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Hi all,
I have some questions about the life cycle of souls, the judgment of Pharasma and Abaddon. In "The Great Beyond", it tells us that souls are created in the "plan of positive energy", then the soul is embodied in the material plane. At death the soul leaves the material plane and then travel through the astral plane to the "Boneyard" where she becomes a "petitioner". There, his final destination is determined from the "Outer Planes" based on certain criteria.
- Apart from the religion adopted by the mortal, what are the criteria that determine the final destination of the soul?
- What happens if a mortal is converted to a religion but does not follow its precepts? If it exists, a lawful good worshipper of Asmodeus would end in Heaven or in Hell?
- What happens to atheists? They all end up in the Boneyard? If no, what would decide their end travel?
- Except for the criteria of beliefs, why she would end a soul in hell rather than into the abyss, or into the abyss rather than hell? The Book Of The Damned I would suggest that hell is a punishment for the souls of certain mortals. This is not the case of the abyss?
- The door between Abaddon and the Boneyard is closed but I have nowhere seen an explanation of the closure. Does this mean that petitioner did not travel to Abaddon from the Boneyard? If this is the case then who are the Petitioners for Abaddon (except those whose mortal worshiped the four horsemen) and how are they going?
- The Daemons work at the end of time and feed on souls. Does this mean that a mortal shot by a daemon can not be resurrected?
- In Abaddon, the Petitioners are called the hunted. They spend an eternity to be persecuted by the Daemons that feed on those they catch. The Hunted survivors eventually turn into daemons. The Daemons build the innermost conspiracies, manipulating other Fiends to achieve the end of time. The four horsemen are showing the most malevolent intelligence and yet they do not understand that each Hunted they absorb is a less Deamon in their army?
In short all this is not entirely clear and one of my players is playing a daemon-spawn tieffling that goes from actively seeking out its origins ... Thank you for your answers.
Creative Director
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There's a certain amount of vagueness built into the process, honestly, because we want death and what happens after to be kind of spooky and mysterious. But here's some answers...
1) Pharasma determines what the final destination of a soul is. Things that play into her decision include the soul's religion, the soul's personality, the soul's alignment, how well the soul lived up to its life goals, how the soul presents itself to Pharasma, and more. There's not really a precise formula you can apply to someone to determine where they'll end up.
2) If a mortal converts to a new religion but doesn't really follow the religion, they'll probably end up being sent on to that religion's outer plane but manifest as a petitioner and stay a petitioner for a long, long time... perhaps forever. If their failure to follow the religion actually caused harm and disruption, they'll instead be sent to Hell or some other place in line with that religion's punishment preference.
3) Atheists either end up in the Boneyard, or they end up transcending into free-roaming souls who are allowed to drift through reality and expand their knowledge or explore. Ending up in the Boneyard is kind of the atheist version of being punished in Hell, while being granted the freedom to continue on as a disembodied soul (this isn't a undead monster... it's something that exists beyond statistics) is the big reward. Some of them might be reincarnated back into new bodies as well... although that's more common for agnostics than for atheists.
4) Who gets sent to what plane for punishment depends on a lot of complex things—see #1 above.
5) It's closed to keep daemons from being able to easily raid the Boneyard of its souls waiting in line to be judged. A soul can still be sent to Abaddon though; Pharasma can certainly open the door long enough to let souls pass through without letting anything else come in.
6) Note that some daemons have specific abilities to feed on souls—it's those abilities (such as the lowly cacodaemon's Soul Lock ability, or the thanadaemon's Soul Crush ability) that specifically destroy souls. When a daemon just kills a creature normally, that creature's soul is pretty much ALWAYS able to escape into the great beyond. When they don't... it's because of specific storyline reasons, in which case the captured soul may need a caster level check to be resurrected, or it might not be ressurectable at all. Again... those are elements that drive stories and adventures, not typical results from combat with a daemon.
7) The Horsemen have plenty of daemons working for them. There's more people dying than just on Golarion, after all... souls come from ALL of the inhabited worlds of the Material Plane. AKA: even if only 1% of the souls who come to Abaddon survive to become daemons, that's still a HUGE NUMBER. And after all... if a petitioner isn't canny enough to avoid being eaten, what Horseman in their right mind would want such a weak-sauce soul working for them anyway? It's supernatural selection at work (as opposed to natural selection).
Hi all,
Hello
I have some questions about the life cycle of souls, the judgment of Pharasma and Abaddon. In "The Great Beyond", it tells us that souls are created in the "plan of positive energy", then the soul is embodied in the material plane. At death the soul leaves the material plane and then travel through the astral plane to the "Boneyard" where she becomes a "petitioner". There, his final destination is determined from the "Outer Planes" based on certain criteria.
- Apart from the religion adopted by the mortal, what are the criteria that determine the final destination of the soul?
Each soul (except those that are snatched from the queue before coming before Her) is judged by Pharasma. She determines the fate of the soul - I don't think if it is not explained if she judges each soul according to deeds or if she just checks predetermined fate of the soul and processes the spirit accordingly (which is possible as She is Goddess of fate and prophecy as well as birth and death).
- What happens if a mortal is converted to a religion but does not follow its precepts? If it exists, a lawful good worshipper of Asmodeus would end in Heaven or in Hell?
I think that honest worship of deity has precedence over alignment as long as deity accepts the soul in question. Asmodeus certainly would find use for LG soul. On the other hand, Iomedae could have problems with LE worshipper even if he was honest in his faith.
- Except for the criteria of beliefs, why she would end a soul in hell rather than into the abyss, or into the abyss rather than hell? The Book Of The Damned I would suggest that hell is a punishment for the souls of certain mortals. This is not the case of the abyss?
- The door between Abaddon and the Boneyard is closed but I have nowhere seen an explanation of the closure. Does this mean that petitioner did not travel to Abaddon from the Boneyard? If this is the case then who are the Petitioners for Abaddon (except those whose mortal worshiped the four horsemen) and how are they going?
Daemons actively hunt for souls, as do other soul-trading entities, such as night hags. Still, I think that souls are sent from Boneyard to Abaddon - the doors might be closed only to daemons to reduce their capability of stealing souls awaiting judgement.
EDIT: James ninja'ed me to prove me right on this.
- In Abaddon, the Petitioners are called the hunted. They spend an eternity to be persecuted by the Daemons that feed on those they catch. The Hunted survivors eventually turn into daemons. The Daemons build the innermost conspiracies, manipulating other Fiends to achieve the end of time. The four horsemen are showing the most malevolent intelligence and yet they do not understand that each Hunted they absorb is a less Deamon in their army?...
Escaping the hunt for long enough turns souls into new daemons. Those who are not capable of escaping the hunt are too weak to become new daemon anyway. Also, the hunger for souls is the essence of daemonhood, they cannot stop doing this anymore than human can stop breathing.
Ninja'd on multiple accounts by James :)
Thx for your answers.
I have another question: why would Pharasma send souls to Abaddon? Is she neutral to the point that she is a machine-minded being who doesn't care if the Daemons rise in power and ultimately obliterate everything?
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I have another question: why would Pharasma send souls to Abaddon? Is she neutral to the point that she is a machine-minded being who doesn't care if the Daemons rise in power and ultimately obliterate everything?
She seems to regard Daemons as pests. Much like a gardener regards rabbits eating their plantings. But you don't abandon a bed just because the rabbits prefer that one, indeed, if you did they'd liely just move on to the others. You keep planting there, and maybe set up some snares to help with that rabbit problem.
Or maybe not letting the souls belonging to Abaddon to go there would be worse?
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Great thread! Thanks to James Jacobs for answering our questions. You rock!
I'm curious, are there stats/rules for various petitioners anywhere in the books? Are all petitioners the same, or do they vary based on the plane/god they're affiliated with?
Also, is there a source that tells the progression of souls of various alignments? For instance, in reading the Bestiary I see that some souls can become angels. Is this information for all faiths/alignments collected anywhere in one place?
I'm curious about this because I've had an idea for a campaign for years where the PC's start the campaign dead, as petitioners, and the story follows the evolution of their souls up through the various ranks of outsiders appropriate to their alignment. For example, petitioner-astral deva-planetar-solar.
If it doesn't yet exist, I'd love to see a supplement that listed these progressions for the various alignments and religions, as well as gave some examples of what was required to evolve from one step to another. Eg. what does an astral deva need to accomplish to become a planatar, or what does a petitioner need to accomplish to become a lantern archon?
I think this would be an awesome campaign as the PC's would not only get to play a gradual increase in power via HD/levels, but also would get to play various races/species as they evolved.
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Creative Director
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I have another question: why would Pharasma send souls to Abaddon? Is she neutral to the point that she is a machine-minded being who doesn't care if the Daemons rise in power and ultimately obliterate everything?
Because some souls belong there/deserve it.
Pharasma doesn't mind that Abaddon gets it's "share" of the souls it's "earned." She doesn't like the fact that the daemons want more and are highly aggressive about that fact.
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Creative Director
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Great thread! Thanks to James Jacobs for answering our questions. You rock!
I'm curious, are there stats/rules for various petitioners anywhere in the books? Are all petitioners the same, or do they vary based on the plane/god they're affiliated with?
Also, is there a source that tells the progression of souls of various alignments? For instance, in reading the Bestiary I see that some souls can become angels. Is this information for all faiths/alignments collected anywhere in one place?
I'm curious about this because I've had an idea for a campaign for years where the PC's start the campaign dead, as petitioners, and the story follows the evolution of their souls up through the various ranks of outsiders appropriate to their alignment. For example, petitioner-astral deva-planetar-solar.
If it doesn't yet exist, I'd love to see a supplement that listed these progressions for the various alignments and religions, as well as gave some examples of what was required to evolve from one step to another. Eg. what does an astral deva need to accomplish to become a planatar, or what does a petitioner need to accomplish to become a lantern archon?
I think this would be an awesome campaign as the PC's would not only get to play a gradual increase in power via HD/levels, but also would get to play various races/species as they evolved.
Petitioner is a template in Bestiary 2. That section talks a bit about what they can become, given time. If you want to start a game with PCs as petitioners, you'll probably need to do a bit of adjustment to the template since they're kinda unusual in a lot of regards... especially in how they ascend through the ranks to become outsiders and how their personalities and memories and goals change completely during that. And since the timescale of most of these "promotions" to outsider status functions on a scale of thousands of years typically... it'd be a strange campaign indeed!
And the progression is an intensely personal thing—it's not something that you can summarize as always working the same way. Two twin brothers who are both lawful good paladins who both worship Torag and adventure together and then both die in a heroic defense of a town against a dragon are not necessarily going to end up being the same after death—there's more to it than that.
Especially since in many cases, once a petitioner ascends to outsider status... that's the outsider they'll be for the rest of time. Most outsider races do not have a "rise through the monster ranks" scheme—in fact, I'm pretty sure only devils have that on a racial scale, but I could be wrong.
Especially since in many cases, once a petitioner ascends to outsider status... that's the outsider they'll be for the rest of time. Most outsider races do not have a "rise through the monster ranks" scheme—in fact, I'm pretty sure only devils have that on a racial scale, but I could be wrong.
There were some mentions of demons ascending into more powerful forms at least in 2nd edition and in 3rd too, but they seemed to be chaotic (duh, surprise) and lacking in consequence. Probably the developers hadn't established that as confirmed fact - instead some of them thought that demons work like devils... Or maybe that tanar'ri mirror baatezu (well, 2nd edition erinyes were more like succubi for example than 3rd edition).
If a soul was misfiled to the wrong place would I be correct in thinking that they wouldn't change change into an outsider matching the plane?
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Especially since in many cases, once a petitioner ascends to outsider status... that's the outsider they'll be for the rest of time. Most outsider races do not have a "rise through the monster ranks" scheme—in fact, I'm pretty sure only devils have that on a racial scale, but I could be wrong.There were some mentions of demons ascending into more powerful forms at least in 2nd edition and in 3rd too, but they seemed to be chaotic (duh, surprise) and lacking in consequence. Probably the developers hadn't established that as confirmed fact - instead some of them thought that demons work like devils... Or maybe that tanar'ri mirror baatezu (well, 2nd edition erinyes were more like succubi for example than 3rd edition).
True... but what was true in 2nd or even 3rd edition D&D isn't necessarily true in Pathfinder.
For devils, demons, and daemons... this topic is covered in greater detail in the Books of the Damned, in any event.
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Creative Director
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If a soul was misfiled to the wrong place would I be correct in thinking that they wouldn't change change into an outsider matching the plane?
Pharasma doesn't make those kinds of mistakes.
That said, if a soul accidentally ends up on the wrong plane, perhaps slipping through the cracks before it even reaches the Boneyard... what happens to that soul could be ANYthing, as the story requires.
True... but what was true in 2nd or even 3rd edition D&D isn't necessarily true in Pathfinder.
Of course, in the same vein what is true in generic Pathfinder does not have to be the same in Golarion, especially when it comes to planar things as Bestiaries are setting neutral and IIRC some monsters refer to concepts somewhere closer to 3rd edition cosmology than Golarionic one (Golarionish?).
In fact, does the Demodand story from Bestiary 3 is matching their story in Golarion? Were there, in the Golarion past, the war between gods and thanatotic titans?
James, I'm curious about the status of petitioner's memories. The Beastiary seems to suggest only rarely do they retain their memories of their mortal lives. I find this sad because our memories make up a huge portion of who we are, and the fact when the soul goes to one of the celestial realms, they don't recognize their family members?
As James said, the progression/promotion schemes from 2e/3e aren't necessarily true in PF. That said, I think some sort of progression from lower to higher forms has been mentioned for archons, devils, demons, proteans (sort of), and daemons (astradaemons as a punishment caste, and some examples of promotion such as Trelmarixian's experience). However they haven't been mapped out extensively like in 2e, and it's probably best to keep it tied into what makes the most sense and impact for plot purposes.
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True... but what was true in 2nd or even 3rd edition D&D isn't necessarily true in Pathfinder.Of course, in the same vein what is true in generic Pathfinder does not have to be the same in Golarion, especially when it comes to planar things as Bestiaries are setting neutral and IIRC some monsters refer to concepts somewhere closer to 3rd edition cosmology than Golarionic one (Golarionish?).
In fact, does the Demodand story from Bestiary 3 is matching their story in Golarion? Were there, in the Golarion past, the war between gods and thanatotic titans?
Actually, we DO try to make sure that what's true in the rulebooks is also true in Golarion... especially as far as monsters are concerned. And in fact, in some cases we've made slight adjustments to the initial way things worked in Golarion to match the way they might work in a rulebook—simply because we've had that much more time to make up our minds on a subject.
The demodand backstory for Bestiary 3, for example, does match—there WAS a war between the titans and the gods in Golarion's very ancient past, even though we haven't said much about that (mostly because we're saving titans and that type of content for when/if we do more mythic level stuff).
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Creative Director
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James, I'm curious about the status of petitioner's memories. The Beastiary seems to suggest only rarely do they retain their memories of their mortal lives. I find this sad because our memories make up a huge portion of who we are, and the fact when the soul goes to one of the celestial realms, they don't recognize their family members?
Death is a sad thing, and we chose to maintain that in Pathfinder, essentially. Dying should NOT be viewed as a "route to gain more power," which is what it would be if you retained your memories (and thus, it would stand to reason, your class levels and skills) upon dying and becoming a petitioner and then eventually becoming an outsider. Death is a transformation, in other words, and not one that the living should normally want.
That said... there ARE cases where a petitioner might retain a few memories or even all of their memories. Those are exceptions to the rule though, and should only happen VERY VERY rarely. Note: This means that if it only ever happens to the PCs, that means that it only ever happens to 4 or so characters in any one campaign... which is plenty rare.
But yeah... dying is not a happy thing.
Is it before or after judgement. And is it, in case of Golarion cosmology only limited to lower planes, like in Great Wheel or does it extend beyond?
(It just occured to me that I would prefer it to be a separate plane connecting different planes accessible to souls and acting like a spirit conduit through the multiverse.)
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Is it before or after judgement. And is it, in case of Golarion cosmology only limited to lower planes, like in Great Wheel or does it extend beyond?
(It just occured to me that I would prefer it to be a separate plane connecting different planes accessible to souls and acting like a spirit conduit through the multiverse.)
The "memory wipe" happens at judgement, when a soul is sent onward and becomes a petitioner.
Isn't there something about passing through the River Styx, the "waters of forgetfulness"...? Or am I mixing up my mythologies?
You're thinking Greek Mythology. Specifically the River Lethe.
You're thinking Greek Mythology. Specifically the River Lethe.Isn't there something about passing through the River Styx, the "waters of forgetfulness"...? Or am I mixing up my mythologies?
In Greek Mythology it was Lethe that erased memories *but* in D&D cosmology Styx water were given that properties as a part of carefree mixing of real world names and ideas that created large parts of D&D.
... though we haven't said much about that (mostly because we're saving titans and that type of content for when/if we do more mythic level stuff).
I saw that :)
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Creative Director
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You said Athiests may either go to the boneyard or wander around as sprits..
What about Nay-thiests?
You know, people who know gods exist, but really don't care for them and kinda want them to frack off and leave them alone?
Same thing, although reincarnation happens more often in that case.
I'm a little confused now. I thought, when a Golarianite who worships a god dies, he/she goes to the realm of their god as petitioners. Then, when they reach 'enlightenment'(I'm not sure what is meant by this), they become a outsider appropriate to their alignment. So what is this about wondering spirits and reincarnation? I know this is mostly fluff which would rarely if ever come up in a game, but I like knowing about all the little bits and pieces of the Golarion Cosmology :)
@Barong: Read the JJ answers again. Reincarnation and spirit wandering are fates usually doled to those who weren't worshippers of gods, either because of lack of faith, or lack of interest or by focusing on philosophies that weren't much into gods.
Some of divinities could also pick such fate for souls of their worshippers as they would deem appropriate (I think that Irori would favor this approach: "you were trying hard but you were really incompetent in your life despite many tries, you weren't lazy and you were honestly dedicated to becoming better, however, so I'll reward you with another chance to perfect yourself").
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Correct. Reincarnation and ascension to wandering spirit are the standard rewards for for non-worshipers like atheists and agnostics.
Doesn't always work that way; sometimes they DO go on to become petitioners or to be tormented, just as those who worship deities sometimes reincarnate or become wandering spirits.
Not to open a can of worms, and I am asking as a fan..
But did that whole 'vault of souls' stuff get retconned? Just curious.
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Not to open a can of worms, and I am asking as a fan..
But did that whole 'vault of souls' stuff get retconned? Just curious.
Nope. The vault of souls still exists... although if I were developing it today (I didn't develop it back in the day) I'd be more clear on the fact that not EVERY atheist ends up in that particular graveyard.
Nope. The vault of souls still exists... although if I were developing it today (I didn't develop it back in the day) I'd be more clear on the fact that not EVERY atheist ends up in that particular graveyard.Not to open a can of worms, and I am asking as a fan..
But did that whole 'vault of souls' stuff get retconned? Just curious.
That's good on both counts, I think. That it's still true, and your clarification.
Death is a sad thing, and we chose to maintain that in Pathfinder, essentially. Dying should NOT be viewed as a "route to gain more power," which is what it would be if you retained your memories (and thus, it would stand to reason, your class levels and skills) upon dying and becoming a petitioner and then eventually becoming an outsider. Death is a transformation, in other words, and not one that the living should normally want.
That said... there ARE cases where a petitioner might retain a few memories or even all of their memories. Those are exceptions to the rule though, and should only happen VERY VERY rarely. Note: This means that if it only ever happens to the PCs, that means that it only ever happens to 4 or so characters in any one campaign... which is plenty rare.
But yeah... dying is not a happy thing.
James, if you would, help me out here. I see what you're saying from a game/mechanics perspective. (Although, one could argue that since the physical form has changed, you wouldn't necessarily get to keep class levels and such.)
However, my question is more campaign-oriented. Since Golarion lacks a "common underworld" like in Greek mythology, where does the reward/punishment angle really come into play if someone doesn't remember anything when you get to the other side? I think it would be a tough sell to convince someone to follow the straight-and-narrow of LG if when you finally get to Heaven, you don't remember anything that got you there. I.e., there's no "reward".
Similarly, it'd be pretty easy for someone to embrace evil. "So I'm going to Hell when I die. So what? It's not like I'll even remember who I was or what got me there."
If there's no memory of one's actions to be accounted for, I would think the vast majority of Golarion's inhabitants would view it as a cruel game of chance and opt for the agnostic/atheist route in hopes of getting another turn on the reincarnation wheel, and flip a big-ole-bird at the planes & gods.
Can you help describe how the various churches address such an objection? B/c in a world where the gods' existence isn't in dispute, I'd think it would have come up. Given Golarion's 1000s of years of history, I'd think it would have come up a LOT.
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@BPorter:
That...doesn't really folow. If you knew you were going to get amnesia, would you not care whether you woke up in a prison where they tortured you or a pleasure garden? Knowing that you'd still have the same personality, just no memories.
I'd sure care. It's still, in large part, me after all. Good things still happen to good people and bad things to bad ones, and they still remain either Good or Evil (as they were when alive)...they just don't remember the exact details of their previous life.
There's also the "Doing good works." element, which becoming a Celestial eventually will allow you to do (and Good folks care about). And I'd bet that in, say, a devoted marriage of two LG people, they'll wind up together in the afterlife as well. So it's not likie there aren't various benefits...
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James, if you would, help me out here. I see what you're saying from a game/mechanics perspective. (Although, one could argue that since the physical form has changed, you wouldn't necessarily get to keep class levels and such.)
However, my question is more campaign-oriented. Since Golarion lacks a "common underworld" like in Greek mythology, where does the reward/punishment angle really come into play if someone doesn't remember anything when you get to the other side? I think it would be a tough sell to convince someone to follow the straight-and-narrow of LG if when you finally get to Heaven, you don't remember anything that got you there. I.e., there's no "reward".
Similarly, it'd be pretty easy for someone to embrace evil. "So I'm going to Hell when I die. So what? It's not like I'll even remember who I was or what got me there."
If there's no memory of one's actions to be accounted for, I would think the vast majority of Golarion's inhabitants would view it as a cruel game of chance and opt for the agnostic/atheist route in hopes of getting another turn on the reincarnation wheel, and flip a big-ole-bird at the planes & gods.
Can you help describe how the various churches address such an objection? B/c in a world where the gods' existence isn't in dispute, I'd think it would have come up. Given Golarion's 1000s of years of history, I'd think it would have come up a LOT.
The loss of memory of the previous life does not in any way diminish the rapture or torment of the reward or punishment. For the vast majority of those who live, the exact mechanics of what happens when you die and are sent on to your final reward/torment are hazy—they know about the rewards and torments, but don't really comprehend the full extent of what losing memories entails.
The information I post here or that we print in books about what happens, in other words, isn't really common knowledge—it's stuff that the GM needs to know about how the game works, and it's stuff that doesn't really spoil the game for players to know... but the actual NPCs in the world? They have no idea.
And the ego of an intelligent creature is such that it's just fundamentally difficult for most people to separate themselves from a new personality that they might turn into—to most folks, being punished or rewarded forever is just that, regardless of what personality or memory they might have.
So, the various churches do NOT address this objection, because it's not something that people know about.
Some of what Deadmanwalking says above applies as well. If you have amnesia, you're still you—you should want your future amnesiac self to not be in pain, for example.
THAT SAID, if that answer's not good enough for you, then I suggest removing the loss of memory part. Maybe say that the memory loss happens when someone turns from a petitioner into an actual outsider.
Memory loss was well know to be part of afterlife for ancient Greeks and many other religions in the past.
Also, historically reward/punishment wasn't the primary concern of religion - it was secondary to influence of deities over life. Many religions promised little reward in the afterlife for most people: middle eastern (and other, like Mezoamerican, Greek) religions considered afterlife to be just a shadow of actual life, dim, mostly memory-less repetitive pseudo-life experience for most of the folks. Special rewards/punishment was reserved for the greatest deeds and gravest sins. Many cultures focused on keeping people acting virtuosly less by religious means and more by social pressure and focus on fame/glory/good name/"face" (both while living and after death).
Thanks for the quick reply, James. I can see why Paizo has portrayed things this way from a mechanics standpoint and I can see the mythology vibes you’re trying to evoke as well. Perhaps if the Golarion afterlife consisted solely of Pharasma’s realm it’d be an easier sell for me. But lacking a common underworld, Drejk’s comments on early Earth religions doesn’t really convince me. The influence on the mortal realm bit I agree with.
As for the amnesia comparisons, they don’t really hold together for me, either. If the memory loss wipes out character levels, skills, etc. as well as memories of your life – you’re effectively (or at least potentially) a different person. Fiction loves portraying the amnesiac who is markedly different that their original self – the villain-turned-hero being a popular one. I can accept the amnesia analogy, but it seems kind of weak when taken against the whole of the Pathfinder cosmology. For those damned to Hell, it could be a scenario where – as with prisons – everyone claims to be innocent. Unfortunately for these evil souls, they could truly believe that they are innocent and be completely sincere that they aren't supposed to be there. For the machinations of devils actively corrupting mortals, wouldn’t it be more satisfying for the damned soul to truly appreciate the horror of having damned itself via an infernal contract than to have little or no recollection about how they got there?
Also, given the relative ease at which divine divination magic exists & interactions with outsiders occurs, it seems odd to me that in Golarion’s 1000s of years of recorded history, no one has really questioned what the afterlife is like or why it's better to get to Heaven versus Elysium (or the reverse). You’d think at the very least some kid would innocently ask a cleric (they’re good at those kinds of questions, especially when confronted with death for the first time). Said cleric might begin to wonder, then research the faith’s writings and teachings. If she came up empty after that, she might then ask via divination or communication with an outsider.
Finally, this is a game & setting where outsiders not only interact with mortals, they sometimes have relations with them and beget children. It apparently happens often enough that tieflings and aasimars aren’t unique creatures – yet no mortal has thought to ask “So what’s Heaven like? What’s it like getting there from Pharasma’s realm?”
I really do appreciate you answering my question. Since plane-hopping adventures aren’t my typical cup of tea, it’s not really going to impact my campaign in any great way and of course I can modify things as necessary. This has just been one topic that unlike 98% of the rest of Golarion lore, just doesn’t really hang together for me.
Thank you for the answers, though. Just another example of why Paizo rocks!
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I always saw, and ran, memory loss as gradual if it happens at all(in some cases yes, some cases no, depends on a lot of factors).
Hell gradually wears down your identity if it chooses, until you're just another brick in the wall, possibly literally. In other cases, one's suffering burns more brightly when the memory is branded onto the soul. In those cases, forgetting would be a mercy, and Hell ain't having any of that.
The Abyss overwhelms with its madness, warping its inhabitants mentally, physically, and spiritually. There, retaining one's identity is likely a matter of will. Or time.
The upper planes get into this too, but it's not an intentional thing for the most part. The sheer spiritual sensory overload of these planes can wear away at one's attatchments to their mortal existence. It's like living most of your life in the worst parts of Detroit from the future of Robocop and moving to, say, Super Hawaii. Times infinity. And sometimes forgetting can be a mercy when it comes to certain memories. In other cases, some things must be remembered, both good and bad.
With the upper planes, a lot of the finer details of memory can be lost. But the "core" of these memories remains intact. The feeling behind them.
The soul that was Bob can't remember the love of his mortal life's name. But he still feels an undeniable connection to the soul that was Alice when they meet on the fields of Nirvana.
But there's no way he can remember his old bank account number.
What happens to worshippers of Rovagug? I doubt Pharasma should send them into his/its prison.
What happens to worshippers of Rovagug? I doubt Pharasma should send them into his/its prison.
Abyss, I guess, for those who followed the most Chaotic Evil of deities.
What happens to worshippers of Rovagug? I doubt Pharasma should send them into his/its prison.
Why not? Those followers mad enough to worship the Beast should not be witheld from their deity's presence in the afterlife. (Unless said communion would provide a means of release...)
I imagine Pharasma knows something the daemons don't. :3
Excellent thought. Now I just imagined Pharasma holding a chess board and saying "check mate" in a voice befitting her in tone.
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I imagine Pharasma knows something the daemons don't. :3Excellent thought. Now I just imagined Pharasma holding a chess board and saying "check mate" in a voice befitting her in tone.
And when the daemons overturn the board, leaving her holding one rook, she shakes her head sadly and, in the same tone, says, "That won't help, you know."