| 10 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
This comes from another thread.
Some of us believe that if you have effective caster levels then those caster levels apply any time a spell calls for caster levels.
Others believe that abilities and items that add caster levels only apply to certain spells.
Example
Planer binding is limited by a phrase limiting the creature's HD to the character's caster level.
I believe you would be able to control/call a more powerful creature if you have access to additional caster levels.
Things like prayer beads boost caster levels.
Here is my stance:
"Your ability to use a spell is determined by how powerful you are as a caster in many cases, which is based referenced as caster level. The pseudo caster levels don't give you more spells, but they do increase your power.
If it would apply to caster level checks, other spells, and concentration checks, I don't see why it would not apply to gate".
Discuss
I was under the assumption that everything you just said was gospel from on high. Otherwise, what do the "pseudo" caster levels do for you?
That is how I saw it too, but I have recently discovered there are some who do not agree.
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I was under the assumption that everything you just said was gospel from on high. Otherwise, what do the "pseudo" caster levels do for you?That is how I saw it too, but I have recently discovered there are some who do not agree.
I learned last year there are people who do not agree the earth isn't flat. I've learned from the Paizo messageboards that 12 different people can read the same single paragraph of text and take it in 12 different ways. I have learned, that getting people to agree with things, is difficult at best. We will, sadly, never come to an agreement over many things. We gamers on the boards have taken to defaulting to "we agree to disagree, good day sir", to avoid 1,000 page threads arguing over stuff that is actually less important than either Religion or Politics (two other major often hot and testy topics).
I'll throw my lot in with what you have said Wraithstrike, because that is how I see it, and how I've always known it to be since 3E. There will, however, always be those who disagree.
Wraith, you have not accurately expressed the difference here.
What I am saying about "Gate" in particular is that while the spell may very well be cast at "effective caster level 22" the portion of the spell which defines if you can control the called creature refers to "caster level" not "effective caster level" and so a level 18 cleric cannot control a 22 HD solar simply by spending 45,000g on some prayer beads.
That's the issue I was raising.
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Since the other side is making their case...
Your effective caster level for, say a fireball, can be higher for the effects that come as a result of that spell.
However your actual caster level doesn't change.
Because you can add more damage dice doesn't change what actual level you are as a caster, it just means you cast that particular spell better.
When a spell references your caster level, it references your caster level, not your effective caster level for that particular spell because you are under some kind of effect.
There are a number of references to effective caster level rather than caster level throughout all of the books for a reason. It is different than your caster level.
Ashiel, while it is indubitably true that there are those who still argue the earth is flat, it is also just as undeniably true that some people will misunderstand or mischaracterize another person's position or argument and then condescendingly snark about what they apparently don't understand themselves.
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The exact example given was to argue that with prayer beads, a cleric could gate a Solar (a 22 hd creature)
The wording for the bead of karma is
"Wearer casts his spells at +4 caster level. Effect lasts 10 minutes."
It isn't "The wearers caster level is +4" for 10 minutes a level.
The wearer's caster level doesn't change, any more than the wearers HD changes. What changes it the effective level of the spells they cast.
That is the position.
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Ashiel, while it is indubitably true that there are those who still argue the earth is flat, it is also just as undeniably true that some people will misunderstand or mischaracterize another person's position or argument and then condescendingly snark about what they apparently don't understand themselves.
Careful, she will sneakily throw a glowing rock at you...
Ciretose... heh..
It is hard enough to try to rationally and reasonably discuss issues with people, even when they don't assume that a disagreement over a rule is reason enough to be insulting, condescending and just plain rude.
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Ciretose... heh..
It is hard enough to try to rationally and reasonably discuss issues with people, even when they don't assume that a disagreement over a rule is reason enough to be insulting, condescending and just plain rude.
Fair enough, just hard not to counter punch the snark sometimes.
I FAQed my link rather than wraithstrike because I feel it more clearly spells out the disagreement.
Everyone else's mileage may vary.
In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level.
How is this different than any other use of the term "caster level" when dealing with spells?
Would it be different if a feat or trait had raised my caster level as opposed to a magic item?
The exact example given was to argue that with prayer beads, a cleric could gate a Solar (a 22 hd creature)
The wording for the bead of karma is
"Wearer casts his spells at +4 caster level. Effect lasts 10 minutes."
It isn't "The wearers caster level is +4" for 10 minutes a level.
The wearer's caster level doesn't change, any more than the wearers HD changes. What changes it the effective level of the spells they cast.
That is the position.
When you cast the spell is that not when it is determined as to what you can bring through? Or are you saying that caster level is not checked until you choose a creature, and that if you could cast the spell, and then get your caster level lowered or raised that would determine the creature you can bring through?
Wraith. I am going to try this one more time.
The prayer beads raise your effective caster level "for the purpose of casting spells."
The determination of whether a solar will obey you or not is not casting a spell. So when the solar looks at you and says "hmm... what is this cleric's caster level? Well, I see that he is temporarily under an effect that grants him additional caster levels for the purpose of casting spells but not for the purpose of controlling a solar.
I don't know how you can fail by now to understand the difference.
Hopefully, with this FAQ'd, the developers will understand why there is a distinction.
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In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level.How is this different than any other use of the term "caster level" when dealing with spells?
Would it be different if a feat or trait had raised my caster level as opposed to a magic item?
If it raised your actual caster level or your effective caster level.
If my effective caster level for evocation spells is say +2, than when I cast evocation spells I calculate my effective caster level as +2 for that spell.
However my actual caster level does not change any more than the number of hit dice I have would change if I had something that gave me temporary hit points.
One is who you always are, one is who you are because you are wearing this special item or under this spell.
Ashiel, while it is indubitably true that there are those who still argue the earth is flat, it is also just as undeniably true that some people will misunderstand or mischaracterize another person's position or argument and then condescendingly snark about what they apparently don't understand themselves.
For the record, I was neither directing that post at you nor Ciretose; nor was I implying that either of you believe the earth is flat. I was in response to Wraithstrike saying that some people disagree, which made me think about disagreements in general. If you felt it was somehow directed towards you, or was meant as a hostility, I apologize, as it was neither. I would rather not build bad blood between us. I do not dislike your posts, nor you as a person, from what I can tell. Much like Bob Loblaw, whom I consider a great poster, we have had our disagreements, but reasonable people can do so an remain good peers.
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In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level.How is this different than any other use of the term "caster level" when dealing with spells?
Would it be different if a feat or trait had raised my caster level as opposed to a magic item?
It would depend on if it raised your actual caster level or your effective caster level.
If my effective caster level for evocation spells is say +2, than when I cast evocation spells I calculate my effective caster level as +2 for that spell.
However my actual caster level does not change any more than the number of hit dice I have would change if I had something that gave me temporary hit points.
One is who you always are, one is who you are because you are wearing this special item or under this spell.
What if I get my effective caster level raised without a reference to casting spells like the bead does?
edit:or a certain school of magic, or a certain SLA, and without a phrase saying I can't go above my HD...etc
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What if I get my effective caster level raised without a reference to casting spells like the bead does?
I don't think any example exists, because I think the Devs don't want you do be able to raise your actual caster level without leveling in the same way you can't raise your HD without leveling.
It is like attack bonus. You have your base attack bonus, that doesn't change unless you level, and then you have bonuses that increase your attack bonus, number of attacks, etc...
But those are bonuses, not your BAB. You still need to meet the BAB requirement, even if effectively you meet it.
Your caster level is the number of levels you have in a caster class. Your effective caster level would be the bonuses to that base caster level you have at that time.
One can't change without leveling, one can.
I could not find a way to do it either*. I just wanted your view on the situation if you were to say why the +1 caster level did not count if you were to say it did not count.
*I did not check UM though since I am not really trying to make it happen.
What if I get my effective caster level raised without a reference to casting spells like the bead does?
edit:or a certain school of magic, or a certain SLA, and without a phrase saying I can't go above my HD...etc
You may want this for your discussion. It's another magic item that gives +X caster level.
EDIT: In fact, it is just what you asked for. +1 caster level. Period. Doesn't even have to be keyed to a specific class. Just +1 caster level to all your classes.
Based on the number of feats, traits and class abilities which allow you to boost CL, but not higher than your actual level, I would say that the developers clearly have given this some thought.
It is possible that in the case of prayer beads they let something slip through, but I believe not.
Here is the wording for the karma prayer beads: "Wearer casts his spells at +4 caster level. Effect lasts 10 minutes."
Note it does not say "wearer has caster level boosted by +4 for ten minutes." It says "casts his spells at +4 caster level."
There is a HUGE difference between "casts his spells at +4 caster level" and "has a +4 to caster level."
Yes, in many cases the difference doesn't come into play.
But in the case of controlling a solar, I believe it does.
You may want this for your discussion. It's another magic item that gives +X caster level.What if I get my effective caster level raised without a reference to casting spells like the bead does?
edit:or a certain school of magic, or a certain SLA, and without a phrase saying I can't go above my HD...etc
It is NOT "another item" that gives +X caster level. It does appear, however, to be AN ITEM that gives a +1 to caster level.
This stone grants a +1 caster level and a –2 penalty to the wearer’s primary casting ability score...
This is not the same as prayer beads. This would allow a 21st level cleric to control a 22 HD solar, at least as written.
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I think there are two things at play.
1. I think the Devs were trying to give people some cool flexible options to be able to create/summon things that would be balanced for the level they were at, and unfortunately left the rules a bit vague.
2. Loophole seekers with weak DM's let some players exploit the hell out of it to the point they were bold enough to post on general messageboard that such ridiculous scenarios as summoning the Tarrasque is part of the rules.
I wish we could order more from number #1 with less from #2, but much like eating taco bell now that I'm in my mid 30's, choices have consequences, no matter how enjoyable it would be if they didn't.
You may want this for your discussion. It's another magic item that gives +X caster level.What if I get my effective caster level raised without a reference to casting spells like the bead does?
edit:or a certain school of magic, or a certain SLA, and without a phrase saying I can't go above my HD...etc
I knew I had seen something that let you do this somewhere. Thanks.
What about the link that Ashiel has just provided?
What about the link that Ashiel has just provided?
See my response above.
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You may want this for your discussion. It's another magic item that gives +X caster level.What if I get my effective caster level raised without a reference to casting spells like the bead does?
edit:or a certain school of magic, or a certain SLA, and without a phrase saying I can't go above my HD...etc
It is NOT "another item" that gives +X caster level. It does appear, however, to be AN ITEM that gives a +1 to caster level.
This is not the same as prayer beads. This would allow a 21st level cleric to control a 22 HD solar, at least as written.
I would still call this effective caster level, as it is still a temporary bonus only when wearing the item. My guess is that since it was a one liner rather than a full description, no one thought anyone would be asinine enough to try to rules lawyer it up more than that.
Guess they were wrong.
Do the rules have a difference between what a temporary and permanent caster level entail?
That was a serious question.
You may want this for your discussion. It's another magic item that gives +X caster level.What if I get my effective caster level raised without a reference to casting spells like the bead does?
edit:or a certain school of magic, or a certain SLA, and without a phrase saying I can't go above my HD...etc
It is NOT "another item" that gives +X caster level. It does appear, however, to be AN ITEM that gives a +1 to caster level.
This is not the same as prayer beads. This would allow a 21st level cleric to control a 22 HD solar, at least as written.
I would still call this effective caster level, as it is still a temporary bonus only when wearing the item. My guess is that since it was a one liner rather than a full description, no one thought anyone would be asinine enough to try to rules lawyer it up more than that.
Guess they were wrong.
Ciretose, I would respectfully disagree. I believe that this was intended to be "balanced" by the deduction in primary ability score. Whoever came up with this apparently did not realize that in certain situations caster level is far more important than a simple +1 bonus in a DC.
This says "caster level" and as written would give a 21st level cleric a caster level of 22.
Now, I sort of LIKE your distinction between actual and effective caster level, but I don't think that was the developers intent in this case. Although it likely should have been.
Do the rules have a difference between what a temporary and permanent caster level entail?
That was a serious question.
I have not found any such distinction. I'd love to see some reference to such a distinction.
1 caster level is not an issue 99% of the time, which is why I don't see it as an issue. If the caster level counted as a class level for the purpose of boosting all class features that would be different.
With the stone costing 25,000, and an unflawed ioun stone having a price of 30,000 I am inclined to beleive the prayer beads, with the way they are written only count for casting spells, and not for anything else.
I still think they beads count for planar ally and planar binding though since the creature is sent to you when you cast the spell, and that is when the beads are active.
1 caster level is not an issue 99% of the time, which is why I don't see it as an issue. If the caster level counted as a class level for the purpose of boosting all class features that would be different.
With the stone costing 25,000, and an unflawed ioun stone having a price of 30,000 I am inclined to beleive the prayer beads, with the way they are written only count for casting spells, and not for anything else.
I still think they beads count for planar ally and planar binding though since the creature is sent to you when you cast the spell, and that is when the beads are active.
It isn't a question of whether the beads are active. They are active for ten minutes. For those ten minutes they impact the casting of spells. At least as I see it, they do not impact the check of a solar against the actual caster level of the cleric to see if the cleric can control them.
Why do you think it would? How is that check of actual caster level part of "casting a spell?" The spell is instantaneous. The attempts to control the solar presumably would occur repeatedly over several minutes, far beyond the spell itself being cast.
So, in the wording of the gate spell it says:
"A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event."Does this mean that the solar is a unique being?
If not, with 22HD, will anyone ever be able to control it (assuming non-epic levels)?Also, as far as Adamantine Dragon should be concerned, the only condescending comments that I saw on THIS thread were made by him. I'm sure that since this was moved from another topic that the dead horse has already been kicked, but how am I (someone who has only seen this thread) to determine what was said by whom and how was it said. The cryptic remark about "some people" seemed directly antagonistic. Maybe there was cause, but since this is a new thread, how about a tabula rasa?
I suppose condescension is in the eye of the beholder galahad. Great name there by the way.
Nah, suggesting that I believe the earth is flat is not condescending at all. Not a bit.
1 caster level is not an issue 99% of the time, which is why I don't see it as an issue. If the caster level counted as a class level for the purpose of boosting all class features that would be different.
With the stone costing 25,000, and an unflawed ioun stone having a price of 30,000 I am inclined to beleive the prayer beads, with the way they are written only count for casting spells, and not for anything else.
I still think they beads count for planar ally and planar binding though since the creature is sent to you when you cast the spell, and that is when the beads are active.
Keep in mind that ioun stones cost double what they would as a normal item, and that those prayer beads do more than just give +4 CL for 10 minutes. In fact, they also allow you to "cast his choice of cure serious wounds, remove blindness/deafness, or remove disease" and "cast chaos hammer, holy smite, order's wrath, or unholy blight (Will DC 17 partial)".
This may also be useful.
"Each special bead can be used once per day, except for the bead of summons, which works only once and then becomes non-magical. The beads of blessing, smiting, and wind walking function as spell trigger items; the beads of karma and summons can be activated by any character capable of casting divine spells. The owner need not hold or wear the strand of prayer beads in any specific location, as long as he carries it somewhere on his person.The power of a special bead is lost if it is removed from the strand. Reduce the price of a strand of prayer beads that is missing one or more beads by the following amounts: bead of blessing –600 gp, bead of healing, bead of karma –20,000 gp, bead of smiting –16,800 gp, bead of summons –20,000 gp, bead of wind walking –46,800 gp. –9,000 gp,
@ Adamantine Dragon
Thanks, I rather like the name.
As to the "earth is flat" bit, You hadn't posted anything in this thread at that point. Admittedly Ashiel's comment WAS snarky, but, since this was a new thread at the time, it didn't have a frame of reference, so how could it have been directed at you?
I actually pointed out that it wasn't. :( *points up thread*
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You may want this for your discussion. It's another magic item that gives +X caster level.What if I get my effective caster level raised without a reference to casting spells like the bead does?
edit:or a certain school of magic, or a certain SLA, and without a phrase saying I can't go above my HD...etc
It is NOT "another item" that gives +X caster level. It does appear, however, to be AN ITEM that gives a +1 to caster level.
This is not the same as prayer beads. This would allow a 21st level cleric to control a 22 HD solar, at least as written.
I would still call this effective caster level, as it is still a temporary bonus only when wearing the item. My guess is that since it was a one liner rather than a full description, no one thought anyone would be asinine enough to try to rules lawyer it up more than that.
Guess they were wrong.
Ciretose, I would respectfully disagree. I believe that this was intended to be "balanced" by the deduction in primary ability score. Whoever came up with this apparently did not realize that in certain situations caster level is far more important than a simple +1 bonus in a DC.
This says "caster level" and as written would give a 21st level cleric a caster level of 22.
Now, I sort of LIKE your distinction between actual and effective caster level, but I don't think that was the developers intent in this case. Although it likely should have been.
We can disagree while agreeing.
I think it is absolutely ridiculous for anyone to argue the devs meant for gate to allow you to control a Solar or the Tarrasque.
I think anyone honestly arguing this was the RAI intended is out of their mind.
So can we get a Dev in here to either agree with me about the rule or close the loophole.
Win, win either way for me.
Gate? Tarrasque? What? ?_?
1 caster level is not an issue 99% of the time, which is why I don't see it as an issue. If the caster level counted as a class level for the purpose of boosting all class features that would be different.
With the stone costing 25,000, and an unflawed ioun stone having a price of 30,000 I am inclined to beleive the prayer beads, with the way they are written only count for casting spells, and not for anything else.
I still think they beads count for planar ally and planar binding though since the creature is sent to you when you cast the spell, and that is when the beads are active.
It isn't a question of whether the beads are active. They are active for ten minutes. For those ten minutes they impact the casting of spells. At least as I see it, they do not impact the check of a solar against the actual caster level of the cleric to see if the cleric can control them.
Why do you think it would? How is that check of actual caster level part of "casting a spell?" The spell is instantaneous. The attempts to control the solar presumably would occur repeatedly over several minutes, far beyond the spell itself being cast.
What I was saying is they they only count for the purpose of casting the spell. Before or after the spell is cast they don't do anything for you so while they may be active it is a non-issue.
Example:I cast a spell that allows me to breathe underwater. The spell is active out of water also, but it really is a nonfactor during that time.
You do have a point for the planar binding spells. I may have to rethink the issue.
We can disagree while agreeing.I think it is absolutely ridiculous for anyone to argue the devs meant for gate to allow you to control a Solar or the Tarrasque.
I think anyone honestly arguing this was the RAI intended is out of their mind.
So can we get a Dev in here to either agree with me about the rule or close the loophole.
Win, win either way for me.
I don't think the devs thought about controlling epic level monsters when they made such items. It is just a side effect of how the item works.
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Gate? Tarrasque? What? ?_?
By your logic, why not? We have the +4 from the prayer beads, +1 from the ioun stone, nothing says they don't stack so let's see where else we can get some caster level bonuses from...gate is conjuration, so conjuration specialist, throw on a moon circlet during a full moon, come on, there must be others, let's keep digging!
You want to let crazy in your game, let us follow it to it's logical conclusion.
You already said you can make a mini one with simulacrum, right? That is allowed in your game and who needs the extra hit points they lose with all of the other special abilities...
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I don't think the devs thought about controlling epic level monsters when they made such items. It is just a side effect of how the item works.
We can disagree while agreeing.I think it is absolutely ridiculous for anyone to argue the devs meant for gate to allow you to control a Solar or the Tarrasque.
I think anyone honestly arguing this was the RAI intended is out of their mind.
So can we get a Dev in here to either agree with me about the rule or close the loophole.
Win, win either way for me.
Like I said, if it is a correction or clarification makes no difference to me as long as we can agree it wasn't RAI.
And I think most of us do.
I don't think the devs thought about controlling epic level monsters when they made such items. It is just a side effect of how the item works.
We can disagree while agreeing.I think it is absolutely ridiculous for anyone to argue the devs meant for gate to allow you to control a Solar or the Tarrasque.
I think anyone honestly arguing this was the RAI intended is out of their mind.
So can we get a Dev in here to either agree with me about the rule or close the loophole.
Win, win either way for me.
Like I said, if it is a correction or clarification makes no difference to me as long as we can agree it wasn't RAI.
And I think most of us do.
I am going to respectfully disagree. The prayer beads I can get with you on because of the wording, but the caster level seems to be intentional that it counts for all purpose regarding caster(not class) level with regard to the ioun stone.
I did FAQ it though. Hopefully they pop in here so the orange ioun stone can be asked about specifically.
Seems cut and dry, they affect caster level for 10 minutes. After the 10 minutes are over, your creature turns on you as you do not have a caster level high enough to maintain it...
We are discussing the orange ioun stone now. I agree with him on the prayer beads.