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Often players in my group will use spells like Dimension Door or the Cleric's Travel Domain ability to "teleport" out of sticky situations, such as mantacles or some Iron Bands of Binding. I seem to think these two examples are somewhat like equipment, in fact most mantacle items will take up a wrist spot. They argue that becasue of the wording "that you may take items with you" that you can "teleport" out of equipment. Whats your guys opinion on this? And if there are any developers out there that want to chime in I would love to hear it.
Wizards are allowed to teleport out of grapples, and I have always allows it to work that way. The mantacles don't take up wrist slots unless they are magical items, that are worn.
Although a wizard teleporting away an leaving a pack and a staff and a pile of clothes behind would be pretty funny.
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Yep, I'd love to see a mage popping out and leaving behind all his clothes and gear while appearing somewhere else naked.
But yeah, you can use teleport spells and similar abilities to teleport out of binds grapples and entanglements. The fact dimension door doesn't have any somatic or material components makes this really really easy too.
yup, classic usage.
note that if you are grappled, there is a concentration check to use any spell/SLA.
being tied up by rope is still use grappled/pinned condition, so that should apply there,
and it probably should as well for manacles, just finding a number may be difficult.
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That is why I love the teleportation subschool ability Shift. It is a swift action supernatural short range Dimension Door. Grapple me! I dare you! Muahaha!!!
- Gauss
Our group has standard issue anklets of translocation for getting out of grapple. Should be interesting when we convert to complete path rules.
Yep, I'd love to see a mage popping out and leaving behind all his clothes and gear while appearing somewhere else naked.
But yeah, you can use teleport spells and similar abilities to teleport out of binds grapples and entanglements. The fact dimension door doesn't have any somatic or material components makes this really really easy too.
It's just as hard to cast DD in a grapple as it is any spell.
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It's just as hard to cast DD in a grapple as it is any spell.Yep, I'd love to see a mage popping out and leaving behind all his clothes and gear while appearing somewhere else naked.
But yeah, you can use teleport spells and similar abilities to teleport out of binds grapples and entanglements. The fact dimension door doesn't have any somatic or material components makes this really really easy too.
Incorrect.
Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
Only if the spell does not have any somatic components at all and only if you have any material components ACTIVELY HELD IN HAND (not in your spell component pouch) can you even attempt to cast a spell. Since dimension door has neither of these components, it can be cast simply by making the concentration check.
It's just as hard to cast DD in a grapple as it is any spell.Yep, I'd love to see a mage popping out and leaving behind all his clothes and gear while appearing somewhere else naked.
But yeah, you can use teleport spells and similar abilities to teleport out of binds grapples and entanglements. The fact dimension door doesn't have any somatic or material components makes this really really easy too.
Incorrect.
Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.Only if the spell does not have any somatic components at all and only if you have any material components ACTIVELY HELD IN HAND (not in your spell component pouch) can you even attempt to cast a spell. Since dimension door has neither of these components, it can be cast simply by making the concentration check.
Which is generally regarded as next to impossible against a creature that is grappling you, since they're doing so because it's what they're good at. The concentration check is the reason people are terrified of being grappled as a spellcaster, not the material component issue.
It's just as hard to cast DD in a grapple as it is any spell.Yep, I'd love to see a mage popping out and leaving behind all his clothes and gear while appearing somewhere else naked.
But yeah, you can use teleport spells and similar abilities to teleport out of binds grapples and entanglements. The fact dimension door doesn't have any somatic or material components makes this really really easy too.
Incorrect.
Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.Only if the spell does not have any somatic components at all and only if you have any material components ACTIVELY HELD IN HAND (not in your spell component pouch) can you even attempt to cast a spell. Since dimension door has neither of these components, it can be cast simply by making the concentration check.
It is possible he was just referring to the increased concentration check that all spells castable in grapple get.
yep, need Ex and SU to get out of grapple IME, as the Conc check is brutal
the somatic/material component thing isn't supported by all grapple rules, between the magic section and the grapple/pin conditions themself. hopefully will be errata'd in the next printing. the concentration check is 100% clear though, it applies to everything. notably, combat casting gives you a nice +4 bonus to this check.
my sorcerer keeps a Staff of Journeys in off hand all the time for instances like that. don't need concentration to activate an item in hand, freedom of movement then lets you walk away with your move action.
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My Warlock had major problems being grappled. Then I got a Ring Of Freedom Of Movement and now she can Flee The Scene at will!Third Party, Conversion, or straight 3.5?
Concentration was a lot easier in 3.5, just so you know.
Straight 3.5. I'm still playing her!
Honey Snow has taken all the Fey Heritage feats from Complete Mage, so can Dimension Door 1/day as an SLA, so if grappled she needs a concentration check to use it. As an SLA there is no somatic or material component.
The Warlock invocation Flee the Scene combines a short range Dimension Door with leaving behind a figment of herself. The problem is, although she can Flee the Scene with no limit on uses/day, it requires a somatic component, so cannot be used when grappled.
When my DM realised this, times were hard for Honey! Suddenly, the party encountered grappling baddies left, right and centre!
So, damn the expense! Ring of Freedom of Movement it is!
This is why Honey has survived to the dizzy heights of level 15, and I'm really looking forward to level 16, when she gets really good!
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It's just as hard to cast DD in a grapple as it is any spell.Yep, I'd love to see a mage popping out and leaving behind all his clothes and gear while appearing somewhere else naked.
But yeah, you can use teleport spells and similar abilities to teleport out of binds grapples and entanglements. The fact dimension door doesn't have any somatic or material components makes this really really easy too.
Okay, maybe not really really easy and just... possible. :) But to me, possible is really really easy compared to not at all possible. :p
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Sorry for the thread derail, but just for me, would you change her last name to badger?My Warlock had major problems being grappled. Then I got a Ring Of Freedom Of Movement and now she can Flee The Scene at will!Third Party, Conversion, or straight 3.5?
Concentration was a lot easier in 3.5, just so you know.
Straight 3.5. I'm still playing her!
Honey Snow has taken all the Fey Heritage feats from Complete Mage, so can Dimension Door 1/day as an SLA, so if grappled she needs a concentration check to use it. As an SLA there is no somatic or material component.
The Warlock invocation Flee the Scene combines a short range Dimension Door with leaving behind a figment of herself. The problem is, although she can Flee the Scene with no limit on uses/day, it requires a somatic component, so cannot be used when grappled.
When my DM realised this, times were hard for Honey! Suddenly, the party encountered grappling baddies left, right and centre!
So, damn the expense! Ring of Freedom of Movement it is!
This is why Honey has survived to the dizzy heights of level 15, and I'm really looking forward to level 16, when she gets really good!
Ha! : )
If she were part barbarian, maybe!
Well Heck, dimensional hop aside, you can specify a direction and distance without line of sight or line of effect when casting D Door.
This thread quickly got sidetracked, I understand you can use these spells when grappled if you have the components in hand, or if it is verbal only which dimension door is.
My main point is that I don't think there are any rules that support an ability to teleport or dimension door or dimension stop out of your gear. While the spells read you can take items with you, I think the spirit of the rule implies "additional items outside of what your equipment". What if you had a cursed item that you couldn't "put down". could you just dimension door or teleport and chose not to bring it with you? This seems a little broken and outside of what the spells are intended for.
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my sorcerer keeps a Staff of Journeys in off hand all the time for instances like that. don't need concentration to activate an item in hand, freedom of movement then lets you walk away with your move action.
See, I seem to recall Freedom of Movement making it remarkably difficult for my Druid to pull a certain sorcerer out of a collapsed tunnel...
The Sorcerer with Freedom of Movement should have had no problem moving himself out of the collapsed tunnel. :)
Now, if the sorcerer was unconcious, perhaps a cure spell would have been a better choice in order to allow the sorcerer to extricate himself.
Note: I wasn't there, I dont know the details. I am just offering an alternative idea. :D
- Gauss
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Often players in my group will use spells like Dimension Door or the Cleric's Travel Domain ability to "teleport" out of sticky situations, such as mantacles or some Iron Bands of Binding. I seem to think these two examples are somewhat like equipment, in fact most mantacle items will take up a wrist spot. They argue that becasue of the wording "that you may take items with you" that you can "teleport" out of equipment. Whats your guys opinion on this? And if there are any developers out there that want to chime in I would love to hear it.
My main point is that I don't think there are any rules that support an ability to teleport or dimension door or dimension stop out of your gear. While the spells read you can take items with you, I think the spirit of the rule implies "additional items outside of what your equipment". What if you had a cursed item that you couldn't "put down". could you just dimension door or teleport and chose not to bring it with you? This seems a little broken and outside of what the spells are intended for.
The text of the spell is very clear on teleporting with objects.
You CAN bring along objects as long as their weight doesn't exceed your maximum load.
Emphasis on the word CAN, which means you also CAN NOT if that is your wish. Additionally there is a wondrous item specifically geared toward stopping Wizards and the like from teleporting out of cuffs, Dimensional Shackles.
Language in the spell description + existence of special magical shackles to keep people from teleporting out of them = teleporting out of normal shackles is well within the rules. You want your bad guys to keep the teleporters at bay, they need to be properly equipped to handle the job. That is why Wizards go to the special prisons.
PS: I have teleported out of shackles and the DM allowed it with no qualms. But every once in a while you run into someone equipped to deal with magical escape artists. Not every prison or bad guy should have a pair of Dimensional Shackles lying around, but some are sure to be smart enough, experienced enough, and well funded enough to have them and know how to keep a Wizard in place.
my sorcerer keeps a Staff of Journeys in off hand all the time for instances like that. don't need concentration to activate an item in hand, freedom of movement then lets you walk away with your move action.See, I seem to recall Freedom of Movement making it remarkably difficult for my Druid to pull a certain sorcerer out of a collapsed tunnel...
The Sorcerer with Freedom of Movement should have had no problem moving himself out of the collapsed tunnel. :)
Now, if the sorcerer was unconcious, perhaps a cure spell would have been a better choice in order to allow the sorcerer to extricate himself.
Note: I wasn't there, I dont know the details. I am just offering an alternative idea. :D
- Gauss
Which is exactly why i activated the staff, assuming since i was conscious AND the rest of the party had a rope tied to me that it would at the very least, help the party pull me out. but the GM decided it didn't help at all, and since you can't dismiss the spell, i was kind of stuck in the situation. i don't argue with GMs during the game regardless of how much i disagree with them, it just slows down the game and ruins everyone's fun.
Well, again I will disagree. I do not think you can teleport or dimension door out of gear/items. Lets look at the wording of Dimension Door per the Core Rule Book.
" You can bring along objects as long as their weight dosen't exceed your maximum load. "
At first glance this seems to indicate that yes your personal gear is considered "objects". But in the description of the spell it says "you and touched objects". You includes your gear, otherwise you had better be "touching" every little scrap of gear you have, that sword in your holster is not being touched (assuming you are an elf caster and would even be using a sword). Further in the spell it reads you may bring along willing creatures (carrying gear OR objects up to its maximum load) implying that gear and objects are two different things.
In addition the Teleportation subschool on page 210 reads that these spells send creatures OR objects, again indicating a difference (personal gear is not objects in this use).
I would be interested in seeing a developers opinion on this, it seems that "creature" includes gear, and objects is a secondary term used to describe anything in addition to your gear you might want to bring along. Otherwise I would not assume you are "touching" every little thing you have on and random bits of gold and gear might clatter to the ground upon your casting, leaving you with empty pouches and holsters you are "touching".
Actually I have just noted something which answers all my questions, any spell like Dimension Door or Teleport which talks about taking items with you has an item saving throw entry in the spell description. Reading the saving throw entry at the begining of the spell chapter quickly clears the air, as "items" as defined by this entry is not inclusive of gear.
So it seems these spells are worded poorly to mislead readers into thinking you can be selective about what "gear" you bring with you. The word "creatures" when used with teleportation abilities always assumes your gear and personal items. And the mention of "you can bring items" is specific to items outside of your gear you may want to bring with you.
Thanks for all of your points of view on this.
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Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
The above is a legacy of the 3E grapple rules. With PFRPG redefining grapple as "I have your arm, not your whole body," the above doesn't make sense, and it was only present in one part of the Core Rulebook (in the Concentration section, I think). So it's being removed in errata: the "no somatic components while you're grappled" rule shouldn't be in the book.
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The above is a legacy of the 3E grapple rules. With PFRPG redefining grapple as "I have your arm, not your whole body," the above doesn't make sense, and it was only present in one part of the Core Rulebook (in the Concentration section, I think). So it's being removed in errata: the "no somatic components while you're grappled" rule shouldn't be in the book.Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
Where were you when Honey Snow needed you! : )
Just kidding. I like the change; even with a somatic component you'll still need to make a concentration check, so it's still balanced.
To the OP: It seems you have formed your opinion despite all the past experiences and logical arguments laid out. If you want to take the stance that a teleporting doesn't allow you to leave "your own gear or equipped items" behind that's fine. I would then ask you this, "Can you show me any rule excerpt in the core rule book that says Shackles/Manacles become 'my gear or an equipped item' when placed on me?"
Here is the description of Manacles:
Manacles, Standard and Masterwork: Manacles can bind a Medium creature. A manacled creature can use the Escape Artist skill to slip free (DC 30, or DC 35 for masterwork manacles). Breaking the manacles requires a Strength check (DC 26, or DC 28 for masterwork manacles). Manacles have hardness 10 and 10 hit points.
Most manacles have locks; add the cost of the lock you want to the cost of the manacles.
For the same cost, you can buy manacles for a Small creature. For a Large creature, manacles cost 10 times the indicated amount, and for a Huge creature, 100 times the indicated amount. Gargantuan, Colossal, Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine creatures can be held only by specially made manacles, which cost at least 100 times the indicated amount.
I don't see anything that would indicate the manacles become my personal equipped item nor do they seem to take up any body slot on the character they are clamped to. They just happen to be touching me, so I can take them or leave them at my will.
And I submit to you again the Dimensional Shackles which keep people from doing what Lore, DM experience, Player experience, and the Rules of the game seem to be indicating they can do with normal non-magical shackles.
These shackles have golden runes traced across their cold iron links. Any creature bound within them is affected as if a dimensional anchor spell were cast upon it (no save). They fit any Small to Large creature. The DC to break or slip out of the shackles is 30.
And now Dimensional Anchor:
A green ray springs from your hand. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit the target. Any creature or object struck by the ray is covered with a shimmering emerald field that completely blocks extradimensional travel. Forms of movement barred by a dimensional anchor include astral projection, blink, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, etherealness, gate, maze, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar spell-like abilities. The spell also prevents the use of a gate or teleportation circle for the duration of the spell.
The Dimensional Shackles are specifically designed to keep people from teleporting out of them and away from you. These shackles specifically mention their ability to keep creatures from using teleportation magic, which leads me to believe that other, non-magical shackles would also mention something to this effect if it were intended, but they don't.
If you just want to cripple your player's ability to use this trick but aren't willing to properly equip your NPCs when appropriate, there are two easy things you can do. One was already mentioned, a blindfold. The second is equally mundane, a gag. The only component for dimension door is verbal.
A related question:
Do you have to do a concentration check to use the Wizard (teleportation school)'s ability to teleport out of a grapple?
A related question:
Do you have to do a concentration check to use the Wizard (teleportation school)'s ability to teleport out of a grapple?
Shift is (Su), so no Con check is needed. However, you *do* need to be able to see where you are Shifting to, which makes a blindfold (or Blindness) a killer.
That's great! Thanks.
Shadow lord, I am not saying that mantacles prevent u in any way from casting something like dimension door as they are not grappling you. I'm simply saying that if you actually read dimension door or teleport the only reason that they talk about items is because of the saving throw entry for items. Creatures are assumed to include their items. As for why I think the mantacles should go with you, technically if you are mantacled I think you should add mantacles to your character sheet as they are now in your possession. I have seen no actual reason to think u can be selective about the gear on your sheet u can chose to leave behind, no matter if you are wearing mantacles in a slot or not. I agree the wording seems to mislead you into thinking you can be selective, but I implore you to read the entry for item saving throws at the beginning of the spell chapter as I think it will clear up the misleading wording about what is an "item" and what is a creature (which includes all their gear)
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Although a wizard teleporting away an leaving a pack and a staff and a pile of clothes behind would be pretty funny.I don't recall using teleportation, and yet there I was. Alone. Naked.
Fun use of a trap that was an activated dimension door that only transferred living material. Great way to separate an adventurer and their gear. Also, did not effect the undead guards whose whole job was to place the treasure by the door in with the rest of the treasure in the room.
I'm getting Tomb of Horrors flashbacks,
Shadow lord, I am not saying that mantacles prevent u in any way from casting something like dimension door as they are not grappling you. I'm simply saying that if you actually read dimension door or teleport the only reason that they talk about items is because of the saving throw entry for items. Creatures are assumed to include their items. As for why I think the mantacles should go with you, technically if you are mantacled I think you should add mantacles to your character sheet as they are now in your possession. I have seen no actual reason to think u can be selective about the gear on your sheet u can chose to leave behind, no matter if you are wearing mantacles in a slot or not. I agree the wording seems to mislead you into thinking you can be selective, but I implore you to read the entry for item saving throws at the beginning of the spell chapter as I think it will clear up the misleading wording about what is an "item" and what is a creature (which includes all their gear)
I disagree with you. I read the rules you quoted. I understand your argument and can see your point of view but still am not convinced. I think our fundamental difference is opinion of how to handle the manacles when placed on the character; I classify it as an object that is touched by the character, not the character's equipment.
I would like to expand on your train of logic to show some flaws that I seen in your opinion.
1. You say that manacles become my equipment when you put them on me.
2. What if the manacles are attached to a prison wall? Are they still in your inventory or are they inherently part of the wall/prison? And if the manacle is part of the wall/prison, then does that become part of your inventory too?
3. What if the manacles are attended by an NPC, for instance I am cuffed but he is holding the cuffs dragging me around? Are they then in my inventory or in his inventory?
4. What if I am being grappled by a creature, can I teleport out of its grasp? The rules blatantly say I can, and I see very little difference between a creature grappling me and a pair of shackles put on my unwilling wrists. Especially if those shackles are attended by an NPC, such as in question 2. A similarity also highlighted by the fact that grappling, shackles, and rope can all be escaped in a similar manner by the Escape Artist skill.
5. What if I ready an action to teleport as my enemy stabs me with his sword? Is his sword now considered part of my inventory? Or is it a touched, attended item belonging to someone else? And if the sword isn't in my inventory, then why do the shackles if attended belong to me all of the sudden?
Obviously some of these are pretty far fetched. I am just curious as to how you would handle these situations under your point of view.
On a separate note I would also point out Pathfinder's heritage. D&D is the bloodline that Pathfinder came from and while I have not been able to find any 3.5 references the 4th Edition has taken the time to clarify this item. It certainly cannot be taken as rule in PF but it is a decently worded explanation and I do think it's worth noting as a reference point. As it is 4th Edition I will point out again that it has no tangible connection to PF as the 3.5 rules do, but here it is for what it's worth.
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6. What if I sneak a pair of manacles into your pack while you're not looking? :p
And RE: #5 That would make an awesome disarm! Shame the guy holding the sword gets a Will save. At least with Teleport. Doesn't say for Dimension Door. I'm pretty sure Dimension Door should involve a save for held/attended objects, or else it's be way too easy to pop away with the big bad's stuff.
6. What if I sneak a pair of manacles into your pack while you're not looking? :p
Good stuff...LOL. Like I said, some of those are very farfetched. It is only meant to ask the question, are the manacles really mine?
And RE: #5 That would make an awesome disarm! Shame the guy holding the sword gets a Will save. At least with Teleport. Doesn't say for Dimension Door. I'm pretty sure Dimension Door should involve a save for held/attended objects, or else it's be way too easy to pop away with the big bad's stuff.
It would make a pretty good disarm, but I don't think that is how it's supposed to work. I also don't think the manacles have to come with me when I teleport just because someone forced me to wear them.
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In the 3.5 FAQ Skip Williams was asked this question:-
'Can you choose not to bring along an item you carry
when you cast teleport? If you’re manacled, can you teleport
out of the manacles?'
His answer is:-
'The teleport spell states that you “can” bring along objects,
which indicates that it isn’t mandatory. Thus, a manacled
wizard could cast teleport to free herself from captivity.'
This part of the spell description hasn't changed between the editions, so it still applies.
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The above is a legacy of the 3E grapple rules. With PFRPG redefining grapple as "I have your arm, not your whole body," the above doesn't make sense, and it was only present in one part of the Core Rulebook (in the Concentration section, I think). So it's being removed in errata: the "no somatic components while you're grappled" rule shouldn't be in the book.Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
Strictly speaking, it does make sense, if grappling is interpreted as done by whoever initiates a grapple, not the target.