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how does the spell effect the item. do they stack?
They stack. The robe provides an armor bonus. The spell provides an armor enhancement bonus.
sweet. now to get herolab to realise this!
They stack. The robe provides an armor bonus. The spell provides an armor enhancement bonus.They don't. The robes have an enhancement bonus to a +0 armor class item, the spell provides an enhancemnt bonus to +0 armor class . So Herolab is right. The spell wouldn't stack with the robes any more than it would stack with +5 platemail.
The description of the item says it provides a +5 armor bonus to ac, not a +5 enhancement bonus to armor. Where are you reading that it is an enhancement bonus?
That is circular logic. If the same mage did not own the robes, and was wearing non-magic robes, and instead had cast Mage Armor on himself, and walked into an anti-magic field, what you have is a mage wearing robes which give you Zero AC. This does not mean that Mage Armor provides an enhancement bonus.
I have no stake in the argument at all. I have no characters who own the robes of the archmagi, nor do I have an plans to. I am simply saying that RAW says it gives an armor bonus to ac, not an enhancement bonus to armor. These are distinct bonuses, and it is entirely possible that you are right about the intended rules, but if that is true, then the description of the item is a misprint. Furthermore, to take Herolab to be authoritative is incorrect, as it is not a paizo product.
and where is this written?
I agree with LazarX even though it does not say enchantment bonus in the text.
It does not state that it is an enhancement bonus to armor class. By your logic, you could just as easily say that it is obvious that they provide a deflection bonus to armor class, or a natural armor bonus to armor class. Where is it written that if the type of bonus is not specified, it defaults to an enhancement bonus?
I agree with LazarX even though it does not say enchantment bonus in the text.
That is fine. In that case, the argument should be "The description of the robes of the archmagi needs to be corrected, because the word enhancement has been omitted where it is obviously intended."
and where is this written?Then you tell me how to the robes of the archmagi give you an armor bonus. Tell me how they increase your armor class using a different mechanic than the one described. There is no dodge bonus, no insight bonus, no divine/profane bonus, tell me where you find a mechanic other than the relatively obvious one that I've laid out?
It could be argued that the robes are enchanted be as hard as steel, yet supple as cloth, thus behaving as a piece of armor without the associated penalties.
didn't it used to be a deflection bonus to ac back in 3.0/3.5? i can't remember and could be dead wrong.
When you look up the robe of the archmagi at d20srd.org (yes, this is a 3.5 source, so not authoritative) it links "armor bonus" and this is what it says:
Armor Bonus
An armor bonus applies to Armor Class and is granted by armor or by a spell or magical effect that mimics armor. Armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with natural armor bonuses) except other armor bonuses. An armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks, except for armor bonuses granted by force effects (such as the mage armor spell) which apply against incorporeal touch attacks, such as that of a shadow.
Note where it says "Armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to armor class". Once again, this is not authoritative, because it does not come from a paizo source, but the pathfinder version of the item is exactly the same as the 3.5 version in wording. I was not able to find a similar entry in the pathfinder srd for "armor bonus."
Some would say that 3.5 rules are authoritative for pathfinder where pathfinder's srd does not specifically change them: I am not one of those people. However, I think it gives a good intention of the Rules as Intended, at least until I can find a contradiction in the pathfinder srd's Rules as Written.
I don't have any resolution on the general case of applying enhancement bonuses to an armor bonus from a non-traditional source, but in this specific case, I don't think it's really an issue. Magic Vestments specifically targets "armor or shield touched". Despite providing an armor bonus, a Robe of the Archmagi probably doesn't qualify as a valid target of the spell as it occupies the 'body' magic item slot and not the 'armor' slot, doesn't require armor proficiency to wear, etc.
I marked this thread for FAQ.
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I thought the robes were an enhancement bonus also, but I looked to check first, and I noticed it said they provided an armor bonus.
So then I check the item crafting requirements. The spells used are mage armor and shield of faith which provide a deflection bonus to AC, and an armor bonus to AC.
The magic vestment spell provides an enhancement bonus to AC.
If they wanted to robes to be an enhancement bonus they would have used magic vestment as a creation requirement IMHO.
And where does it say it is an enhancement bonus? You are making the assumption that an item that is not traditional armor can not be enchanted with an armor bonus to ac, in the same way that the mundane quality of armor grants an armor bonus to ac, but I have yet to find a rule excluding this. You are making an assumption and presenting no rules to back up your assumption.
From the combat section of the book, underneath the heading "Armor Class":
Enhancement Bonuses: Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides.
I have just refuted your statement that "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ENHANCEMENT BONUS TO AC." Just because you write it in caps, does not make it true.
This is the most common mistake I see. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ENHANCEMENT BONUS TO AC. What you do have are ENHANCEMENTS TO THE ARMOR BONUS. examples being pluses given to magical armor and this is what the magical vestment spell provides. It's also why magic vestment does not stack with the +5 given to +5 plate. The magic vestment spell provides an enhancement to the armor bonus of the robes. The robes however are already enchanted with an enhancement to the armor bonus, so it's a case of the same exact type of bonus, therefore not stacking.I thought the robes were an enhancement bonus also, but I looked to check first, and I noticed it said they provided an armor bonus.
So then I check the item crafting requirements. The spells used are mage armor and shield of faith which provide a deflection bonus to AC, and an armor bonus to AC.The magic vestment spell provides an enhancement bonus to AC.
If they wanted to robes to be an enhancement bonus they would have used magic vestment as a creation requirement IMHO.
The magic vestment is made to affect armor or sheilds so it reads.
You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).
An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.
The reason it can not say "enhancement bonus to armor" specifically is because the spell is made to boost armor and shields.
edit:I should have worded it to say magic vestment provides a shield enhancement bonus or an armor enhancement bonus depending on what is being enhanced.
In any event the effect is the same.
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One thing to note is that +1 chain shirt provides a +5 armor bonus to AC. The robe States a final armorial bonus without stating the base and/or enhancement bonus, so it could be any combination of the 2 equal to 5. I would be more inclined to say the base is 0, seeing as it is normal clothing at its core
Armor provides an armor bonus to AC.
Magic armor may have an enhancment bonus in addition to the base armor bonus.
The enhancement bonus applies to your armor, increasing the armor bonus it provides. The enhancement bonus does not apply directly to your AC, it modifies the bonus provided by the armor.
Shields provide a shield bonus to AC.
Magic shields may have an enhancement bonus.
The enhancment bonus applies to the shield, increasing the shield bonus it provides.
If both provided an enhancement bonus directly to AC, then they would not stack.
Magic vestment can add an enhancement bonus to a suit of armor or a shield. If the suit of armor or shield already had an enhancement bonus (to armor or shield), the bonus from MV would overlap with it, not stack.
Magic vestment can be cast on regular clothing, counting it as armor with a 0 armor bonus to AC.
Robes of the Archmagi are not armor, nor a shield, nor regular clothing. They are not a valid target for Magic Vestment. If the robes could be targeted as regular clothing, the robes would count as armor with a 0 armor bonus to AC.
EDIT: Ninja'd by many. Blasted ninjas.
However, since the robes have an armor bonus, they are armor, thus they can be the target of magic vestment. Just because they do not have the normal penalties of mundane armor does not make them any less armor.
I never stated that there was an enhancement bonus to ac. I said there is an enhancement bonus to armor. Just like there is a natural armor bonus, and an enhancement bonus to natural armor: a character with one of the polymorph spells gets a natural armor bonus, and may also wear an amulet of natural armor. They stack with each other because one is a natural armor bonus, and the other is an enhancement bonus to natural armor. It is exactly the same.
Things other than armor can provide an armor bonus. The spell Mage Armor provides an armor bonus, but is not armor. Bracers of Armor provide an armor bonus but are not armor. The fact that Robes of the Archmagi provide an armor bonus is not a sufficient arguement that they are armor. If they were armor, wouldn't they be in the magic armor section ?
RAW I guess I was incorrect. RAI I was not so sure anyway it would work anyway.
Sorry FD, you may have to ask the GM.
Mage armor is not an item of any sort, and can't be a target for a spell which requires an item as its target. Bracers of armor are neither armor nor clothes, and can't be the target of the spell. A robe is clothes. Whether the word "regular" means clothes that have no enchantment on them in this context is rather spurious. If you want them to not stack, and you are a GM, then they don't stack, but under RAW, robes are a perfectly valid target for Magic Vestment, whether you call them clothes or armor.
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From the description of Bracers of Armor;
"They surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor."
I have always taken this to mean that the magic provided by the bracers, and other items which give a "armor bonus", operates exactly like physical armor for purposes of stacking. Which is also suggested by another section of the description;
"Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack."
Frankly, this seems very clear. Items and spells which grant an "armor bonus" are creating 'magical force armor'. Items and spells which grant an "enhancement bonus" are a different animal and can potentially stack with "armor bonus" effects just as they would with mundane physical armor.
CBDunkerson: The reason magic vestment doesn't work with bracers of armor is because bracers are not a valid target for magic vestment. You could cast it on the clothes the person with the bracers is wearing, but those clothes would have the enhancement bonus, not the bracers. Thus you would have one item with an armor bonus of 8 (assuming most expensive bracers) and no enhancement bonus to armor, and you would have another item with an armor bonus of 0 (the person's clothes) and an enhancement bonus of +5 (assuming maximum caster level). The reason it doesn't work is because you have two different items providing an armor bonus, and the higher bonus supersedes, it doesn't stack.
Robes of the archmagi are the person's clothes, thus a valid target for the spell. Some are suggesting that since they are a magic item, they are not "regular" clothes, but that is a tenuous argument.
Things other than armor can provide an armor bonus. The spell Mage Armor provides an armor bonus, but is not armor. Bracers of Armor provide an armor bonus but are not armor. The fact that Robes of the Archmagi provide an armor bonus is not a sufficient arguement that they are armor. If they were armor, wouldn't they be in the magic armor section ?That's not a relevant part of the question. Essentially the Robes are a wondrous item which has a an enchantment which provides an enhancement to the robes normal armor bonus of zero. The sum effect of which is to provide a total armor bonus of 5 to AC. The magic vestment spell by it's own description does the same thing.
Except you are inserting the word "enhancement" to the text of the item. Nowhere in the description of the item does it say it is an enhancement bonus, you are only assuming.
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Robes of the archmagi are the person's clothes, thus a valid target for the spell.
IF the Robes themselves have an "armor bonus" then yes, you could cast Magic Vestment on them to create an "enhancement bonus" which would stack as you describe. However, it is also possible that the Robes create 'force armor' like Bracers of Armor and the Mage Armor spell. If that were the case then casting Magic Vestment on the robes would create two different sets of 'armor'... the force effect with an "armor bonus" and the robes themselves, which have an "enhancement bonus" on top of the 0 "armor bonus" of the cloth. Given that the robes, like the bracers, list 'Mage Armor' as a source spell I think it would be the latter. Whether "armor" and "enhancement" bonuses on different sets stack (e.g. does clothing with an enhancement bonus to AC stack with mundane plate armor worn over it) is another question. I'd say yes, but it isn't as clear cut.
That's why I said these effects "potentially" stack. It still depends on the precise wording of the spells/effects and some interpretation. It is clearly possible to stack "armor" and "enhancement" bonuses... every suit of magic armor in the game does it. They are two different things. However, the specifics of the magic effects creating those bonuses still have to be considered.
Things other than armor can provide an armor bonus. The spell Mage Armor provides an armor bonus, but is not armor. Bracers of Armor provide an armor bonus but are not armor. The fact that Robes of the Archmagi provide an armor bonus is not a sufficient arguement that they are armor. If they were armor, wouldn't they be in the magic armor section ?That's not a relevant part of the question. Essentially the Robes are a wondrous item which has a an enchantment which provides an enhancement to the robes normal armor bonus of zero. The sum effect of which is to provide a total armor bonus of 5 to AC. The magic vestment spell by it's own description does the same thing.
That is incorrect. Magic items generally function like the spells they are based off of. The robe does not use any spell that provides an enhancement bonus. It used a spell that provides an armor bonus to AC. As I said before if they wanted an enhancement bonus they could have used magic vestment.
If the logic is that the two don't stack because the robes would have to have an armor bonus, which it does, then they do stack.
The issue however is that by RAW the robes are not an armor, shield, or "regular clothing".
There is nothing in the item's or spell's description to support it being an armor enhancement bonus.
@FuelDrop
So, it looks like the result of the thread is: the only thing preventing you from stacking magic vestment and robe of the archmagi is the definition of "regular clothes." It would take a very nit-picky GM to stop you from stacking the bonuses based on that, or one who has emotional reasons to prevent it from stacking.
No. Magic vestment does not stack with the armor bonus granted by robes of the archmagi. Come on, people; try using some common-freaking-sense instead of ravenously searching through the rules as written to find a loophole that only an amateur DM would let you exploit.
Master Arminas
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Yes, everyone is going to take your word for it because instead of panty-waist rules-based arguments, you adeptly use colorful half-insults to drive your point home. Well played, sir. Well played.
Mabven, if we don't use a modicum of common sense then you wind up with player's arguing all sorts of silly things: like being dead doesn't keep you from getting up and walking around.
Master Arminas
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It IS amazing how often the certainty of contributors to these forums stands in inverse proportion to the strength of the argument they present.
Mage Armor (and the Robes of the Archmagi, which use Mage Armor as a base) states that it provides an "armor bonus" to AC. Magic Vestment states that it provides an "enhancement bonus" to AC. The description of 'Armor Class' in chapter 8 of the Core rulebook lists "armor bonus" and "enhancement bonus" amongst the different types of bonuses which stack for purposes of determining AC.
Back in the v3 DMG they had handy table 8-1 for showing various examples of different bonus types. For the "armor" bonus type they cite 'Mage Armor' and 'Bracers of Armor' (which, like Robes of the Archmagi, list Mage Armor in the creation spells). For the "enhancement" bonus to AC they cite 'Magic Vestment' or +1 armor. Odd that they would write up a multi-page section on how only different bonus types stack and then cite these spells as applying different bonus types... when it is ever so obvious that they cannot possibly stack. :]
Different bonus types stack. This is very clear in the rules. Mage Armor (including the same effect in Bracers of Armor and Robes of the Archmagi) provides an "armor" bonus. Magic Vestment provides an "enhancement" bonus. These two bonus types are even specifically listed as stacking together in the Armor Class description. So where does this absolute certainty that they cannot possibly stack come from?
Hmm,
If Robes of the Archmagi count as "regular clothing" for the purposes of Magic Vestment, then it would also be treated as having a +0 armour bonus, again, for the purposes of Magic Vestment, as per the spell. As such, Magic Vestment would overlap, not stack, with the bonus provided by the Robes.
If they don't count as "regular clothing," they're not a valid target for Magic Vestment to begin with.
Either way, Magic Vestment doesn't stack.
It IS amazing how often the certainty of contributors to these forums stands in inverse proportion to the strength of the argument they present.
Mage Armor (and the Robes of the Archmagi, which use Mage Armor as a base) states that it provides an "armor bonus" to AC. Magic Vestment states that it provides an "enhancement bonus" to AC. The description of 'Armor Class' in chapter 8 of the Core rulebook lists "armor bonus" and "enhancement bonus" amongst the different types of bonuses which stack for purposes of determining AC.
Back in the v3 DMG they had handy table 8-1 for showing various examples of different bonus types. For the "armor" bonus type they cite 'Mage Armor' and 'Bracers of Armor' (which, like Robes of the Archmagi, list Mage Armor in the creation spells). For the "enhancement" bonus to AC they cite 'Magic Vestment' or +1 armor. Odd that they would write up a multi-page section on how only different bonus types stack and then cite these spells as applying different bonus types... when it is ever so obvious that they cannot possibly stack. :]
Different bonus types stack. This is very clear in the rules. Mage Armor (including the same effect in Bracers of Armor and Robes of the Archmagi) provides an "armor" bonus. Magic Vestment provides an "enhancement" bonus. These two bonus types are even specifically listed as stacking together in the Armor Class description. So where does this absolute certainty that they cannot possibly stack come from?
+1 to the Stack logic
but..Magic Vestment Targets "Armor or Shield Touched" not "Armor or Shield Bonus Touched". Does granting an armor or shield BONUS make it armor (Not the AC Bonus type, the big suit of metal, leather or other NON-Magical armors)? Mage Armor, Bracers, Robe of the Magi all grant an armor bonus but are they normal real world armor? (no) To me the spells target spells this out. And to me "Armor Bonus" is not Armor. So, to me no stack.
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Magic Vestment Targets "Armor or Shield Touched" not "Armor or Shield Bonus Touched". Does granting an armor or shield BONUS make it armor (Not the AC Bonus type, the big suit of metal, leather or other NON-Magical armors)? Mage Armor, Bracers, Robe of the Magi all grant an armor bonus but are they normal real world armor? (no) To me the spells target spells this out. And to me "Armor Bonus" is not Armor. So, to me no stack.
Right, the bonus types can stack, but there is uncertainty on the issue of whether these particular effects can be applied in conjunction. Some issues to consider;
Unlike 'Mage Armor' and 'Bracers of Armor' the 'Robes of the Archmagi' description does NOT state that this "armor" bonus is a force effect which blocks incorporeal creatures. This is likely a remnant of the v1 items, where 'Bracers of Defense' were described as creating a magical effect that protected the wearer like armor but 'Robes of the Archmagi' were described as themselves providing a bonus equivalent to a given AC. When each magic item was tied to an underlying spell in v3 (a change which caused as many problems as it solved IMO) 'Mage Armor' was the obvious choice for both... but does that define how they operate? If so then 'Robes of the Archmagi' should be effective against incorporeal creatures. If not then the robes themselves apparently provide an "armor" bonus which then logically should be capable of being combined with an "enhancement" bonus from 'Magic Vestment'.
The other 'logic path' I can think of which might lead to stacking bonuses in this case is what I outlined previously about two separate effects. You say above that 'armor bonus is not armor'... and thus logically the 'enhancement' effect from the Magic Vestment spell cannot be cast on the force armor effect from the Mage Armor. I agree with that, but let's look at a person wearing normal clothing who has both 'Mage Armor' and 'Magic Vestment' cast on them. The 'Mage Armor' creates a force effect around the person which provides an 'armor' bonus. The 'Magic Vestment' applies an 'enhancement' bonus to their '0 armor bonus' clothing. The two spells are operating on different things... the space around the person vs the clothing they are wearing. Yet they are providing bonuses to AC of different types. Wouldn't those bonuses then stack? The only thing I can see against it would be if there is some sort of combined 'armor + enhancement' bonus which cannot stack with either component... i.e. these things only stack if they are both applied on the same object / magical effect. That isn't stated as such anywhere that I can think of, but isn't an unreasonable interpretation. I'd let the two spells (and thus spell and/or magic object duplicating a spell effect) stack under this logic, but it isn't a given.