Woo! Yeah a friend has been playing an Inquisitor and I really REALLY like that class. Probably my favorite of the new batch.
Also, you guys really do have the best art in the biz.
I really approve of the changes! Stay strong Jason and thanks for another great preview!
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Very nice, I like that the eidolon can be summoned as a standard action, that eliminates a lot of awkward issues.
I also like the alchemist's poisoning ability and I love the idea that he'll be able to dispel with a bomb!
The inquisitor change is also good, the swinging benefit was a bit clunky.
Thanks for another nice peek.
Regarding the Summoner:
"He can now summon the ally as often as he likes (provided it has not been banished due to damage recently), but he cannot use his summon monster ability at the same time."
Am I reading this right, when I see that the Summoner cannot have at the same time 'Big E' and the SLA Summoned Critter(s) (of course we are not speaking of the creatures summoned with actual spells)?
This is a HUGE nerf to the Summoner, IMHO (not that it was not necessary...). Of course, the fact that he is not forced anymore to bring a drooling Huge freak in town (always by his side) lessens the nerf a bit.
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Enhanced Cures (Su): Whenever you cast a cure spell, the maximum number of hit points healed is based on your oracle level, not the limit based on the spell. For example, an 11th-level oracle of life with this revelation may cast cure light wounds to heal 1d8+11 hit points.
Um, is it me or does this not seem that great? Unless I'm reading it wrong or not seeing the whole picture. Granted it's nice to do more that 1d8+5, but we're talking only six extra hit points at that level. It basically turns cure light wounds into a single target mass cure lightwhich, being level 11, the oracle will be able to cast four times per day. The only cure spells you could cast that it doesn't out strip would be mass cure moderate, mass cure serious, and mass cure critical, but only because epic levels haven't been covered yet to take players beyond level 20 (or level 40 to outstrip mass cure critical's +40).
I know it makes no difference, but I am going to go ahead and put myself on the list of people who hate the changes to the summoner. I liked it when the SLA was limited to one creature at a time. Now that it is either the eidolon or one of the SLA's I think the SLA is worthless.
The eidolon is more powerful in every way so there is no need for the SLA summons. On the off chance that the eidolon isn't doing the job the summoner can just burn one of his spells and summon something else and keep the eidolon out so he doesn't miss out on the bonuses for having the eidolon around. I think they should have gotten rid of the SLA all together and given the summoner a different ability.
All the other changes look good. So 5/6 isn't too bad. I'm sure these changes make some people happy because you always hear about the summoner being over powered. I didn't get that impression when I was playing the class, but perhaps I am the minority.
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Inquisitor: ... (Judgements) ...The playtest version of this ability improved as the combat progressed. While this was a fun mechanic, it was ultimately rather unwieldy in play and was replaced with a simpler system.
Aww, I loved that mechanic. It reminded me of all of those movies where the hero spends the first half of the fight getting pasted, picks himself up off the floor, spits blood and teeth and then kicks ass.
Still, I'm all for a simple to rule, fast game, and I can always house-rule it back in.
It's looking good Jason - nice work.
I know it makes no difference, but I am going to go ahead and put myself on the list of people who hate the changes to the summoner. I liked it when the SLA was limited to one creature at a time. Now that it is either the eidolon or one of the SLA's I think the SLA is worthless.
I'm currently struggling on this. On one side, the fact that Big E and the SLAs Critters cannot coexist is a big limit to the offensive firepower of the Summoner (as I said, not that the Summoner was weak on the first place...). On the other side, I've recently started to see the big limitations of a Large Eidolon when you are basically forced to bring him alongside forever (I would not even speak of a Huge Eidolon, since I'm not currently GMing at such levels).
Want to enter town ? Good, you have to disguise him somehow (a 15 ft.high, four armed, big headed, green-furred Humanoid with vacue eyes and claws the size of a longsword IS a bit suspicious and scary...). Too bad he is an outsider, and a Hat of Disguise can only change your appearance to that of another creature of the same type (in this case, Outsider...). Poor Eidolon had to keep the guise of a large Earth Elemental - still freakish AND suspicious, but slightly more tolerable for the average guard.
Want to enter a house ? Good luck for an upcoming fight... Big E has to stay in another room.
Want to climb a narrow tower ? I don't even know where to start...
Basically, at the moment, the Summoner of the group I'm GMing has been 'forced' to take Reduce Person (which can luckily be shared on his Eidolon, despite not being a humanoid) just to enter in dungeons and houses. The alternative (dismiss him and re-summon him later) is not even considerable - you can do it only once per day (unless he has been banished due to 'death', in which case you have to wait the following day), and you need 10 consecutive rounds. Not really affordable during a battle.
Of course, Genchi would not be quite happy to be separated from Iaman (who calls him 'Daddy' in a Chris Griffin's tone of voice - well, his Int is the same, so we can say that he IS actually Chris Griffin :D )or being forced not to summon 'Brian' alongside (all his most powerful Summons have always been 'dog-like' themed up until now - Celestial Dog, Celestial Hyena, Hound Archon - so I made-up this little 'Family Guy' joke).
Just my 2c.
I'm very happy with all of these changes, especially the ones made to the inquisitor. The alchemist was my favorite class of the playtest and I'm excited to see there will be new discoveries to work with.
Could you clarify a bit how the bonus spells granted to the witch will work, now that they aren't tied to a familiar? Will she choose a list at level one?
Basically, at the moment, the Summoner of the group I'm GMing has been 'forced' to take Reduce Person (which can luckily be shared on his Eidolon, despite not being a humanoid)...
That's not how it works, unfortunately. You can only share spells with the Eidolon that have a target of "you", such as shield. You can't use share spells to cast spells on the eidolon which could be cast on other targets than yourself.
Inquisitor: ... (Judgements) ...The playtest version of this ability improved as the combat progressed. While this was a fun mechanic, it was ultimately rather unwieldy in play and was replaced with a simpler system.
Aww, I loved that mechanic. It reminded me of all of those movies where the hero spends the first half of the fight getting pasted, picks himself up off the floor, spits blood and teeth and then kicks ass.
Still, I'm all for a simple to rule, fast game, and I can always house-rule it back in.
It's looking good Jason - nice work.
Yeah, I'm conflicted too. I didn't have a problem keeping track of the rounds--I use a laptop at the table--but it was a unique mechanic and I can see how normalizing it might make things easier on DMs.
Zo
EDIT: Forgot to add that I'm not counting chickens until I read the pdf.
For every sneak preview, the APG becomes more and more cemented as a "Must-have" book, right up there with the Core rules.
There is just so many interesting options, and these changes all look solid.
Basically, at the moment, the Summoner of the group I'm GMing has been 'forced' to take Reduce Person (which can luckily be shared on his Eidolon, despite not being a humanoid)...That's not how it works, unfortunately. You can only share spells with the Eidolon that have a target of "you", such as shield. You can't use share spells to cast spells on the eidolon which could be cast on other targets than yourself.
APG Final Class Playtest, page 34:
"Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells."I've always read the bolded sentence as 'in addition' (since it is not written as 'A summoner may cast such spells on his eidolon ...', which would limit the sentence to the previous one - spells with a target of 'You' only). Most builds on the Eidolon I've seen suggest casting Enlarge Person on the Eidolon, too.
I don't exclude that I could be wrong, of course (but I don't think so). Maybe this will be clarified in the final APG itself.
I know it makes no difference, but I am going to go ahead and put myself on the list of people who hate the changes to the summoner. I liked it when the SLA was limited to one creature at a time. Now that it is either the eidolon or one of the SLA's I think the SLA is worthless.
Same here. Well, maybe not worthless, but a great lot less useful than before.
So what if the summoner "floods" the battlefield with critters? I put the floods in quotation marks because with the change to the monster summoning (only one from the class ability at a time), the difference between playtest and final is exactly one: The eidolon. Instead of 1d4 +3 you have 1d4 +2 (if you go with critters from two lists down).
It was nice to have the option of having two companions, especially if you're walking around alone or with a small group. For a bigger group, the summoner isn't that great a concept, anyway (though we have a conjurer in one group right now, and I don't consider the time he takes for his turns excessive)
This could be alright if the summons are now at will (as a standard action) and whenever you summon the one, you automatically dismiss the other.
Aww, I loved that mechanic. It reminded me of all of those movies where the hero spends the first half of the fight getting pasted, picks himself up off the floor, spits blood and teeth and then kicks ass.
Inquisitor: ... (Judgements) ...The playtest version of this ability improved as the combat progressed. While this was a fun mechanic, it was ultimately rather unwieldy in play and was replaced with a simpler system.
That shouldn't be a class ability, though. That's like having a Chosen One class you need to take if you want to be chosen by fate to... do whatever all the prophecies say, or a Love Interest feat where you have to bicker constantly with some companion (even during the time when you save each other's lives) and eventually jump each other.
That stuff belongs to the story, not the mechanics.
That stuff belongs to the story, not the mechanics.
There go the chances of a montage judgement.
Want to enter town ? Good, you have to disguise him somehow (a 15 ft.high, four armed, big headed, green-furred Humanoid with vacue eyes and claws the size of a longsword IS a bit suspicious and scary...). Too bad he is an outsider, and a Hat of Disguise can only change your appearance to that of another creature of the same type (in this case, Outsider...). Poor Eidolon had to keep the guise of a large Earth Elemental - still freakish AND suspicious, but slightly more tolerable for the average guard.
Want to enter a house ? Good luck for an upcoming fight... Big E has to stay in another room.Want to climb a narrow tower ? I don't even know where to start...
Basically, at the moment, the Summoner of the group I'm GMing has been 'forced' to take Reduce Person (which can luckily be shared on his Eidolon, despite not being a humanoid) just to enter in dungeons and houses. The alternative (dismiss him and re-summon him later) is not even considerable - you can do it only once per day (unless he has been banished due to 'death', in which case you have to wait the following day), and you need 10 consecutive rounds. Not really affordable during a battle.
Of course, Genchi would not be quite happy to be separated from Iaman (who...
These are all very good points, and I like that you can summon and dismiss the eidolon at will. I still believe that the SLA is now dead weight. They have given the class a worthless ability that will never be used. They should have just replaced it and something less powerful then the original SLA but more useful then the current incarnation.
Then again, they didn't, and the book is already printed so it is a little late for suggestions. There was no way they were going to please everyone so it was a damned if you do damned if you don't situation to begin with.
Does Wayne Reynolds' art just keep getting more phenomenal or is it just me?
Those pencils are incredible the tiny thumbnails don't do it justice.
Does Wayne Reynolds' art just keep getting more phenomenal or is it just me?
Those pencils are incredible the tiny thumbnails don't do it justice.
He's very good. I hope the pictures in the book are full color though. :) I'm guessing they will be.
Wish I could draw at all.
I'm also kinda bummed about the inquisitor changes, just because it was a unique mechanic that made the inquisitor feel so different in play. Scaling level-based bonuses have been done before, but nothing like the inquisitor's round-based mechanic had ever seen play....
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Unique as it was, it also was a major bummer in play - "Hey guys, was my bonus last round +2 or +3 because I kinda forgot ? I think it was +2 ... No, more like +3 ! Wait, didn't he restart the judgement ? AAAARGH !"
Pebbles. Have as many as your maximum judgement. Put one down to start the judgement. Up to you to remember to add another on your turn.
Pebbles are useful :)
I'm also kinda bummed about the inquisitor changes, just because it was a unique mechanic that made the inquisitor feel so different in play. Scaling level-based bonuses have been done before, but nothing like the inquisitor's round-based mechanic had ever seen play....
Agreed. I liked the mechanic.
Unique as it was, it also was a major bummer in play - "Hey guys, was my bonus last round +2 or +3 because I kinda forgot ? I think it was +2 ... No, more like +3 ! Wait, didn't he restart the judgement ? AAAARGH !"
Well, it is the Advanced Player's Guide. It's ok to have more complicated classes in it.
I'm not devastated by the change or anything, I'm sure the Inquisitor will still be an awesome class to play. (I do hope they can use their Judgments more often though.)
Does Wayne Reynolds' art just keep getting more phenomenal or is it just me?
Those pencils are incredible the tiny thumbnails don't do it justice.
He's very good. I hope the pictures in the book are full color though. :) I'm guessing they will be.
Haven't seen the "Meet the Class(es) of 2010" ads for APG? Full colour goodness for the newbloods!
Well, I am really disappointed with the changes to the summoner; the one summon at a time limit has been working just fine in my games. Now I'm pretty certain that the player of the summoner in our Kingmaker game will want to make a new character because of this. I can't really blame him for this; with the new rule, his summon monster SLA is almost pointless. He either has his eidolon out, or a speed bump.
I am definitely looking forward to this book, my playtest of an alchemist was really fun, and i love the new poison ability.
in our current game i am playing a playtest summoner, and will be switching over to the book as soon as it comes out, but yeah...
while the ability to bring out my eidolon multiple times in a day is pretty much necessary... i just can't think of many situations where i would want to use my summon monster ability instead of my eidolon... so now it seems that the ability is simply there in case my eidolon dies from hit point loss, which in all honesty is fine, eidolons are bruisers, i am just curious if i am understanding it correctly...
still either way its not the biggest loss, i can always pick up some summon monster scrolls or just learn the spells
No way to tell from the preview if the Eidelon still has the 'share slots' or 'no equipment' modifiers. Both of which I really and truly hate. They grate on my sensibilities.
I'm hoping they aren't, but I suspect they are. :(
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IIRC, if the eidolon dies, you can't re-summon him until the next day. So the Summon Monster SLA is basically your backup for the times that your eidolon "dies".
Or, you might be facing a relatively minor threat early in the day that you don't want to potentially waste any of your eidolon's hit ponts on, when your SLA critters can take care of it fairly easily.
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This is only sorta related to the preview, as its talking about the classes, but it probably is more related to the spells preview we'll get in a week or two (however, I may forget the question by then, so I want to ask it now).
Is it possible that we might see a web enhancement or list in an upcoming book with a list of spells from other Pathfinder Sources (like the Adventure Path or Companions) that are usable by the new classes? I'm assuming the upcoming world guide will have this information for the spells it'll have (which from what I've heard is mostly pulled from the 3.5 sources), but we have a year of PFRPG spells now with at least some that would be suitable for the new classes.
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Interesting story: I was running Kingmaker, and my players needed to cross a river. Nobody had swim. Including the serpentine Eidolon.
The summoner suddenly realised he could summon a dolphin at level 1!
So with that in mind he used the SLA to ferry his companions across the river.
The moral of the story:
SLA Summon Monster is worth more than just combat uses. There's more to gaming than just combat.
The changes look really good overall. I also think that it is a good idea to allow summoners to summon their pet multiple times a day and to prevent the summoner from 'flooding' the field with summoned monsters. However, I can't help but point out that this rule seems to just limit the summoner while Druids (who also have a pet) don't have this limit on spontaniously converting their spells into summon spells while their pet is out.
I just hope that there is an alternate version of the summoner class that replaces their summon monster ability with something else. All I care about is the Eidolon, I'd rather not have 'summon monster' at all if I can't use it at the same time as my Eidolon :D
Removing the Summon Monster SLA completlely and replacing it with anything... Skill Focus... would have been better...
No cowor pictchas? :(
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Interesting story: I was running Kingmaker, and my players needed to cross a river. Nobody had swim. Including the serpentine Eidolon.
The summoner suddenly realised he could summon a dolphin at level 1!
So with that in mind he used the SLA to ferry his companions across the river.The moral of the story:
SLA Summon Monster is worth more than just combat uses. There's more to gaming than just combat.
Gotta agree with the versatility. I view it as adding something extra just in case. If you didn't have the eidolon be able to fly, well, the SLA Summon Monster allows you to have some flying creatures, etc... Plus, being able to summon several creatures to either stop up a corridor, or say, surround a baddie can be a plus. Yes, not as good as the eidolon, but it's an extra thing, plus, if your eidolon is out for the count for the day...
The changes look really good overall. I also think that it is a good idea to allow summoners to summon their pet multiple times a day and to prevent the summoner from 'flooding' the field with summoned monsters. However, I can't help but point out that this rule seems to just limit the summoner while Druids (who also have a pet) don't have this limit on spontaniously converting their spells into summon spells while their pet is out.
The summoner can still do the same thing, if he takes the spells. The SLA's are not spells and spells are not limited by the limits placed on the SLA's. Hell the summoner can spam summon spells and still put a high level SLA at a min a level on the field.
For somethings you might want the SLA's more then your Eidolon
I love the cavalier changes. I'm glad that we now know exactly how large the banner has to be and how it must be displayed. That was a serious point of contention for my party. :/
And the inquisitor doesn't have a ramp-up time for his judgments anymore. One of the most well-rounded and, in my opinion, most powerful classes in the game is now even more powerful. Interesting.
EDIT: A little knee jerk. They made it worse and better. Now the inquis can judge at 20 for +5 to AC/+5 to atk/+5 to saves, but now they can't judge for +3 to AC at 1st level.
1 judgment at 1st level for +1 to atk. vs. bard's perform for +1 to atk/+1 dmg or paladin's smite vs. 1 target for +3 to atk +1 to damage. Seems balanced in that regard.
I'm wary of it being topheavy, though. Especially considering that the normal inquisitor at 10th or so level could use judgment once every combat. Let's face it-- an ability that lasts all combat, for most games, is an ability that gets used every combat. Not every GM runs 4-5 combats per day. And with that judgment-every-fight, the old inquisitor could outpace the fighter in both AC and attack bonus reliably thanks to his easy access to magic vestment and magic weapon, greater.
Now, I'm curious whether or not they'll keep the prodigious amount of judgments, make it last a shorter duration, or make it a single bonus that can be 'swapped' etc. etc. instead of what essentially boils down to a swift-action +3-4 AC, Attack and saves for every fight you ever participate in. The only way to get them before they go uber is to surprise them, and of course, the class has access to the Lookout teamwork feat, that functions without actual teamwork perfectly fine, for free...
Oh well. I think I'm the only person who isn't tunnel-visioning the summoner, so this may as well just be gibberish. :P
The changes look really good overall. I also think that it is a good idea to allow summoners to summon their pet multiple times a day and to prevent the summoner from 'flooding' the field with summoned monsters. However, I can't help but point out that this rule seems to just limit the summoner while Druids (who also have a pet) don't have this limit on spontaniously converting their spells into summon spells while their pet is out.
The summoner can still do the same thing, if he takes the spells. The SLA's are not spells and spells are not limited by the limits placed on the SLA's. Hell the summoner can spam summon spells and still put a high level SLA at a min a level on the field.
For somethings you might want the SLA's more then your Eidolon
This is true, but when a Summoner casts summon monster rather than use his specail ability they end up at a lower level than the Druid's summoned monsters. They nerfed the Summoner's regular summon spells so that they match the level that he's casting at rather than the spell level of a full spellcaster. So, a level 20 Summoner can cast Summon Monster VI at best, rather than a Druid's Summon Moster IX. The difference between a CR 8 Dire Tiger and a CR 14 Astra Deva is pretty crazy. I question whether or not the summon spells would even be worth learning.
Edit: Correction, Druids cast Summon Nature's Ally, not Summon Monster. So at lvl 20 they're summoning CR 13 Storm Giants ;)
This is true, but when a Summoner casts summon monster rather than use his specail ability they end up at a lower level than the Druid's summoned monsters. They nerfed the Summoner's regular summon spells so that they match the level that he's casting at rather than the spell level of a full spellcaster. So, a level 20 Summoner can cast Summon Monster VI at best, rather than a Druid's Summon Moster IX. The difference between a CR 8 Dire Tiger and a CR 14 Astra Deva is pretty crazy. I question whether or not the summon spells would even be worth learning.
If that is still the case, they probably aren't. About the only reason to use them would be utility, at which point you have your better SLAs.
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Interesting story: I was running Kingmaker, and my players needed to cross a river. Nobody had swim. Including the serpentine Eidolon.
The summoner suddenly realised he could summon a dolphin at level 1!
So with that in mind he used the SLA to ferry his companions across the river.The moral of the story:
SLA Summon Monster is worth more than just combat uses. There's more to gaming than just combat.
+1
+1+1
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I also agree that the summoner change isn't as "useless" as others have been saying. The SLA ability is now used for backup, versitility, and situations where your eidolon just wouldn't be the right tool for the job (say if you have a Huge eidolon, but are in small tunnels).
On another front, what exactly is the change to the cauldron hex, or is it just the same and was an example of a hex in general.
Director of Game Design
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I also agree that the summoner change isn't as "useless" as others have been saying. The SLA ability is now used for backup, versitility, and situations where your eidolon just wouldn't be the right tool for the job (say if you have a Huge eidolon, but are in small tunnels).
On another front, what exactly is the change to the cauldron hex, or is it just the same and was an example of a hex in general.
Hey there everybody,
Joel here has the basic idea of the summoner change just right. The change was made so that the two became more about versatility and options than raw power. We got a lot of horror stories in the playtest about summoner abuses and took a number of steps to correct them. I think folks will be pleased with the results.
As for the cauldron bit, that is actually a mistake. I thought that was not in the final playtest, so I thought I would throw it in. It is easy for me to get these bits mixed up. Instead, I will give you a list of the patron names (mind you, these are just their concepts, you and your GM must decided who or what your patron actually is).
Agility, Animals, Deception, Elements, Endurance, Plague, Shadow, Strength, Transformation, Trickery, Water, and Wisdom.
Enjoy.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Meh the witch still suffers from the vulnerable familiar problem..I'll stick with the 4Winds version thank you
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Purity: The inquisitor is protected from the vile taint of her foes, gaining a +1 sacred bonus on all saving throws. This bonus increases by +1 for every five inquisitor levels she possesses. At 10th level, the bonus is doubled against curses, diseases, and poisons.
I do like this change as I think the mechanic was a pain for gaming and for my DM (Yeah you hit... Wait is this round 2 or 3? Yeah you missed).
But now I am REALLY wondering what is going to be in store for levels 13+ when the Inquisitor starts to slump in effectiveness (Exploit Weakness and Slayer were simply subpar and now Slayer is moot). I do love the class but switching to a class with a High BaB Progression after level 12 is just too tempting (and unless there are some serious carrots besides spell progression after 12 it will be even worse with these changes).
IIRC, if the eidolon dies, you can't re-summon him until the next day. So the Summon Monster SLA is basically your backup for the times that your eidolon "dies".
That's basically how I see it.
As for the cauldron bit, that is actually a mistake. I thought that was not in the final playtest, so I thought I would throw it in. It is easy for me to get these bits mixed up. Instead, I will give you a list of the patron names (mind you, these are just their concepts, you and your GM must decided who or what your patron actually is).
Agility, Animals, Deception, Elements, Endurance, Plague, Shadow, Strength, Transformation, Trickery, Water, and Wisdom.
Enjoy.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
The witch is looking very good, look forward to see the final product. Funny to see 'Water' and 'Elements as separate though.