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I've found the Monk to be the weakest class in PF, like it was in core 3E, and perhaps even worse off. Therefore, I am considering making all of these changes to make monks a more serious threat in melee, provide an avenue for them to combine their speed and multiattacking cornerstones, "only" need three attributes to be effective, and just in general to make some of their especially bad class features suck less. This is what I've got so far (I think higher levels could use some more stuff still):
- Qinggong Monk replaces Monk as the class (since there's really no reason for a Monk not to be one). Any Ki Power that grants a feat only costs 1 Ki (unless it cost 0 already) and lasts for a number of rounds equal to the Monk's Wisdom modifier each activation.
- Monks recieve full Base Attack Bonus, not just when using flurry of blows. The benefit of maneuver training is that Monks add their Wisdom modifier, in addition to strength, to their Combat Maneuver Bonus. The Monk's Flurry of Blows receives Improved TWF at level 6 and Greater TWF at level 11 to reflect the change in BAB.
- Bonus feats: A monk may select Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Mobility, Scorpion Style, and Throw Anything as bonus feats at 1st level, without needing to meet any of the requirements. At 6th level, she may also select Gorgon's Fist, Ki Throw, Snatch Arrows, Spring Attack, Tripping Twirl, and Wind Stance. At 10th level, she may also select Greater Blind-Fight, Improved Critical, Improved Ki Throw, Lightning Stance, Medusa's Wrath, and Whirlwind Attack. Bonus feat progression is the same: 1/2/6/10/14/18
- AC Bonus: A Monk gains a +1 bonus to AC, in addition to her Wisdom modifier, at level 2. This bonus increases by +1 every three levels thereafter (5th, 8th, etc...). This progression replaces the current one of +1 per 4 levels.
- Inner Strength: A monk may use her Wisdom modifer to determine bonus hit points for each Monk HD she posseses instead of Constitution. At 3rd level, the Monk has learned to fully harness her strength of will. She may now replace Constitution with Wisdom on Fortitude saves, and dies when her negative hit points total reaches her Wisdom score, rather than Constitution. If she suffers enough ability damage or drain to reduce her Constitution score to zero, the Monk remains in a catatonic state but does not die until a number of rounds equal to her wisdom score transpire, and only if her Constitution has not been brought back above 0 by then.
- A Monk's Fast Movement bonus applies to any mode of movement for which she has a listed speed (as it worked in 3E).
- Ki Strike: Ki Strike (Magic) gives an actual, continuous enhancement bonus to the Monk's unarmed strikes. It starts at +1 at level 4 and increases every four Monk levels thereafter, up to +5 at 20th level. When the Monk gains Ki Strike (Lawful), her unarmed strike gains the Axiomatic magical property. Ki Strike is a Supernatural ability.
- Monks, and only Monks, may take Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) as a feat once they meet the requirements.
- Maneuver Mastery: At level 5, a Monk can initiate any combat maneuver without provoking an Attack of Opportunity. Furthermore, she is treated as though she has all the "Improved" combat feats and their prerequisites for the purposes of qualifying for other feats. Note, she does not gain the +2 bonus an Improved maneuver feat grants unless she actually posseses it.
- Wholeness of Body only costs 1 ki point to use, and heals hit points equal to double the Monk's level as a standard action, or hit points equal to the Monk's level as a swift action, the benefit and associated action chosen by the Monk each time she uses this ability. At level 15, Wholeness of Body always heals twice the Monk's level in damage and can be used as an Immediate action. If used in this way, it can heal the damage as it happens and prevent the Monk from reaching the dying, dead, staggered, or unconscious conditions.
- Rushing Torrent: At level 7, a monk has perfected her flurrying technique and can now add her additional flurry of blows attacks to any attack action, instead of being limited to a full attack action. This includes, but is not limited to, readied actions, charges, and Spring Attacks. The monk simply chooses to apply the flurry attacks at the start of the action (taking the appropriate attack penalty to attack rolls). If used with Vital Strike or a similar feat, base weapon damage is only multiplied on the first attack.
- Perfect Self: In addition to the listed benefits, the Monk gains Fast Healing 5 and a Fly speed of 60 ft (plus Fast Movement) at Perfect maneuverability as constant benefits. The Monk may still be considered her original creature type (such as Humanoid) in order to receive beneficial spells or effects. Finally, the Monk gains Smite Chaos once per encounter, as the Paladin ability Smite Evil, except that it targets chaotic creatures, uses Wisdom modifer and Monk level instead of charisma and Paladin level, and deals double damage on the first hit to a chaotic outsider or a creature with the chaotic subtype.
I hear this "The monk is weak" a lot of the time. The way I look at it the monk is not weak, so much as it is hard to pinpoint the monk's role. Usually the complaint is made that the monk is not as good at fighting as the fighter.
Well that's true, the monk is not a fighter, he's a monk.
The monk is best considered as a kind of scout that can fill the rogue's shoes in scouting, rather than as a fighting class. He can fight, and so can a rogue, but if you use him just to fight you are missing the point.
A rogue is a support-fighter who does other stuff out-of-combat. The monk is the same.
That said, I would agree the monk would work better in combat with full BAB. I'm just not sure this would be balanced against other melee classes considering the monk's better saves and other abilities: monks are defensively very strong - they do not have the best hit points, but have comparable AC and excellent slaves. In that respect, unlike most classes, monks don't have many easily exploitable weaknesses in their defences.
If I did anything at all to the monk, I would increase his skill points to 6/level to increase the emphasis on out-of-combat ability.
I'm not overpowered, promise!
Try taking a look at this revision that I did: it fixes a lot of what you stated you wanted to fix, without going overboard (I think). monk
I hope you enjoy it.
Master Arminas
How to fix Monk:
Buy APG and UC (or just go to PRD if you're feeling cheap), problem more or less solved.
+1
For what it's worth, I would like to see many classes rebalanced. That means also buffing the Rogue, Fighter, and other martials, and nerfing casters, generally. I'm starting with Monk because again, IMO, it needs the most help. Even if these houserules were to make monk slightly stronger than other martials as they currently exist, that isn't necessarily a bad thing, as I plan to ALSO buff them (though to a smaller degree). But I don't think these changes make monk a better fighter than a fighter anyway.
And even with the non-core books (which gave buffs and new options to everyone, in many cases more useful boons, though UC I agree helped), monk still has fundamental problems. And seriously awful class features, the solution to which was aparently "let them throw 'em away for Ki Powers instead!" I'd rather just make the class features useful.
Anyway...
1) Monks are very very Multiple Ability Dependent (MAD). They need Str/Dex/Con/Wis, and they need all of them fairly high to make up for the BAB, low HD, and lack of armor. My houserules fix that by making con safe to leave at 10 or perhaps even lower.
2) Enhancing unarmed is grossly overpriced and built more for multiattacking monsters than monks, and solutions generally boil down to a) just use a weapon instead or b) rely on a party member to GMF or GMW you. I fix this by giving them an inherent, albeit slow progression, enhancement bonus.
3) AC is poor. I upped the progression slightly, though not by much. My friends think I should just make it 1/2 level, and they may be right.
4) The medium BAB is devastating. I give them full.
5) Despite being the martial arts class, monks suck at combat maneuvers and need a difficult Int 13 just to get many Greater feats, the equivalent of which they could get w/o needing ANY pre-reqs in 3.5 as there WERE NO "greater" feats. I fixed this by giving full BAB (faster qualification for greater's +6 BAB) and the level 5 ability, to sidestep Expertise entirely. They still need to invest the feats to master a maneuver well, but a mid level monk now can actually use any of them decently well.
6) Their offense currently relies on full attacking, but the frail hp and rest of the class seems to suggest skirmishing and provides high move speed. With Rushing Torrent, the monk can take his flurry benefits and apply them to whatever fighting approach they want.
I hear this "The monk is weak" a lot of the time. The way I look at it the monk is not weak, so much as it is hard to pinpoint the monk's role. Usually the complaint is made that the monk is not as good at fighting as the fighter.
Well that's true, the monk is not a fighter, he's a monk.
The monk is best considered as a kind of scout that can fill the rogue's shoes in scouting, rather than as a fighting class. He can fight, and so can a rogue, but if you use him just to fight you are missing the point.
A rogue is a support-fighter who does other stuff out-of-combat. The monk is the same.
That said, I would agree the monk would work better in combat with full BAB. I'm just not sure this would be balanced against other melee classes considering the monk's better saves and other abilities: monks are defensively very strong - they do not have the best hit points, but have comparable AC and excellent slaves. In that respect, unlike most classes, monks don't have many easily exploitable weaknesses in their defences.
If I did anything at all to the monk, I would increase his skill points to 6/level to increase the emphasis on out-of-combat ability.
Monk doesn't need to be AS good as the fighter at fighting. But he should be damn close. Neither has spellcasting or the massive skill points to excel at much else. At the least, Monk should be able to go toe to toe with an equal CR threat and either be able to win or at least hang long enough for the party to take it out (and I expect the same of Fighter or any other noncasting melee class). At present, he cannot do this, IMO.
Scouting is a poor role. Truly scouting shead is liable to get you killed, as the monsters will often have senses you simply don't like blindsense, tremorsense, and so forth. Alone, you'll be ripped to shreds. Practically, "scouting" is limited to 100-200 ft ahead of the party at most. Even then, casters just do it better with spells like arcane eye. I do not think "scout" is an important, large enough, nor viable enough role or sub-role to justify class.
It's funny you mention the rogue, I consider it to be the 2nd weakest class after monk. D&D unfortunately rewards specialization, both classes are too jack of all trades, master of none for their own good. And worse, casters can do the jack of all trades things better by using utility spells...
I disagree about monks defensively. Their touch AC is high and CMD reasonable. But their regular AC is inferior to someone wearing armor and/or using a shield. The saves? They get 3 good base saves. Paladin, Cleric, Ranger, Druid...they all get 2 good saves, it's not that much of a difference, really. PALADIN has good saves; he has 2 good base saves and adds his 1st or 2nd most important (depending) stat to all 3. Honestly, though, in 3E and PF, my best "defensive" characters have tended to either be: 1) Trip-monsters with reach weapons that simply don't allow enemies to actually REACH melee with them or 2) a caster or martial/caster using buff spells for mirror images, miss % and the like.
I suppose making monk more skilled is a way to go (be sure to expand the class skills list, too). My goal was to make monk potent in combat, though. That is closer to how it's currently portrayed and written. It's no more a "skilled" class than Barbarian or Cavalier is.
Try taking a look at this revision that I did: it fixes a lot of what you stated you wanted to fix, without going overboard (I think). monk
I hope you enjoy it.
Master Arminas
It's certainly a nicely done remake of the Monk class.
What I like:
- Unarmed Strike not based on size. I like the idea of halfling monks (even if it doesn't end up working so well), and if PF isn't going to let monk have Imp. Natural Attack anyway, may as well make it not size-dependent.
- Flurry with any simple weapon (I <3 longspear flurry)
- Flurry on any attack action. Similar to my rushing torrent, but available right away and slightly less versatile
- Ki Strike. Very similar to my changes.
- Catfall. It's just cool. Certainly better than Slow Fall.
- Abundant Step changes, though I think the ability is decent enough currently.
What I don't like:
- Doesn't address MAD at all
- Medium BAB; flurry doesn't even give full anymore! For many years, I insisted in 3E that monk could be balanced w/ medium BAB, but I've come to see that they really should just get full BAB.
- Bonus feats mostly unchanged / difficulty in acquiring Greater maneuver feats and other high level maneuver feats not addressed
- Perfect Self giving blanket immunity w/o recourse for beneficial mind-affecting effects like bardic music. Similar to how the current Perfect Self makes you immune to all person spells...including the Enlarge Person buff you want.
Overall, job well done, most of my complaints are simply things you didn't change/buff or left out, not many issues with the abilities you created themselves. Of course, you weren't trying to "go overboard." Since I think monks are the weakest class, "going overboard" compared to their current power level is kind of a design goal. :)
Monk is fine, IMO.
Most of your suggested changes just make it too good.
If you absolutely must change something, I could support making it a Full BAB class. Also possibly something that would allow adding Dex (instead of Str) to Unarmed/Monk Weapon Damage rolls. Other then that though...
Just look at the core abilities. This class is meant to be a mobile class (huge increase in base speed? dimension door-like ability? etc). And for those situations where it's better to stay where you're at? You gain (effectively) the entire base TWF feat tree for free.
Personally I think Monk is one of those classes that looks bad on paper but plays just fine, as long as you can accept the fact that you are a unique snowflake.
Monk doesn't need to be AS good as the fighter at fighting. But he should be damn close. Neither has spellcasting or the massive skill points to excel at much else. At the least, Monk should be able to go toe to toe with an equal CR threat and either be able to win or at least hang long enough for the party to take it out (and I expect the same of Fighter or any other noncasting melee class). At present, he cannot do this, IMO.
No, the FIGHTER is supposed to be best at fighting, end of. The monk has effectively full BAB anyway, he is pretty effective in combat if you take the emphasise away from damage and start looking at manoeuvres.
I have found the best combat role for the monk is to engage threats and tie them down until the damage-dealers can get around to splattering them. Battles are won by being "fastest with the mostest" and the monk has the mobility to get on site and tie down key enemy resources.
Scouting is a poor role. Truly scouting ahead is liable to get you killed, as the monsters will often have senses you simply don't like blindsense, tremorsense, and so forth. Alone, you'll be ripped to shreds. Practically, "scouting" is limited to 100-200 ft ahead of the party at most. Even then, casters just do it better with spells like arcane eye. I do not think "scout" is an important, large enough, nor viable enough role or sub-role to justify class.
That's very situational, though, and the monk's speed means they can get out of hock very easily. Their good defences mean that they will usually survive long enough to run away. The advance scout tripping the ambush is better than the entire party being ambushed, even if it doesn't look good from the scout's POV.
It's funny you mention the rogue, I consider it to be the 2nd weakest class after monk. D&D unfortunately rewards specialization, both classes are too jack of all trades, master of none for their own good. And worse, casters can do the jack of all trades things better by using utility spells...
Only if you have a very forgiving DM and memorize the correct spells to do the job. Invisibility is no replacement for actual stealth, and while I agree scrying-spells are good, you don't have an unlimited supply of them. Each arcane eye is one less black tentacles. Yes, your caster can fill in for your scout, but at the expense of doing other stuff he'd rather be doing. Same goes for just about anything, the point is just because he can be doing something does not mean he should be doing it.
Specialists are good at what they specialise in, but not so good at what they do not. Generalists are able to 'fill in' at many things, and are thus more useful overall, even if their success is less guaranteed.
The rogue is actually a specialist. Weak? Have you seen a TWF rogue in a flanking position? Death on two legs, basically. Rogues are poor at some things, but they are great at what they do, which is trap-springing.
I disagree about monks defensively. Their touch AC is high and CMD reasonable. But their regular AC is inferior to someone wearing armor and/or using a shield. The saves? They get 3 good base saves. Paladin, Cleric, Ranger, Druid...they all get 2 good saves, it's not that much of a difference, really. PALADIN has good saves; he has 2 good base saves and adds his 1st or 2nd most important (depending) stat to all 3. Honestly, though, in 3E and PF, my best "defensive" characters have tended to either be: 1) Trip-monsters with reach weapons that simply don't allow enemies to actually REACH melee with them or 2) a caster or martial/caster using buff spells for mirror images, miss % and the like.
That depends on your definition of defensive - I find that a monks AC generally keeps pace quite well with a fighter's. They are usually a shield behind them, but otherwise there's not much in it. Hit points tend to fall behind, but saves are overall way better, only a paladin is in the same class. How many times has your fighter been laid low by fear or charm magic?
Very often I find monks are foils to DM's plans. Whatever they plan to weaken, capture, or undermine the party tends to fail on the monk.
I suppose making monk more skilled is a way to go (be sure to expand the class skills list, too). My goal was to make monk potent in combat, though. That is closer to how it's currently portrayed and written. It's no more a "skilled" class than Barbarian or Cavalier is.
The monk IS potent in combat. They just are not good at charging in head-on, and slugging it out toe-to-toe. If the monk has or had a weakness in combat it was the lack of good weapons, and the lack of ways of enhancing their unarmed strikes. The change I would make is this: Allow ki-focus weapons to deliver the monk's unarmed damage instead of the weapon's base damage, maybe introduce a Greater ki-focus weapon-feature that does this.
I played a monk when PF first hit the shelves before the APG and UC (which believe me the UC makes the monk much much better), and thought the class was well balanced with the rest of my party members. My role in fighting, which this was more of a choice thing, was to use monk weapons with the disarm ability or trip ability and I chose the disarm feats and trip feats as I leveled. If you pick the right feats you can disarm pretty much anyone and trip a lot of foes as long as they don't have 4 legs. With fast movement you can really dictate a battle field. All in all with the step up feat I found the monk to be the perfect mage killer. You have good saves, can disarm them if they have a wand, and you can stun them into oblivion with their weak Fort save. I think everyone has this monk idea of their character being Bruce Lee, Jet Li, or Jackie Chan and they are just going to rip through 40 people at once punching people through walls.
Where I noticed the biggest dip in performance or usefullness as a monk, was fighting monsters, and by monsters I mean 4 legged nasty creatures that were just strong and ruthless. You can't disarm them as they have natural weapons, and they have huge CMD's against trip, and typically high Fort saves against stun. So your only option was to get close and try to hit them. Which at low levels sucks, but at 8th level you can fire off 5 attacks if you use a ki point doing d10 damage. Even if you don't have much of a strength bonus, you can still shell out some decent damage. Not as much as a raging barbarian with a two handed weapon mind you, but you can hold your own.
I think with the combination of the APG and UC the monk is no longer one that is in need of 'fixing'. Many of the archetypes available focus the monk and keep its abilities from being so scattered. And the feat list of UC pretty much reads like a love letter to the monk.
Very powerful.
After UC, there are no more issues with monks. Hell I've always liked them. But after the style feats come in, and the extra monk weapons. It feels good to play the monk.
I don't think the monk needs the full BAB. They get way too many other cool sticks and defences. Also with flurry its full BAB and CMB.
MONKS ARE FRICKIGN RAD NUFF SAID, THEY DON'T NEED FIXING YOU JUST NEED TO WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND THERE SWEET DRAGON PUNCHING, BATHROBE WEARING, ALWAYS ARMED INTENSITY.!!!!
+1How to fix Monk:
Buy APG and UC (or just go to PRD if you're feeling cheap), problem more or less solved.
+2?
Monks are pretty darn awesome as it is. With that said, I never understood why they need to be lawful, why they don't have d10 hit dice, full BAB and proficiency with all martial weapons (with the ability top flurry with these weapons). At the very least, the martial artist archetype should have these as class features. I never cared for the mysticism of the class, and would be happy to do away with most, if not all of the goofy mystic and ki powers. (Why on earth can they speak with every living creature? How can they fall at terminal velocity and survive?)
Try taking a look at this revision that I did: it fixes a lot of what you stated you wanted to fix, without going overboard (I think). monk
I hope you enjoy it.
Master Arminas
It's certainly a nicely done remake of the Monk class.
What I like:
- Unarmed Strike not based on size. I like the idea of halfling monks (even if it doesn't end up working so well), and if PF isn't going to let monk have Imp. Natural Attack anyway, may as well make it not size-dependent.
- Flurry with any simple weapon (I <3 longspear flurry)
- Flurry on any attack action. Similar to my rushing torrent, but available right away and slightly less versatile
- Ki Strike. Very similar to my changes.
- Catfall. It's just cool. Certainly better than Slow Fall.
- Abundant Step changes, though I think the ability is decent enough currently.What I don't like:
- Doesn't address MAD at all
- Medium BAB; flurry doesn't even give full anymore! For many years, I insisted in 3E that monk could be balanced w/ medium BAB, but I've come to see that they really should just get full BAB.
- Bonus feats mostly unchanged / difficulty in acquiring Greater maneuver feats and other high level maneuver feats not addressed
- Perfect Self giving blanket immunity w/o recourse for beneficial mind-affecting effects like bardic music. Similar to how the current Perfect Self makes you immune to all person spells...including the Enlarge Person buff you want.Overall, job well done, most of my complaints are simply things you didn't change/buff or left out, not many issues with the abilities you created themselves. Of course, you weren't trying to "go overboard." Since I think monks are the weakest class, "going overboard" compared to their current power level is kind of a design goal. :)
Monks have always, and always shall be MAD. It is part and parcel of the class. However, it can be worked around. All that it requires is a player who isn't dedicated to having the highest possible Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom score, and is willing to settle for 'good enough'.
Medium BAB is what the monk has always been, since 1st edition. It is quite playable with a lower attack bonus than the purely martial classes. Yes, the monk is a martial class, but is more of a mystic martial hybrid. That is one reason I changed Flurry in the manner that I did; really, if the cleric, rogue, and magus are fine with medium BAB, then why isn't the monk?
Several bonus feats were added. As for the greater versions, it is relatively easy for the monk to pick those up. Yes, he needs to a 13 Int for Combat Expertise, but he can do it. Unless you are trying to grapple a dragon or trip a fighter-type of your level, the monk is well able to carry out the combat maneuvers he needs.
Perhaps it is just me, but I always read immunity as immunity to hostile effects. No, I didn't mean that when the monk gets Perfect Self he no longer gets a morale bonus from bardic music, or cannot be effected by a potion of heroism. In 3.5, mind blank gave total immunity; did it also block those effects?
Master Arminas