Stripped the Paladin of his Powers


Gamer Life General Discussion


1 person marked this as a favorite.

And I didn't tell the player why.

As it went, the party had a big battle with some orcs. When it was over, the had a wizard captured that the monk had pinned, tied up and gagged. During the wizard's interrogation, he smart mouthed the pc gunslinger. The gunslinger replied by whipping out his pistol and shooting the Orc in the shoulder. Not only did the paladin permit the torture, he laughed at it.

A few days later, in character, he tried to use his healing powers on an npc and found them absent.

The fun part to me is that the player is really into it. The cleric said, "my guess is you need to start acting more like a paladin," to which he replied, "I am the master of this keep and I will not take any of this from you." he immediately started playing up his pride and being really cocky.

Anyway, just thought I'd share.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The real question here is not why the Paladin lost his powers, but how was he ever one in the first place?


I think he used to be humble but becoming lord of this keep is going to his head.


if only everyone agreed on how paladins were supposed to act :P


4 people marked this as a favorite.

I think paladins should be brutal ruthless killers using all means to achieve a greater good. Enforcing the law to the letter with cold cuelty to wrong doers.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

Morain, what you are describing, enforcing the law to the letter with cold cuelty to wrong doers, is the job description for a Hellknight.


I think a paladin should behave like Sir Galahad, the Parfait Knight. Ironically I read about him in the 1970s long before I ever heard about D&D, and I found his Mary Sue perfection, intolerant attitude and lily white purity just as annoying as many players find the stereotypical paladin. But as much as I disliked him, I would never want an Arthurian epic without Galahad or a D&D world without priggish and shining paladins.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
cranewings wrote:


A few days later, in character, he tried to use his healing powers on an npc and found them absent.

Quite embarrassing. Pretty embarrassing, actually. Hilarious. Exspecially given his reaction.


RedPorcupine wrote:
cranewings wrote:


A few days later, in character, he tried to use his healing powers on an npc and found them absent.
Quite embarrassing. Pretty embarrassing, actually. Hilarious. Exspecially given his reaction.

Great roleplaying opportunities!


The good news is, he eventually has to sleep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v9BPxHBogs


You know, if everyone is okay with it I think that's great! Part of the fun of playing a Paladin (for me, anyway) is the tension of falling from grace. You're held to a higher standard; and in return, you can do things no mere fighter can. That goes hand in hand with the responsibility to use those powers for good.

That said, there has to be a chance for redemption; that's the other side of the narrative. If the player wants to redeem, anyway!

For just about the most disturbing paladin of all time, check out the comic Goblins.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Wooo a Paladin code thread, that's something new!

Shadow Lodge

I stripped my commanding officer's paladin of his powers after he condoned the murder and sacrifice of an NPC to allow the party to activate an infernal portal out of the dungeon.

*throws gauntlet*


cranewings wrote:
The fun part to me is that the player is really into it. The cleric said, "my guess is you need to start acting more like a paladin," to which he replied, "I am the master of this keep and I will not take any of this from you." he immediately started playing up his pride and being really cocky.

Sounds like everything is functioning according to specification.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You did VERY well. Good for him. Might teach both the player and the character a lesson. With great power comes great responsibility and all that jazz.

Reminds me of the campaing were playing right now. One of the paladins (there are 2) is a Holy Hunter, cocky, impulsive, agressive, headstrong and narcissitic to a fault. Shoot first, ask questions later. Repeatedly he shot while the others were trying to negotiate, because he did'nt like the idea of bargaining with evil aligned people or creatures. Or would draw attention to himself because "stealth is dishonorable" and endanger the whole group.

His latest antic? While negotiating with a Sahuagin priestess for repossession and eventual destruction of an evil artifact her order is tasked with guarding, she mentioned the fact that we slaughtered a bunch of her guards, and she would require a life in return. The rogue proposes to sacrifice part of our crew left on the surface (we all gasp in horror), the priestess refuses, saying they are innocent, and the paladin yells "THEN TAKE ME YOU HEATHENS" and goes to shoot. We manage to stop him, but the GM calls the dreaded "Ok, roll for initiative". We called it off at that point, on account of it being too late for a big fight.

Did I mention that we are underwater, surrounded by about 20 sahuagin guards, 1 captain and 3 priestesses? Oh, and 3 of us are ranged, me playing a gunslinger. The GM strongly proposed we roll up new characters, "just in case".

Seriously, I can't stand paladins and their damn codes, that and "impulsive" characters, this kind of character trait is always only an excuse to stir trouble. Could'nt the damn code be more "You seek to avoid confrontation whenever possible and must always act sensibly and calmly?"


Nothing wrong with playing against type if the player is happy to role with it. Just keep in mind the party now has an npc class character (a fallen paladin is essentially a warrior) when you are preparing your adventure because something tells me this paladin isnt interested in redemption, but then again, who knows right? Thats why we roleplay to develop a story, not follow a prewritten script.


Ha ha, I certainly imagine the cleric having a troll face when he said that to the paladin.

Did he take it further? Because he has his divine powers and the paladin does not. If the cleric doesn't get quickly taken out, the cleric could win the long battle. And then finish with such one liners as "thus endeth the lesson".

I liked the paladin in the past, but I've got to disagree with CaptainJandor, a code shouldn't allow the paladin to be unbalanced compared to another class, like the fighter. A strict code isn't much excuse for imbalance between the classes, but, I have known a dm that fell over in adoration and supplication at the pathfinder paladin. Presenting paladin npcs in the best light, and a group of them as capable of doing anything, even under-water fighting.

That is why I balance out the paladin.


Kolokotroni wrote:
Nothing wrong with playing against type if the player is happy to role with it. Just keep in mind the party now has an npc class character (a fallen paladin is essentially a warrior) when you are preparing your adventure because something tells me this paladin isnt interested in redemption, but then again, who knows right? Thats why we roleplay to develop a story, not follow a prewritten script.

Well if allowed, the paladin could with some training and time, go into warrior properly. Now before this is discounted, to balance this, you can have the warrior levels represent less than a level of other classes, so they get some levels to balance. They are indeed not actually on par with the other classes in what they get. So, get a free level every three. So a 3rd becomes a 4th warrior, a ten becomes a 13. They might scoff, I've known people to scoff at the warrior, but he gets more hit die and bab, very good and useful things. Tiny skill list but can push some things very high.

The paladin loses their faith and powers, and returns to the absolute basics of fighting. They aren't the specialised and extremely well trained fighter, they are taking their skills at war and working on them. My games do feature warriors and while one dm I know hates them (removed them from his world), I think they really have a place. Representing mercs, town guards, some roguish types--non specialist thugs, experienced adventurers whose skills have faded or old adventurers.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Next thing you know he becomes the "Paladin" of Asmodeus.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Ha ha, I certainly imagine the cleric having a troll face when he said that to the paladin.

Did he take it further? Because he has his divine powers and the paladin does not. If the cleric doesn't get quickly taken out, the cleric could win the long battle. And then finish with such one liners as "thus endeth the lesson".

I liked the paladin in the past, but I've got to disagree with CaptainJandor, a code shouldn't allow the paladin to be unbalanced compared to another class, like the fighter. A strict code isn't much excuse for imbalance between the classes, but, I have known a dm that fell over in adoration and supplication at the pathfinder paladin. Presenting paladin npcs in the best light, and a group of them as capable of doing anything, even under-water fighting.

That is why I balance out the paladin.

The Paladin isn't really unbalanced against the Fighter, Even while he's hogging the glory with the enemies he's designed to fight, the Fighter has this going for him.

Superior mobility with heavy armor. 30 foot move, and lessened armor check penalties are more important than you might think.

Superior competence with weapons. And a fighter can match what a Paladin does with divine bond by buying a weapon.

Greater melee competence. Did we mention the sheer number of bonus combat feats?

More battle options. A fighter can develop both melee and ranged capabilities to phenomenal levels. The Paladin generally has to settle for developing one and he has no chance of matching the fighter if the latter chooses to be more specialised.

Unfettered moral compass. The fighter has no abilities which are tied to code or alignment. Unlike the Paladin... or the Cavalier.


Ragnarok Aeon wrote:
Next thing you know he becomes the "Paladin" of Asmodeus.

I havent had a paladin of him, but I had a two clerics in a game convert after they lost their powers. Turns out travel and trickery are pretty cheesy.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

@3.5 Loyalist - Actually, I don't think the Paladin code should allow the Paladin to be stronger, balance wise, than a fighter; just that they should have different tricks. In my experience, the classes are close; when smiting, the paladin is pretty insane (against that target), and they are incredibly durable. Fighters are just really solid all the damn time. Current game I'm in has a paladin (me) and a fighter (shield build), and we are both pretty consistent in being able to contribute.

The code should be a roleplaying aid; the paladin is there for players who want to be something more than a warrior (not talking about class); they want to be the ideal of a holy knight, or a divine defender, a champion for the masses, etc.

In some cases, they want to be a PITA; but that's more a player thing than a paladin thing ;)

I like the idea of warriors, too; I'm not sure I'd have the paladin convert over to a warrior class, however (even with higher levels); maybe converting a level of paladin to a level of fighter each time he levels up? If the paladin doesn't want to redeem, anyway ;)


Goodo. That paladin is a long way from redemption.


I think that you approached it wrong.


If it was me I'd feel like you were intentionally messing with me and I'd be pissed particularly because you didn't tell me(Also killing evil people such as murderous orcs is okay and letting people do morally dubious things like torturing murderous orcs wouldn't be a falling issue if you asked me), on the other hand if he's okay with it then that's that I guess.

Personally I'd talk to him outside of the game and ask if he wants the character to seek redemption if not I'd let him retrain all his pally levels into fighter levels although no stat rearrangement and I'd ask him to keep any feats which weren't pretty much solely applicable to the pally to try to keep the verisimilitude insofar as it is possible.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Gnome, I know. Your attitude is why I'm so excited about this player. Normally players need a lot of hand holding and can't handle being sub optimal or taking a step back. This guy is more than happy to RP it and do so without crying. It is almost like I'm playing an rpg.

I have players I have to treat the way you are suggesting because they cry is a +1 sword they don't use anymore gets eaten by a rust monster, let alone losing class abilities for role playing.


cranewings wrote:

Gnome, I know. Your attitude is why I'm so excited about this player. Normally players need a lot of hand holding and can't handle being sub optimal or taking a step back. This guy is more than happy to RP it and do so without crying. It is almost like I'm playing an rpg.

I have players I have to treat the way you are suggesting because they cry is a +1 sword they don't use anymore gets eaten by a rust monster, let alone losing class abilities for role playing.

Reminds me of a player my Dad (The DM ;)) had. He had a -12 AC (This was 2nd Edition mind you) and the group had a run in with some vampire mages in 5th Age Krynn and moaned that his armor got drained to a measly -4.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Fyb wrote:

You did VERY well. Good for him. Might teach both the player and the character a lesson. With great power comes great responsibility and all that jazz.

Reminds me of the campaing were playing right now. One of the paladins (there are 2) is a Holy Hunter, cocky, impulsive, agressive, headstrong and narcissitic to a fault. Shoot first, ask questions later. Repeatedly he shot while the others were trying to negotiate, because he did'nt like the idea of bargaining with evil aligned people or creatures. Or would draw attention to himself because "stealth is dishonorable" and endanger the whole group.

His latest antic? While negotiating with a Sahuagin priestess for repossession and eventual destruction of an evil artifact her order is tasked with guarding, she mentioned the fact that we slaughtered a bunch of her guards, and she would require a life in return. The rogue proposes to sacrifice part of our crew left on the surface (we all gasp in horror), the priestess refuses, saying they are innocent, and the paladin yells "THEN TAKE ME YOU HEATHENS" and goes to shoot. We manage to stop him, but the GM calls the dreaded "Ok, roll for initiative". We called it off at that point, on account of it being too late for a big fight.

Did I mention that we are underwater, surrounded by about 20 sahuagin guards, 1 captain and 3 priestesses? Oh, and 3 of us are ranged, me playing a gunslinger. The GM strongly proposed we roll up new characters, "just in case".

Seriously, I can't stand paladins and their damn codes, that and "impulsive" characters, this kind of character trait is always only an excuse to stir trouble. Could'nt the damn code be more "You seek to avoid confrontation whenever possible and must always act sensibly and calmly?"

That is the kind of Lawfull Stupid attitude that all too many players adopt when playing Paladins. I'm not saying all players do this or even the majority, but in my book any amount is too many. This has tarnished my view of the class. It is just my bad luck that whenever I try to play a morally ambiguous character, somebody else brings a smite-makes-right PC to the table, and I spend the entire game being gimped from using my full range of slightly grey abilities because "Duddley-do-Right" doesn't like it.

Want to make the Paladin paranoid? Cast Bestow Curse on him to remove his paladin abilities one by one, and he'll think he's falling.


At least he hasn't yet gone cannibalistic paladin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Kony


cranewings wrote:
Gnome, I know. Your attitude is why I'm so excited about this player. Normally players need a lot of hand holding and can't handle being sub optimal or taking a step back. This guy is more than happy to RP it and do so without crying. It is almost like I'm playing an rpg.

It's always awesome to have players like that.


Le gasp~ I see a necromancer!

As a side note, I've seen a group who thinks that paladin is totally being good. That was the way they defined good, it was creepy to see them laughing at someone under compulsion or threaten to kill an evil npc becuase they don't like them and still think they're in the good spectrum.


Lol that was awesome ! Yeah we had a paladin in our group who threw a guy off a cliff yet he knew he was probably going to lose his spells and he did. But he quested for them and got them back boy did the DM make him have to bend over backwards to get them.

cranewings wrote:

And I didn't tell the player why.

As it went, the party had a big battle with some orcs. When it was over, the had a wizard captured that the monk had pinned, tied up and gagged. During the wizard's interrogation, he smart mouthed the pc gunslinger. The gunslinger replied by whipping out his pistol and shooting the Orc in the shoulder. Not only did the paladin permit the torture, he laughed at it.

A few days later, in character, he tried to use his healing powers on an npc and found them absent.

The fun part to me is that the player is really into it. The cleric said, "my guess is you need to start acting more like a paladin," to which he replied, "I am the master of this keep and I will not take any of this from you." he immediately started playing up his pride and being really cocky.

Anyway, just thought I'd share.


If the player is happy with it, then it must be fine.

You are lucky that the player is such a good sport about it. How much experience does the player have? If he is relatively new I might have withheld the spells and supernatural abilities for a number of days instead of doing a full-on fall from grace. Either a few days or until a suitably valorous act was performed.

Dark Archive

I think that Lawful Good doesn't mean Lawful Nice. I think it means the person will try to enforce law and empower the weak who follow the law.
He cares about the world but killing an Orc that is irredeemable is simply a necessary action.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I recall a game where we had a loud, boisterious knightly paladin with a HUGE ego. He always upheld the right and defended the weak, but he did so while bragging nonstop about how awesome he was. He regularly challenged monsters with a recitation of his glorious deeds and a warning of how doomed they were to oppose him.

The other characters hated this and longed to deflate him. The players were constantly begging the GM to strip his powers away, but both GM and player rightly pointed out that pride and vanity are NOT violations of the paladin code. He continued being a pompous, but effective warrior of virtue and never had to atone once. Great game.


Bravo Cranewings!!!! I have had similar situations occur before with players in my party. I have never dealt with this by doing in character. I love your delivery! I have a player in my campaign who is close to losing his paladinhood. I will handle it the same. I hope he doesn't react the same as your player...


cranewings wrote:

And I didn't tell the player why.

As it went, the party had a big battle with some orcs. When it was over, the had a wizard captured that the monk had pinned, tied up and gagged. During the wizard's interrogation, he smart mouthed the pc gunslinger. The gunslinger replied by whipping out his pistol and shooting the Orc in the shoulder. Not only did the paladin permit the torture, he laughed at it.

A few days later, in character, he tried to use his healing powers on an npc and found them absent.

The fun part to me is that the player is really into it. The cleric said, "my guess is you need to start acting more like a paladin," to which he replied, "I am the master of this keep and I will not take any of this from you." he immediately started playing up his pride and being really cocky.

Anyway, just thought I'd share.

It seems the character thinks paladins are dick fighters.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

THey can be dick fighters. Regardless of how self righteous they are being played, still not the strongest offensive melee class. If it comes down to it, other classes like the barb and fighter can really tear through them. On one hand, it depends on how heavily is the player dishing out the lawful stupid. On the other hand, it also depends on how stringent your dm is. I've come across some who require paladins to be played exactly as they deem fit with no wiggle room. There was one scenario where the party pally lost his divine powers after killing evil. The dm however, felt it was unlawful since the pally should have used subdue damage to bring the evil-doers to the authorities. Nearest town was about a couple of hours ride. The party could barely defeat them despite going all out. The righteous triumphed over the wicked, taking such a beating in the process but was punished for it. Truly a shameful display.


cranewings wrote:
Gnome, I know. Your attitude is why I'm so excited about this player. Normally players need a lot of hand holding and can't handle being sub optimal or taking a step back. This guy is more than happy to RP it and do so without crying. It is almost like I'm playing an rpg.

Really? Really.

Really?

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Years ago a paladin almost caused the total break up of a group I was playing with.

AD&D, we were going through Temple of Elemental evil adventure.
I was playing a cavilier from UA. One of the other players was playing a half orc thief, but all the players knew OOC that he was an evil assasin.

This half orc had been with the party since day 1, getting into tough spots with us and helping out. He never went against the party. We were running through the first level of the temple, a PC died. The player decided to bring in a paladin.

So this paladin shows up in Hommlet and says "I want to join you to help fight the evil in this area, but he has to go" pointing to the half orc.

The Paladin demanded we let him in the party but he would not join unless the half orc was out. I would guess because the paladin could see he was evil.

The rest of us did not like this new guy trying to tell us what to do, it was not pretty. Very heated talk in and out of character. The DM was so upset he ended up leaving the group and not gaming. The DM was also upset at me because he said since I was playing a cavilier, I should have automatically sided with the paladin.

Liberty's Edge

I am happy not to play a Paladin with the OP.

The OP is VERY lucky to have found a player who does not mind falling for things he might have believed allowed. And it has absolutely zero to do with skill at roleplaying.

BTW, the Paladin character should have known that the afore mentioned situation was contrary to his code. A Paladin character knows his code inside out, even when the GM did not bother clarifying it with the player.

Also I believe the OP should add houserules that make other classes lose their abilities, for even more RPG fun of course.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
CapeCodRPGer wrote:

Years ago a paladin almost caused the total break up of a group I was playing with.

AD&D, we were going through Temple of Elemental evil adventure.
I was playing a cavilier from UA. One of the other players was playing a half orc thief, but all the players knew OOC that he was an evil assasin.

This half orc had been with the party since day 1, getting into tough spots with us and helping out. He never went against the party. We were running through the first level of the temple, a PC died. The player decided to bring in a paladin.

So this paladin shows up in Hommlet and says "I want to join you to help fight the evil in this area, but he has to go" pointing to the half orc.

The Paladin demanded we let him in the party but he would not join unless the half orc was out. I would guess because the paladin could see he was evil.

The rest of us did not like this new guy trying to tell us what to do, it was not pretty. Very heated talk in and out of character. The DM was so upset he ended up leaving the group and not gaming. The DM was also upset at me because he said since I was playing a cavilier, I should have automatically sided with the paladin.

Another example of a player playing lawful stupid. Paladins not only smite evil but can also try to redeem them. Have them mend their evil ways and use their abilities for righteousness and all that. Such an opportunity can be great role-playing fun for the characters involved.

Furthermore, there isn't a hard and fast rule that lawfuls will necessarily side with each other. Other factors also come into play. Sounds like one of the players was playing a petulant character and you guys had an idiot for a gm.


CapeCodRPGer wrote:

Years ago a paladin almost caused the total break up of a group I was playing with.

AD&D, we were going through Temple of Elemental evil adventure.
I was playing a cavilier from UA. One of the other players was playing a half orc thief, but all the players knew OOC that he was an evil assasin.

This half orc had been with the party since day 1, getting into tough spots with us and helping out. He never went against the party. We were running through the first level of the temple, a PC died. The player decided to bring in a paladin.

So this paladin shows up in Hommlet and says "I want to join you to help fight the evil in this area, but he has to go" pointing to the half orc.

The Paladin demanded we let him in the party but he would not join unless the half orc was out. I would guess because the paladin could see he was evil.

The rest of us did not like this new guy trying to tell us what to do, it was not pretty. Very heated talk in and out of character. The DM was so upset he ended up leaving the group and not gaming. The DM was also upset at me because he said since I was playing a cavilier, I should have automatically sided with the paladin.

Nope, the new guy does not get to dictate who is in a group, that is not how it goes anywhere. Paladin was engaging in poor roleplaying, trying to take another person's fun and acted very badly when they couldn't get their way. I wouldn't have sided with the pally either, but might have been diplomatic enough to say "we are not hiring or firing at the moment, have a great day".

That can lead to plenty of conflict though, but if the party don't take a new char in, well, does the player realise he has made and tried to force something in that doesn't fit? Or does the dm say, no, you will take this char in no matter what foolish things he says and demands? It comes down to player control again and playing ball so everyone can have fun. Good story, quite unfortunate.


CapeCodRPGer wrote:

Years ago a paladin almost caused the total break up of a group I was playing with.

AD&D, we were going through Temple of Elemental evil adventure.
I was playing a cavilier from UA. One of the other players was playing a half orc thief, but all the players knew OOC that he was an evil assasin.

This half orc had been with the party since day 1, getting into tough spots with us and helping out. He never went against the party. We were running through the first level of the temple, a PC died. The player decided to bring in a paladin.

So this paladin shows up in Hommlet and says "I want to join you to help fight the evil in this area, but he has to go" pointing to the half orc.

The Paladin demanded we let him in the party but he would not join unless the half orc was out. I would guess because the paladin could see he was evil.

The rest of us did not like this new guy trying to tell us what to do, it was not pretty. Very heated talk in and out of character. The DM was so upset he ended up leaving the group and not gaming. The DM was also upset at me because he said since I was playing a cavilier, I should have automatically sided with the paladin.

Also, I would think a cavalier would side with their shield-brothers and shield-sisters, fellow heroes they have fought alongside, bled with and trust. Not the word of a random new guy claiming to be a paladin.


cranewings wrote:

And I didn't tell the player why.

(...)

A few days later, in character, he tried to use his healing powers on an npc and found them absent.

(...)

Anyway, just thought I'd share.

role-play aside, has any discussion happenend outside the game?

This can be a wonderful r-p opportunity as long as all players (not characters) are on to it. Perhaps make sure the concerned player knows he's not being cheated for personal reasons?

Community / Forums / Gamer Life / General Discussion / Stripped the Paladin of his Powers All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in General Discussion