"I fell in a pit? I'm a rogue!" and other questions.


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Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Good afternoon everyone,

Ok, after running Crypt of the Everflame, I have a couple questions about GMing in general.

Rogues: How do you handle rogues w/o the 'spider sense' trait? In the pit maze, he almost fell into a pit, but made the reflex save. Afterwards, to save time, we determined his perception was high enough that he could 'take 10' and scout the room w/o setting off the pits.

Finally in the last room the player (experienced player) indicated he was stealthing, not searching. He sets off the bull rush trap and gets knocked into the 40' pit. I figured I'd let him roll his own damage (trying to be kind) and he died, horribly.* Now again, this is an experienced player, and I feel if I'd prompted "Do you want to search for traps?" (especially after the pits) I'd have been making the 'spidey sense' talent useless.

Along those lines...

How much 'control' do you let the druid have over his animal companion? In the second level, I asked for a handle animal check to get the AC to run through the water (up to its chest) to attack the frog. Also the cat did seem to inherit his master's tactical abilities, waiting or holding or charging as need be. I was leinent with the handle animal checks, in part because he seemed upset that when he sent his AC into combat, it would get hit. (a lot).

Silver Crusade 5/5

The animal companion comment is something I intend to look at in more detail. For the most part mostly due to ignorance I've been pretty liberal with it, but did not want to drastically slow down play by looking up the rules. There will be research into the topic and proper education of at least my GMs on how ACs are supposed to be handled.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Daniel Luckett wrote:
The animal companion comment is something I intend to look at in more detail. For the most part mostly due to ignorance I've been pretty liberal with it, but did not want to drastically slow down play by looking up the rules. There will be research into the topic and proper education of at least my GMs on how ACs are supposed to be handled.

I'm afraid I haven't looked into AniComp rules too much either.

As for your other things:

• It costs a move action to search, and the GM shouldn't be deciding how a PC spends their actions, so it's up to players (who don't have Trap Spotter) to declare that they're searching for traps rather than getting freebie checks (this is also the intent).

• Take 10 is fantastic for searching large areas. Additionally, as long as there's no in-game reason why they couldn't/wouldn't spend one move action each round making a perception check and the other moving to the next spot to search from, then adding in T10 is a HUGE time-saver. That's exactly how it oughtta be done. :)

Silver Crusade 5/5

I've heard that Chris Mortika asks for what Tricks the animal companions know. I think this is something I may start asking for as well. That way I know what to expect, and abjudicate. Most of my players treat their animals as another part of themselves that they have 100% control over.

For example, "My dog always moves into flanking position for me." that seems pretty far stretched. Every combat dog video I've ever seen is just the dog straight for the guy and jumping him. There's no circling or waiting. Wolves do this with other wolves, but I've never seen it with a person.

Another example, "I feed my dog a potion of fly and then have him fly with me mounted on him"

This strikes several oddities for me. First, have you EVER tried to feed your dog something that even remotely looks like something he wouldn't eat normally (Treat, meat, kibble). It's not simple and takes me minutes, not seconds. In fact for my dog to be fed liquid medicine, we have to get a syringe and shove that down his throat and push the plunger down once it's in his mouth. I'm seeing a "push animal" to get him to drink a potion check is probably necessary.

Second, how do you convince a dog he can fly. How many videos have we seen of a dog who refuses to run through a closed door missing a screen that he's used to having the screen there? Once again, I'm seeing a pushed animal check to convince the dog he can fly.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Daniel Luckett wrote:

Another example, "I feed my dog a potion of fly and then have him fly with me mounted on him"

This strikes several oddities for me. First, have you EVER tried to feed your dog something that even remotely looks like something he wouldn't eat normally (Treat, meat, kibble).

This part, at least, can be mitigated by the player having the foresight to get it as an oil instead of a potion.

Quote:
How many videos have we seen of a dog who refuses to run through a closed door missing a screen that he's used to having the screen there?

Not enough. ;)

Silver Crusade 5/5

Can you even get an Oil of Fly? I haven't really looked into the oil vs potion definition too much.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Daniel Luckett wrote:
Can you even get an Oil of Fly? I haven't really looked into the oil vs potion definition too much.

Potions and Oils

An oil is just a potion in rub-on form. Anything that can be made into a potion can be made into an oil, and vice-versa. It uses the same item creation feats, processes, etc. They're literally the same item except for delivery method. A potion produces a spell effect when imbibed, an oil when smeared onto the target. That's the only difference.

Mind you, some spells are better in one form than another (a potion of magic weapon is legal, but useless), but strictly speaking, the same set of spells can be made into potions or oils.

Silver Crusade 5/5

hmm...that's an interesting distinction, and from a mechanical point of view seems pointless IMO. Something to put in the "when they finally discuss PFRPG 2nd edition in 8 years list"

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Thanks for that link Jiggy. The player didn't seem too upset, but I want to be fair.

To Paraphrase WW. "Hi, I'm Matthew Morris. I'm a richard in real life, but not when I'm GMing!"


Matthew Morris wrote:

Rogues: How do you handle rogues w/o the 'spider sense' trait? In the pit maze, he almost fell into a pit, but made the reflex save. Afterwards, to save time, we determined his perception was high enough that he could 'take 10' and scout the room w/o setting off the pits.

Finally in the last room the player (experienced player) indicated he was stealthing, not searching. He sets off the bull rush trap and gets knocked into the 40' pit. I figured I'd let him roll his own damage (trying to be kind) and he died, horribly.* Now again, this is an experienced player, and I feel if I'd prompted "Do you want to search for traps?" (especially after the pits) I'd have been making the 'spidey sense' talent useless.

My two cents:

  • By allowing him to implicitly 'take 10', you were being nice.

  • By turning off his implicit 'take 10' while sneaking, you were being nasty.

    So on average, you were about average. ;-)

  • Dark Archive 3/5

    Daniel Luckett wrote:

    I've heard that Chris Mortika asks for what Tricks the animal companions know. I think this is something I may start asking for as well. That way I know what to expect, and abjudicate. Most of my players treat their animals as another part of themselves that they have 100% control over.

    For example, "My dog always moves into flanking position for me." that seems pretty far stretched. Every combat dog video I've ever seen is just the dog straight for the guy and jumping him. There's no circling or waiting. Wolves do this with other wolves, but I've never seen it with a person.

    Another example, "I feed my dog a potion of fly and then have him fly with me mounted on him"

    This strikes several oddities for me. First, have you EVER tried to feed your dog something that even remotely looks like something he wouldn't eat normally (Treat, meat, kibble). It's not simple and takes me minutes, not seconds. In fact for my dog to be fed liquid medicine, we have to get a syringe and shove that down his throat and push the plunger down once it's in his mouth. I'm seeing a "push animal" to get him to drink a potion check is probably necessary.

    Second, how do you convince a dog he can fly. How many videos have we seen of a dog who refuses to run through a closed door missing a screen that he's used to having the screen there? Once again, I'm seeing a pushed animal check to convince the dog he can fly.

    ALL of these things are actually addressed in the handle animal rules.

    Literally getting your AC to do ANYTHING requires a Handle animal check at DC of either 10 or 25 (or impossible if they are physically impossible of doing it).

    Having your AC always attempt to flank when in melee ? Handle Animal Check. (if he knows the trick DC 10, if not DC 25)

    Have him Drink a Potion ? Handle Animal Check. (if he knows the trick DC 10, if not DC 25)
    Have it use it's new ability to fly from potion (or oil) ? Handle Animal Check. (if he knows the trick DC 10, if not DC 25)

    The point of all this is each AC has a very limited number of tricks it can learn how to do automatically. The player has to decide exactly what things it wants their AC to do (mostly) automatically ie Known Tricks and what they are willing to spend their own actions getting done.

    So, if you have a player who wants their AC to always move to flank it costs them 1 Trick (attacking from there is another trick).
    If they want their AC to easily drink a potion that's another trick (getting them to use the benefits of that potion is another trick).

    With the REALLY limited number of tricks an AC can learn players will hoard every one of them like gold and be VERY careful with what they say an AC can do.

    Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

    A while ago I wrote up a "Animal Companion Cheat Sheet" for my players, because I was seeing several reoccuring problems ranging from HP, to how Handle Animal worked, to them not having any tricks known. As for moving your dog into flanking, that's what pushing an animal is for, IMO.

    Spoilering for size.

    Spoiler:

    Animal Companion (AC) Rules Cheat Sheet
    Health: your AC’s health = (4.5 + con modifier) x HD, rounded down.

    Skills: Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim are class skills for your AC, and your AC gets +3 to them with a rank.

    Feats: ACs with an Intelligence above 3 can select any feat they are capable of using. ACs with an Intelligence of 3 or higher are not able to use weapons or tools, speak a language, or activate magic devices. Regardless of the Intelligence of your AC, you still need to make Handle Animal checks to manage its actions.

    Tricks and Handle Animal: Your AC knows a number of tricks equal to 3 x its Intelligence score. Available tricks and the DC to train them are:
    attack (humanoids) (DC 20)
    attack (nonhumanoids) (DC 20)
    come (DC 15)
    defend (DC 20)
    down (DC 15)
    fetch (DC 15)
    guard (DC 20)
    heel (DC 15)
    perform (DC 15)
    seek (DC 15)
    stay (DC 15)
    track (DC 20)
    work (DC 15)
    To have an animal use a trick it knows is a DC 10 Handle Animal check. If your animal is wounded, has taken nonlethal damage, or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your animal doesn’t know the trick, or you want it to make an action it normally wouldn’t (leap off a ledge, etc), you can attempt to push the animal. Pushing an animal is a DC 25 Handle Animal check.

    Link: You can handle (tell it to do a trick with a successful check) your AC as a free action, or push it as a move action. You get a +4 circumstance bonus on all Handle Animal checks with your AC.

    Multiple Attacks: Some animals have more than one kind of attack. These animals have two kinds of attacks: primary natural attacks and secondary natural attacks. When making a full attack action, primary attacks are made at the AC’s normal melee bonus, and add their full Strength bonus on damage. Secondary attacks are made the AC’s melee bonus -5, and add half their Strength bonus on damage. When the animal makes one attack with its primary weapon, it adds 1.5 x its Strength bonus on damage.

    Silver Crusade 5/5

    Are there custom tricks for always flanking? Or does that fall under an already established one? What about a trick that when using an oil of fly that he'll fly. Is there a trick for that?

    The Exchange 5/5

    Some questions on your Handle Animal sheet (Which looks good by the way! very nice addition, something every player with a PC who uses animals should have):

    1) the DC listed on the tricks/commands is DC to teach that trick/command, not the DC to get the animal to do it. For example the DC to teach "Attack" is 20, the DC to get the animal to attack is DC 10 (or 25 if it is a Push).

    2) I beleave "attack (humanoids), and attack (nonhumanoids)" should be attack (normal creatures), attack (unusual creatures such as undead or constructs). If this a PFS change? also the 2nd attack cannot be taught until the first is learned, so you couldn't have an animal with attack (nonhumanoids) and not attack (humanoids).

    Thanks for posting this!

    Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

    Daniel Luckett wrote:
    Are there custom tricks for always flanking? Or does that fall under an already established one? What about a trick that when using an oil of fly that he'll fly. Is there a trick for that?

    The list of tricks provided with Handle Animal isn't exhaustive. "Possible tricks (and their associated DCs) include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following..."

    So you can have the trick "flank" to spend a free action to signal to your AC to move into a flanking position. And the trick "quaff" or "swallow" to signal to your pet to accept whatever potion you stick down its throat.

    The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

    Daniel Luckett wrote:
    I've heard that Chris Mortika asks for what Tricks the animal companions know. I think this is something I may start asking for as well. That way I know what to expect, and abjudicate. Most of my players treat their animals as another part of themselves that they have 100% control over.

    Yep. I find that players are continually surprised, making up lists of tricks on the spot.

    I also have animal companions move and act on their own initiative count. I've had experienced PFS judges tell me that ACs must act on their owner's initiative count. If anybody can point me to that rule, I'd like to see it. If it's true, I can't understand why several published animal companions have Improved Initiative.

    Walter, with the caveats that nosig found, that sheet is a thing of beauty.

    Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

    nosig wrote:

    Some questions on your Handle Animal sheet (Which looks good by the way! very nice addition, something every player with a PC who uses animals should have):

    1) the DC listed on the tricks/commands is DC to teach that trick/command, not the DC to get the animal to do it. For example the DC to teach "Attack" is 20, the DC to get the animal to attack is DC 10 (or 25 if it is a Push).

    2) I beleave "attack (humanoids), and attack (nonhumanoids)" should be attack (normal creatures), attack (unusual creatures such as undead or constructs). If this a PFS change? also the 2nd attack cannot be taught until the first is learned, so you couldn't have an animal with attack (nonhumanoids) and not attack (humanoids).

    Thanks for posting this!

    Re 1: I actually wrote "Available tricks and the DC to train them are..." so we're on the same page.

    Re 2: You're correct, I'll clarify the language.

    Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

    Daniel Luckett wrote:
    I've heard that Chris Mortika asks for what Tricks the animal companions know. I think this is something I may start asking for as well. That way I know what to expect, and adjudicate.

    That's the right way to manage it, IMO. I don't see a good way to deal with the actual learning of tricks (which, in a home game, can take handle animal checks and a period of elapsed time), but I'd expect to see a character sheet for the companion listing the tricks known.

    The Exchange 5/5

    hogarth wrote:
    Matthew Morris wrote:

    Rogues: How do you handle rogues w/o the 'spider sense' trait? In the pit maze, he almost fell into a pit, but made the reflex save. Afterwards, to save time, we determined his perception was high enough that he could 'take 10' and scout the room w/o setting off the pits.

    Finally in the last room the player (experienced player) indicated he was stealthing, not searching. He sets off the bull rush trap and gets knocked into the 40' pit. I figured I'd let him roll his own damage (trying to be kind) and he died, horribly.* Now again, this is an experienced player, and I feel if I'd prompted "Do you want to search for traps?" (especially after the pits) I'd have been making the 'spidey sense' talent useless.

    My two cents:

  • By allowing him to implicitly 'take 10', you were being nice.

  • By turning off his implicit 'take 10' while sneaking, you were being nasty.

    So on average, you were about average. ;-)

  • I agree with hogarth.

    did you establish the proceedure that the Rogue would "Check for Traps" as an SOP? First thing the Rogue does intering a room is make a Perception check at T10? then you changed the procedure without telling him that you changed it?

    Or did you require him to say "I'm taking 10 on a perception check as I open this door" at each doorway? Were you playing "Mother may I?"?

    Silver Crusade 5/5

    For rogues I do this to prevent metagame. At the beginning of a scenario where there's a trap finder, how well do you search an object before your character decides they've given it a good enough go over? They tell me how many rounds they would search, and at every search opportunity they roll X dice for how long they'd search. If they roll crap on all of them, their character wouldn't know that but would consider it good still even though the player knows they rolled poorly.

    I also ask for standard procedures of trap searching. If they say they search every unfamiliar door, and let the rogue go through a room first, etc. Then I'll remind them of such during the encounter as a courtesy, but otherwise they're on their own to tell me.

    The Exchange 5/5

    Walter Sheppard wrote:
    nosig wrote:

    Some questions on your Handle Animal sheet (Which looks good by the way! very nice addition, something every player with a PC who uses animals should have):

    1) the DC listed on the tricks/commands is DC to teach that trick/command, not the DC to get the animal to do it. For example the DC to teach "Attack" is 20, the DC to get the animal to attack is DC 10 (or 25 if it is a Push).

    2) I beleave "attack (humanoids), and attack (nonhumanoids)" should be attack (normal creatures), attack (unusual creatures such as undead or constructs). If this a PFS change? also the 2nd attack cannot be taught until the first is learned, so you couldn't have an animal with attack (nonhumanoids) and not attack (humanoids).

    Thanks for posting this!

    Re 1: I actually wrote "Available tricks and the DC to train them are..." so we're on the same page.

    Re 2: You're correct, I'll clarify the language.

    Again Walter - I really do like this sheet! and I intend to steal it.

    also, to the people about training an animal to "flank". having been attacked by a dog that DID flank me, I think you could have a dog trained to always try to flank. But then it would ALWAYS try to flank, and should be noted that way. Perhaps even by stating that "My command for my dog to attack is "Flank" in halfling - so when I say Max Flank he moves to attack the target on the flank." Something like this.

    But, I have seen players (long ago in LG) send their (Int 2) dog to another room (upstairs) to get a particular book from a shelf... one of several books there. Yeah, really (please chime in if you were at that table).

    Abuses can fall both ways though. Let's try not to overcompensate also. ("Your AC will not attack the Ghoul that is dragging you away, it doesn't know Attack unusual creatures. But it will follow along, because it's on "defend", so if any normal creature attacks you it will defend you.")

    Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

    For the record, I (like some others, it seems) am in favor of "establishing an SOP" counting as "telling the GM you're searching for traps".

    Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

    While we are on the subject of flanking, let me bring in another AC in melee common problem: attacks of opportunity. Does your pet know not to provoke these? If it's smart enough to get flanking, is it smart enough to avoid the reach of the fighter's glaive while doing so?

    As a GM, I allow AC flanking "for free" (no trick tax) occasionally, when it makes sense to me. If I ever get that feeling in the back of my head that says "hmm, that seems like one smart dog," then I have the owner push the pet.

    The Exchange 5/5

    Chris Mortika wrote:
    Daniel Luckett wrote:
    I've heard that Chris Mortika asks for what Tricks the animal companions know. I think this is something I may start asking for as well. That way I know what to expect, and abjudicate. Most of my players treat their animals as another part of themselves that they have 100% control over.

    Yep. I find that players are continually surprised, making up lists of tricks on the spot.

    I also have animal companions move and act on their own initiative count. I've had experienced PFS judges tell me that ACs must act on their owner's initiative count. If anybody can point me to that rule, I'd like to see it. If it's true, I can't understand why several published animal companions have Improved Initiative.

    Walter, with the caveats that nosig found, that sheet is a thing of beauty.

    I've tried to do AC on their own init counts... but it tends to brake the flow of the game a bit. Normal now I just have the AC go on the Players init... this is just to make my life as a Judge easier, kind of like me lumping all six goblins into the same init.

    I guess if a player requested it, I would give his AC a different Init count... maybe.

    And if someone doesn't have a list of commands for attack animals (realizing that there are other animals than ACs), I will often tell the player that they need to add it later, but for now I am assumeing they have 1) attack, 2) 2nd attack, 3) defend. And then next time I sit as a judge for them I try to ask if they created thier command list.

    Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

    I'm stealing that Animal Companion Sheet, so thank you.

    Re: Traps.

    Spoiler:

    The maze of pits have a perception DC of 15. He wasn't checking so he almost fell into the pit, and made his reflex save. He said he was searching every square, and his take 10 was 19 for traps. I said we could hand wave it with taking 10 as opposed to spending the time to roll 57(!) times for each square in the maze.

    The bull rush trap is a DC 20 to find, so even taking 10 wouldn't have found it. Also since it's an active trap (attacking the PC) there's no reflex save. I just happened to roll well enough to send him flying into the pit. So I didn't 'turn it off' :-)

    Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    nosig wrote:


    But, I have seen players (long ago in LG) send their (Int 2) dog to another room (upstairs) to get a particular book from a shelf... one of several books there. Yeah, really (please chime in if you were at that table).

    Did the AC also tell him when Timmy was down the well? And draw a map? :-)

    Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

    Daniel Luckett wrote:

    I've heard that Chris Mortika asks for what Tricks the animal companions know. I think this is something I may start asking for as well. That way I know what to expect, and abjudicate. Most of my players treat their animals as another part of themselves that they have 100% control over.

    A well trained Animal Companion should be at least as tactically smart as a normal animal. I've seen lots and lots of GMs allowing animals, vermin, undead, etc to be reasonably tactically competent. They sometimes flank, they generally avoid attacks of opportunity, etc. Exactly how competent varies by GM.

    For an Animal Companion you've got a lot of training on top of that. Training augemented (when it occurred) with Speak With Animals so the AC could really understand what was wanted. Training by somebody that the AC really likes who really understands the AC (assuming the Druid is built/played properly). Its unclear how much these would affect things but they really SHOULD augment how capable the Animal Companion is.

    At the very least, it should be able to do what a well trained Horse or Dog does in the movies. And that can be a lot :-).

    And thats leaving out the capabilities of an Animal with an Int of 3+ (which many Companions end up having)


    Chris Mortika wrote:
    I also have animal companions move and act on their own initiative count.

    How do you handle rounds where the AC beats the PCs init? Does the AC lose a round waiting for a command, or does it act instinctively first, then start taking commands after the PC's turn?

    For example:
    Init 21: Orc Wizard
    Init 18: Fluffy the wolf companion
    Init 12: Goblin
    Init 4: Leafwalker the Druid

    Fluffy goes before Leafwalker. What does he do? Wait for an order (Delay)? Bite something? How does it choose which apparent enemy to bite?

    Once it's Leafwalker's turn, he can Handle Fluffy as a free action, and give him a command, which Fluffy will do on his next turn.

    Lets say he orders Fluffy to attack, and points at the Orc.

    Next round, the Orc teleports away. Now on Fluffys turn he no longer has a target. Does he obey the order and do nothing? Does he choose to do something else? If so, what? Bite a different apparent enemy?

    Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

    Walter Sheppard wrote:

    While we are on the subject of flanking, let me bring in another AC in melee common problem: attacks of opportunity. Does your pet know not to provoke these? If it's smart enough to get flanking, is it smart enough to avoid the reach of the fighter's glaive while doing so?

    As a GM, I allow AC flanking "for free" (no trick tax) occasionally, when it makes sense to me. If I ever get that feeling in the back of my head that says "hmm, that seems like one smart dog," then I have the owner push the pet.

    Hmm, that's a good question.

    My chihuahua (who is very smart) was abused. He had a fear of brooms as a result. When I was hobbling around on my cane (cellulitus) he wouldn't come near me, not even to get his toy if it was in range of my cane. He may not have known about AoO, but he definately knew of threatened areas.

    I'd think if the Animal Companion* 'knows' about AoO from reach weapons, you'd have to 'push' the animal to get into reach.

    *

    Spoiler:
    I'm a psionics guy. I read AC = Astral Construct.

    Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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    Matthew Morris wrote:

    I'm stealing that Animal Companion Sheet, so thank you.

    Re: Traps.
    ** spoiler omitted **

    You don't have to search every 5ft square individually. Any time you make a perception check (whether to notice or to search), you get all information for which your check result meets or beats the DC (remembering to modify it for distance or other conditions).

    If I'm standing in the middle of a football field under a clear, blue sky; and the whole field is littered with DC 15 traps, I can take 10 and get a 17 to see all the traps within 30 feet (less than 10ft is DC 15, 10-19ft is DC 16, 20-29ft is DC 17) with a single check. I fail to discover all traps outside that radius.

    Start factoring in dim lighting, obstructions to line of sight, etc; and I'll find fewer and fewer traps. But searching does not produce tunnel vision.

    Grand Lodge 4/5

    Walter, don't forget to mention that some ACs get bonus tricks, above and beyond what they can have by Int.

    For instance, Druids ACs always have at least one bonus trick in addition to having their normal number of trick slots.

    You might want to include the information form the PFS FAQ on teaching replacement ACs new tricks, one for each rank the trainer has in Handle Animal per scenario/module.

    Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

    kinevon wrote:

    Walter, don't forget to mention that some ACs get bonus tricks, above and beyond what they can have by Int.

    For instance, Druids ACs always have at least one bonus trick in addition to having their normal number of trick slots.

    You might want to include the information form the PFS FAQ on teaching replacement ACs new tricks, one for each rank the trainer has in Handle Animal per scenario/module.

    I'll write up a "training" section and see how it flows with the rest. My goal isn't to make it comprehensive, just highlight some usual problems that I've been seeing.

    And recovering from an Animal Companion death is a common enough problem in the higher levels.

    Grand Lodge 4/5

    Jiggy wrote:
    If I'm standing in the middle of a football field under a clear, blue sky; and the whole field is littered with DC 15 traps, I can take 10 and get a 17 to see all the traps within 30 feet (less than 10ft is DC 15, 10-19ft is DC 16, 20-29ft is DC 17) with a single check. I fail to discover all traps outside that radius.

    I'm pretty sure you can only find traps within 10 ft, regardless of your Perception score. However, that may be a legacy 3.5 rule that was left out of Pathfinder (whether intentionally or not).

    5/5 5/55/5 * Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Columbus

    Daniel Luckett wrote:


    For example, "My dog always moves into flanking position for me." that seems pretty far stretched. Every combat dog video I've ever seen is just the dog straight for the guy and jumping him. There's no circling or waiting. Wolves do this with other wolves, but I've never seen it with a person.

    actually Coyote hunting and boar hunting dogs often do flaking maneuvers, as do lions and tigers and most pack animals. your animal companion has adopted you as his pack leader so would probably do flanking maneuvers. For any animal which naturally hunts in a pack I would give them flanking. Heck even aid another---if you have watched wolves or lions hunt--one distracts and occupies the attention, so that another can get a better kill shot.

    much more that that though?--probably not. And if it is a creature that normally does not hunt in packs--ie wolverine, snake etc--no.

    Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

    Jonathan Cary wrote:
    Jiggy wrote:
    If I'm standing in the middle of a football field under a clear, blue sky; and the whole field is littered with DC 15 traps, I can take 10 and get a 17 to see all the traps within 30 feet (less than 10ft is DC 15, 10-19ft is DC 16, 20-29ft is DC 17) with a single check. I fail to discover all traps outside that radius.
    I'm pretty sure you can only find traps within 10 ft, regardless of your Perception score. However, that may be a legacy 3.5 rule that was left out of Pathfinder (whether intentionally or not).

    No such rule exists in Pathfinder, although as I mentioned, the DC to find anything (traps or anything else) is at +1/10ft of distance between the observer and the target.

    The Exchange 5/5

    Jonathan Cary wrote:
    Jiggy wrote:
    If I'm standing in the middle of a football field under a clear, blue sky; and the whole field is littered with DC 15 traps, I can take 10 and get a 17 to see all the traps within 30 feet (less than 10ft is DC 15, 10-19ft is DC 16, 20-29ft is DC 17) with a single check. I fail to discover all traps outside that radius.
    I'm pretty sure you can only find traps within 10 ft, regardless of your Perception score. However, that may be a legacy 3.5 rule that was left out of Pathfinder (whether intentionally or not).

    that is a left over from the 3.5 Search rules.

    PFS doesn't have Search (10' range) and Spot (more than 10') any more, just perception.

    edit: ninja'd! you go Jiggy...

    The Exchange 5/5

    Hakken wrote:
    Daniel Luckett wrote:


    For example, "My dog always moves into flanking position for me." that seems pretty far stretched. Every combat dog video I've ever seen is just the dog straight for the guy and jumping him. There's no circling or waiting. Wolves do this with other wolves, but I've never seen it with a person.

    actually Coyote hunting and boar hunting dogs often do flaking maneuvers, as do lions and tigers and most pack animals. your animal companion has adopted you as his pack leader so would probably do flanking maneuvers. For any animal which naturally hunts in a pack I would give them flanking. Heck even aid another---if you have watched wolves or lions hunt--one distracts and occupies the attention, so that another can get a better kill shot.

    much more that that though?--probably not. And if it is a creature that normally does not hunt in packs--ie wolverine, snake etc--no.

    I think this should also be individual by the PC & AC. A PC who is mainly a caster and normally has his AC "block" for him would be different from a PC who is mainly a melee type (and can really use the flanker). So... if I'm the judge, I'll try to ask the Player what his AC does - tell me a bit about Phydeaux...

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    You can either just say "I'm moving at half speed looking for traps as i move along"

    or make them move, make a check, move make a check, move make a check, calculate out where they wind up, how far away the trap is, and whether you need to assign a penalty to the check, figure out how long it takes to move corners.... zzzzz..

    You can either make someone roll 57 dice, or you can ask the party their formation/how far they're standing back, and only ask for a roll when they're actually near the trap.

    The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

    Grick wrote:
    How do you handle rounds where the AC beats the PCs init? Does the AC lose a round waiting for a command, or does it act instinctively first, then start taking commands after the PC's turn?

    An animal companion follows its default command. If it's been told to defend the PC or guard an area, it'll obey that command until told otherwise. If it's been told to heel, likewise.

    So, let's say a orc wizard and a goblin appear, and the animal companion goes before its sluggish master. If it's been told to defend her, it'll attack anything that tries to attack her. That may be a tactical mistake.

    I suppose you could train an animal, as a default, to attack everything that approaches the party. That may backfire when you find the lost wereboar sage the party's been searching for.

    If the PC tells the animal to attack the orc wizard who then teleports away, the animal probably needs another command to turn and attack another foe instead.

    The Exchange 5/5

    BigNorseWolf wrote:

    You can either just say "I'm moving at half speed looking for traps as i move along"

    or make them move, make a check, move make a check, move make a check, calculate out where they wind up, how far away the trap is, and whether you need to assign a penalty to the check, figure out how long it takes to move corners.... zzzzz..

    You can either make someone roll 57 dice, or you can ask the party their formation/how far they're standing back, and only ask for a roll when they're actually near the trap.

    so, just saying "My PC takes T10 looking on perception rolls, OH! and I have trap spotter, which I would like you to roll without telling me when it's needed, so I don't meta-game", does that work? Just look at the trap DC and my T10 perception check and see where they meet? or how does it work with you as the judge?

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    Christ Motika wrote:
    I also have animal companions move and act on their own initiative count. I've had experienced PFS judges tell me that ACs must act on their owner's initiative count. If anybody can point me to that rule, I'd like to see it.

    If you don't you'll just have the character holding/delaying until the lower of the two's turn, especially if you want the druid to use handle animal, since they can't handle the animal outside of their turn.

    Silver Crusade 5/5

    nosig wrote:
    Hakken wrote:
    Daniel Luckett wrote:


    For example, "My dog always moves into flanking position for me." that seems pretty far stretched. Every combat dog video I've ever seen is just the dog straight for the guy and jumping him. There's no circling or waiting. Wolves do this with other wolves, but I've never seen it with a person.

    actually Coyote hunting and boar hunting dogs often do flaking maneuvers, as do lions and tigers and most pack animals. your animal companion has adopted you as his pack leader so would probably do flanking maneuvers. For any animal which naturally hunts in a pack I would give them flanking. Heck even aid another---if you have watched wolves or lions hunt--one distracts and occupies the attention, so that another can get a better kill shot.

    much more that that though?--probably not. And if it is a creature that normally does not hunt in packs--ie wolverine, snake etc--no.

    I think this should also be individual by the PC & AC. A PC who is mainly a caster and normally has his AC "block" for him would be different from a PC who is mainly a melee type (and can really use the flanker). So... if I'm the judge, I'll try to ask the Player what his AC does - tell me a bit about Phydeaux...

    Exactly, for example please explain to me how an Axebeak acts in combat? Is he an auto-flanker?

    Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

    Daniel Luckett wrote:
    nosig wrote:
    Hakken wrote:
    Daniel Luckett wrote:


    For example, "My dog always moves into flanking position for me." that seems pretty far stretched. Every combat dog video I've ever seen is just the dog straight for the guy and jumping him. There's no circling or waiting. Wolves do this with other wolves, but I've never seen it with a person.

    actually Coyote hunting and boar hunting dogs often do flaking maneuvers, as do lions and tigers and most pack animals. your animal companion has adopted you as his pack leader so would probably do flanking maneuvers. For any animal which naturally hunts in a pack I would give them flanking. Heck even aid another---if you have watched wolves or lions hunt--one distracts and occupies the attention, so that another can get a better kill shot.

    much more that that though?--probably not. And if it is a creature that normally does not hunt in packs--ie wolverine, snake etc--no.

    I think this should also be individual by the PC & AC. A PC who is mainly a caster and normally has his AC "block" for him would be different from a PC who is mainly a melee type (and can really use the flanker). So... if I'm the judge, I'll try to ask the Player what his AC does - tell me a bit about Phydeaux...
    Exactly, for example please explain to me how an Axebeak acts in combat? Is he an auto-flanker?

    An Axebeak is a perfect candidate for the flank trick or a push check to make him flank. Other animals though, it does get fuzzy on.

    Here's more food for thought! Those animals that "know to flank," are wild beasts, they know it on instinct. That's like "racial animal training."

    However, when you have a wolf AC, that is a wolf that you have trained. Anything primal about being a wolf it might still remember, but it is following your orders. And if your orders are for it to attack, it isn't going to spend 100 feet of movement to loop around to the rear, and then charge in next turn to provide flanking. It's going to move into melee and attack head on, unless you teach it otherwise.

    EDIT: clarified language

    The Exchange 5/5

    well, if an Axebeak is a pack hunter (and from what I have read of the pre-history animal they were) I would think they know and use flanking. Even if not, they could likely be trained that way. Did the PC training them teach them to flank? did he tell me at the start of the game that "Chicky-Chop flanks for me"? or did he say "Chicky-Chop protects me while I cast spells"? Run it from there...

    The Exchange 5/5

    yeah, basicly ask the guy that's the expert on the AC - the guy that taught it everything it knows. The player. And if he says "Eddy does my physics homework while I'm sleeping in" raise and eyebrow and say "oh, really?".

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    nosig wrote:
    so, just saying "My PC takes T10 looking on perception rolls, OH! and I have trap spotter, which I would like you to roll without telling me when it's needed, so I don't meta-game", does that work? Just look at the trap DC and my T10 perception check and see where they meet? or how does it work with you as the judge?

    Yup. The only advantage you would be getting from trapspotter in that case is the ability to move at full speed.

    The Exchange 5/5

    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    nosig wrote:
    so, just saying "My PC takes T10 looking on perception rolls, OH! and I have trap spotter, which I would like you to roll without telling me when it's needed, so I don't meta-game", does that work? Just look at the trap DC and my T10 perception check and see where they meet? or how does it work with you as the judge?
    Yup. The only advantage you would be getting from trapspotter in that case is the ability to move at full speed.

    wouldn't trapspotter give a second check (a roll)? One for my active Perception check (my move action basicly) where I T10 - perhaps with a MW tool (Perception) and one as a passive Perception check (rolled) without the MW tool, as it is passive(and limited to 10 feet)?

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    Nosig wrote:
    wouldn't trapspotter give a second check (a roll)? One for my active Perception check (my move action basicly) where I T10 - perhaps with a MW tool (Perception) and one as a passive Perception check (rolled) without the MW tool, as it is passive(and limited to 10 feet)?

    If you wanted to go at half speed, sure.

    Liberty's Edge 5/5

    PRD: Skills wrote:

    Handle an Animal: This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.

    “Push” an Animal: To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn't know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.

    If the animal knows a trick, it is still a handle animal check DC 10 (12 if the animal is wounded, taken non-lethal damage or ability damage) to get it to do a trick it knows. Most folks who have an animal companion should be able to do this without rolling the dice, as a roll of a 1 would still get them over 12.

    If the animal doesn't know a trick, you gotta push it. That would be a DC 25 (or 27).

    So having an animal automatically flank and such, would require a push, as there is no trick for flanking. For attack, the animal will move to the closest square in which it can threaten the creature you've commanded it to attack. Also remember, if it doesn't have the Attack 2 trick, it can only attack other animals and humanoids.

    Silver Crusade 5/5

    Personally, I would allow a trick to be burned for an auto-flank tactic.

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