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There's the age old problem of 'magic does everything' and 'why can't mundanes have fun too?'.
My solution is this:
No mundanes.
It'd require some redesign, but the premise herein is that after a certain level, everyone is magical. You don't have to cast spells, but there's enough fantastic stuff out there that you start picking up some of your own regardless of your preferred style.
There's no such thing as a mundane fighter. Mundane fighters are NPCs that stay in towns and become guards and soldiers. Player fighters become empowered by the elements, make pacts with deities for the power to perform unearthly feats and so on.
Barbarians are already slightly supernatural, but we can open that up even more. Let them march into war with hosts of their ancestors at their back, a rage-driven maelstrom of chaos, etc, etc. Let their shouts call down storms and their strikes sunder the earth!
The ninja is already a mystic rogue and gets crazy tricks. That's a step in the right direction.
I envision a game aesthetic something like this:
Levels 1-6: Your fighters are stalwart warriors and such, alongside the mages that are constantly worried about their meagre amount of magic. Basically, as is right now.
Levels 7-12: Mundane classes are starting to take their first steps into magic, gaining the fundamental fantastic powers that will define them.
Levels 12+: Everyone is just as magical as each other. Mundanes simply have no place here. The player characters are mystic champions, on the path of weaving themselves into myth and legend. Fighters wield blades with skill enough to cut spells in twain. Rogues dance on the edge of reason, slipping between dimensions as they evade the gaze of space and time.
Level 20: If you want to refuse the call of legend, pack your things and go home. It's all magic all the way from here on, be it by sword or spell.
Addendum: This is not to say mystically empowered mundanes should take over the stomping ground and wizards have to go cry in a corner. That's just as bad as letting wizards make fighters feel like they're worthless! Everyone should bring equivalent impact to the game, albeit in different ways.
Hmm. I can't move a post on my own, can I?
It involves some of that assumption, but mostly all that does is increase the numerical values of the mundane classes. It doesn't let them do as dynamic things as casters.
I like this topic. We get lots of "I want to run a Low/no magic campaign", but few "I want to run a High magic game" topics.
While I've never played a TOB class, they do seem to be what you are looking for. If that's not your cup of tea and you want to keep the nonmagical classes you might try Gestalt. Make 1 class martial and 1 class magical.
Incidentally, I do play a lot of gestalt.
So, kinda like many Video Game RPGs?
stupid question what is a ToB?
Tome of Battle. wiki article
More like anime and mythology.
I like this idea, as I've never really understood how anything can be mundane in a world where magic exists as it does in D&D/PF. Just because something isn't Magic-with-a-capital-M (i.e. the stuff wizards do) doesn't mean it can't be magic-with-a-little-m (e.g. supernatural abilities or just stuff that would be impossible IRL).
IMO, a lot of what makes the fighter and rogue weaker is the desire to keep them "mundane."
More like anime and mythology.
I like this idea, as I've never really understood how anything can be mundane in a world where magic exists as it does in D&D/PF. Just because something isn't Magic-with-a-capital-M (i.e. the stuff wizards do) doesn't mean it can't be magic-with-a-little-m (e.g. supernatural abilities or just stuff that would be impossible IRL).
IMO, a lot of what makes the fighter and rogue weaker is the desire to keep them "mundane."
Well, those too... a lot of Video Games have a "Everyone can cast spells, but not everyone is good at it".
Anime; Naruto with magical Ninja, Fairy Tail with Kung-Fu Wizards, Bleach with shinigami, hollow, etc...
Yeah, truely mundane Heroes and Villains are very rare in fantastic settings.
Bleach is a good example. There's the zanpakuto and the kido. Theoretically any shinigami can use both, but some specialize in one or the other, but neither is mundane.
This is the approach that Earthdawn took. It was an interesting game concept, but not a lot of fun to play.
Well, I wouldn't push it as far as 4th edition did, but the basic idea is that something being cool and thematic but impossible/magical/supernatural/whatever shouldn't mean a fighter couldn't do it.
This is the approach that Earthdawn took. It was an interesting game concept, but not a lot of fun to play.
I got a very Earthdawn vibe when i read the OP also. I and my group found it to be an enjoyable enough style and had a lot of fun with it. (sorry it was not fun for you)
I'm for this. My normal playstyle is 3.5/PF hybrid already, and the Warblade and Swordsage have pretty much replaced the Fighter and Monk already. I'd been toying with having a second alternate option for Swordsage that lets them lose the unarmed Wis-to-AC, changes their Maneuvers and class abilities to Int- or Cha-based, and exchanges their Monk unarmed progression for Sneak Attack progression.
This is one for the homebrew forum.
While there might be a few folks here that think that everyone should me mighty and magical, you'd be dwarfed by the outcry if Paizio were to wake up this morning and announce that Fighters and Rouges would simply be removed from the game.
Because despite all the theorycrafting that goes on here why Fighters and Rouges are such "useless" characters, there seem to be a large amount of people who insist on having fun using both characters to great effect.
I certainly dont think the OP is suggesting removing mundane characters from the game, but there are always optional rules. For instance, we have the ninja, which adds a bit if 'magic' to the rogue.
Like others have said, the obviously choice is to use tome of battle characters in place of the mundane ones, or give normal characters the ability to use Tome of Battle manuevers.
Another option is to add something relatively equal to every class, that gives a bit more of a magic touch to each class. For example, the Yuxia archetype from super genius games' genius guide to martial archetypes is a favorite in my game. It comes as part of a system to replace the over relyance ob magic items in game, but it works just fine with regards to this. The Yuxia would add a little wushu mystacism to any class, and has abilities that are useful no matter what you do.
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Yep. No removing classes.
Making them magical. All of them. Magic fighter. Magic barbarian. Magic rogue. MAGIC COMMONER!
(seriously, if someone has more than ten levels of commoner, I'll let that guy have a mystic farm)
despite all the theorycrafting that goes on here why Fighters and Rouges are such "useless" characters, there seem to be a large amount of people who insist on having fun using both characters to great effect.
This. I for one kind of enjoy being batman in the justice league (non magical human amongst basicly gods).
I just finished a playing a fighter in a game that ended at 11th (not super high level i know but respectably high) and the ammount of damage he was dishing out felt pretty damn magical to me ;)
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you could make an enjoyable game where eveyone get oodles of magic powers. It just wouldn't be for everyone.
Best of luck with it.
- Torger
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Here's an easy fix: magic items! (I know, crazy new idea!)
There are alot of items that give even the most mundane commoner awesome powers, if only people would buy/use them. Ring of telekinesis, wings of flying, hat of disguise, boots of teleportation, and bag of tricks are just some examples. Reduce their cost, make them unsellable, make them slotless, give inherent bonuses to replace the usuals (I'm looking at you ring of deflection), or just add the effects to items they already have. They're lots of fun, use them.
Alternatively, one idea I've had is giving each character a sorcerer bloodline or cleric domain. Make the bonus spells 1/day spell-like abilities, and watch as that guy who always plays the fighter rages as he figures out spellcasting. If the players are up to it it will add alot, and get your characters more involved in their ancestry/religion.
By making classes magical, I don't necessarily mean giving everyone spells. I know some players that like playing fighters specifically so they don't have to think about special abilities, let alone the complexity that is spellcasting.
I know one player in particular would be happy with a class that had nothing but 'your attacks do +2 damage' at each level and nothing else.
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By making classes magical, I don't necessarily mean giving everyone spells. I know some players that like playing fighters specifically so they don't have to think about special abilities, let alone the complexity that is spellcasting.
I know one player in particular would be happy with a class that had nothing but 'your attacks do +2 damage' at each level and nothing else.
If he's happy being completely mundane, why change it? The point is for you and your players to have fun. If that is being accomplished with mundane PCs leave it be.
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Could be a really good way to introduce a lot of new and different kinds of magic into the game. Like with the ancestral spirits and ki, you could have sympathetic magic, shouting, ritual magic almost anyone could do, complex rituals you would need commoners/experts/etc to do(dancers, musicians, artists, animal handlers and so on), varying grades of psionic ability, oaths and other powers of one's personal word, attunement with one's environment be it urban or natural, luck manipulation...
Posting from phone so sloppy
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By making classes magical, I don't necessarily mean giving everyone spells. I know some players that like playing fighters specifically so they don't have to think about special abilities, let alone the complexity that is spellcasting.
I know one player in particular would be happy with a class that had nothing but 'your attacks do +2 damage' at each level and nothing else.
Weapons and Armors that Level up with you? BaB also apply to Damages? Weapons that can get more +X without being Magical (À la Suikoden)?
Weapons and Armors that Level up with you? BaB also apply to Damages? Weapons that can get more +X without being Magical (À la Suikoden)?By making classes magical, I don't necessarily mean giving everyone spells. I know some players that like playing fighters specifically so they don't have to think about special abilities, let alone the complexity that is spellcasting.
I know one player in particular would be happy with a class that had nothing but 'your attacks do +2 damage' at each level and nothing else.
Perhaps a pool not unlike the Bladebound Magus's, based on the Fighter/whatever's level, from which s/he can add enhancements or other features (change the weapon's damage type, add/change silver/cold iron/adamantine/etc., and so forth), things like that?
If he's happy being completely mundane, why change it? The point is for you and your players to have fun. If that is being accomplished with mundane PCs leave it be.By making classes magical, I don't necessarily mean giving everyone spells. I know some players that like playing fighters specifically so they don't have to think about special abilities, let alone the complexity that is spellcasting.
I know one player in particular would be happy with a class that had nothing but 'your attacks do +2 damage' at each level and nothing else.
Because lack of options (even if that's done on purpose) does not equal mundane.
It's perfectly possible to change some of those Ex to Su without making it any more complicated. It's the mindset that a fighter has to be mundane that's getting in the way of allowing the fighter to have nice stuff (IMO). Again though, that nice stuff might be magical, but it doesn't have to mean more options or more complexity.
Some info on Suikoden if they are wanted/needed.
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This is the approach that Earthdawn took. It was an interesting game concept, but not a lot of fun to play.I got a very Earthdawn vibe when i read the OP also. I and my group found it to be an enjoyable enough style and had a lot of fun with it. (sorry it was not fun for you)
I thought of Earthdawn as well when I saw and read through this. As a matter of fact I just introduced some friends to it and we play it sometimes in addition to PF. They really enjoy the freedom of it and our Warrior loves having all the special abilities. I play a mage and love not running out of my prepared spells and being able to wear armor with no spell failure. Its the only system I almost exclusively take human in.
But we do love the there is no mundane and everyone has magic in same way even the NPCs have some sort of magic(usually linked to their chosen profession and is called half-magic)
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Paizo seems to be very reluctant to add "mundane magic" (and by that, I mean cool stuff a la ToB), which is a shame, IMO. I'm sure they would do a great job if they decided to give martials shiny toys.
Fighter are very limited because even at 20th level, they can't break the realm of realism withoutlots of grognards crying.
A wizard can fly, shoot fireballs, control the weather and clone dragons, but the moment a fighter jumps 20ft while wearing full plate or tries to trip a giant, it's suddenly considered too absurd.
At 20th level, you should e capable of deflecting rays with your sword, judo throwing dragons, hitting multiple enemies with a single slash of your blade, intimidating undead and stuff like that, but as it's right now, a fighter can't even walk 10 feat and make a fuull attack unless he has the right archetype (meanwhile, summoners are pouncing ever since 1st level)
Paizo seems to be very reluctant to add "mundane magic" (and by that, I mean cool stuff a la ToB), which is a shame, IMO. I'm sure they would do a great job if they decided to give martials shiny toys.
Fighter are very limited because even at 20th level, they can't break the realm of realism withoutlots of grognards crying.
A wizard can fly, shoot fireballs, control the weather and clone dragons, but the moment a fighter jumps 20ft while wearing full plate or tries to trip a giant, it's suddenly considered too absurd.
At 20th level, you should e capable of deflecting rays with your sword, judo throwing dragons, hitting multiple enemies with a single slash of your blade, intimidating undead and stuff like that, but as it's right now, a fighter can't even walk 10 feat and make a fuull attack unless he has the right archetype (meanwhile, summoners are pouncing ever since 1st level)
One of their stated problem is that; new classes and rules must be balanced compared to/with the core classes and rules.
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One of their stated problem is that; new classes and rules must be balanced compared to/with the core classes and rules.
I don't see how this stops them from giving more options to martial classes, be it in the form of new combat maneuver, cool feats that scale with level, more unique rage powers, rogue talents that are actually useful, suggested skill uses (that do not require a feat to do), etc.
Also, it seems silly claiming that new classes/mechanics must be balanced with core classes/mechanics when CRB is probably the least balanced book. That's where we find Wizards and Rogues, Druids and Monks. Not to mention how new classes effectivelly made core ones obsolete. Poor Roger The Rogue can't compete with Ninja Nick or Vivisectionist Vivian.
I honestly believe that if Paizo devs really wanted, they could make a wonderful job with a PF equivalent of ToB. And they should really consider doing so, because the one we have right now (UC) is very underwhelming, to say the least.
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A wizard can fly, shoot fireballs, control the weather and clone dragons, but the moment a fighter jumps 20ft while wearing full plate or tries to trip a giant, it's suddenly considered too absurd.
The fighter doing the jump as an issue cracks me up. Why? Folks can suspend disbelief that a dragon exists (and magic) - which is a stretch of the imagination - and can suspend disbelief that a dragon could actually achieve flight with the sizes given it (it's magic!)... but a fighter jumping 20' in full plate? No way! You've gone too far!
You hit the nail on the head, soundly.
Nifty idea. Maybe make Fighter an NPC class?
One of their stated problem is that; new classes and rules must be balanced compared to/with the core classes and rules.I don't see how this stops them from giving more options to martial classes, be it in the form of new combat maneuver, cool feats that scale with level, more unique rage powers, rogue talents that are actually useful, suggested skill uses (that do not require a feat to do), etc.
Also, it seems silly claiming that new classes/mechanics must be balanced with core classes/mechanics when CRB is probably the least balanced book. That's where we find Wizards and Rogues, Druids and Monks. Not to mention how new classes effectivelly made core ones obsolete. Poor Roger The Rogue can't compete with Ninja Nick or Vivisectionist Vivian.
I honestly believe that if Paizo devs really wanted, they could make a wonderful job with a PF equivalent of ToB. And they should really consider doing so, because the one we have right now (UC) is very underwhelming, to say the least.
They would need to revamp a lot of the system, which mean a new Edition, something they said they don't plan to do for a while...
Nothing is stopping people from creating their own system/mechanique/etc...
Nifty idea. Maybe make Fighter an NPC class?
Doesn't really solve or even touch the issue, just shoves it off to be ignored.
Nifty idea. Maybe make Fighter an NPC class?
There might also be; "if you give some Magic to the Fighting, you should give some Fighting to the Magical".
Nifty idea. Maybe make Fighter an NPC class?There might also be; "if you give some Magic to the Fighting, you should give some Fighting to the Magical".
Cleric, Druid, Inquisitor, Magus...
Nifty idea. Maybe make Fighter an NPC class?There might also be; "if you give some Magic to the Fighting, you should give some Fighting to the Magical".
Cleric, Druid, Inquisitor, Magus...
Problem with them is that; depending on the PB and build, they might need to be either good with magic or good at combat or suck at both.
They would need to revamp a lot of the system, which mean a new Edition, something they said they don't plan to do for a while...
I think you misunderstand me. I'm not asking for a maneuver system like ToB. When I say "cool stuff a ala ToB", what I mean is "really cool stuff that mundane/martial character can pull off without needing to invest 3~4 feats to do it!"
Dazzing Display is a nice example of a feat that gives cool stuff and expands what martials can do. I personally love Cornugon Smash simply because it gives the character something else to do. Antagonize (the Diplomacy option) is cool, even the Intimidate option would be okay if it wasn't so atrociously written. Dirty Trick and Steal were added post-CRB, and they work (I've never used Steal in game, but Dirty Trick is a nice addition)
Nothing is stopping people from creating their own system/mechanique/etc...
But that does not help if you play in PFS.
The fighter doing the jump as an issue cracks me up. Why? Folks can suspend disbelief that a dragon exists (and magic) - which is a stretch of the imagination - and can suspend disbelief that a dragon could actually achieve flight with the sizes given it (it's magic!)... but a fighter jumping 20' in full plate? No way! You've gone too far!
Best thing about it? Dragons' flight is not even super-natural! It's a (Ex) ability.
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The first and simplest thing that comes to mind is converting half of all treasure by GP value into mojo points which can be spent on virtual magic items however the player wishes.
A character might end up with a bag of holding mouth, an imaginary carpet of flying, natural armour that really is natural or just magic fists.
Feats could help a lot.
You could allow new feats based on the spell-like ability rogue talents expanded to all characters and spell-lists, archetypes which swap feat-like class features for feats from a supernatural-themed bonus list, the ToB feats, a feat-chain which gives you alchemist powers...
Beefing up multi-class spellcasting would help normalise magic and would make sense in this context. I'm a fan of characters getting an extra level of spellcasting for every 2 levels they take in classes that don't otherwise advance it, up to a maximum number of extra levels equal to their class level.
You could swap the existing rogue for an intelligence focused version of the ninja, with Int based ninja tricks and ki. Nothing is really lost and even the rogue's archetypes remain largely compatible, but rogues end up moderately more magical as a result. I know you want to keep all the classes, but replacing a class with a variant on its own alternate class doesn't feel like truely replacing it to me.
The fighter and the rogue could get the option to swap their talents and combat feats for hexes.
The fighter could lose weapon and armour training in favour of abilities that scale the same but increase enhancement bonuses and/or add special properties. The same thing could be done in place of the monk's scaling damage die and armour bonus.
Rage could become supernatural and involve an obvious transformation.
Animal companion classes could get the ability to summon their companion to them. It wouldn't be game-altering, but it would be helpful and cool.
You might want to look at something like the infamy rules from Skull and Shackles, which let characters call on outrageous supernatural power just for being well know and taken seriously. While those rules have a pirate theme, they could easily be re-written for general use. I have not tried them yet.
Hero points could be important and become obviously magical. If a character spends hero points to negate death, he comes back from the dead. If he uses them to make his arrow hit, the arrow does a three point turn in mid-air.
The premise of this thread has made me consider new avenues of design.
Now to run off and create a Frankenstein's Monster fighter archetype...
This is, in a lot of ways, the sort of thing I'm trying to get into the system I'm designing.
I've got one setting which is E8, and that handles the disparity by limiting the level the party reaches.
Then I've got a swords & sorcery setting which I'm developing (much too slowly) a system for, where everyone gets fantastic powers. To keep the swords & sorcery aspect, within the setting, the obviously magical capabilities will be missing (simply by restricting those options in the setting). But I explicitly want to have fighters jumping tall buildings in a single bound, slicing through spells, and shaking the ground with their stomps. In a different setting for the system, they'll do it alongside wizards who hurl fireballs from their hands.
The explicit goals of the system are to make the PCs able to wade through mundane foes with no real risk other than becoming exhausted from killing so many mooks, and for epic clashes between PC-grade characters. I want those situations where two powerful characters face off, walking through the air, so powerful that when their swords strike each other, it seems like lightning flashing in a storm. And for magic items to be cool, flavorful, useful, and not essential.
I'm surprised this isn't more popular.
But then again...
"Wizards must be the only gods!"
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I think Monks were basically an early attempt at this-- a martial character who isn't explicitly magical but can do things that can't be explained by brute strength.
I feel like this could be fairly successfully implemented by making Fighters "Int-based monks" and Barbarians "Cha-based monks". There's already that "Fighter:Wizard::Barbarian:Sorcerer" mentality.
Obviously it's more than just giving Fighters and Barbarians a "ki pool" and calling it a day. What exactly would these new abilities do?
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Okay, here's my idea of how this would go, broken down by "mundane" class:
The idea behind fighters compared to the other "fighting" classes is that they're the ones who study skill at arms, learning to master their weapons and armor. The obvious means to make them feel "magical" is with combat feats. There's already Arcane Strike-- fighters don't qualify unless they multiclass. But Arcane Strike is pretty much the idea we want to build on. Maybe Weapon Specialization is a prereq for another feat that lets you treat your weapon as flaming? Maybe you impart your alignment into your weapon? The APG gave us Ray Shield and Missile Shield, to deflect all sorts of things with shields.
Some of these things could also be implemented through weapon and armor training. Maybe when you get Weapon Training 2, you get to add a +1 weapon property to any weapon you wield in your Weapon Training 1 group?
Like Umbral Reaver said, they're already sort of mystical. What sort of rage powers could Barbarians get that makes them feel like they're channeling the mystic fury of the elements? Perhaps they gain the benefits of Mirror Image when they rage, because they move that fast? Maybe they gain a breath weapon? Their movement speed already increases, maybe when they hit a certain level they increase by one size category?
Monks are pretty much already mystical. The qinggong monk was the obvious example of monks moving down this path. I'd say to really emphasize the mysticism of monks, they should get a "spell list" that works like their bonus feat list. Perhaps at 4th level and every 4 levels after, they get the ability to spend 1 ki point to spontaneously cast one spell of their choice, taken from a small list. Then as they level, additional spells are added to the list they may choose from, the same way additional feats are added to the list of bonus feats they may choose from.
I actually had a chance to re-read the 3.5 player's handbook a while back, and it seemed to imply that rogues already were a sort of "mystic" class-- while not outright spellcasters, they gained the ability to "fake it" well enough to fool wands and scrolls. This obviously is expressed in PF via the Use Magic Device skill, but in 3.5 it was a little more obvious due to things like Slippery Mind being a class feature instead of an optional rogue talent.
PF has expanded the possibilities for rogues through things like Minor/Major Magic, but this could easily be expanded on. Give rogues additional bonuses to Spellcraft/UMD checks, let them "fake" a Cure Light Wounds spell with a successful Heal check, perhaps even grant them a familiar? The image of a rogue who keeps a mouse in her belt-pouch, in case she needs a distraction or a rope chewed through seems like it would be a blast to play.
Cavaliers seem focused around two things-- tactical leadership and mounted combat. Their mounted abilities could be made magical by giving them a telepathic link with their mount, or perhaps making their mount a magical beast. Their tactical leadership could be expressed by giving them the ability to re-create the effects of Charm Person, or perhaps Unwitting Ally. Perhaps both could be expressed by a "supernatural charge" in which the Cavalier summons a horde of ghostly war-rders behind him as he charges, turning his attack into an AoE?
Gunslingers are probably the class who would most clash thematically with this idea. The best idea I had is that their starting firearm slowly becomes a sort of wondrous item, eventually becoming an artifact all its own. As the gunslinger levels up, his gun automatically gains certain enhancement bonuses, takes on his alignment, becomes capable of duplicating the effects of certain spells, etc. Of course this would raise the question of what happens if someone else get a hold on their gun. If the players play a second campaign in the same world, could they find this legendary gun? How well would it work for them?
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I like the idea of having the powerful characters have magic or similar but why in the same class?
They can just multiclass into a casting class, so perhaps simply include spells that can assist the archtypes that the high level characters can learn when they multiclass. (aka learn spells that build on what the character already knows/can do)
Something that doesn't require a high caster level but depends on what the caster can already do and improve it.
I.E. A spell that doubles the damage (str, precision,etc, except the weapon itself) that the caster deals. A 1st level straight caster can use the spell but doesn't get much since they don't have much damage beyond the weapon, but a 10th ftr/1st wiz would get a lot of use since the fighter has a high strength and several feats that give bonuses to damage.
I like the idea of having the powerful characters have magic or similar but why in the same class?
They can just multiclass into a casting class, so perhaps simply include spells that can assist the archtypes that the high level characters can learn when they multiclass. (aka learn spells that build on what the character already knows/can do)
Something that doesn't require a high caster level but depends on what the caster can already do and improve it.
I.E. A spell that doubles the damage (str, precision,etc, except the weapon itself) that the caster deals. A 1st level straight caster can use the spell but doesn't get much since they don't have much damage beyond the weapon, but a 10th ftr/1st wiz would get a lot of use since the fighter has a high strength and several feats that give bonuses to damage.
It's not about dealing more damage. Seriously, fighters already deal enough damage. The problem is that in a highly magical world, fighters have nothing else they can do.
My post proposes that PC fighters do not exist. Fighters are NPCs. If you want to play one, you might as well be playing a commoner.
You bring magic or you go home, and that would include creating suitable replacements for the non-magical classes that bring them up to similar levels of world-influencing as the wizard and cleric.
This cannot be done with the existing classes.