Casting spells that have a multiple day or permanent duration.


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2/5

How does it work if I want to cast a spell that has a multiple day duration or is permanent? Can my character cast prep spells between adventures, or do I have to cast any spells while at the table? Can I sit down and say 'yesterday I cast these spells in preperation for today's adventure'?

Speaking of which and while I'm at it, how does the 2nd level spell 'retrieve item' work if the item is stored in an extrademinsional space, like a bag of holding?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

No, you cannot come into a scenario with spells already cast and a full compliment of spells to cast.

If you want the effects of a spell, you need to cast it during the session.

Not sure on the spell. I'll let someone else try to figure that one out.

3/5

The issue is complicated when you start having things like a ring of counterspells, armor of spell storing, etc. My position as a GM is that such items are "empty" at the start of the scenario.

All spells end at the close of a scenario, so undead minions, extended pass without trace and life bubble, etc. all end, regardless of "logic" (for example, your doing a run through Quest for Perfection), but that's game balance in organized play.

On the plus side of this, staves are considered auto-recharged between scenarios (even if it would be impossible in terms of timeline.)

2/5

Andrew, if I cast my permanent duration spell in one session does it not carry over to the next session?

David, could you explain why you rule that spell storing items start an adventure empty and staffs fully recharge between each adventure? The spell storing items being empty seems kinda harsh. Also, I thought that I read that permanent effects stayed with the character; if you catch a disease you have it until it is cured, but if you cast something with a permanent duration it goes away no matter what? That doesn't make sense to me.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

No, it doesn't. All permanent effects end at the end of a session.

There are 4 exceptions, of which you can only have one permanent iteration of, and those exceptions are found in the 4.2 guide.

Permanent conditions are different than permanent effects of spells.

Really you should read the sections in the Guide 4.2 that covers all this.

3/5

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.
David Haller wrote:
The issue is complicated when you start having things like a ring of counterspells, armor of spell storing, etc. My position as a GM is that such items are "empty" at the start of the scenario.

I don't think this is correct, even in the context of the PFS house rules on what you can keep between scenarios. That is to say it falls in the category of things that you can write on a chronicle and have the DM initial. You obviously wouldn't say that scribed spells are not persistent, and filling a spell-storing item follows a similar procedure in PFS.

When I sit down at a table, I confidently expect the DM to accept the initialed fact that my inquisitor potentially has shield or gravity bow in his cracked purple ioun stone, initialed by the DM when it was put there, so I would call your position unacceptable table variation. This is really not controversial and it is not an area where people should be crying "table variation".

4/5

For the costs of spell storing to rule that they have to be empty at the start of a session seems seriously harsh. Not to mention it differs from how I've seen spell storing items on chronicle sheets are presented (with a spell already in them typically).

As a DM I would let a player have any spell of their own in their spell storing items and would look for them to have paid for any spells stored not on their own lists (or not on their lists at all if they aren't spellcasters)

3/5

Saint Caleth wrote:
David Haller wrote:
The issue is complicated when you start having things like a ring of counterspells, armor of spell storing, etc. My position as a GM is that such items are "empty" at the start of the scenario.

I don't think this is correct, even in the context of the PFS house rules on what you can keep between scenarios. That is to say it falls in the category of things that you can write on a chronicle and have the DM initial. You obviously wouldn't say that scribed spells are not persistent, and filling a spell-storing item follows a similar procedure in PFS.

When I sit down at a table, I confidently expect the DM to accept the initialed fact that my inquisitor potentially has shield or gravity bow in his cracked purple ioun stone, initialed by the DM when it was put there, so I would call your position unacceptable table variation. This is really not controversial and it is not an area where people should be crying "table variation".

That's fine.

My issue would be metagaming the scenario introduction to announce "my item has this-or-that pre-loaded".

I mean, otherwise we'll have Goodberries by the bushel!

5/5 *

David Haller wrote:
On the plus side of this, staves are considered auto-recharged between scenarios (even if it would be impossible in terms of timeline.)

Assuming you can recharge it yourself, of course.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Saint Caleth wrote:


When I sit down at a table, I confidently expect the DM to accept the initialed fact that my inquisitor potentially has shield or gravity bow in his cracked purple ioun stone, initialed by the DM when it was put there, so I would call your position unacceptable table variation. This is really not controversial and it is not an area where people should be crying "table variation".

I don't know if that would work. There's enough of a pattern of "no, that won't carry over" for spells in the rules to extrapolate a no. If you could just sign onto a moving spell effect like your cracked purple ion stone there wouldn't have been the huge issue with masterwork transformation, which the DM could have just signed for.

4/5 ****

But putting a spell in an ioun stone is more like applying a weapon blanch which has been approved of.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Pirate Rob wrote:
But putting a spell in an ioun stone is more like applying a weapon blanch which has been approved of.

and it doesn't decay, so how long ago was it put in there wasn't an issue. It strikes me more like charging a staff, and its not exactly a small investment to pull off.

It just seems like tracking things like this, that needs a dm initial, is a large part of the reason WHY there's no carry over rule in the first place. You need a really good, slam dunk argument for something to be called unacceptable variation and overrule the the dm. I can see the pros and cons of both sides on this one.

2/5

I guess the rule of thumb I would go with on this one is that any sort of effect, be it spell, SLA or SU ability, will end at the end of the scenario. Items, however, are constant, as the character has paid gold for them. For a spell-storing item, I wouldn't even require a signature, since that isn't really a whole lot different from buying a potion or a scroll.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Looking at it both ways, too, I agree, if you rule that the item can not start the scenario with a spell, then it is essentually a large waste of money, even for non-casters. A spellstoring weapon isn't as huge a waste, but I don't think it would nearly be enough the price.

Having the extra spell essentually makes it a limited Pearl of Power. Requiring someone in the party (or buying a scroll) to use a limited resource every scenario basically negates the point of the item.

I'd rule that if it is something your character or someone in te current party can cast, you may begin with it (and someone needs to account for spell costs if there are expensive materials). I wouldn't rule it as something "carrying over" as much as that it was charged at some point as the scenario begins.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

How about contingency or a ring of force fangs? (I know at least one local PC who has the latter, and I've encountered two different enemy spellbooks from which I could have scribed the former, so it'd be nice if it was worthwhile. :/

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Contingency is still fairly useful, (but specifically does not carry over, so you will need to cast it each scenario, but it can last more than a day, which many of the scenarios I've played recently do). Contingency requires an expensive Focus, not a Material Comp, so it's a one time investment. (Freedom of Movement, Lesser Restoration, Cure ____, Neutralize Poison, Deathward, Dimension Door, Resilient Sphere, and Remove Blindness/DeafnessCurse/Disease are all good options). Don't get me wrong, both Permanency adn Contingency are spells I wish worked like they should in PFS, (and the Animate Dead series), but that aside, Contingency as is isn't as bad as people think, I've learned recently, especially if you hold off until after you get a little info on the adventure.

The Ring of Forcefangs is essentually a specialized item of spell absorption, and honestly I can see it being fairly useful without being "charged" to start. That, and the fact that if it is charged, it doesn't negate the incomming spells would actually make me not want it charged, personally.

I'm not really sure it is the same thing at all.


I/We have always gone by the "Spell storing is empty at the start of the adventure"

All spells end at the end of the adventure, so I never thought that spellstoring was an exception.

Also most of the time it's easy to charge it up.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

Just wanted to point out that for contingency you are basically talking Eyes of the Ten+ scenarios, which are highly GM variable anyway.

"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Contingency requires an expensive Focus, not a Material Comp, so it's a one time investment. (Freedom of Movement, Lesser Restoration, Cure ____, Neutralize Poison,
all of these require some form of fancy footwork since contingency isn't on the cleric spell list and none of these are on the wizard spell list. There's several ways to do it, but they aren't particularly easy and the most straightforward (Pathfinder Savant) costs you a caster level.
Quote:
Deathward,
requires fanciness and a Caster Level of at least 12
Quote:
Dimension Door,
requires CL 12
Quote:
Resilient Sphere (requires CL 12) and Remove Blindness/Deafness/ (fanciness) Curse/ (CL12) Disease (fanciness) are all good options)

A level 11 wizard can cast it and there are quite a few good 3rd level spells they can use, so you may see it very briefly before retirement.

Personally I allow it. I'll let all spells with a duration of more than 1 day or stored in items be precast. I don't consider it "carryover" more like "stuff my PC naturally does all the time." If you do have the ability to cast contingency and freedom of movement, there's no way you wouldn't do so. If you have a spell storing weapon there's no reason you would leave it empty. There's a big difference between a permanent enlarge person (banned) and an enlarge person in a ring of spell storing.

If it's a duration rather than stored (contingency) just ask "OK, do you recast it every day or just when it runs out?" So the player either marks off those two spell slots or you just roll D(CL) to randomize how many days it's been since they last cast it.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I know, I was just going through good choices for a Contingency in general. Some of the better options are from different spell lists. When I DM PFS, I always, always give the players the chance to switch out spells and buy reasonible gear after they have learned a little about the scenario (in character) but before they actually leave.

Other games I've played sometimes do this, so roughly half the time a Wiz/Sor could ask the party Cleric/Druid/Oracle to cast a spell for them with Contingency the night before they leave, and many of the spells I mentioned are typical general spell list spells, so assuming there is an appropriate caster in the group, shouldn't be that difficult to do, though it may eat a resorce if there isn't time to rest.

Alternatively, said PC shoud easily have enough money/PA to spare to have an NPC caster do it, too, worst case scenario, and Deathward, Restoration, Freedom of Movement, and Cure spells can easily save both the Wizard's if not the party's lives. Poisons, Curses, Disease, etc, those can at the very least be dealt with after the adventure. But a few PP for a spell vs what is it 8 for a find my body and raise it, . . .

Maybe it's just the way I'm reading your responce, but Contingency itself is a 6th level spell, meaing in most cases, 11th is the first you might have a chance to use it. It' already near the character's retirement, so I'm not sure that spell selection vs how much they might be used is really that important a factor? @ 11th level, your restricted to 1st-3rd level spells anyway, and 4th level at 12th.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

Other games I've played sometimes do this, so roughly half the time a Wiz/Sor could ask the party Cleric/Druid/Oracle to cast a spell for them with Contingency the night before they leave, and many of the spells I mentioned are typical general spell list spells, so assuming there is an appropriate caster in the group, shouldn't be that difficult to do, though it may eat a resorce if there isn't time to rest.

Alternatively, said PC shoud easily have enough money/PA to spare to have an NPC caster do it, too, worst case scenario, and Deathward, Restoration, Freedom of Movement, and Cure spells can easily save both the Wizard's if not the party's lives.

I think you may be misreading contingency

Quote:
You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency.

You can't have someone else cast the spell into your contingency, although you can use a scroll, wand, or stave to do so.

Grand Lodge 4/5

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 3 people marked this as a favorite.

Spell storing devices are empty at the start of an adventure.

4/5

Michael - what about spell storing items from a chronicle sheet that have a spell specifically mentioned as being stored in them already? (I'm asking because I do, in fact, have such an item available for a character to purchase - haven't yet done so but it seemed interesting for a non-caster to potentially purchase especially if there was a way for him to get spells put back into the weapon when/if he triggered the spell that it "came" with (inflict wounds in this specifica case)

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

Michael Brock wrote:
Spell storing devices are empty at the start of an adventure.

Mike:

I know you don't normally explain the reasoning behind rulings (believe me, I understand why) but would you consider an exception here? I completely understand why permanency is banned, because it's... permanent, there's too much potential for abuse. But I'm having a hard time reconciling the fact that items with a 1/week usage are considered 1/scenario with the ruling that you can't have a spell (that you could cast normally) in a spell storing item ahead of time.

I may have just answered my own question - there is probably a sizable percentage of non-spellcasters who would show up with spell storing items that were "filled by the wizard at the last table."

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

Belafon: Bear in mind that a number of scenarios start with some element of travel/downtime ('Murder on the Throaty Mermaid' springs to mind), which a caster PC could use to prepare said items for use.

(Unless Mike/Mark/a VC says that's not what's intended, of course...)

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

Paz wrote:

Belafon: Bear in mind that a number of scenarios start with some element of travel/downtime ('Murder on the Throaty Mermaid' springs to mind), which a caster PC could use to prepare said items for use.

(Unless Mike/Mark/a VC says that's not what's intended, of course...)

Indeed, but there are also quite a number that start with "Venture Captain Drandle Dreng summons you..." and send you right out into Absalom (or Magnimar, Sothis, etc.) the same day. It just doesn't make sense that a magus with a spell storing weapon (for example) would keep it empty until the day a Venture Captain gives him a mission. As I said above I understand why a fighter with a spell storing weapon shouldn't be able to get a spell in it until he meets up with a friendly caster.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Maybe Pathfinder Lodges have a standing order prohibiting loaded weapons in the barracks. ;-)

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Paz wrote:
Maybe Pathfinder Lodges have a standing order prohibiting loaded weapons in the barracks. ;-)

It was either that or ban alcohol, and we know which one of those wasn't going to happen.


Belafon wrote:


I may have just answered my own question - there is probably a sizable percentage of non-spellcasters who would show up with spell storing items that were "filled by the wizard at the last table."

This is what I have seen cause a problem in the past.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Last session, I used a haunt siphon on a particularly troublesome haunt, and filled the siphon. I didn't use the newly-created negative energy splash weapon, so I had the GM note on my Chronicle that the siphon was filled

If a player now shows me that her most recent Chronicle included a GM note that her PC's spell-storing device was "filled by a wizard," I will, with some reluctance, inform her that her device starts the adventure empty.

Dark Archive 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
Thefurmonger wrote:
Belafon wrote:


I may have just answered my own question - there is probably a sizable percentage of non-spellcasters who would show up with spell storing items that were "filled by the wizard at the last table."
This is what I have seen cause a problem in the past.

This ruling may be enough of a functional change that some magi or EK builds may want to change what expensive enchantment they have on a weapon. Would they be eligible to, Mike?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
uzaithemonki wrote:

How does it work if I want to cast a spell that has a multiple day duration or is permanent? Can my character cast prep spells between adventures, or do I have to cast any spells while at the table? Can I sit down and say 'yesterday I cast these spells in preperation for today's adventure'?

Speaking of which and while I'm at it, how does the 2nd level spell 'retrieve item' work if the item is stored in an extrademinsional space, like a bag of holding?

All spells (including permanent ones) expire at the end of a scenario. There is no provision for precast spells prior to a scenario.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:

Last session, I used a haunt siphon on a particularly troublesome haunt, and filled the siphon. I didn't use the newly-created negative energy splash weapon, so I had the GM note on my Chronicle that the siphon was filled

If a player now shows me that her most recent Chronicle included a GM note that her PC's spell-storing device was "filled by a wizard," I will, with some reluctance, inform her that her device starts the adventure empty.

Your GM was in error. Again all spells expire at the end of a scenario. No exceptions are given in the guidelines or additional resources.

5/5 *

LazarX wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:

Last session, I used a haunt siphon on a particularly troublesome haunt, and filled the siphon. I didn't use the newly-created negative energy splash weapon, so I had the GM note on my Chronicle that the siphon was filled

If a player now shows me that her most recent Chronicle included a GM note that her PC's spell-storing device was "filled by a wizard," I will, with some reluctance, inform her that her device starts the adventure empty.

Your GM was in error. Again all spells expire at the end of a scenario. No exceptions are given in the guidelines or additional resources.

Haunt siphon is an item not a spell. We track item usages as it is now (e.g. wand/staff charges). I don't see why it wouldn't be the same with a siphon.

The Exchange 5/5

LazarX wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:

Last session, I used a haunt siphon on a particularly troublesome haunt, and filled the siphon. I didn't use the newly-created negative energy splash weapon, so I had the GM note on my Chronicle that the siphon was filled

If a player now shows me that her most recent Chronicle included a GM note that her PC's spell-storing device was "filled by a wizard," I will, with some reluctance, inform her that her device starts the adventure empty.

Your GM was in error. Again all spells expire at the end of a scenario. No exceptions are given in the guidelines or additional resources.

I have no irons in this fire, but I would like to point out that a haunt siphon is not a spell (it's an item). So, saying "all spells expire at the end of a scenario" would be like me saying "all damage is healled at the end of a scenario".

edit: ninja'd by CRobledo! I type to slow!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Haunt siphon is like the rules for a spell storing ring. Both start empty at the beginning of a scenario. Simmilarly with spell storing rings you can't write down... "Wizard put a fireball in it." on your Chronicle sheet.

The Exchange 5/5

LazarX wrote:
Haunt siphon is like the rules for a spell storing ring. Both start empty at the beginning of a scenario. Simmilarly with spell storing rings you can't write down... "Wizard put a fireball in it." on your Chronicle sheet.

Interesting... so you are saying that the Haunt siphon is reset? Empty?

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

LazarX wrote:
Haunt siphon is like the rules for a spell storing ring. Both start empty at the beginning of a scenario.

Problem is, that means a single haunt siphon can damage an infinite number of haunts, so you never need to buy another one.

The Exchange 5/5

Jiggy wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Haunt siphon is like the rules for a spell storing ring. Both start empty at the beginning of a scenario.
Problem is, that means a single haunt siphon can damage an infinite number of haunts, so you never need to buy another one.

this could reflect into Ioun stones that absorb spells - they never burn out!

My guess is this is not going to fly. The Haunt Siphon gets used, absorbs the haunt and becomes a 1d6 negitive energy grenade. Like the write-up says.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
nosig wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Haunt siphon is like the rules for a spell storing ring. Both start empty at the beginning of a scenario. Simmilarly with spell storing rings you can't write down... "Wizard put a fireball in it." on your Chronicle sheet.
Interesting... so you are saying that the Haunt siphon is reset? Empty?

My mistake, no it means that the siphon is used.... gone. You used it to damage or destroy a haunt so you got your use out of it.

The Exchange 5/5

LazarX wrote:
nosig wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Haunt siphon is like the rules for a spell storing ring. Both start empty at the beginning of a scenario. Simmilarly with spell storing rings you can't write down... "Wizard put a fireball in it." on your Chronicle sheet.
Interesting... so you are saying that the Haunt siphon is reset? Empty?
My mistake, no it means that the siphon is used.... gone. You used it to damage or destroy a haunt so you got your use out of it.

Try this.

A spell absorbing Ioun stone absorbs it's last spell, burns out and becomes... a burned out Ioun stone. Write it on the Chronicle.
The Haunt Siphon absorbs a haunt and becomes... a green Haunt Siphon (1d6 negitive energy bomb). Write it on the Chronicle.
Why is this hard? and how does this relate to "all spells expire at the end of a scenario"?

Grand Lodge 4/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rycaut wrote:
Michael - what about spell storing items from a chronicle sheet that have a spell specifically mentioned as being stored in them already? (I'm asking because I do, in fact, have such an item available for a character to purchase - haven't yet done so but it seemed interesting for a non-caster to potentially purchase especially if there was a way for him to get spells put back into the weapon when/if he triggered the spell that it "came" with (inflict wounds in this specifica case)

If it is a spell storing item that has a spell specifically mentioned as being stored in them, then it sounds like that Chronicle sheet just got much better and in line with people asking for interesting things be found on Chronicles.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Paz wrote:

Belafon: Bear in mind that a number of scenarios start with some element of travel/downtime ('Murder on the Throaty Mermaid' springs to mind), which a caster PC could use to prepare said items for use.

(Unless Mike/Mark/a VC says that's not what's intended, of course...)

If there is some element of travel, it is fair game for a caster PC to fill a spell storing item if they are able to do so.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

What about scenarios that start 'After several weeks on the road...'?

Grand Lodge 4/5

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
TetsujinOni wrote:
Thefurmonger wrote:
Belafon wrote:


I may have just answered my own question - there is probably a sizable percentage of non-spellcasters who would show up with spell storing items that were "filled by the wizard at the last table."
This is what I have seen cause a problem in the past.
This ruling may be enough of a functional change that some magi or EK builds may want to change what expensive enchantment they have on a weapon. Would they be eligible to, Mike?

Yes as long as the GM notes it and it is a one time change.

Dark Archive

LazarX wrote:
nosig wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Haunt siphon is like the rules for a spell storing ring. Both start empty at the beginning of a scenario. Simmilarly with spell storing rings you can't write down... "Wizard put a fireball in it." on your Chronicle sheet.
Interesting... so you are saying that the Haunt siphon is reset? Empty?
My mistake, no it means that the siphon is used.... gone. You used it to damage or destroy a haunt so you got your use out of it.

Since you haven't qouted any relevant rule on this, and you seem to only be a PFS player and not a campaign admin, I see no reason to abide by this logic.

Magic items in PFS work exactly like they say they work. Haunt siphons have nothing to do with spells, so PFS special rules about spells don't apply. Just like I don't need a GM to sign off on how many charges of my CLW wand I use, I don't need a GM to sign off when my haunt siphon becomes a negative energy grenade. Players who have the GM sign off on it are going the extra distance to show that they're items are legitimate.

Not allowing a character to use a legal magic item that they have purchased would be against the rules of PFS.

Dark Archive

Max Sharpe wrote:
What about scenarios that start 'After several weeks on the road...'?

That seems to very clearly fall under "some element of travel"

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Michael Brock wrote:
Rycaut wrote:
Michael - what about spell storing items from a chronicle sheet that have a spell specifically mentioned as being stored in them already? (I'm asking because I do, in fact, have such an item available for a character to purchase - haven't yet done so but it seemed interesting for a non-caster to potentially purchase especially if there was a way for him to get spells put back into the weapon when/if he triggered the spell that it "came" with (inflict wounds in this specifica case)
If it is a spell storing item that has a spell specifically mentioned as being stored in them, then it sounds like that Chronicle sheet just got much better and in line with people asking for interesting things be found on Chronicles.

So just to clarify, an item that holds "charges" (in particular, like a staff) would carry over from scenario to scenario?

Grand Lodge 4/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Yes

Silver Crusade 2/5

And a ring of counterspell? It doesn't ever cast something out of it, the spell just sits there.

3/5

Ring of Counterspell would be empty at the start of the scenario.

Here's the rationale: the ring doesn't "just sit there" - the character has a "life" beyond the time spent in-scenario (hence day job rolls), and it's certainly *possible* the ring was used earlier in the very day the character was called to the Grand Lodge (or wherever).

From a mechanical standpoint, it's simple action economy: spell storing items would effectively "bump up" the character's challenge rating equivalent (he or she can do more in a given interval of time), so it's best disallowed from a game management perspective (in the same way one can't assume that, say, a character has cast an extended Life Bubble the day before, thereby gaining an "extra" high-level spell slot, at least for day one of the scenario).

Considering that most PFS scenarios take place within a single day, allowing long-term pre-buffs and loaded spell storing items from the previous day improves the character for *that* day. It's unbalancing.

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