure if I´m doing it right.
He also wants to gain immunity to poison through applying in himself a small dose of poison every day. I don´t know how to do it. I thought that maybe he can try it. He must apply the dose for 15 days, passing the saving throws. If he doesn´t pass one saving throw, he has to repeat the process from the begining. On this way, he will have immunity, or maybe a resistance against this poison.
Can you give me some advice?

1) Looting poison from monsters is additional treasure. Over time this will have an impact on PC income. If you're sending a lot of poisonous monsters at the PCs, be sure to take this extra "treasure" into account.

2) The character shouldn't get something for free. There's a feat that gives a bonus on poison saves... giving this PC immunity to poison at no cost means someone who takes the feat is wasting his time. Also, giving them that for free means they're getting a 10th-level alchemist ability for free. Add a cost to it (like have them take the poison-resistance feat, and then another feat after that to increase that bonus).


Ravingdork wrote:
Uninvited Ghost wrote:
Is there a rule of thumb for 1? I don't know enough about that IRL to be reasonable about it. Are we talking rounds? Minutes? Hours? Days? More?
I'm guessing it could be hours or days for poison that is just sitting on a weapon doing nothing. A weapon that is drawn and re-sheathed, swung about vigorously, or carelessly dragged along the ground would dilute/remove the poison in mere minutes if not less. Use common sense. Is the poison a powder or a liquid? Is it sticky? Think about how such traits would effect the poison's tenacity to stay with a blade.

I am not sure how it works these days, but back in the old days of D&D, looting a long abandoned dungeon or fortress or something and finding still-viable poison needle traps in locks was a standard thing. If the 3rd edition or Pathfinder books do not have details on how long a coating of poison stays viable, you may be able to find it in 1st or 2nd edition books.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quote:
"Some afflictions have different effects after the first save is failed. These afflictions have an initial effect, which occurs when the first save is failed, and a secondary effect, when additional saves are failed, as noted in the text."

Does the above indicate that, after the first failed save, the secondary effect is applied instead of the initial effect rather than in addition to?

Blue Whinnis, for example:

Quote:

Blue Whinnis

Type poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 14

Frequency 1/round for 2 rounds

Initial Effect 1 Con damage; Secondary Effect unconsciousness for 1d3 hours; Cure 1 save

Upon being stabbed with a poisoned instrument of whinnisy doom, the victim attempts the initial save and fails, taking 1 Con damage. Upon their turn, they then attempt another save and fail.

Do they:

A) Take another 1 Con damage because this is the first save failed on their turn?

B) Take 1 Con damage and fall unconscious for 1d3 hours?

C) Fall unconscious for 1d3 hours?

If, as I suspect, the answer is C, then on their turn during the next round, they make their final check, right? Why? They're already unconscious. If they succeed, do they spontaneously wake?

Speaking of waking, is the victim kept asleep for the duration (1d3 hours) by the poison, regardless of attempts to wake them? Or can they be woken by the standard action of slapping, prodding, poking with non-whinnisy weapons, etc.?

And finally:

Quote:
Because if I wear it anywhere else, it chafes.


ArchAnjel wrote:
Quote:
"Some afflictions have different effects after the first save is failed. These afflictions have an initial effect, which occurs when the first save is failed, and a secondary effect, when additional saves are failed, as noted in the text."

Does the above indicate that, after the first failed save, the secondary effect is applied instead of the initial effect rather than in addition to?

Blue Whinnis, for example:

Quote:

Blue Whinnis

Type poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 14

Frequency 1/round for 2 rounds

Initial Effect 1 Con damage; Secondary Effect unconsciousness for 1d3 hours; Cure 1 save

Upon being stabbed with a poisoned instrument of whinnisy doom, the victim attempts the initial save and fails, taking 1 Con damage. Upon their turn, they then attempt another save and fail.

Do they:

A) Take another 1 Con damage because this is the first save failed on their turn?

B) Take 1 Con damage and fall unconscious for 1d3 hours?

C) Fall unconscious for 1d3 hours?

If, as I suspect, the answer is C, then on their turn during the next round, they make their final check, right? Why? They're already unconscious. If they succeed, do they spontaneously wake?

Speaking of waking, is the victim kept asleep for the duration (1d3 hours) by the poison, regardless of attempts to wake them? Or can they be woken by the standard action of slapping, prodding, poking with non-whinnisy weapons, etc.?

Considering the duration is 2 rounds, I think it obvious that the first round (2nd save) is 1 Con damage and the second round (3rd save) is unconsciousness. The primary save to throw off the poison gives you 1 Con damage should you fail.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
...the first round (2nd save) is 1 Con damage and the second round (3rd save) is unconsciousness.

So for any poison with a secondary effect, you think the initial effect should be applied twice if they fail all saves? The moment the poison is initially applied on the attacker's turn as well as the first save failed on the victim's turn? Not until the third failed save does the secondary effect kick in?

Am I understanding your interpretation correctly? I wonder if that's the official interpretation.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Tales Subscriber

You make a good point ArchAngel - it' seems like the initial save to avoid the affliction, if it is going to deal damage, should also count as "round 1" of the duration, unless it has an onset period (since those require another save to actually take damage).


ArchAnjel wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
...the first round (2nd save) is 1 Con damage and the second round (3rd save) is unconsciousness.

So for any poison with a secondary effect, you think the initial effect should be applied twice if they fail all saves? The moment the poison is initially applied on the attacker's turn as well as the first save failed on the victim's turn? Not until the third failed save does the secondary effect kick in?

Am I understanding your interpretation correctly? I wonder if that's the official interpretation.

For a potion with a primary and secondary affect the primary affect only occurs once per poisoning.

For this poison if you make the first save the person has been averted. If you make the fail the first save then you take the 1 one point of con damage, and but if you make the 2nd save you are cured.

If you fail both save then you take 1 con damage, and then fall unconscious.

edit:From Jason in this very thread

2. A poison with an onset and an initial and secondary effect are tricky, but the way it works is this. You get your first save. Make it and the poison ends. Fail and you've got it, but take no effect yet. After the onset, you make another save. Fail and take the initial effect, make it and check cure to see if it ends. After that first one, its all secondary effect. The onset time is not part of the frequency. Also note if you get multiple doses of a poison with an initial and secondary effect, you can not take the initial more than once as long as the poison is still during its frequency. If it ends and you get exposed again, you can suffer the initial effect again.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Concerro, the quote from Jason is very explanatory but it explains how to adjudicate poisons with an onset time. Blue whinnis has no onset time so the questions still remain.


ArchAnjel wrote:
Concerro, the quote from Jason is very explanatory but it explains how to adjudicate poisons with an onset time. Blue whinnis has no onset time so the questions still remain.

The lack of an onset time makes it easier to work out.

If you make the initial save the poison has no affect as if you had never been poisoned. If you fail the first one then you move on to the second affect for the remainder of the poison.

The "After that first one, its all secondary effect." is still the way it works.


I also would like to thank the Paizo team for creating this helpful blog entry, it clears up a lot of questions that may arise from Poison use. I will certainly keep it close as these issues are sure to arise.

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games, RPG Superstar Judge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Jason, big big big props for the Real Genius reference. :)

Clark


Just a note... Information from here and other sources around has been condensed and solidified to a single listing on our side. Feel free to take a look and drop us a line if we've misinterpreted something.

Poison Sidebar


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Could we get some sort of idea on how to formulate the costs of new poisons? I haven't been able to unlock the pattern if there is one...


I put up a post the other day before i figured out this was here. I would still like a bit of clerification, because the sarrow discriptions did quite do it for me.
Say an alchemist uses two or three applications of consintrated posion on his weapons. For instance, injury posions on fangs, claw and claw. Thats three weapons with say (Purple worm poison injury 24 1/rd. for 6 rds. 1d3 Str 2 saves 700 gp)consintrated to add a +2 to the DC.
If all three attacks hit would the dc to resist be 26(pass or fail) and a 28 or 30 on the scound attacks save if the target fails the first say and whats the third save? Or would it be a strait dc from all three attacks at a 30 or 34?


I'm confused about something in the following scenario:

Paizo BLOG wrote:
Scenario C: Valeros is hit by a pair of arrows coated in greenblood oil. He fails the DC 13 Fort save and takes 1 point of Con damage. He then must make a DC 15 Fort save for the second arrow. He fails this save and takes 1 point of Con damage. On his turn, he must make another DC 15 Fort save, which he fails, causing him to take yet another point of Con damage. On the next turn, the archer fires an arrow coated in special greenblood oil poison, with a DC of 20. It hits poor Valeros, who fails the save and now must track the two poisons separately (since they are not identical). To add to his misery, another arrow coated in ordinary greenblood oil poison hits him as well, forcing him to make a DC 17 Fortitude save, which he also fails, increasing the total duration to 8 rounds (1 of which has passed). Valeros is in trouble.

I'm confused about the bolded section of the above quote. Why wouldn't he make a DC 17 save at this point, because two active doses of poison are affecting him?

Is the intention that you end up with +2 DC for every other dose of poison that is currently affecting you?

Rubia

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

The first dose of a poison does not increase its own DC.


Concentrate poison: The alchemist can combine two doses of the same poison to increase their effects. This requires two doses of the poison and 1 minute of concentration. When completed, the alchemist has one dose of poison. The poison's frequency is extended by 50% and the save DC increases by +2. This poison must be used within 1 hour of its creation or it is ruined.
I'm refering to this (look up). It's like using two doeses at once, but if i use two or three weapons with the same thing on them does that count as 2 x # of weapons coated for # of doeses? thats all im asking. So yes the first posion increases itself.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Von Marshal wrote:

Concentrate poison: The alchemist can combine two doses of the same poison to increase their effects. This requires two doses of the poison and 1 minute of concentration. When completed, the alchemist has one dose of poison. The poison's frequency is extended by 50% and the save DC increases by +2. This poison must be used within 1 hour of its creation or it is ruined.

I'm refering to this (look up). It's like using two doeses at once, but if i use two or three weapons with the same thing on them does that count as 2 x # of weapons coated for # of doeses? thats all im asking. So yes the first posion increases itself.

I was replying to Rubia (look up). I'm not really sure about your question. Lemme go check the FAQ on alchemists...

EDIT: Hm, didn't see anything. My guess, then, would be that the final DC and duration would be based on the number of "normal" doses applied. If each concentrated dose is two normal doses, then a creature afflicted with both concentrated doses would be treated as being affected by four normal doses (for a total of +6 to the DC).


Cool, thats's how I was tring to stack it. Ty for opionion.

Qadira

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Al Rigg wrote:
Any chance you can also clarify how delay poison works in the above, Jason, if the poison isn't neutralised before the spell wears off?

Delay poison simply stops the process in its tracks, but you should still track the order in which new poison is applied to the target. When delay poison ends, all of these initial saves happen in order, then then character must track rounds as outlined above.

Hope that helps

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

It seems counter intuitive, because in pathfinder the name of the spell has remained "Delay Poison", yet the text of the spell says that it confers Immunity to poison for the duration.

Another character immune to poison via another means, like Diamond Body (monk 11) or Venom Immunity (Druid 9) would ignore the saves as the poison doesn't effect them.
So does Delay Poison confer immunity? Or does Delay Poison allow the subject to ignore further effects of poison for its duration?

As a follow up, can anyone clarify how Neutralize poison would work?
if a character is suffering from exposure to 7 doses of Greenblood Oil, and one of Dragon Bile, if a healer cast Neutralize Poison on him, does the healing character make one caster level check for the Greenblood (DC13) and one for the Dragon Bile? One for the Greenblood (DC 25) and one for the Dragon Bile? Or seven for the Greenblood oil DC 13 and one for the Dragon Bile?


Delay poison does not give permanent immunity. It allows you to ignore the poison for a certain amount of time. When that time expires you make the save.

For neutralize poisons each one should requires a check since multiple poison add to the save DC. They don't force 7 different saves every time your turn comes up.

Qadira

Multiple poison doses as outlined above do force 7 saves when neutralize poison wears off, as clarified by JB, the DC of those saves is determined by making/failing the saves.

1. DC 13
2. DC 13, DC 15 if he fails the first one
Etc.

So like I asked, what is the DC of the caster level check for the poisons in my previous post?

7 at DC 13, one at 13? One at 25?

And on a sticking point, temporary immunity, would still imply that they are Immune fir the duration: so the poison would have no effect.

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