Hi all,
I am a big fan of Dreamscarred Press and their commendable efforts in bringing Psionics into the Pathfinder RPG universe in a bold and fun way.
My DM decided to allow psionics into our current campaign after much pleading, and I am now and have been playing a Psychic Warrior (Assassin's Path) since it was released. I am currently level 10 (we play on the slow experience track), and it has been very fun and rewarding.
Recently, however, my DM has stared feeling as if my character is approaching a power level with which others cannot compete (I am the only psionic character in the group).
He has decided to house-rule a few things, including the powers Zealous Fury, Vigor, and the special material Deepcrystal, and after bringing us up against our first real Psi-NPC to devastating effect, he has really turned a questioning eye in the direction of psionics.
All of us really enjoy the balance that Pathfinder RPG offers, and the lack of need to house rule every other thing to maintain this balance.
He asked me scour the forums and get a few opinions on what everyone else is doing out there with Psionics in their campaigns...do you allow or disallow? If you allow, what material do you use?
I really appreciate the input, as I have a significant amount of time invested into my character, and would love to continue playing her as is, but if necessary I will change for the greater good of the game.
Thanks in advance, everyone!
I once took out an entire army with Wall of Sonic and Sleet Storm. Man, that was fun.
I have done more than a brief search, ShadowcatX.
But as I have found no definitive answer, I thought I'd politely ask as it applies to my specific situation and maybe others out there.
What really gave him pause, is that last night we went up against a lich who used a death attack spell and effectively knocked out the entire party due to poor rolls, except myself (yay for high Fort saves as a Psychic Warrior!). Since I was totally fresh on power points, I managed to stand toe to toe with said lich, matching him Dimension Door to Fold Space until we were both pretty much exhausted of 'tricks' and it came down to trading blows, at which point I emerged the victor.
I appreciate the feedback guys.
Psionics are balanced, as long as you remember the #1 rule: You can never spend more power points on a single power then you have manifester levels. A 10th level psion or psychic warrior can only spend a maximum of 10 power points on any single power.
(I am assuming that Dreamscarred Press didn't change that particular rule.)
If your GM only has 1 or 2 fights a day that might also be an issue, especially if that is what he always does, and the players know it. They can metagame, and then nova.
I saved my swift/immediate actions, plain and simple.
Fireball? Immediate action Evade Burst. (I am a Weapon Finesse character and boost Dex as a secondary stat)
Touch attack? Immediate action Psionic Dodge to gain +4 vs the attack.
I even used Elan Resistance once to gain a +4 racial bonus vs a Fortitude save against what I am guessing was a death spell.
My biggest issue (as it should be with melee vs caster) is that she "kited" me, dimension dooring away and causing me to waste time finding her, and spending valuable power points to Fold Space to close the distance.
Sometimes I didn't have a trick up my sleeve, and I simply had to eat negative energy.
It wasn't an easy fight, and I had about 18 hit points and 1 power point left at the end of it.
If your GM only has 1 or 2 fights a day that might also be an issue, especially if that is what he always does, and the players know it. They can metagame, and then nova.Which is no different from any other spell caster.
I agree to a large extent, but psionics do it easier, at least in 3.5 anyway.
What I never understood is how a GM refuses to enforce resource management and blame the class. They feel like they have to allow the PC's a chance to rest if they are irresponsible. If a player blows through spells or pp's in my game they just have to deal with it.
What is kiting?
Attacking, and running away, keeping the range distance equal between you and the guy you're kiting.
So you went into an epic battle with everything hanging on you, and came out barely alive? That sounds like a resounding success, save that the rest of the party were not involved - but that, I hasten to add, was not your fault.
I take it you are using magic/psionic transparency?
OK, here's what happened: Your DM played to your strengths. You didn't do much that a monk could not have done, believe it or not, you were simply the lich's worst nightmare: a combat character with good saves and enough special abilities to counter his usual dodges and escapes. Plus, you were fresh to the fight.
Fireball? Monks have good dex and good reflex saves, plus Evasion.
Touch attack? Best touch AC ever, and spend a ki point for +4 dodge bonus.
Fortitude save? Monks get good fort saves too.
Dimension dooring away? Abundant Step and/or fast movement.
And yes, a monk that closed with a lich could beat the stuffing out of them as well with flurry of blows effective for once against a lower-than-normal AC target.
The psychic warrior was and still is one of the best balanced classes in D&D. Ironically, your worst nightmare is a procession of dedicated fighters in sequence, not a caster.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
So let me see if I understand correctly.
Because of a character you created that had a variety of offensive and defensive options available, played well and using those options to their full potential, you turned what would have been a TPK into a by-the-seat-of-your-pants win, and the concern here is that psionics is overpowered?
Did your DM want you all to die and you foiled his plans?
What I see is a situation where you were able to use all the tools at your disposal - but had nothing left if anyone else showed up and would likely have killed you.
That seems OK to me...
I haven't had too many problems with Psionics in general or Psychic Warriors in particular, and haven't had to disallow anything in particular. Here's a few things that might be going on:
- Your character might simply be built more powerfully than some of the other characters - a higher degree of optimization will just make your guy better.
- There might be some rule somewhere you're missing that would otherwise limit the power of the character. For example, some players miss that you can't spend more PP on a power than your manifester level.
- Your group might tend towards shorter workdays, which disproportionately benefit psionic casters, who have an impressive ability to dump all of their daily resources into a single fight if given the chance.
- There might be just a perception issue. There are some things that some psionic classes are just a little better at, and some things they're worse at. Many players, when they witness a psionic class being especially good at more or less anything - even their own character - will perceive them as overpowered, even if they're not out-of-band once you break it down. Psionic classes are not just clones of core classes with a spell point system; they have their own strengths and weaknesses, but their strengths feel transgressive to some players, especially players who are already wary of psionics or 3PP content. For example, consider Vigor. In the event that a tenth-level Psychic warrior with, say, 18 Wisdom used all 48 of his daily PP casting five giant castings of Vigor, he'd get 240 Temp HP spread out over the course of the day. That sure sounds like a lot! But compare that to an Inquisitor with a mere 14 Wisdom - just enough to cast his spells - who blows every single spell on cure spells, something generally considered to be a horrifying waste of your daily spells and not remotely close to an optimal strategy. He'll heal 251 damage (assuming average rolls) over the course of the day doing something that's universally considered a really bad idea! Sure, there's some other pros and cons, like the inquisitor can't bestow the HP preemptively and needs to spend more rounds casting, but he can also give it to anyone in the party instead of just himself and he doesn't "waste" any of the HPs if they weren't needed. I'm assuming your game hasn't encountered problems with inquisitors (or equivalently, bards) who use a lot of their daily spells on healing spells, and Vigor doesn't really work out to be any better. Obviously the classes have loads of other differences too, so this isn't proof that Vigor is an okay ability, and gameplay experience should generally overrule theorycraft, but that Vigor is too good as written might be just an illusion.
- Psychic Warrior might just be a really good class in PF. I've had no issues with it, but I think I've run like two ever, plus maybe a one-shot here or there.
- Psychic Warrior might just be a really good class in PF. I've had no issues with it, but I think I've run like two ever, plus maybe a one-shot here or there.
Psychic warrior is a solid performer, likened to a cleric but with bardic spell progression. He's basically a 3/4 BAB class with martial weapons, heavy armour and is largely self-buffing. He has no weaknesses that cannot be covered by his powers (like any caster), which gives him the illusion of being powerful sometimes. On the flip side, his offensive ability is generally limited to what his powers can assist him with.
Not being able to cast it before hand and having to use their actions in combat is a pretty huge difference there Joyd.
I felt very much the same, and I really appreciate all the input.
I never considered that a monk would be just as useful (if not more so, bludgeoning fists, right?), and I will bring that up in argument when I present my case, Dabbler.
I won't deny that I felt like a champ at the end of the battle, but as you say Mr. Smith (So thrilled to see your input here!), if anything would have come along and kicked me in the knee, it would have been the end of me.
All of the fights we as a party get into are challenging, and my DM is an absolute maestro at gaming and storyweaving (please understand he is not power raging on me, he spoke to me after our session last night in hopes of coming to a resolution we can both be happy with). It is because I respect him and enjoy his games so much that I am searching for prominent and helpful gamers like nearly everyone posting here to give me a bit of 'ammo' in which to present him.
Thanks so much all.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I honestly think it can be boiled down to a few bullet points:
The rest of the party rolled poorly - can't blame psionics there. :)
You rolled well - again, can't blame psionics there. :)
Your party - 10th level - went up against a lich without having something like Death Ward going - psionics doesn't have anything comparable, so I'd actually point to whoever is on healing duty as being to blame here.
When everyone else dropped out, you used every tool at your disposal - class features, racial abilities, and well-designed character selections - to survive.
I don't think there's a problem with evaluating the encounter and making sure nothing is imbalanced, but I just don't think the problem here is "psionics". I think it's a situation where you had a well-designed character - I count 4 powers (Vigor, Zealous Fury, Evade Burst, and Fold Space) and 1 feat that you selected in advance that allowed you to survive.
You designed a good melee combatant with the ability to close distances.
You faced an enemy weak against melee combatants who tried to put distance between you.
It ended up being an encounter you were actually pretty well designed to handle.
I never considered that a monk would be just as useful (if not more so, bludgeoning fists, right?), and I will bring that up in argument when I present my case, Dabbler.
You are welcome - any melee class closing with a caster is bad news for the caster. He let you close, he paid the price.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
What really gave him pause, is that last night we went up against a lich who used a death attack spell and effectively knocked out the entire party due to poor rolls, except myself (yay for high Fort saves as a Psychic Warrior!).
Let me start by saying I DO understand the part of this that worried your GM -- you ended up taking on his big bad guy basically solo, and that worries him.
But your GM should also consider that, as you have described it, everyone else got taken out by poor die rolls. I presume a bad die roll could have taken you out, but just didn't.
So, how would other characters have handled the lich solo? Consider what a 10th level paladin can do to a lich with some good die rolls. Or a cleric. Indeed, would a cleric with the luck domain been able to use good fortune to make up the bad roll, and stay in the fight? Then use bit of luck to make anyone else even more dangerous? Does that make the luck domain overpowered?
Psionic characters can "nova" more brightly that many other classes, because they can use all the points to use their best powers at maximum effect -- it's like if a sorcerer could give up five 1st level spell slots to cast an extra 5th level spell. And like that description, it means the psionic character has a lot less back-up after going nova.
So this means that, yes, in certain situations the psionic character has more effective choices. However, in a game with an even distribution of types of encounters (traps, fights, negotiations, environmental exploration, courtroom diplomacy, and so on), number of fights per day, and random foe composition (mobs, solo baddies, single elite foes with back-up, and so on), the psionic character won't be more effective as a whole, over the long term, than other characters.
For example: consider a psionic in a forest having to track down, fight, and rescue people from giants over 6 encounters in the same day. Now, compare him to a ranger who has giants as his primary favored enemy, and forest as his main favored terrain. Who is more effective. It's situational, but it's not an unreasonable situation.
Of course many groups have a play style that focuses on a smaller number of counter types and enemy forces compositions. This means that often, for those groups, some character classes and builds are significantly more effective within the group. But as long as the RPG allows for and assumes a broad range of adventures, there's no way to make every class exactly as effective in ever situation, without making all the classes basically the same.
Dreamscarred has done a great job with psionics. Their result is, on the whole and overall, balanced against official Pathfinder options. Like all the d20 psionics rules, they create outliers in certain kinds of encounters, like when you face a single powerful foe, have a full load of resources, and are willing to use it all in one encounter.
|
|
I have a soft spot for psionics myself. When used in a standard PF campaign I've found that can be overpowered if no one else has psi. That includes the enemy. It would be the same if there was a whole group if interesting spells that no one else had access to. If your campaign has psi powers as standard, available to everyone, including those you run up against, then there is no balance issue.
I've been looking into psionics more lately since my group wants to begin a psi campaign after the current one wraps up. I've found that the standard classes from 3.5 seem to be well done. The Psionics Expanded booklets don't seem to be as well-balanced, in my opinion. However, I have not used the expanded options in a campaign yet, so I can't say for sure. I don't think balance should be a problem if you're running a PsiWar straight out of Psionics Unleashed.
I've been using a wilder in a pure PF game on these boards. So far she hasn't out-performed anyone at all, concentrating on blasting foes and de-buffing them. Her damage output looks nasty, packing 6d6 with an energy ray on a wild surge at 4th level - but the cost is not inconsiderable. Melee-wise she's tougher than a conventional caster, but her lack of versatility means this become inevitable at some point.
I think much of it might have to do with how psionics is played in the system. Does it play like magic or is it its own power base?
In our game, dispel magic works vs. psionics, and dispel psionics works vs. magic. There is no separation of the two as far as combat rules. I believe this was referred to as the transparency rule?
Yup. Doing non-transparency can cause problems.
I'm making extensive use of Psionics Unleashed in my campaign, but, so far, only for NPCs and villains. None of the players have opted for anything psionic. IME, I've found the psionic classes to be slightly underpowered or, at least, underperforming. It could be just me.
I have always played that psionics are different from magic.
It might be that the DM's monsters are not magic using?
The Psionics Expanded booklets don't seem to be as well-balanced, in my opinion. However, I have not used the expanded options in a campaign yet, so I can't say for sure.
Please feel free to voice specific concerns - here or to me directly.
While it may or not be a problem, it can always be reevaluated. :)
If your GM only has 1 or 2 fights a day that might also be an issue, especially if that is what he always does, and the players know it. They can metagame, and then nova.
This, of course, is as big a problem with vancian magic as it is with power points. Always try to avoid the 10 minute adventuring day when possible, and if your players nova and try to rest immediately afterwards ... interrupt their rest. Over and over again. Bwuahahaha.
|
|
If your GM only has 1 or 2 fights a day that might also be an issue, especially if that is what he always does, and the players know it. They can metagame, and then nova.This, of course, is as big a problem with vancian magic as it is with power points.
It's a problem for Vanican spellcasters, but it's not AS big a problem. Vanican mages can't use all their spell energy to cast everything as a top level spell. Once you use your two or three top level spells (whatever level that is), you have to step it down a notch. A psionic can use his best stuff at full efficiency until he's drained all his points, meaning his full resource can be spent at max output.
It's a slightly bigger nova, though it does leave you with even less left in the tank.
As long as a GM changes things up, that's fine. If the GM doesn't ever hit you when you are down, it can be a problem.
I removed a post. Not helping.
What is kiting?
Kiting is a mmo term that means hit and run so they can never hit back.
It's probably fine with a bit of understanding.
Except for ego whip.
If your GM only has 1 or 2 fights a day that might also be an issue, especially if that is what he always does, and the players know it. They can metagame, and then nova.This, of course, is as big a problem with vancian magic as it is with power points.It's a problem for Vanican spellcasters, but it's not AS big a problem. Vanican mages can't use all their spell energy to cast everything as a top level spell. Once you use your two or three top level spells (whatever level that is), you have to step it down a notch. A psionic can use his best stuff at full efficiency until he's drained all his points, meaning his full resource can be spent at max output.
It's a slightly bigger nova, though it does leave you with even less left in the tank.
As long as a GM changes things up, that's fine. If the GM doesn't ever hit you when you are down, it can be a problem.
I'd buy this if it weren't for the fact a 20th level wizard is still going to stop and pop Magnificent Mansion when he blows through his good spells. He's not going to continue adventuring because he has some more magic missile and scorching ray spells. I've compared psi-novas vs mage-novas in the past, on these boards. Mage novas are scarier. A large part of it comes from free-scaling. I mean, there's not much difference between Fireball at 10th level and Cone of Cold at 10th level. Not a lot of difference in the general power of 6th-8th level spells either (in fact, 6th level spells are often better for various reasons).
In addition to my own research, psi vs spell has been compared on the WotC boards years ago, and can still be found today on other forums. Pound for pound, arcane casters have more effective juice. Psions just get more intuitive with how to spend it.
This is a huge point in favor of the psion, since they can participate in multiple weak encounters, or singular huge encounters, by changing their pacing. Psions can actually reduce the need for the 15 minute workday.
I agree Ashiel that magic is stronger, but the ability cast your most powerful spells whenever you want until you have no juice left is something a caster can't do. In the world of a psion those magic missiles, and scorching rays are represented by pp's, and they can be combined to activate a higher level power. The fact that it is allowed to happen in game is still a GM issue in my opinion however. I figure if it is only giving some people issues, and less than half from what I have witnessed the issue is not psionics.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't actually have any experience with 3.x Psionic Power Point systems, but it seems very obvious to me that everybody here isn't so much responding to the OP's question, but responding to the idea that Psionic Power Points itself is being attacked/questioned.
The first post said:
He has decided to house-rule a few things, including the powers Zealous Fury, Vigor, and the special material Deepcrystal, and after bringing us up against our first real Psi-NPC to devastating effect, he has really turned a questioning eye in the direction of psionics.
...do you allow or disallow? If you allow, what material do you use?
That's hardly some black or white, love Psi-Points or hate them, type of question.
He already stated that his GM/group is modifying SOME STUFF from Dreamscarred (Zealous Fury, Vigor, Deepcrystal).He was trying to poll the community on what they themselves play with, with what specific material is allowed.
This is hardly a topic unique to Psi-Power Points, specific Items/Feats/Spells/Archetypes/etc whether magic or martial, etc, are commonly disallowed for balance or any other reason... Is Dreamscarred really so perfect that they could never publishing something that perhaps could use some minor tweaking?
Many posts here on these boards recognize that ANYTHING in the game is accepted into to the game on a GM by GM basis. But I see very few responses here that can just humbly share their wisdom on the subject... Umbral Reaver seems to be the only one I saw:
It's probably fine with a bit of understanding.
Except for ego whip.
I have no idea if ego whip is truly problematic as written, but that's the sort of thing that seems more constructive to what the OP's looking for... Which is just how to improve his game he's been enjoying so far, not whether or not Psionic Power Points should be damned to hell or elevated to heaven.
I agree Ashiel that magic is stronger, but the ability cast your most powerful spells whenever you want until you have no juice left is something a caster can't do. In the world of a psion those magic missiles, and scorching rays are represented by pp's, and they can be combined to activate a higher level power. The fact that it is allowed to happen in game is still a GM issue in my opinion however. I figure if it is only giving some people issues, and less than half from what I have witnessed the issue is not psionics.
I've played my share of both Psions and Wizards. Wizards are definitely more powerful, and have way, way more options at their disposal to push their resources beyond the usual limits. Wizards have things like spare scrolls, pearls of power, rings of wizardry, and crazy spells like simulacrum which by itself makes stuff like Fission and Fusion look like sissy magic. Psionics don't benefit from free scaling, so they have to spend more points for their stuff to remain valid, because while the wizard is dealing 17.5 average damage with the same 1st level spell slot at 5th level, the psionicist is dealing 1d6 unless he spends 5 PP, and effectively is burning a 5th level spell.
In essence, psionics is balanced around the idea that you are going to be using your early PP to pay for powers later on. That's why psionic power is exponential. You begin with a piddly amount when a piddly amount is alright for gameplay (like when 1d6 up to 4/day isn't so bad). The system is balanced around this expectation. Because at 5th level, you will need to be spending between 3-5 points at a time to remain useful in most cases, with some specific but fair exceptions (like sitting back and throwing 1 PP entangling ectoplasms to debuff single targets, which can be kinda helpful, but that's mostly a conservation tactic).
Let's not also forget that wizards can rock their low level spells with things like metamagic rods (psionicists do not have these things). A maximized scorching ray is gnarly. 24 damage / ray, up to 3 rays, for a 2nd level slot, 3/day. Book of Harms allows you to maximize a spell 1/day by taking 1d4 damage * spell level of the cst spell. Such a negligible effect, as you can trade 1d4 HP for a maximized Magic Missile to crush something for 25 damage at 9th level, still 1st level.
Again, I'm a big fan of Wizards and Psions both, and I couldn't tell anyone that Psions were stronger than Wizards with a strait face. Especially at nova-ing. Wizards and sorcerers are freaking scary when they nova. That might have to do with how strong their sustained strength is (due to free scaling), or it might be due to their spells being stronger than powers (many are), or it might be because they enjoy better power up items which they can craft (which they do), or it might be just knowing how to drop 1 spell during the entire encounter and bring ruin to your enemies (hm, I wonder if there's a psionic version of haste or black tentacles in a DSP splatbook somewhere...).
This, of course, is as big a problem with vancian magic as it is with power points.It's a problem for Vanican spellcasters, but it's not AS big a problem. Vanican mages can't use all their spell energy to cast everything as a top level spell. Once you use your two or three top level spells (whatever level that is), you have to step it down a notch. A psionic can use his best stuff at full efficiency until he's drained all his points, meaning his full resource can be spent at max output.
That all depends, really. A 10th level psion and a 10th level wizard can both dish out their top level powers/spells yes. But the wizard can also chuck in a fireball for 10d6 damage from the 3rd level spell slot; the psion has to augment the power to ten power points to do the same base damage, which is the same cost as a 5-1/2 level spell.
A lot of psionic powers need augmentation like this, so you only get the same out of them as the wizard did if you burn them as a top-level 'spell'.
Basically, the psion has less resources, his powers consume more of them, he has less powers than the wizard has spells (and the wizard gets to choose his options daily), but he gets to use them more flexibly.
So whether the wizard-nova is better or worse than the psion-nova really does depend on the wizard and the psion.
This, of course, is as big a problem with vancian magic as it is with power points.It's a problem for Vanican spellcasters, but it's not AS big a problem. Vanican mages can't use all their spell energy to cast everything as a top level spell. Once you use your two or three top level spells (whatever level that is), you have to step it down a notch. A psionic can use his best stuff at full efficiency until he's drained all his points, meaning his full resource can be spent at max output.That all depends, really. A 10th level psion and a 10th level wizard can both dish out their top level powers/spells yes. But the wizard can also chuck in a fireball for 10d6 damage from the 3rd level spell slot; the psion has to augment the power to ten power points to do the same base damage, which is the same cost as a 5-1/2 level spell.
A lot of psionic powers need augmentation like this, so you only get the same out of them as the wizard did if you burn them as a top-level 'spell'.
Basically, the psion has less resources, his powers consume more of them, he has less powers than the wizard has spells (and the wizard gets to choose his options daily), but he gets to use them more flexibly.
So whether the wizard-nova is better or worse than the psion-nova really does depend on the wizard and the psion.
Thank you Dabbler; very well put.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is Dreamscarred really so perfect that they could never publishing something that perhaps could use some minor tweaking?
The OP posted a few follow-up posts in the thread, which shifted the focus of the thread. He also responded to the posts that came in with thanks for the feedback, so it would seem to me that he got enough of a response along the lines he was looking for to feel like his effort was not in vain.
Several people in the thread posted ways they play - for example, Shalafi posted that they play with psionics and magic as different. Mark posted that in his games, they've found psionics as underperforming.
I've personally posted that we're open to hearing about specific concerns about balance and mechanics.
I'm not sure where this question is coming from, because nobody has made that claim - and I will never claim to be anything close to perfect. See our errata list for proof of that.
Also keep in mind that in 3.5, psionics was largely well-balanced but had a lot of misinformation and bad blood from 2nd Ed and 3.0, so it was constantly being dubbed "overpowered" when a spellcaster would typically do better at more things more often, so psionic fans tend to respond quickly to calls of it being OP when most of the time the issue is more with perception than with actual game-play.
I don't actually have any experience with 3.x Psionic Power Point systems, but it seems very obvious to me that everybody here isn't so much responding to the OP's question, but responding to the idea that Psionic Power Points itself is being attacked/questioned.
The first post said:
He has decided to house-rule a few things, including the powers Zealous Fury, Vigor, and the special material Deepcrystal, and after bringing us up against our first real Psi-NPC to devastating effect, he has really turned a questioning eye in the direction of psionics.
...do you allow or disallow? If you allow, what material do you use?That's hardly some black or white, love Psi-Points or hate them, type of question.
He already stated that his GM/group is modifying SOME STUFF from Dreamscarred (Zealous Fury, Vigor, Deepcrystal).
He was trying to poll the community on what they themselves play with, with what specific material is allowed.
This is hardly a topic unique to Psi-Power Points, specific Items/Feats/Spells/Archetypes/etc whether magic or martial, etc, are commonly disallowed for balance or any other reason... Is Dreamscarred really so perfect that they could never publishing something that perhaps could use some minor tweaking?Many posts here on these boards recognize that ANYTHING in the game is accepted into to the game on a GM by GM basis. But I see very few responses here that can just humbly share their wisdom on the subject... Umbral Reaver seems to be the only one I saw:
I have no idea if ego whip is truly problematic as written, but that's the sort of thing that seems more constructive to what the OP's looking for... Which is just how to improve his game he's been enjoying so far, not whether or not Psionic Power Points should be damned to hell or elevated to heaven.It's probably fine with a bit of understanding.
Except for ego whip.
Sometimes people ask the wrong question or ask the question in an incorrect manner.
If the thought process is along one lines, but the solution is follows another method the question is identifying something other than the problem as the problem.I think most of us look at the issue presented, instead of the questioned asked if the two don't match up.
Example:My level 2 fighter is overpowered. How can I tone down the fighter class? <Later the player discusses his +5 greatsword and other items way beyond WBL>
In that example the fighter class is not the issue, but the question the OP ask is headed in that direction.
The scaling powers is seen as "auto-scaling". The fact that more PP's need to be spent and that not feats are needed to do it somehow makes people think it is broken.
Psionics are more focused so a psion blaster might outdamage an arcane blaster as an example. That is where many of the complaints come in, but when it comes to being able to handle a variety of situations magic has no competition.
|
|
I'd buy this if it weren't for the fact a 20th level wizard is still going to stop and pop Magnificent Mansion when he blows through his good spells. He's not going to continue adventuring because he has some more magic missile and scorching ray spells.
That's all fine and well – if the GM allows that to be an option. In a game with a mix of encounter types, some should include races against the clock where you can't choose to end your day without suffering failure. And at 20th level, mage's magnificent mansion is far from an assurance you're safe from CR 18 to 24 foes who might come after you, as dispel magic isn't that rare. If the GM does allow this to work all the time, with neither plot nor foe ever making it a bad call, that's another case of play style changing total character balance.
I've compared psi-novas vs mage-novas in the past, on these boards. Mage novas are scarier. A large part of it comes from free-scaling. I mean, there's not much difference between Fireball at 10th level and Cone of Cold at 10th level.
Actually there is a HUGE difference between a fireball and a cone of cold – the save DC for cone of cold is 2 higher. That's a much bigger chance of dealing full damage vs half damage (or no damage vs targets with evasion). Not to mention that the total area of a cone of cold is about double that of a fireball. While they both do 10d6 at 10th level, the players I run playtests with can get much, much more out a cone of cold through a combination of the higher save and clever tactics.
Also, you picked the "closest" character level to compare the 2 spells, just exactly when fireball has hit its damage cap. By 11th level, cone of cold gets both the bigger save DC and an extra die of damage.
While it is true that Vancian spellcasters get considerable free scaling up with their spells, the save DC is almost always relevant, and higher level spells almost always have more going for them than just damage dice.
I'm not saying psioncs aren't, on the whole, balanced. But they can, in fact maintain a maximum intensity nova longer, even though it burns out the rest of their options faster.
My two cents.
Just because other class/trick/build can be more OP or PP that something this doesn't mean that that thing is ok.
In the last campaign i did as a gm i found that, yes, psionic are "less powerfull than wizard" but that at the same times the guys who use psionic are (at least in my case)way better at optimizing that the others; maybe because one can play a warrior or a wizard without major problem even if he don't optimize it much and the psionic user have to put mor tought in it.
Also, in my case, i noticed that a lot of argument "arcane is better that psionic" revolve around PP builds (and even extreme pp builds and also veri high lvl) not your average pg. And when one of my players started using a psionic in the middle of an "average" group, i got the impression that it was too much even if "xyz PP arcane caster build / trick is better".
Personally i don't like psionic and their whole concept and i thank god that they aren't in pathfinder standard material.