Room For Improvement

Monday, January 3, 2011

It's a brand new year, and if there's anything the turning of a year is good for—other than spending New Year's Eve partying while dressed like post-apocalyptic air pirates and biosculpted mutants, like Editor Judy and I did—it's taking stock of how far we've come, and how we might do better.

While there's always plenty of room for personal improvement (and no, Wes, I don't need any suggestions on that front), here I'm really thinking about Pathfinder Tales. In the last year—heck, in the last six months—we've come a long way, from just a dream of publishing Pathfinder-related novels to having two excellent books on the shelves, a third off at the printer, and a thriving line of free, serialized short stories and novellas available on the website every week. Not too shabby!

Yet we want more. Not just to publish more novels—because we will—or to find and woo more excellent authors to join our camp—because we are—but to assure both that the books continue to get better, and that they manage to make it into people's hands.

Which is where we turn to you. If you're reading this blog, odds are good that you're one of the hardcore Paizonians, the folks who post on the messageboards, play the games, and read the books. And we want to know what you think. Therefore, if you have a free minute—maybe the kids are down for a nap, or your boss just left for lunch—please post in the comments thread and answer a few Pathfinder Tales questions for us:

1) Is there anything you'd like to see more of or less of from the novels or web fiction?

2) What do you think would help new readers unfamiliar with Pathfinder pick up the novels if they ran across them randomly in a bookstore?

3) Which cover art do you like the best? Why?

4) Are there any fantasy-related book blogs or online communities that you think might enjoy Pathfinder Tales, if only we were to advertise/send review copies/etc?

5) Any other ideas for how we can get more books into readers' hands?

Thanks, and we look forward to hearing what you think!

James Sutter
Fiction Editor

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Dark Archive

James Sutter wrote:
Any other ideas for how we can get more books into readers' hands?

Three words: Seoni's Book Club

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

1) My personal taste is to keep things small and none epic. So far that has been the case. But I would love to see some novels about adventuring parties. Ed Greenwood did a series like that Knights of Myth Drannor which had I think 7 or 8 main characters in it. I would love to see similar style novels. Plus they would help be a gateway into Pathfinder RPG if they read like the type of adventures most groups would play or like to play.

2) Most people I know pick books up due to the cover more often than not. Followed by the back blurb. So a good action cover to capture the eye and interest and then a very well written back blurb to draw people in I think are key.

3) Not sure I understand your question, are you asking what artist? Or are you asking should they be action scenes or what? Just not sure what you are asking.

4) Not off the top of my head.

5) Advertise, maybe a poster or standup for both gaming stores and book stores. Make sure to offer as many epub versions as you can and get them distrubted in as many places as possible. Not much help not sure what else would help. Well unless you could get someone like Stephen King to write one that is. :)

Glad to see you guys plan to push this.

Dark Archive

Novels with the Iconic's in them would be nice.


There is a german online community for fantasy and Sci-Fi RPG that offers review items to players, it is called Ringbote (www.ringbote.de). Perhaps you would get more german players to Pathfinder (Tales) by them.


James Sutter wrote:
1) Is there anything you'd like to see more of or less of from the novels or web fiction?

I haven't been reading the web-fiction over the christmas. But I was quite happy with the gist of it back then. I would like to see some spell-using main characters though. I know its more pulp to be the hero and deal with such spellusers with wit and strong arm, but its also a Pathfinder tales. And I'd like to see a wizard in action.

James Sutter wrote:
2) What do you think would help new readers unfamiliar with Pathfinder pick up the novels if they ran across them randomly in a bookstore?

Dark Mistress' suggestion is a solid one, but paizo already do great art.

James Sutter wrote:
3) Which cover art do you like the best? Why?

Good artist, despite some wierd poses in some of his images. But it just has an epicness to it. The plague of shadows cover is similar, but not as strong. Maybe its the immensness suggest by the background.

James Sutter wrote:
4) Are there any fantasy-related book blogs or online communities that you think might enjoy Pathfinder Tales, if only we were to advertise/send review copies/etc?

I don't know. Sorry.

James Sutter wrote:
5) Any other ideas for how we can get more books into readers' hands?

I don't know about in general. But in the case of Ireland, getting them into shops here would help raise interest and awareness in non-PFRPG player's hands. That said we're not a huge market, I'd just love to see Pathfinder Tales in Dublin's Chapters.


1) More Irrisen!
Seriously: I'd also like non epic, non superhero novels. The first two were great and I'd like alot more "Indiana Jones" Pathfinder stories.

2) Good Artwork, Hardcover books, maybe even collector's editions.

3) Winter Witch-I like clear, bright, positive colours

4) Sorry, no idea

5) I'm not sure who is responsible for that, but Amazon Germany needed 5 weeks to send me prince of Wolves and Winter Witch, in the end i canceled both orders and bought it via a French (I'm from Germany) Hobby Online Shop.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

Long, wordy response:

Spoiler:

1) Is there anything you'd like to see more of or less of from the novels or web fiction?

I actually think the time is right to do some novels based on the Pathfinder iconics. Why? Because a lot of bookstores stock both your RPG products as well as your novel line. Any displays that already depict the RPG art (stand-ups, posters, bookshelf displays, etc.) can then synergize with the art on the bookcovers of your novels. That kind of visual saturation can't be underestimated. Plus, if you have RPG players that haven't yet discovered the novel line, it might draw them in. And, if you have folks reading the novels who haven't found the RPG line yet, that might also draw them in.

2) What do you think would help new readers unfamiliar with Pathfinder pick up the novels if they ran across them randomly in a bookstore?

I think you should probably do a shortstory anthology. Something that gives some quick snippet fictional tie-in's to several of the countries all across Golarion. That way, people start becoming more familiar with your world of shared fiction a lot faster. Then, if they want the deeper dive on Ustalav or Irrisen, etc., they can go for the full-length novels.

I've seen this effect play out with other booklines for shared worlds. Particularly with sci-fi settings that reach across entire star systems. And, as a new reader, the expansiveness of those settings can seem rather daunting. You either need a) an unbelievably awesome author and story to kick things off, or b) an anthology of shortstories that gets people up to speed really quickly on what the setting is all about...and all the cool, imaginative possibilities contained therein. Even better if you can do both at the same time.

3) Which cover art do you like the best? Why?

Let's be honest. Sex sells. Any cover art that's sexy in some way is going to be eye-catching from the get-go. It doesn't have to be provocative. Just beautiful people facing the dangers of Golarion. That at least gets people to pick up the book. And from there, maybe they turn it over and read the blurb on the back. If it's compelling text with an evocative image, maybe they buy it and give it a try.

In terms of a particular artist, I don't really have an opinion...though I will say I think Dave Rapoza's art for some of the Pathfinder RPG products has the right mix of action and visual appeal in them. That's what you need to shoot for...action scenes with amazing characters and visuals in them. That gets your imagination going right away and draws people in with the promise that the book will deliver on explaining that kind of heart-pumping scene.

4) Are there any fantasy-related book blogs or online communities that you think might enjoy Pathfinder Tales, if only we were to advertise/send review copies/etc?

No opinion here. I don't believe I've ever visited any book blogs or online communities that discuss fantasy or sci-fi fiction. As a consumer, I more routinely visit the bookstores...might get one of their flyers in the mail if I belong to their bookclub...and I might check Amazon.com to read customer reviews about a book. That's pretty much all I've ever needed. And I suspect you'll reach the majority of your potential customers by pursuing those avenues more than anything else.

5) Any other ideas for how we can get more books into readers' hands?

Small events like book signings might help if you can target locations that already draw lots of buying customers...not necessarily of your products, just frequently-visited bookstores that are already selling lots of other fantasy genre books. I'd suggest you do your research and find out which stores are moving those products better than others. Then, contact those stores and see if you can push your novel line by having an in-store signing. Just the setup for the event will put more of your displays in the public eye. And, if people get a chance to speak with the author, all the better.

Secondly, people keep saying the wave of the future is the e-reader books. I haven't seen it yet, but if Paizo wants to be at the forefront of that movement, you could break new ground and blaze a trail into the electronic universe. That might be at odds with your relationships with book distributors and bookstores, though. My recommendation would be to wait-and-see on the e-reader thing before commiting all that strongly to it.

What about hardback novels? Are those anywhere in your future? Because I think there's a certain clientele that might prefer hardback books to softcovers. And, again, if you can serialize some major storyline with really amazing characters, a hardback line would be more appealing for that kind of thing. It might take some time to build up to that, though. Still, you might win some additional customers that way. You guys probably know more about the challenges of making a profitable production run on hardback novels vs. softcovers, though.

Lastly, I'd suggest that you find some up-and-coming authors eventually. Not just the established names. Maybe run a fiction-writing version of the RPG Superstar craze to find some. Bring in a few trial authors and let them do some fiction for Golarion. Maybe the winner initially gets a web fiction opportunity...or a shortstory in an anthology or something. But start stirring the pot a little to find some new talent could be a good thing. And calling attention to them (and their name) via a popular contest will help vault them into the public eye a bit more than an unproven author. Obviously, I have some self-interest in that, as you're well aware. But if such a contest energized your book line just half as much as what RPGSS has done, I think it could be worth it...both for the new potential authors it draws into your stable...as well as the fun everyone will have reading their works and voting them through. Also, it's a pretty low-cost, low-risk marketing approach to drum up additional interest and business for the novel line.


Just my two cents,
--Neil


@ Neil: 95% Agree

I just have to say that I normally avoid books with too much "sex sells" I rather like landscapes and the like - and I don't like short story anthologies at all, some whet my apetite but then I'm annoyed they end so soon...others are just a waste of time and in the end I never get the feeling that the book was worth reading it.


+ for iconics in the series
+ for short stories - Arcana Unearthed and Arcana Evolved had a book each, for representing the setting, and it was a nice read to get into the feel of the world

Dark Archive

Dark_Mistress wrote:
1) My personal taste is to keep things small and none epic. So far that has been the case. But I would love to see some novels about adventuring parties. Ed Greenwood did a series like that Knights of Myth Drannor which had I think 7 or 8 main characters in it. I would love to see similar style novels. Plus they would help be a gateway into Pathfinder RPG if they read like the type of adventures most groups would play or like to play.

+1

That would rock!

Silver Crusade

I think keeping it as close to pathfinder material as possible is key.

For example:

If a spell is cast we should be able to have a pretty good Idea of what that spell is.

If a feat is used, power attack, cleave, TWF, quick draw, we should be able to see which one it is.

In other words, try to steer clear of making up abilities spells etc that aren’t covered in pathfinder. Maybe if a new spell is used you could throw it into the back of the book detailed out etc.

Also, I think creating iconic figures is always a good thing. Does that mean you have to limit yourself to only a handful? No, but have iconics is good even if there are a lot of them.

Another example that might be helpful is to stat up your Iconic characters somewhere on the website or in a book, that way people can look at his/her sheet and say oh that’s cool how they described that feat or ya, that’s how I envisioned that spell too. This will help GM's to better illuminate their campaigns’, which is always a good selling point.


<<1) Is there anything you'd like to see more of or less of from the novels or web fiction?>>

What I would like to see is a periodical (say 1/year) print publishing that collects all the short stories from paizo.com. Maybe with some added art. I just don't like reading on a screen that much (besides, I have to do it all day, so I'm glad if my downtime lets me enjoy some dead tree).

<<2) What do you think would help new readers unfamiliar with Pathfinder pick up the novels if they ran across them randomly in a bookstore? >>

This may be counterintuitive, but: Don't aim too close to the RPG. I know a lot of readers that love fantasy books but are hesitant to pick up anything that is 'branded' too strongly, meaning that they are afraid that if they pick up a novel they would also have to buy the RPG book to understand some of the background. What I think might help in this regard is testimonials from authors that are known beyond the WotC/Paizo novel circle, such as Miéville.

<<3) Which cover art do you like the best? Why?>>

No preference - but it should always be clear, crisp, not too distracting considering that there's also the title and branding on the cover. I rather liked the style you chose so far - please keep it that way, no Elmore for me.

<<4) Are there any fantasy-related book blogs or online communities that you think might enjoy Pathfinder Tales, if only we were to advertise/send review copies/etc?>>

I don't know if you are in contact with Fantasy Book Critic (http://fantasybookcritic.blogspot.com/)? They're my go-to guys for lots of good, fresh authors.

<<5) Any other ideas for how we can get more books into readers' hands?>>

Indulge your readers and cooperate with Subterranean Press to create limited-edition cloth-bound volumes :P. On a more serious note: It would be great if, say, the first three Dave Gross volumes are released, to then collect them as a hardcover. Unless that is too prohibitive from a financial standpoint. I just hate paperbacks, they look so ugly on my shelf compared to shiny hardcovers ;) ...


James Sutter wrote:

1) Is there anything you'd like to see more of or less of from the novels or web fiction?

2) What do you think would help new readers unfamiliar with Pathfinder pick up the novels if they ran across them randomly in a bookstore?

3) Which cover art do you like the best? Why?

4) Are there any fantasy-related book blogs or online communities that you think might enjoy Pathfinder Tales, if only we were to advertise/send review copies/etc?

5) Any other ideas for how we can get more books into readers' hands?

1.) Nothing to really comment on here. I'm reading Winter Witch now and nothing comes to mind that I'd like to see that is missing. I don't read the Web Fiction (just don't like to read stories on my PC) so can't comment on it.

2.) If you want to attract readers to pick up Pathfinder Tales novels in the bookstore my best advice would be to make the title bigger/more prominent and the Pathfinder Tales logo smaller, less prominent. New readers are easily turned off by shared-world fiction for worlds they aren't familiar with. If the book isn't part of a specific series (as in a sequel to something else), it doesn't need to have the Pathfinder Tales logo be the most prominent aspect of the front cover. The fact that the novel is a Pathfinder Tales novel should be considered incidental to the new reader.

3.) I like the cover art for Prince of Wolves better, for two reasons. One, werewolves look really cool. Two, something just bugs me about the cover of Winter Witch. I can't put my finger on it but I think it is in the way the witch is drawn. OK, and three, I don't think having a blue title on a blue background draws attention to the title. This goes back to point two: The title should be more prominent than the logo for the series.

4.) Sorry, I don't have any input here. The only books I usually read about online are Paizo books.

5.) I know when I was in school sometimes I bought random paperback books that I found appealing at the school book fair. I have no idea how books got selected to be sold at the book fair but I could see the Pathfinder Tales novels being something I might have picked up at one. Of course the maturity level of the books may be too adult for a school book fair, but I got Stephen King's Eyes of the Dragon at one once.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

James Sutter" wrote:

1) Is there anything you'd like to see more of or less of from the novels or web fiction?

2) What do you think would help new readers unfamiliar with Pathfinder pick up the novels if they ran across them randomly in a bookstore?

3) Which cover art do you like the best? Why?

4) Are there any fantasy-related book blogs or online communities that you think might enjoy Pathfinder Tales, if only we were to advertise/send review copies/etc?

5) Any other ideas for how we can get more books into readers' hands?

1) Not only would more adventuring parties be good, but starting a trillogy that would allow bigger stories (not world changing, but perhaps on the scale of some of the APs) would be a good way to get more attension. It seems that series tend to get more attension in the modern marketplace than stand alone books. I also wouldn't want more than one series going at a time. One of the overload issues with the Forgotten Realms books for example was dealing with 3-6 series concurrently.

2) probably the best way to do this would be to snag a known fantasy author who isn't tied to game related books. That would draw in a lot of their fans who might not normally pick up a series based on a game. An example of this is the recent Michael Moorcock Doctor Who book, which is the first one I've picked up since the old novelisations of the original series. That being said, there's also some great authors who are more known for their game related books that I'd love to see write for Pathfinder, notably Paul Kemp and Monte Cook.

3) no special preference, but keep doing the same great art from the first 2 books and the RPG line and you should be fine there.

4) don't know, but would love to find out about ones you hear about. I'm not aware of a book fantasy book review site and would enjoy that.

5) a bigger presense on amazon and other online book stores. Not only for digital copies of the books, but feature stories/author interviews on their sites on the landing page for the fantasy/sci-fi genre would get lots of eyeballs.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

AudioBooks!!!


1) As far as books go, try to avoid too many overly long Trilogies, Quintets, etc. Done in One stories are easier to get into and the reader doesn't feel 'obligated' (read: intimidated) by having to read a bunch of back-story. If you have a popular character, however, feel free to do more stories with him/her.

2) Length, Price, and (sadly) cover art.

3) I personally don't pay much attention to cover art - I do know however, that there is a small group that identify certain genres by the artist. IE, the person that does all the Jordan Wheel of Cheese books does ALOT of covers for fantasy. I would avoid them, as they all largely look the same.

4) don't read these...sorry

5) Maybe do a free 'reader' formatted in size and length as a comic book, slap some art from your storehouse in it, and give it out on Free Comic Book day.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

1) Is there anything you'd like to see more of or less of from the novels or web fiction?

For me, the more the story feels like something that could happen, the better. Prince of Wolves was better in this regard than Winter Witch. It would also be great if new magic was not invented for every book. Writing fiction that uses the Pathfinder game system is challenging, I'm sure, but if what happens in the book cannot be explained in game terms, then it's a problem for anyone familiar with the system.

Unfortunately, this limits the fiction quite a bit, I'm aware, and is probably the reason why both of the books so far have invented new magic mechanics.

2) What do you think would help new readers unfamiliar with Pathfinder pick up the novels if they ran across them randomly in a bookstore?

  • The books need to be recongnizable as NOT part of a long series - that each book can be read as a standalone unit.
  • As Dark Mistress said, it's all the cover art and the blurb, which is funny because the cover art has no relation whatsoever to the quality of the book. But that's the way it is.
  • Not highlighting the connection to the Pathfinder RPG. If a potential reader already plays Pathfinder, then it's a moot point. If a potential reader does not already play, then it's very likely to be a negative - much as I love the game, the negative associations of RPGs are well-known.

3) Which cover art do you like the best? Why?

The less superhero-like, the better, which puts Prince of Wolves ahead of Winter Witch. Ever talked to Michael Whelan? He seems to be a go-to guy for fantasy and science fiction art.

At all cost, avoid campy fantasy art. It blends into the rest of the pile of lesser known fantasy novels.

4) Are there any fantasy-related book blogs or online communities that you think might enjoy Pathfinder Tales, if only we were to advertise/send review copies/etc?

Can't comment on this; I don't enjoy reading fiction online.

5) Any other ideas for how we can get more books into readers' hands?

Have you talked to any of the book clubs, i.e. Science Fiction Book Club or the like?

Also, remember the success of Thieves' World? Something similar might garner a lot of attention for Pathfinder or Pathfinder tales. Finally, while there's not a lot of outlets for short fiction, you might try to get something published in places you wouldn't normally consider - there are still a few magazines that print fiction, and there's certainly tales that could be told in a short form.

In addition, getting some of the Pathfinder stories into the teen section at bookstores might help. Because of the success of Harry Potter, there's a lot of fantasy-based teen fiction.

Finally, have you considered approaching bigger name authors for short story contract work? David Weber and Elizabeth Moon come to mind; both have done amazing work in fantasy, and they're just a few among the many.


I was thinking it would be great to see a book for each of the iconics that cover their background. Really give the character the full treatment he/she deserves.

And I also like to see inspiration on how to roleplay the characters themselves.


NSpicer wrote:
Secondly, people keep saying the wave of the future is the e-reader books. I haven't seen it yet, but if Paizo wants to be at the forefront of that movement, you could break new ground and blaze a trail into the electronic universe. That might be at odds with your relationships with book distributors and bookstores, though. My recommendation would be to wait-and-see on the e-reader thing before commiting all that strongly to it.

In regards to the viability and future of e-books, I can't speak for Amazon, but Barnes & Noble has recently announced that their website is now actually selling more e-books than physical books due to the popularity of the NOOK and NOOKcolor devices.


Is there anything you'd like to see more of or less of from the novels or web fiction?
I understand the reasons for only publishing the books in trade paperback format, but if it proves feasible in the future I would love to have hardcover books instead.

For several years now I've been trying to limit my book collection to hardcover editions, replacing any favorite paperback novels as I can afford to do so. I'll buy the Pathfinder Tales books in trade paperback if there's no alternative available, but I would prefer a more substantial publication. Or perhaps, if they prove popular enough, look into having a run of the novels library bound and make them available at a slightly increased cost. This leads into the next comment:

Any other ideas for how we can get more books into readers' hands?
Currently the Pathfinder Tales novels are not finding their way into many libraries. This is due solely as a result of their trade paperback format; many libraries won't even consider adding them to their collection, and even those that will tend to place them on a shelf specifically for trade paperbacks. These books are not usually cataloged or tracked as they are taken out, not always expected to be returned, and these shelves are dominated by romance novels, and as a result not frequently browsed by individuals who would want to read Pathfinder fiction. As it is, I can't even donate a copy of the novels to the local library; they won't accept it. Things would be different, however, if a hardcover or library bound alternative were available.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A mystery/investigation story involving the Ulfen Guard might be neat.

-Skeld


1) Is there anything you'd like to see more of or less of from the novels or web fiction?

Get the novels in Kindle format.

2) What do you think would help new readers unfamiliar with Pathfinder pick up the novels if they ran across them randomly in a bookstore?

In general:
Showcase the world of Golarian in the solicited material for the books NOT the "Pathfinder" brand name. When I look for a new fantasy book to read I look for what the book is about and details about its world not what brand the book is part of. In fact if I see a book that is branded with something I have no interest in (like the Warhammer line of novels) I avoid it completely.

In store:
An end-cap type of display with Golarian themed artwork that groups them together and singles them out from the myriad of fantasy available in any book store. Right now the only people that know Pathfinder are gamers, you need to display the product in a way that a fantasy reader that is not a gamer would be interested in it.

On web:
A website just for the line of books and the world of Golarian. Most non gamers are never going to figure out that these novels are related to Paizo and find there way to Paizo.com and if they did they would be lost when they got here. You need a golarian.com just for the world and the novels that anyone can find and enjoy without wading through all the Paizo publishing stuff.

3) Which cover art do you like the best? Why?
They are both fine. I would remove the "Pathfinder Tales" and replace it with a new "World of Golarian" logo.


I agree with the folks who asked for short story compilations, novels about the Iconics, and keeping away from "epic" stories. Not that there's anything wrong with epic, but WoTC beat that right into the ground. More small scale stories would make for a nice change of pace from what most publishers doing heroic fantasy have on the shelves too

Contributor

I'm hoping Werthead finds his way to this topic, because I've seen him posting elsewhere on the board and he's extremely knowledgeable about SF/F publishing and blogs, so he might have some good comments to add.

Two of the bigger fantasy discussion boards I'm aware of are:

SFFWorld (also does site reviews)

and

Westeros (don't think this one has site reviews)

Both discussion boards include a lot of book bloggers among their regular members.

While a fair number of general SF/F readers on those boards seem to have a not-terribly-favorable opinion of tie-in novels, I've also seen a lot of curiosity about and willingness to read the "good" representatives of the subgenre, and many, many readers and bloggers remember Salvatore and Weis/Hickman fondly as formative reading experiences. It might be worthwhile for Paizo to do some outreach to those communities (and/or figure out which bloggers might be receptive to review copies), if you have the time and inclination.

Additionally, while Publishers Weekly generally doesn't review media tie-in books, the associated Genreville blog does, and has specifically noted that here:

"A Note for Publicists Who Handle Media Tie-In Books"

Grand Lodge

1) For the Web Fiction -- it's something that I've wanted to start getting into for a couple months but have little time for. Thus, I would like to see it organized in a way other than scrolling down the page for a few miles trying to find where one ends and another begins.

If I could open an icon/folder (the way I do with Pathfinder Society) and see a set of icons, one for each story -- with a brief 30-50 word description (like the Scenarios) -- then I can choose which web story interests me and read it. It would be very convenient.

As it is now I have given up trying because I can't easily find where one web story ends and another begins and because I don't really know what I'll be in for if I do take the time to find and then read one at random.

2 and 5) While I'm not suggesting implementing the exact T.H.Lain gimmick to make Pathfinder Tales visible in the bookstores, something like that would help.

It took me several minutes going through the stacks at my local bookstore to find Gross's novel and then Cunningham's. And, of course, they were considerable far away from each other.

Maybe "require(?)" your distributers to put all the titles together -- they do it for FR novels, afterall.

A person walking the shelves without Paizo knowledge will be lucky to find a Pathfinder Tale and even when the cover art and title catches the eye -- would not know that the novel is part of a series.


I know we've been given reasons why having novels about the iconics might be problematic... but I have to say that I would still snap them up nevertheless.


Dark_Mistress wrote:
I would love to see some novels about adventuring parties. Ed Greenwood did a series like that Knights of Myth Drannor which had I think 7 or 8 main characters in it. I would love to see similar style novels. Plus they would help be a gateway into Pathfinder RPG if they read like the type of adventures most groups would play or like to play.

+1

And I also agree with keeping the mechanics as close to the game world as possible. While the new magic mechanics in "Wolves" and "Witch" were neat I prefer to be able to see how it fits into the world/game.


Speaking as a librarian and former bookseller, books sell based on cover art a lot more than you'd think: the key being:

1. A easily discernible face or body, particularly of an attractive young woman. More close-ups, I think, might be the way to go. Fantasy fiction has a 'style' of cover dating back to the 80s with an action scene or group of characters, but I think a single person (a la the Dresden Files, or even better the Kushiel series) might attract the eye better than a complex image.

2. Bright colors, high contrast (you've mainly got the former).

3. Recognizable branding mixed with highly readable but 'fantasy' title fonts. I think the narrow, serify fonts used for the titles need to be rethought.

Basically, capture the gals and guys wandering through SF/Fantasy from 6-10 feet away.

These are based on my limited perspective from my professional background. However, bookstore sales (and library borrowing which leads to sales, eventually) are less important than they used to be.


Hephaesta wrote:


And I also agree with keeping the mechanics as close to the game world as possible. While the new magic mechanics in "Wolves" and "Witch" were neat I prefer to be able to see how it fits into the world/game.

This is a must for me as well.

I'm disappointed to hear that the first two novels do not use the actual game mechanics in their stories. There is plenty of non-game based fantasy fiction for me to read. The main reason I would read the PF based fiction at all would be to see how the game mechanics translated into the fiction. If the first two novels don't do this I'll push them to the end of my reading pile.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The way I see it, a good story should not be hampered by Game mechanics.

I am more interested in seeing good stories set in Golarion, where I can see the different Civilizations in play, which I can bring to my game. I could care less if the story does not fully jive with the rules.

Dark Archive Contributor

cibet44 wrote:
Hephaesta wrote:


And I also agree with keeping the mechanics as close to the game world as possible. While the new magic mechanics in "Wolves" and "Witch" were neat I prefer to be able to see how it fits into the world/game.

This is a must for me as well.

I'd say you can use the game rules to simulate 95%+ of the action in either of the first two books. That figure might be low. Clever gamers can probably push it closer to 98%.

That said, I'm of the "If you can hear the sound of dice rolling, it's not working as a story" philosophy.


Dragnmoon wrote:

The way I see it, a good story should not be hampered by Game mechanics.

I am more interested in seeing good stories set in Golarion, where I can see the different Civilizations in play, which I can bring to my game. I could care less if the story does not fully jive with the rules.

The way I see it, I can read thousands of good stories NOT based on games at all. When I choose to read a story specifically based on a game I expect to see the game IN the story. For a Pathfinder based book I want to read good stories that embrace the game, not hand wave or ignore it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
cibet44 wrote:
The way I see it, I can read thousands of good stories NOT based on games at all. When I choose to read a story specifically based on a game I expect to see the game IN the story. For a Pathfinder based book I want to read good stories that embrace the game, not hand wave or ignore it.

The way I see it it, Is it not based on a Game, but on a Fantasy world that uses a Game.


Dave Gross wrote:
cibet44 wrote:
Hephaesta wrote:


And I also agree with keeping the mechanics as close to the game world as possible. While the new magic mechanics in "Wolves" and "Witch" were neat I prefer to be able to see how it fits into the world/game.

This is a must for me as well.

That said, I'm of the "If you can hear the sound of dice rolling, it's not working as a story" philosophy.

I couldn't disagree more. It seems disingenuous to me to write a story using the Pathfinder moniker and not embrace the game in the story. Why get the benefit of using a games name (built in audience of gamers) to only ignore the game itself?

I'm one of the "If I'm reading a story based on a game, I want to hear the dice rolling, otherwise I would have picked up one of the thousand other books in the aisle or in the store" philosophy.

RPGs and novels both tell stories. When a novel is based on an RPG I believe the two genres should be woven together not mutually exclusive. I wish more authors would embrace this instead of shy away from it. I know it's possible to do this. The Paizo APs practically do it already.

The Exchange

1) I love that both the web fiction and the novels let me experience different parts of Golarion. I wouldn't want there to be a lot of doubling back--occasionally is fine, but I want to see someplace new.

2) As some others have said, I think more emphasis on the title and less on the Pathfinder logo is important. While I loved both Salvatore and Weis and Hickman, I reached a point where seeing the FR or Dragonlance logo made me roll my eyes and move to a different section. I think new readers see that serial/game indicator and either think, "I'm not in the in-crowd that will get this," or "This probably isn't top-notch writing," or "Blessed gods, what order do I read these in?" You've already got the quality of authors to match the weight of a beloved Weis and Hickman name, and I think that's more important than the serial logo.

3) I liked the cover art for Winter Witch better than Prince of Wolves. The art for Prince of Wolves seemed almost like a cartoon to me, and said to me, "this book is for a game." The art for Winter Witch made it look like a book I would be interested in regardless of the Pathfinder logo.

4)Orson Scott Card's Intergalactic Medicine Show does book reviews and publishes short scifi/fantasy stories.


1) The novels feel a bit constrained. While, in general, I think modern fantasy is bloated and over-written, lately I've noticed a trend in almost going too far the other direction. It's OK to let the author's explore the settings and characters a bit. I feel like the current novels are rushing through the plot too quickly for us to develop a relationship with either.

2) Filing them with the D&D fiction at bookstores, really. That and kick-butt cover art.

3) Not a great sample size, but looking more broadly at your competitors covers in gaming related fiction, I love the art by Raymond Swanland and Wayne Reynolds. Those always make me pick the book off the shelf and have a look. Same for Christian McGrath, although I haven't seen that he does a lot of game-related covers. He sure does a lot of fantasy and sci-fi covers in general, though. He's all over the place at any bookstore I look at.

4) www.sfsite.com?

5) ... Not at the moment, no.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I do agree making the Pathfinder logo smaller and less featured would likely help. A lot of none gamers are turned off by it, I honestly don't get why I just know they are. I have offered to lend friends and family books and they almost always turn down the FR books I had at the time.

For example on Winter Witch. i would have put the title at the top instead of the bottom. Then at the bottom in smaller text the Pathfinder logo or something.


Dave Gross wrote:
That said, I'm of the "If you can hear the sound of dice rolling, it's not working as a story" philosophy.

That doesn't seem to hold back RA Salvatore and his Drizzt stories. Or any of the classic Forgotten Realm stories. Or the numerous Dragonlance stories.

I want the stories closer to the game, please. If they introduce new rules/mechanics then give me the new rule/mechanic in the back of the book.

That said I will continue to read the stories for nothing else than to get a better feel for Golarion and how the different nationalities interact. That and so far they have been good reads.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Hephaesta wrote:
Dave Gross wrote:
That said, I'm of the "If you can hear the sound of dice rolling, it's not working as a story" philosophy.

That doesn't seem to hold back RA Salvatore and his Drizzt stories. Or any of the classic Forgotten Realm stories. Or the numerous Dragonlance stories.

Those are perfect examples of Stories that don't hold themselves to the "Rules".

Dark Archive Contributor

Hephaesta wrote:


That doesn't seem to hold back RA Salvatore and his Drizzt stories. Or any of the classic Forgotten Realm stories. Or the numerous Dragonlance stories.

With those as examples of stories that stick close to the rules, you'll probably be happy with that aspect of the first two Pathfinder Tales novels.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I don't mind of the books take some liberties, just as long as they more or less feel the same as the game. I mean the combats in novels are never exactly like the game, sometimes people in books lose limbs or get one shooted etc. It makes it more dramatic, so i am fine with it.

As for Winter Witch, the painting thing. I wasn't a big fan of. Not because it wasn't something that couldn't be done in the game. But because it felt borderline epic in power, like wish magic.


Dragnmoon wrote:
Those are perfect examples of Stories that don't hold themselves to the "Rules".

Except where those stories vary from the rules it is (for the most part) sideline to the main story. The two PF novels so far have been centered entirely around where they vary from the rules. The flip books in "Wolves" and the map magic in "Witch". Without those two major deviations from the rules those two novels fall entirely apart.

The original Dragonlance novels were written based off of an actual game campaign. Yes, the later novels centered on Raistlin strayed way off course but the original trilogy was extremely close to the rules. IMHO the better Dragonlance novels were the ones that stuck close to the rules.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the two novels and will continue to subscribe to the novels. Just try not to make the main feature of the story something that isn't in the rules.

Sovereign Court

How about the novels available on Kindle?


I've only recently started Prince of Wolves, so forgive my ignorance.

1. I'd actually like to see less of the game mechanics specifically called out in the books. Yes, the books need to stay true to said mechanics because those are the rules of the world in which the books are set, but they don't need to be described as such. Also, I'm new to PF and don't know much about the campaign world so some of the references in the book are over my head. And there's a section where Varian is doing research and comes across bat guano. He mentions it's a spell component but offers no further information. I knew what it meant, but someone who is new to the books may know nothing about the game or world. I think this might actually keep new readers away as they might feel thrown into the middle of this world they know nothing about. I know some die-hards might not like this, but we're already playing the game, reading the books, and posting on the messageboards. We usually want what we think we want and that may not be what helps the book line grow.

2. & 3. I love the paperback covers for Raymond Feist's Riftwar Saga. Bright, bold colors with simple artwork. Grabbed my attention right away.

4. Not sure I can help here.

5. Take this with a grain of salt because I play the game and love to paint minis, but what about a Reaper Mini/Pathfinder Tales tie-in? It would intrigue me to pick up a novel packaged with a couple of appropriate miniatures I can paint and I'd be willing to pay a premium for it. Of course this only appeals to FLGS customers.

IMHO, FWIW obviously.

Scarab Sages

3. I usually don't read novels based on game settings, but this one from wotc hooked me based solely on the cover art.


I would like to see the New base classes in a story. It not nessicerly Icons just some one that is that class. Mostly Alchemists.

Also more Plane walking stories.

Liberty's Edge

I would like to see a full color childrens book about our favorite goblins trying to ruin Christmas for the villagers! I'm sure there's plenty of room for colorful fun in this idea! :-)


I would really like to see the Pathfinder Tales distributed for download onto Kindle. I thought that I may have heard mention of attempts to make this a reality...any update on the progress?

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

There is no Christmas in Golarion. :-P


James, I haven't read any of paizo's stories, and although I enjoy fantasy and scifi, don't have much time to read them anymore. However, if you could suggest the book you think that would be the proper introduction to your novel line, I will happily purchase and read it, and tell you where it takes me.

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