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Now I've asked before with others, but everyone seems to think that the paragons are completely balanced with the new Pathfinder system. I completely disagree. Now while I don't know exactly what I'd be doing for them all, I have thought about it and this is what I've come up with so far.
For those who wonder why I did some of the things I did, I based it off of the rulebook changes to the races. They have more than one favored class now, and their paragon should reflect that.
Now are these going to be all completely balanced? Probably not. Especially the paragons with "Unknown" in the update, but these are in accordance to the new rules PF has delivered in their conversion rule download, and the original beta that gave alternate favored classes.
Drow Paragon - Change d6 hit die to d8.
Dwarf Paragon - Add Diverse Training (as per the PF version of the Eldritch Knight PrC) which adds the paragon levels to their Fighter levels and divine spellcasting (as opposed to the arcane spellcasting of the EK) levels for feat prereqs, and add +1 level of cleric at 2nd level. Change ability boost to be "CON or WIS" +2.
Elf Paragon - Change "+1 level of wizard" to "+1 level of wizard or ranger". Change ability boost to be "INT or WIS" +2. Updates, unknown. Maybe add +1 level at 1st.
Gnome Paragon - Change d6 hit die to d8. Change "level of bard" to "level of bard or sorcerer."
Half-Dragon Paragon - Add +1 to existing arcane spellcaster level at 2nd.
Half-Elf Paragon - Add +1 level of existing class at 3rd level.
Half-Orc Paragon - Change d8 hit die to d10. Add +1 level of druid at 2nd level. Change ability boost to be "STR or WIS" +2.
Halfling Paragon - Change d6 hit die to d8. Add +1 level of bard at 2nd level. Change ability boost to be "DEX or CHA" +2.
Human Paragon - Unknown. Maybe +1 existing at 1st level like the elf paragon.
Orc Paragon - Unknown. Maybe add Rage 1/day at 2nd level like their half breed version.
Tiefling Paragon - Add +1 level of existing class at 2nd level. Maybe to 3rd level as well?
All skills will be changed as per the Pathfinder Conversion rules: Acrobatics (Balance, Jump, Tumble), Concentration, Gather Information, Open Lock, and Use Rope is removed, Linguistics (Decipher Script, Forgery), Perception (Listen, Search, Spot), Stealth (Hide, Move Silently).
Not sure on the saves though. Paragons aren't exactly a PrC, but they could be. If so, then all strong saves are +1, not +2, and the progression is faster. For example, humans which normally are +0/+0/+3 at 2nd and +1/+1/+3 at 3rd level, will now be +1/+1/+1 and +1/+1/+2, respectfully.
Be sure to let me know your thoughts.
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I like the paragon ideas. On first look they seem ok.
One thing to consider is that these are very society directed. Your dwarf may be the best damn ballerina wizard in existence but a paragon class will give him an axe and tell him to go defend the border. They should be primarily about the sort of tasks readily demanded of the race. As such I don't really think the Tiefling should get one at all. If there is no body of tieflings that create an expectation of what is the best how can he\she be a Paragon?
Are there good sources for paragon levels beyond Unearthed Arcana?
What do people think?
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I like the paragon ideas. On first look they seem ok.
One thing to consider is that these are very society directed. Your dwarf may be the best damn ballerina wizard in existence but a paragon class will give him an axe and tell him to go defend the border. They should be primarily about the sort of tasks readily demanded of the race. As such I don't really think the Tiefling should get one at all. If there is no body of tieflings that create an expectation of what is the best how can he\she be a Paragon?
Are there good sources for paragon levels beyond Unearthed Arcana?
What do people think?
Oh I'm quite aware of the fact that everything is stereotyped when it comes to paragons. I noticed that when I first was introduced to them. But PF changed them somewhat when they did the beta, like when you saw that fighter OR cleric was a favored class of dwarf, or that rogue OR bard was the favored of halflings. I liked the fact that you got more choices, and my updated paragons simulate that. That, and the updated hit die for BAB (3/4 gets d8, full gets d10, etc). That helped.
I think tieflings have just as much right as all the other races (especially drow which are a +2 LA) to have a paragon. I've seen aasimar paragon's, and they have +1 paladin level on theirs, so it's only fair for the tiefling to have that too. Even seen warforged. I just wish there was more paragons. As for more good sources, not really. At least not official ones. Just have to Google them all, and hope they're still around.I just wish there was an easy way to update the human, elf, and orc paragons. They're the most difficult.
Drow Paragon - Change d6 hit die to d8.
Dwarf Paragon - Add Diverse Training (as per the PF version of the Eldritch Knight PrC) which adds the paragon levels to their Fighter levels and divine spellcasting (as opposed to the arcane spellcasting of the EK) levels for feat prereqs, and add +1 level of cleric at 2nd level. Change ability boost to be "CON or WIS" +2.
- I like the idea behind the diverse training, Increase skill points base of 4, but all other aspects of dwarf should stay the same.
Elf Paragon - Change "+1 level of wizard" to "+1 level of wizard or ranger". Change ability boost to be "INT or WIS" +2. Updates, unknown. Maybe add +1 level at 1st.
- Increase skill points to base of 4, lower hit dice to d6. if adding to it then I'd agree with adding 1st level casting, but as for adding ranger just a waste of time.
Gnome Paragon - Change d6 hit die to d8. Change "level of bard" to "level of bard or sorcerer."
- only thing I would change on gnome is the spells affect any arcane caster level.
Half-Dragon Paragon - Add +1 to existing arcane spellcaster level at 2nd.
- I agree this is the one thing the half dragon is probably missing is the increase in actual spells if they are sorcerers.
Half-Elf Paragon - Add +1 level of existing class at 3rd level.
- Agree
Half-Orc Paragon - Change d8 hit die to d10. Add +1 level of druid at 2nd level. Change ability boost to be "STR or WIS" +2.
- Agree with hit dice change, as for the druid stuff: scrap, leave rest as is.
Halfling Paragon - Change d6 hit die to d8. Add +1 level of bard at 2nd level. Change ability boost to be "DEX or CHA" +2.
- hit dice change is only thing a agree with here.
Human Paragon - Unknown. Maybe +1 existing at 1st level like the elf paragon.
- human doesn't need any changes.
Orc Paragon - Unknown. Maybe add Rage 1/day at 2nd level like their half breed version.
- agree
Tiefling Paragon - Add +1 level of existing class at 2nd level.
- teifling I can go on for days on the changes here only cause my second favorite race, second after elves. but I'd change their HD, BA and Skill points to reflect their outsider origins everything else is fine.
just my 2 cents
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Dwarf Paragon - I like the idea behind the diverse training, Increase skill points base of 4, but all other aspects of dwarf should stay the same.
- Dwarves are now "Favored fighter or cleric" hence why I have them the +1 to cleric and give you the choice of adding +2 WIS if you want, instead of STR (which would stack with the +2 WIS you get as a racial bonus). A lot of dwarves are fighter/cleric multiclass builds too. Since they're fighters though, or even clerics, the skill points being what they were made sense. Maybe a bonus feat to reflect their fighter heritage.
Elf Paragon - Increase skill points to base of 4, lower hit dice to d6. if adding to it then I'd agree with adding 1st level casting, but as for adding ranger just a waste of time.
- I agree to the increase of skill points as a suggestion, leaving out the +1 to wizard, but again the ranger is also a favored class and they count as a full caster now making the +1 to ranger NOT a waste of time. The d8 will stay as per the conversion rules of 3/4 BAB = d8.
Gnome Paragon - only thing I would change on gnome is the spells affect any arcane caster level.
- If you're referring to the illusion aptitude, again it should stay as they are. Gnomes are normally of the illusion arcane school. It makes sense that that's why it benefits only that, and not necromancy, evoker, or others.
Half-Orc Paragon - Agree with hit dice change, as for the druid stuff: scrap, leave rest as is.
- Half-Orc favored class is druid or barbarian. Hence why it's there, and the suggestion of the ability stat change.
Halfling Paragon - hit dice change is only thing a agree with here.
- Again, new favored class is bard.
Human Paragon - human doesn't need any changes.
- I completely disagree. Humans may have it good, but by comparison to all the others, they would be at the worst disadvantage with these changes. They need something. Even if it's another martial weapon proficiency. Perhaps a ranged one this time. Maybe give them a strong fort as well. Or instead of just 10 skills, they get 15. A rogue gets over 20 after all. Or add on medium armor for proficiency instead of just light.
Tiefling Paragon - teifling I can go on for days on the changes here.
- For tiefling, they're outsiders so they get d8 HD regardless. However, the only thing they don't have as per their outsider selves is 8+INT and full BAB. So despite what it says regarding tiefling being arcane users, I'd agree with taking out the +1 existing since they're almost always depicted as rogues, and give them 6+INT instead. It's a small increase, but so's everything else. If someone felt it was unbalanced, they could give them 8+ instead.
are we looking at the same game?
Pathfinder doesn't have favorite classes based on the race anymore, you pick the one for your character that you like.
I was basing my information on that, and using the old 3.5 favorite classes for with the paragon would most likely be.
I don't know what source your using that says that there are 2 different choices for favorite class, please elaborate?
Also paragon classes are about the best of that race, so you want to try and give abilities that fit, increase, or modify their racial abilities first and favorite class second.
Most favorite classes stem from the original D&D game.
Humans could be any of the original 4 classes.
Dwarves where fighters.
Elves where fighter/wizards.
Halflings where Thieves.
later 3.0 and 3.5 expanded that
Humans get a choice.
Dwarves still preferred to be fighters.
Elves got Wizard.
Halfings got Rogues.
since they did that they had to give all the races a favorite class, weather it was iconic of D&D or something that they changed.
If you look at the paragon class special abilities they change , modify or add to the innate abilities of the race, then add a little something to the favorite class. adding to much to the favorite class makes them more inclined to be that class. but all paragon classes should modify the race first!
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are we looking at the same game?
Pathfinder doesn't have favorite classes based on the race anymore, you pick the one for your character that you like.
I was basing my information on that, and using the old 3.5 favorite classes for with the paragon would most likely be.
I don't know what source your using that says that there are 2 different choices for favorite class, please elaborate?If you look at the paragon class special abilities they change , modify or add to the innate abilities of the race, then add a little something to the favorite class. adding to much to the favorite class makes them more inclined to be that class. but all paragon classes should modify the race first!
I'm getting this from the alpha and beta versions of PF that our DM playtested with us. Yes they got rid of it in the print version, but for paragon sake, I added it back to help with the updates.
I like that the PF added in INT for the elf race because while their favoured was considered wizard, everyone called you an idiot if you even considered going that route. Mostly because of the -2 CON. If you had a high CON where that -2 didn't do too much, then fine, but otherwise you were hooped and ridiculed. Elves are actually in the "bad idea for races" in the Wizard's handbook. Not so much now because of the +2 INT for elves and the upgrade to d6 HD for the class.
I agree that the first level of the racial paragon should modify the race person, but after that it's free game.
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I'm currently looking at the Eberron Paragons, and they need to get updated as well, but not by much.
Changeling - Change d6 to d8 for HD. Add, divided ancestry at 1st (can take the human paragon), and "+1 to existing spellcasting level" at 2nd (likely be bard). Not sure about adding that to the 3rd level as well or not. Probably not.
Kalashtar - is good as is for Psion progression. If going alternate Soulknife progression, increase BAB to +1, +2, +3 instead.
Shifter - Add "+1 to existing spellcasting level" at 2nd and 3rd level.
Warforged - Add "+1 to existing spellcasting level" at 2nd.
Class levels representing the supposed "essence" of a race. For example, a dwarf could take levels in dwarf to be dwarfier. It's kind of silly when there are already things like race-specific feats, race traits, alternate racial traits, prestige classes, and just plain roleplaying to play up the "yup, I'm the dwarfiest dwarf to ever dwarf" angle.