Fighting With JUST the shield.


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Hi.

I am putting together a Ranger. (wild Stalker)

My race is half orc
Str 18
Dex 13
Con 14
Int9
Wis 13
Cha 13

Now wild stalker gives up his first combat style feat.

That leaves
6, 10, 14, 18.

He gets a bunch of rage powers but most require Barb levels, he has none

He can take reckless abandon, Knockdown,and a few others.

Now I want the Cha cause he is gonna go Eldritch Heritage (Orc)
Which means Nearly all feats are spoken for bar combat style feats (which ignore preqs)

I was thinking Wield a Large Shield as your weapon.
Trait: Optimistic Gambler
1-Imp Shieldbash
3- Power Attack
5- Skill Forcus: Survival
6- Shieldslam(free bull rush with every shield attack)
7- Extra Rage
9- Eldritch heritage
10-Shieldmaster
11- Imp Eldritch Heritage
13-Quicken SLA Touch of Rage
14- Bashing Finish (Free attack when I crit with my shield)

Does this work. Normal preqs are TWF but rangers ignore pre and so the feats should work?


I think this build should have shield master at level 6. If the shield is your nly weapon, enchanting it to defense and ofense at the same time and at lower cost than a normal weapon should be a priority.


STR Ranger wrote:

Hi.

I am putting together a Ranger. (wild Stalker)

My race is half orc
Str 18
Dex 13
Con 14
Int9
Wis 13
Cha 13

Now wild stalker gives up his first combat style feat.

That leaves
6, 10, 14, 18.

He gets a bunch of rage powers but most require Barb levels, he has none

He can take reckless abandon, Knockdown,and a few others.

Now I want the Cha cause he is gonna go Eldritch Heritage (Orc)
Which means Nearly all feats are spoken for bar combat style feats (which ignore preqs)

I was thinking Wield a Large Shield as your weapon.
Trait: Optimistic Gambler
1-Imp Shieldbash
3- Power Attack
5- Skill Forcus: Survival
6- Shieldslam(free bull rush with every shield attack)
7- Extra Rage
9- Eldritch heritage
10-Shieldmaster
11- Imp Eldritch Heritage
13-Quicken SLA Touch of Rage
14- Bashing Finish (Free attack when I crit with my shield)

Does this work. Normal preqs are TWF but rangers ignore pre and so the feats should work?

- Ranger only ignores prereqs for his combat style feats. Your selection looks fine

- Large shield cannot be wielded by a medium creature - it still has to strap it on
- I would recommend getting shield master at level 6
- Make your shield a heavy shield with shield spikes and the bashing ability -> 2d6 piercing damage on an attack
- You might want to fit lunge in their somewhere :-)


Nicos wrote:
I think this build should have shield master at level 6.

Especially since you qualify for Shield Slam at level 6 (no feat to take it with till level 7, of course) anyway...

Be a Human or Half-Elf to get an extra feat if you're so starved for them.

Why do you want to be a wild stalker at all?

EDIT: And agree w/ above about the bashing spiked heavy shield, too.


Good Idea. I guess the bull rush is not essential.
OK forget the bashing
Maybe

1-Imp Shieldbash
3- Power Attack
5- Skill Focus: Survival
6- Shieldmaster
7- Extra Rage or Cleave
9-Eldritch Heritage
10-Bashing Finish
11- Imp Heritage (Str of the beast)
13- Quicken SLA (Touch of Rage)
14- Bashing Finish
15- Raging Brutality
17-Gtr Heritage (Power of Giants)

So he's a ranger that gets rage instead of FE. And he bashes the crap out of people with his heavy bashing shield.
Massive Str, Touch of Rage for 1+1d4 rounds as a swift 3/day. Rage persists for 1d4 rounds after ending it (Optimistic Gambler). +6Inherent to STR.
6 skills per level.
Workable? Can you 2 hand your shield?


Second (EDIT:third? Fourth?) on Shield Master over Shield Slam. Shield Slamming people around the battlefield and knocking them prone against walls is a useful tactic, but can't compare in my mind to Shield Master. +5 weapon that also gives +7 AC when everyone else is running around with a +2 or +3? Yes, please.

As to whether it works, your feats are totally fine by the rules. There is a good chance that the Wild Stalker's "Wild Talents" ability was intended to replace the other combat feats, but there has never been any errata on the subject.


You can 2H your shield. And I would not give up Shield Slam, it's a good feat. I'd give up bashing finish or extra rage or cleave long before that. Bashing Finish is especially laughable. Instead of a feat to bull rush on every hit if you want to...you get a feat that lets you bull rush only when you crit?

Where is the logic in that?!!! And you have to wait longer for it!


A wild stalker's barbarian level is considered ranger level -3 for purposes of rage so he can qualify for rage powers with level requirements.

Not sure if there has been an errata on this archetype but by a casual reading it seems almost certain that it was intended to replace the usual combat styles with rage powers.


Bashing Finish is not a free bull rush when you crit. It's a FREE Attack!!

But the shield does not crit often. Maybe swap Bashing Finish for Shield slam?

Now, James Jacobs mentioned they were trialling certain archetypes getting 2 smaller abilities in exchange for one big one. In this case you get Wild Talents and Rage powers for FE.

What rage powers you think? He can't take anything with a Barbarian level preq.
I thought maybe animal fury, reckless abandon, Guarded Stance, Inspire Ferocity, Str Surge.

If he can indeed take barb level powers? Maybe Go for Pounce, CaGM?


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

You can 2H your shield. And I would not give up Shield Slam, it's a good feat. I'd give up bashing finish or extra rage or cleave long before that. Bashing Finish is especially laughable. Instead of a feat to bull rush on every hit if you want to...you get a feat that lets you bull rush only when you crit?

Where is the logic in that?!!! And you have to wait longer for it!

bashing finish wrote:
Whenever you score a critical hit with a melee weapon, you can make a shield bash attack against the same target using the same bonus as a free action.

You get one extra shield bash attack for every critical hit you make, which in turn can trigger bull rush etc. How is that not great?

If you have 7 attacks (TWF) a round, you can suddenly have 14 attacks, which in turn can trigger their bull rushes (with shield slam) and have their own criticals again... A terrible amount of damage can be inflicted this way ;-)


Sangalor wrote:
If you have 7 attacks (TWF) a round, you can suddenly have 14 attacks, which in turn can trigger their bull rushes (with shield slam) and have their own criticals again... A terrible amount of damage can be inflicted this way ;-)

I think this is a bit of an overestimation. It is kind of like folks who make a TWF Rogue and say "I can deal 360 Sneak Attack damage a round!" You can, but you won't. Shields have an abysmal threat range, to the point that even with Improved Critical or something similar you would be lucky to get one every 2-3 rounds. The chance of getting 7 extra attacks is one in ten million.

The value of bashing finish is even lower for this build, which is going single shield instead of TWF. Very much a "nice to have" rather than a necessity, in my opinion.


Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
If you have 7 attacks (TWF) a round, you can suddenly have 14 attacks, which in turn can trigger their bull rushes (with shield slam) and have their own criticals again... A terrible amount of damage can be inflicted this way ;-)

I think this is a bit of an overestimation. It is kind of like folks who make a TWF Rogue and say "I can deal 360 Sneak Attack damage a round!" You can, but you won't. Shields have an abysmal threat range, to the point that even with Improved Critical or something similar you would be lucky to get one every 2-3 rounds. The chance of getting 7 extra attacks is one in ten million.

The value of bashing finish is even lower for this build, which is going single shield instead of TWF. Very much a "nice to have" rather than a necessity, in my opinion.

That's why I said "can" :-)

I was more going for a correction of what the feat does and could theoretically do. Streamofthesky kind of mixed it up with something else.

Also, if you have a high-crit weapon like a scimitar, it is far more likely to get those kind of extra attacks. We don't have a scimitar here, so it's moot to discuss that point though.


I could try for TWF.w/Scim/Shield

My race was half orc (alt racial traits for skilled and 90 ft Darkvision)

But if I go human and lose Darkvision

Str 16 (16, 20 here for 18str)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 13 (12th level bump)
Cha 14 (4, 8 level bump)

Now I want the Cha cause he is gonna go Eldritch Heritage (Orc)
Which means Nearly all feats are spoken for bar combat style feats (which ignore preqs)

I was thinking Wield a Heavy Shield as your weapon.
Trait: Optimistic Gambler
1-TWF, Power Attack
3- Imp Shieldbash
5- Skill Fcs: Survival
6- Shieldmaster
7- Doubleslice
9- Eldritch heritage
10- Shield slam
11- Imp Eldritch Heritage
13-Quicken SLA Touch of Rage
14- Bashing Finish

This method hurts my point buy AND loses Darkvision. AND cannot complete the feat chain.

Sigh. Maybe I Can try a switch hitter. (Which I am not opposed to doing, but I thought Shield only could give me a 2hander type damage with better AC.


I'm confused as to how one would "2 hand" a shield, tbh, but otherwise I actually like the idea of using just a shield as a weapon. At least more than the guys that run around with 2 shields. Those guys, while effective, look so ridiculous I can't take them seriously.


You're trying to do too much I think. If you drop Wild Rager you get one style feat back. If you play a human or half-elf you get one feat back. If you drop eldritch heritage you get 4 feats back (doesn't stack with switching to half-elf). If you play human with the ARG option to trade Skilled for a bunch of skill focuses I think you get two feats back (one doesn't stack with dropping eldritch heritage) You might be able to get a feat or two back with a two level fighter dip, but it would delay the prereq-free style feats.

I'd discard eldritch heritage. You're trashing your point buy and cutting into your equipment budget to prop up charisma and it's costing you four feats you can't spare. Eldritch Heritage beyond maybe the first feat is for classes that have charisma as a primary or secondary stat already. Bards and Paladins and Oracles and Summoners and some Rogues and Cavaliers and maybe Clerics.

Dark Archive

Two-handing a shield isn't that weird when you look at the spartan shields rather than something like a kite shield. Basically, it is strapped to one arm and the other is used to add power and control by grabbing onto the other arm.


SaddestPanda wrote:
Two-handing a shield isn't that weird when you look at the spartan shields rather than something like a kite shield. Basically, it is strapped to one arm and the other is used to add power and control by grabbing onto the other arm.

Exactly. For example, if you are fighting with unarmed strikes and with the shield, you could use your free hand to add additional force to your shield bash - quite realistic IMO :-)


Atarlost wrote:

You're trying to do too much I think. If you drop Wild Rager you get one style feat back. If you play a human or half-elf you get one feat back. If you drop eldritch heritage you get 4 feats back (doesn't stack with switching to half-elf). If you play human with the ARG option to trade Skilled for a bunch of skill focuses I think you get two feats back (one doesn't stack with dropping eldritch heritage) You might be able to get a feat or two back with a two level fighter dip, but it would delay the prereq-free style feats.

I'd discard eldritch heritage. You're trashing your point buy and cutting into your equipment budget to prop up charisma and it's costing you four feats you can't spare. Eldritch Heritage beyond maybe the first feat is for classes that have charisma as a primary or secondary stat already. Bards and Paladins and Oracles and Summoners and some Rogues and Cavaliers and maybe Clerics.

I really wanted Half-Orc for the Darkvision and Skilled.

If I go Half-Elf I get Skill Fcs at 1st and Can get Darkvision as an alt racial trait, for low light vision.
*Wild Stalker gives low light vision back anyway!!

I'll try that.


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OK I think I am happy with this dude now.
When reviewing remember it's for 2nd Darkness AP (No spoilers please)
So far we are in Book 1

Char Creation:

Name: Minsc Wilder
Build: Wild Stalker
Race: Half-Elf with alt trait:
Drow-Blooded Some half-elves born of drow parents exhibit more drow traits than others—particularly many of the physical features of the drow—and have darkvision 60 feet and light blindness. This racial trait replaces the low-light vision racial trait.
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Ability Scores:
STR 18 (16+2)
DEX 13
CON 14
INT 7
WIS 13 (12th)
CHA 13 (4th,8th)
Favored Class: Skills
Skills: 6 per level+1 for Favored,-2 for Int= 5per level
2 Traits- Optimistic Gambler, Latent Psion (+2 vs mind effect)

The Build:

1-Strong Senses +1, Track, Wild Empathy, Imp Shieldbash, Skill Focus: Survival
2-Uncanny Dodge
3-Endurance, Favored Terrain 1 (Urban), Power Attack
4-Strong Senses +2,Rage of the Wild (+4Str,Con. Barb1)
5-Rage Power (Reckless Abandon), Cleave
6-Wild Talent (Lesser Beast Totem), Style: ShieldMaster
7-Woodland Stride, Extra Rage
8-Strong Senses +3, Swift Tracker, Favored Terrain 2 (underground)
9-Evasion, Eldritch Heritage (Touch of Rage)
10-Rage Power (Beast Totem), Combat Style (Two Weapon Fighting)
11-Quarry, Wild Talent (Quick Reflexes), Improved Eldritch Heritage
12-Strong Senses +4, Camouflage
13-3rd Favored Terrain (Forest), Quicken SLA: Touch of Rage
14-Combat Style (Bashing Finish)
15-Rage Power (Gtr Beast Totem), Raging Brutality or Dazing Assault
16-Strong Senses +5, Wild Talent (Come and Get Me), Improved Evasion
17-Hide in Plain Sight, Gtr Eldritch Heritage
18-Favored Terrain 4 (mountains), Combat Style (Shield Slam)
19-Improved Quarry, Improved TWF
20-Strong Senses +6, Master Hunter, Rage Power (Inspire Ferocity)

Why I think it works:

Levels 1-6:

Starts off 2handing the Shield for AC and 1:3 Power Attack Ratio.
18Str and High BAB means he hits alot and Shieldmaster at 6 means he can start to pump AC/Attack right at the level you can start to afford Enchants. Cleave is a Good feat. I get HEAPS of oppurtunity to use it in games. Reckless Abandon is a to hit buff, offset by the Shield.
Skills: 5 per level. Plus Racial +4 Perception from Race/Strong Senses. Favored Terrain is +2 Stealth, Perception, Survival and Initiative.
Saves:+4 vs Mind Effecting Spells from Race/Trait.
another +2 when raging.

Levels 7-14:

Extra Rage means Rage Rounds are no longer Scarce. Touch of Rage is a FREAKING AWESOME BUFF! that lasts 1+1d4rounds and can be quickened 3/day. (Obviously use this for Full Attacks). AND IT EFFECTS RANGED ATTACKS AS WELL!!
At ten My natural Armor gets Buffed by Beast Totem, negating the penalty for Reckless Abandon. I take TWF as my style feat Giving me an Extra Attack (doesn't care about dex score) with an Offhand Kukri. The point is to get more attacks for Touch of Rage which is like a mini smite.
Improved Eldritch Heritage for Strength of the Beast. More TO HIT, MORE DAMAGE!!
Bashing Finish for a free attack whenever the Kukri or Shield Crits.
I could Find room for Combat Reflexes so Quick Reflexes gives 2AOO's Per round.
Skills: 5 per level. Plus Racial +6 Perception from Race/Strong Senses. Favored Terrain is +2 Urban/+4 Underground Stealth, Perception, Survival and Initiative. Camoflague means I am stealthy as in my favored terrain.
Saves:+6 to Will when Raging, but Touch of Rage Brings this even Higher.
Buffs: Rage (Morale to Strength) and Touch of Rage (Morale to Attack/Damage/Will) Stack and are Prolonged by Optimistic Gambler.

Levels 15-20:

At 15 YOU GET POUNCE!! A Touch of Rage TWF pounce!!
It's a toss up between Raging Brutality and Dazing Assault, but I think Dazing Assault is gonna get the nod. It gives some Battle Control, Doesn't cost Rage Rounds and synergises with COME AND GET ME!.
Sadly with no combat reflexes he only get 2 AOO's to interrupt.
Hide in Plain Sight is Awesome.
Gtr Eldritch Heritage is the First Ability I am relying on a Magic Item for (Headband of Charisma) but by this level is cheap. and It's GIANT FORM!! More Str, More Natural Armor, Bigger Weapon Dice!
Shield slam is just ok here. With me Using Power of Giants to get Large I can bash around HUGE creatures.
IMP TWF also needs an Item (Belt of Physical Perfection) which you want by now anyway. The extra Attack is awesome cause by now Touch of Rage is adding +10 to hit and Damage.

Opinions please.
I am really quite happy with How this turned out. ;)

AC at 20= 10 +Mithral Breastplate 6, +1(Dusty Ioun Stone) +5(magic armor)+5(ring)+5(amulet)+4(Dex+Belt)+5(Beast Totem)+5(Magic Shield)+2(Heavy Shield)= 48
Only 37 When -2Raging/-4CaGM/-5Reckless Abandon (about the same as a Greatsword Fighter)

So no rage=Turtle
Rage=Death Machine!

Attack at 20
ITWF BAB 20+8(STR)+3(Belt of Phys Perfection)+5(Reckless Abandon)+2(Rage)+5(Magic Shield)+2(Furious Weapon Enchant)-6(Power Attack)-2TWF+1(Haste: Boots of Speed)=40/40/38/35/33/30/25
*if the numbers look wierd remember this is Shield-Primary, Kukri-Offhand. Shieldmaster means 0 penalty for TWF with shield.*

If Dazing Assault on 35/35/33/30/28/25/20

Now slap on Dazing Assault/Touch of Rage
45/45/43/40/38/35/30 with +10 damage per strike.


Y'know what I can't figure out with this archetype is WTF quarry/improved quarry/Master Hunter are supposed to do without FE.

Maybe they forgot about them.
Would they be 1/foe a day? Or perhaps straight trade Quarry for Gtr Rage and
Improved Quarry-Tire less Rage
Master Hunter- Mighty Rage?

Doesn't really matter. The char is pretty awesome anyway I think


Maybe they, rather than the other bonus feats, are what the rage powers are meant to replace.


I would allow those trades.

I love this build!


Thanks.

He is not the Ultimate TWF. (Especially compared to my Standard Scimitar/Cestus TWF in my Ranger Guide. No GTWF. Improved comes pretty late. No TWR. No Doubleslice. No Animal Companion. But heaps better AC, Better HP, Will save and Touch of Rage erases any damage advantage my standard eager has (applies to ranged as well)

Different flavor just as awesome I think.


It feels like a Shield Bearer feel to it...

Note: I am referring to the historical use of the Title Shield Bearer.


In what capacity?Medievil Honor Guard?


STR Ranger wrote:
In what capacity?Medievil Honor Guard?

If you mean the historical shield bearer. Think of it as your character blocking and enemy with another character behind him using Lunge or a reach weapon to strike said enemy.


Yeah, I was mistaken about Bashing Finish.

I still wouldn't take it over Shield Slam. But if you do take it, you peobably want to either TWF with shields or main-hand a heavy spiked bashing shield and have a light 18-20/x2 Keen weapon in the off-hand.


Done. The offhand weapon is a Kukri for crit range.


TWF with shields... make them returning throwing shield or be on a cable and you become Rygar...

Grand Lodge

Well, you could go human, take Racial Heritage(Kobold) and the Tail Terror feat.
This would allow you to two hand your shield, and fight with a Kobold tail attachment.
I suggest the Long lash Kobold tail attachment, for the reach.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, you could go human, take Racial Heritage(Kobold) and the Tail Terror feat.

This would allow you to two hand your shield, and fight with a Kobold tail attachment.
I suggest the Long lash Kobold tail attachment, for the reach.

Wow... how would someone even start to explain that one fluff wise...

Grand Lodge

My great-grandfather, the great Kobold King?


Azaelas Fayth wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, you could go human, take Racial Heritage(Kobold) and the Tail Terror feat.

This would allow you to two hand your shield, and fight with a Kobold tail attachment.
I suggest the Long lash Kobold tail attachment, for the reach.
Wow... how would someone even start to explain that one fluff wise...

"You know, there was this costume party, and this JUST WON'T GO OFF! ARGHH!" :-P

Grand Lodge

Nuh-uh, my granpappy wuz a Dragon!
He weren't no Kobold, that there's dragon tail, sure nuff.


You still need two feats: Throw Anything and Bouncing Attack.

"When Captain I'm-Orc-A throws his mighty shield!"

Grand Lodge

There are Throwing shields, and I am not talking about the enchantment.


Can't find Bouncing Attack on PFSRD...

Grand Lodge

I cannot find it either.


You probably want to look at some of the specific shields in UE. Maelstrom Shield - free trip attempt with every shield bash... Tempest Shield - free bull rush with every shield bash... Volcanic Shield...


@STR Ranger: Mind if I modify your build for some of my NPCs?


Sure.


STR Ranger wrote:
Sure.

My players will loath you.

Grand Lodge

By the way, I love this concept.


It does work, just wish the archetype was written a bit clearer.

Hit FAQ


STR Ranger wrote:

It does work, just wish the archetype was written a bit clearer.

Hit FAQ

Seems pretty clear to me...


the bit about Quarry, Improved Quarry and Master Hunter is not.

There is no mention of losing those abilities but without FE they do nothing.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
STR Ranger wrote:
Can't find Bouncing Attack on PFSRD...

Probably meant this feat. Kind of a feat sink in order to catch it though.

This would be awesome if you could get your GM to custom make you a shield that acts like the ricochet hammer and/or let the returning enchantment work with this feat and allow for an immediate return of this shield.


Nice ideas but i dont like shield only fighter (one or twohanded) on my table. My medival or fantasy fighter fights with sword and board, with one big or two weapons. A shield is not more than a secondary weapon. I know i am alone with this opinion but each to his own :)


Eridan wrote:
Nice ideas but i dont like shield only fighter (one or twohanded) on my table. My medival or fantasy fighter fights with sword and board, with one big or two weapons. A shield is not more than a secondary weapon. I know i am alone with this opinion but each to his own :)

Why do you feel this way?

Grand Lodge

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What is "traditional" medieval fantasy has changed over the years, and varies from person to person.

Seriously, of all the crazy weapons available, I find it odd that the shield, is the one that twists people up.

I mean, there are fighting metal beards, and ladders that double as weapons.

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